Preschool update

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 9/6/2006 9:50:12 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,

tndarcher@... writes:

I thought that the law said that they had to provide literacy and numeracy

from ages 3 and up.

You may be dealing with state and not federal law here. That kind of stuff

can vary a lot. It can also vary based on where you are and the funding and

resources that are available. Some areas are better equipped and take early

intervention more seriously.

As far as I know, preschool services are intended to get a kid ready for

Kindergarten. Just having a disability isn't enough to get help, you have to

have measurable delays -- at least where we are. It is often harder to get EI

and pre-school services than it is to get certain services once the child is

school age.

For instance, speech services aren't going to be offered unless there is a

certain level of delay. Yet, in kindergarten, our district strong-armed us

into allowing Ian to have speech services because he said " earf " and not

" earth "

It was the only thing he mispronounced and his speech and language skills

were all at or above grade level. They offered it because they had/have a

speech therapist (not an SLP) on staff and it didn't cost them anything. But it

did allow them to get reimbursement for her salary based on the number of

students she was serving. If she'd had a full load of students, they would never

have offered it to Ian.

Best -- Jill

[Guest guest]

Yes, this is how it works for Elias. He has to be evaluated each year in

order to

qualify for services. He is way behind in many areas, although he tested

ahead on

the cognitive skills assessment (or whatever they call it - the test of

basic academic

ability), so I was surprised that he qualified for a SEIT. I think he got

approved for that

because it was clear that he needed some kind of classroom assistance, and

it

was before he had been officially diagnosed with hearing loss, so that was

what

the district came up with.

Our kindergarten has its own speech therapist, and they send home a paper

explaining that kids can get speech therapy without qualifying through CPE.

However, i have been warned that in our district, it is much easier to get

CPSE (preschool)

services, and that when the kids transition to CPE, they often lose

services. We will see.

Elias came through the Early Intervention system. It had nothing to do with

hearing loss. He was referred by Sloan-Kettering, where he was being

treated,

because they wanted him to have PT and they don't have a pediatric therapist

on staff.

Bonnie

>

>

> As far as I know, preschool services are intended to get a kid ready for

> Kindergarten. Just having a disability isn't enough to get help, you have

> to

> have measurable delays -- at least where we are. It is often harder to get

> EI

> and pre-school services than it is to get certain services once the child

> is

> school age.

>

>

[Guest guest]

I think each state may vary, but I also remember somehwere learning that it

depends on the makeup of the class. So if the class is composed of children

with no disabilities..the ratio can be higher. If a class has a mixture, it

depends on the what makes up that mixture.

I ws just cleaning out some " stuff " and found the guidelines for Illinios. It

was printed in 2002, so I went online to see if anything had changed....no. So

here is Illinois's section on class ratios.

Debbie

Section 226.730 Case Load/Class Size

A regular education classroom is one that is composed of students of whom at

least 70 percent are without identified special education eligibility, that

utilizes the general curriculum, that is taught by an instructor certified for

regular education, and that is not designated as a general remedial classroom.

In the formation of special education classes, consideration shall be given to

the age of the students, the nature and severity of their disability, and the

degree of intervention necessary.

a) A student shall be considered to require " instructional services " when he

or she receives special education instruction for 50 percent of the school day

or more. Classes and services for such students shall be subject to the

limitations of this subsection (a).

1) Early childhood instructional classes or services shall have a maximum

ratio of one qualified teacher to five students in attendance at any given time;

total enrollment shall be limited according to the needs of the students for

individualized programming.

2) Instructional classes or services for students who have either a

severe/profound disability or multiple disabilities as defined in Section 226.75

of this Part shall have a maximum enrollment of five students.

3) Instructional classes or services for children whose primary disability

is a severe visual, auditory, physical, speech or language impairment, autism,

traumatic brain injury, or an emotional disturbance or behavioral disorder shall

have a maximum enrollment of eight students.

4) Instructional classes or services for children whose primary disability

is a specific learning disability or that serve children who have different

disabilities shall have a maximum enrollment of ten students. Instructional

programs that group students who have different disabilities shall be formulated

only under the following circumstances:

A) The students are grouped in relation to a common educational need; or

The program can be completely individualized and the teacher is

qualified to plan and provide an appropriate educational program for each

student in the group.

5) Instructional classes or services designed for children whose primary

disability is moderate visual or auditory impairment shall have a maximum

enrollment of twelve students.

6) Instructional classes or services for children whose primary disability

is mild/moderate mental impairment shall have a maximum enrollment of 12

students at the primary level and 15 students at the intermediate, middle,

junior high, and secondary levels.

7) A school district may increase the enrollment in an instructional class

or service by a maximum of two students in response to unique circumstances

which occur during the school year. Such additions may be made only when the

educational needs of all students who would be enrolled in the expanded program

can be adequately and appropriately met. Alternatively, the district may

increase the enrollment in an instructional class or service by a maximum of

five students when a full-time, noncertified assistant is provided.

The Archers tndarcher@...> wrote:

Ok, I just found out that the public preschool they are offering has a 2:17

ratio in the 3 year old class.

Is there anything about class size in the laws?

Tawnya

Some men see things as they are and ask why. Others dream things that never were

and ask why not. G.B Shaw

---------------------------------

Get your own web address for just $1.99/1st yr. We'll help. Yahoo! Small

Business.

[Guest guest]

I guess I don't understand why they need to reopen the IEP just to have a

hearing assesment (or whatever it may be called). You're not asking for

services just yet, you're looking for an assesment of need. However I have to

agree with Jill and I would look for that type of assesment outside of the

school setting (as long