Guest guest Posted March 6, 2001 Report Share Posted March 6, 2001 I may be going out on the proverbial limb here, but I have been thinking a bit about this disease, particularly what I called the Type 1 cea (blushing, flushing, always-red face). Central and Northern Europeans basically have white skin. The presence and use of skin coloring agents, particularly rouge to redden the cheeks, probably goes back for centuries. Is it possible that for a long time people considered rosy cheeks and a pink face attractive? Paleness is always considered a sign of ill-health, so there might have been a tendency to appreciate the rosy-faced person and give them a courtship advantage over a pale-faced one; that they would be more successful in attracting a mate who also shared this " healthy " trait? A result of this might be that whatever genes that provide a propensity for this condition may have actually been given an advantage to appear among offspring in this region. Redness among men may have been associated with being strong and able to withstand outdoor weather. Whiteness as a positive attribute gained popularity in rural Southern America among the wealthy plantation families as a sign that they didn't have to work in the fields. But when most peasants in Europe did not afford such luxury, the color may have been associated with hardiness and vigor. Just some thoughts on this, seeing as so many people develop this flushing so early. I just spotted this condition emerging in a Dutch girl I saw a week ago, and she was only about ten years old. Times change. Are we saddled with some genetic propensity that has outlived its purpose? Just some thoughts. Ray Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 6, 2001 Report Share Posted March 6, 2001 ray, your theory makes sense! could we also be the result of " survival of the fittest " ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 6, 2001 Report Share Posted March 6, 2001 Interesting theory, Ray. There probably is some validity there, but of course it would be next to impossible to prove. Too bad that ruddy look is not all the rage as it may well have been once! Beth hypothesis on heredity > I may be going out on the proverbial limb here, but I have been > thinking a bit about this disease, particularly what I called the > Type 1 cea (blushing, flushing, always-red face). > > Central and Northern Europeans basically have white skin. The > presence and use of skin coloring agents, particularly rouge to > redden the cheeks, probably goes back for centuries. > > Is it possible that for a long time people considered rosy cheeks and > a pink face attractive? Paleness is always considered a sign of > ill-health, so there might have been a tendency to appreciate the > rosy-faced person and give them a courtship advantage over a > pale-faced one; that they would be more successful in attracting a > mate who also shared this " healthy " trait? A result of this might be > that whatever genes that provide a propensity for this condition may > have actually been given an advantage to appear among offspring in > this region. Redness among men may have been associated with being > strong and able to withstand outdoor weather. > > Whiteness as a positive attribute gained popularity in rural Southern > America among the wealthy plantation families as a sign that they > didn't have to work in the fields. But when most peasants in Europe > did not afford such luxury, the color may have been associated with > hardiness and vigor. > > Just some thoughts on this, seeing as so many people develop this > flushing so early. I just spotted this condition emerging in a Dutch > girl I saw a week ago, and she was only about ten years old. > > Times change. Are we saddled with some genetic propensity that has > outlived its purpose? > > Just some thoughts. > > Ray > > ----------------------------------------------------------------- > Please read the list highlights thoroughly before posting to the whole group. See http://rosacea.ii.net/toc.html > > When replying, please delete all text at the end of your email that isn't necessary for your message. > > To leave the list send an email to rosacea-support-unsubscribe > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 6, 2001 Report Share Posted March 6, 2001 It's a horrible thought, but you probably have something there. But what about people of other continents? Someone earlier commented that the Chinese don't seem to have rosacea, while someone else then countered saying they do, indeed, and he's seen many. I wonder how is in regard to rosacea. I mention this b/c I saw one of those shows that talk about a movie before you see the movie and the subject was Liz. At the time she auditioned for National Velvet a judge called out and said " wipe the makeup from that child's face " . Only it turned out not to be makeup. I don't know how true this is, and how much a Hollywood fairy tale. But there it is. Pink Cat > I may be going out on the proverbial limb here, but I have been > thinking a bit about this disease, particularly what I called the > Type 1 cea (blushing, flushing, always-red face). > > Central and Northern Europeans basically have white skin. The > presence and use of skin coloring agents, particularly rouge to > redden the cheeks, probably goes back for centuries. > > Is it possible that for a long time people considered rosy cheeks and > a pink face attractive?... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 6, 2001 Report Share Posted March 6, 2001 Gosh, yes. When I was little I wanted to live on an island where bad skin was beautiful. I thought I'd be their queen. Pathetic, wot? pc > Interesting theory, Ray. There probably is some validity > there, but of course it would be next to impossible to > prove. Too bad that ruddy look is not all the rage as it > may well have been once! > > Beth > > hypothesis on heredity > > > > I may be going out on the proverbial limb here, but I have been > > thinking a bit about this disease, particularly what I called the > > Type 1 cea (blushing, flushing, always-red face). > > > > Central and Northern Europeans basically have white skin. The > > presence and use of skin coloring agents, particularly rouge to > > redden the cheeks, probably goes back for centuries. > > > > Is it possible that for a long time people considered rosy cheeks and > > a pink face attractive? Paleness is always considered a sign of > > ill-health, so there might have been a tendency to appreciate the > > rosy-faced person and give them a courtship advantage over a > > pale-faced one; that they would be more successful in attracting a > > mate who also shared this " healthy " trait? A result of this might be > > that whatever genes that provide a propensity for this condition may > > have actually been given an advantage to appear among offspring in > > this region. Redness among men may have been associated with being > > strong and able to withstand outdoor weather. > > > > Whiteness as a positive attribute gained popularity in rural Southern > > America among the wealthy plantation families as a sign that they > > didn't have to work in the fields. But when most peasants in Europe > > did not afford such luxury, the color may have been associated with > > hardiness and vigor. > > > > Just some thoughts on this, seeing as so many people develop this > > flushing so early. I just spotted this condition emerging in a Dutch > > girl I saw a week ago, and she was only about ten years old. > > > > Times change. Are we saddled with some genetic propensity that has > > outlived its purpose? > > > > Just some thoughts. > > > > Ray > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------- > > Please read the list highlights thoroughly before posting to the whole > group. See http://rosacea.ii.net/toc.html > > > > When replying, please delete all text at the end of your email that isn't > necessary for your message. > > > > To leave the list send an email to > rosacea-support-unsubscribe@y... > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 6, 2001 Report Share Posted March 6, 2001 I guess anything is possible but considering that lifespans were much shorter in the past, it would have been difficult for natural selection to act on something which typically hadn't yet manifested itself. Assuming the average age is, as you suggested from the survey results, is around 39, that is well past the typical child-bearing age for women, particularly for starting a family. For natural selection to be a factor, rosacea would have had to show up much earlier for the majority of sufferers. And then, it would never have been able to progress to stage 3 or type 2 as you have coined it, because no matter how we cut it, when our ancestors noses grew and the papules and pustules reined, the rosy cheeks wouldn't have made up for it in terms of the mating process (I'm thankful that most humans are concerned about personality in addition to appearance). I also don't think that a face looking sunburned (as mine does when I flush) would be mistaken for being healthy and robust. Although I have no scientific proof, it would also be interesting to see if rosacea cases are more severe when they start prior to the 3rd decade. It may just be a function of the people attracted to this group, but I have been left with the impression that those individuals who had it younger also have it worse (this may have been a function of slower diagnosis leading to progression rather than slowing of the disease). And historically, there were phases when people dusted their faces and hair with white powder (can't remember the period but I think it was around Mozart's time - can you tell I studied biology and not history?). Just my two cents. Cathie > > Central and Northern Europeans basically have white skin. The > presence and use of skin coloring agents, particularly rouge to > redden the cheeks, probably goes back for centuries. > > Is it possible that for a long time people considered rosy cheeks and > a pink face attractive?... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 6, 2001 Report Share Posted March 6, 2001 BUT, don't you remember that they also put a very prominent red dot on each cheek? Pink Cat > > > Central and Northern Europeans basically have white skin. The > > presence and use of skin coloring agents, particularly rouge to > > redden the cheeks, probably goes back for centuries. > > > > Is it possible that for a long time people considered rosy cheeks and > > a pink face attractive?... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 6, 2001 Report Share Posted March 6, 2001 ---( level-1 text from K and C. T = 06.03.2001 on 16:51 -0500 )--- >I guess anything is possible but considering that lifespans were much >shorter in the past, it would have been difficult for natural selection to >act on something which typically hadn't yet manifested itself. Assuming the >average age is, as you suggested from the survey results, is around 39, that >is well past the typical child-bearing age for women, particularly for >starting a family. For natural selection to be a factor, rosacea would have >had to show up much earlier for the majority of sufferers. The average lifespan in former times was less, but typical lifespan was not necessarily less. The average was brought down considerably by high infant mortality. Also by maternal post-partum mortality. Even though " full-blown " rosacea may not appear until 35-40, many here report that they *always* had rosy complexions. Many people lived into their 50's and 60's -- look at lists of famous people (artists, composers, writers -- often associated with poverty and hard lives. A significant number of them lived to be much older than Mozart. Ray Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 6, 2001 Report Share Posted March 6, 2001 My 'rosy complexion' was so strong when I came from England to US at age of 8 that one of my classmates 'reported' to my teacher that I was using rouge. I always thought that the rosy cheeks of north European children were due to climate. I have spent much time in north China and Mongolia and find the same rosy cheeks on many children and adults -- and have heard (but don't 'know') that rosecea is also a problem in those zones. Weisling wrote: > ---( level-1 text from K and C. T = 06.03.2001 on 16:51 -0500 )--- > > >I guess anything is possible but considering that lifespans were much > >shorter in the past, it would have been difficult for natural selection to > >act on something which typically hadn't yet manifested itself. Assuming the > >average age is, as you suggested from the survey results, is around 39, that > >is well past the typical child-bearing age for women, particularly for > >starting a family. For natural selection to be a factor, rosacea would have > >had to show up much earlier for the majority of sufferers. > > The average lifespan in former times was less, but typical lifespan > was not necessarily less. The average was brought down considerably > by high infant mortality. Also by maternal post-partum mortality. > Even though " full-blown " rosacea may not appear until 35-40, many > here report that they *always* had rosy complexions. Many people > lived into their 50's and 60's -- look at lists of famous people > (artists, composers, writers -- often associated with poverty and > hard lives. A significant number of them lived to be much older than > Mozart. > > Ray > > ----------------------------------------------------------------- > Please read the list highlights thoroughly before posting to the whole group. See http://rosacea.ii.net/toc.html > > When replying, please delete all text at the end of your email that isn't necessary for your message. > > To leave the list send an email to rosacea-support-unsubscribe > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 6, 2001 Report Share Posted March 6, 2001 It was me who saw Chinese-Americans on the bus with very red complexions. San Francisco has a large Asian population. Some had bumps along with the redness. I'm not a doctor who can diagnose these things, but some of it really looks like rosacea. Also, we have had Asian posters on the list. The other day, I saw a young Hispanic woman at the store ( I think she was Mestizo) who had really a red nose and cheeks with scores of broken blood vessels on her face. She could have had that type of lupus that effects the skin only. Also, I use myself as an example because I have an olive complexion but have had really red cheeks all my life. (I used to be asked sometimes if I had rouge on as a child.) I believe I've seen articles on the link between rosacea and h. pylori in Turkish and Greek dermatological journals. If rosacea didn't exist there, why would they study it? I'm really looking forward to reading Dr. Nase's book to see if he any input on this subject. Take care! Matija > > > ---( level-1 text from K and C. T = 06.03.2001 on 16:51 -0500 )-- - > > > > >I guess anything is possible but considering that lifespans were much > > >shorter in the past, it would have been difficult for natural selection to > > >act on something which typically hadn't yet manifested itself. Assuming the > > >average age is, as you suggested from the survey results, is around 39, that > > >is well past the typical child-bearing age for women, particularly for > > >starting a family. For natural selection to be a factor, rosacea would have > > >had to show up much earlier for the majority of sufferers. > > > > The average lifespan in former times was less, but typical lifespan > > was not necessarily less. The average was brought down considerably > > by high infant mortality. Also by maternal post-partum mortality. > > Even though " full-blown " rosacea may not appear until 35-40, many > > here report that they *always* had rosy complexions. Many people > > lived into their 50's and 60's -- look at lists of famous people > > (artists, composers, writers -- often associated with poverty and > > hard lives. A significant number of them lived to be much older than > > Mozart. > > > > Ray > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------- > > Please read the list highlights thoroughly before posting to the whole group. See http://rosacea.ii.net/toc.html > > > > When replying, please delete all text at the end of your email that isn't necessary for your message. > > > > To leave the list send an email to rosacea-support- unsubscribe@y... > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 6, 2001 Report Share Posted March 6, 2001 Being a person of colour I'm proof that mere heredity is not the cause of cea. After all, I'm only one-eigth of north european descent. I've had doctors tell me that some Asians and Indians also suffer from cea. > I may be going out on the proverbial limb here, but I have been > thinking a bit about this disease, particularly what I called the > Type 1 cea (blushing, flushing, always-red face). > > Central and Northern Europeans basically have white skin. The > presence and use of skin coloring agents, particularly rouge to > redden the cheeks, probably goes back for centuries. > > Is it possible that for a long time people considered rosy cheeks and > a pink face attractive? Paleness is always considered a sign of > ill-health, so there might have been a tendency to appreciate the > rosy-faced person and give them a courtship advantage over a > pale-faced one; that they would be more successful in attracting a > mate who also shared this " healthy " trait? A result of this might be > that whatever genes that provide a propensity for this condition may > have actually been given an advantage to appear among offspring in > this region. Redness among men may have been associated with being > strong and able to withstand outdoor weather. > > Whiteness as a positive attribute gained popularity in rural Southern > America among the wealthy plantation families as a sign that they > didn't have to work in the fields. But when most peasants in Europe > did not afford such luxury, the color may have been associated with > hardiness and vigor. > > Just some thoughts on this, seeing as so many people develop this > flushing so early. I just spotted this condition emerging in a Dutch > girl I saw a week ago, and she was only about ten years old. > > Times change. Are we saddled with some genetic propensity that has > outlived its purpose? > > Just some thoughts. > > Ray Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 7, 2001 Report Share Posted March 7, 2001 ---( level-1 text from fluttergirl@.... T = 07.03.2001 on 04:58 +0000 )--- >Being a person of colour I'm proof that mere heredity is not the >cause of cea. After all, I'm only one-eigth of north european >descent. I've had doctors tell me that some Asians and Indians also >suffer from cea. Wait a moment. Nobody said it was the *cause*. I hypothesized that a propensity to develop it may have been given an advantage in another era because redness may have been associated with a hale and hearty disposition. That is quite different. In addition, one cannot draw conclusions about northern Asians affecting this hypothesis unless one does sociological research into whether or not redness in *those* cultures may also have had a similar association or value. Perhaps northern Chinese also felt that a pink face was healthful. And we cannot also assume that everyone who only has a rosy complexion will get rosacea. It might be that some people have a rosy complexion and never develop rosacea, while others get rosacea without ever having any such condition. There is not necessarily a link. If rosacea is a degenerative disease, then it may show up in all peoples who have a decline in health brought about by modern diet and lifestyle, including American Indians, and even Africans. With darker skin tone it may not be noticed by redness, but other symptoms may indeed be present; the higher melanin pigment would cover up the redness. Ray Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 7, 2001 Report Share Posted March 7, 2001 Ray, I know all of this is pure speculation, but couldn't all ethnicities mentioned have some members who have the gene that can predispose a person to develop rosacea regardless of the time they live in? Life being extremely stressful and food/water being unhealthy and/or scarce has been the condition of humankind throughout all time. The cradle of civilization is supposed to be in Kenya. Who knows, the gene mutation that caused rosacea may have first shown up there and spread around the world as people migrated. Just a thought... Take care! Matija If rosacea is a degenerative disease, then it may show up in > all peoples who have a decline in health brought about by modern diet > and lifestyle, including American Indians, and even Africans. With > darker skin tone it may not be noticed by redness, but other symptoms > may indeed be present; the higher melanin pigment would cover up the > redness. > > Ray Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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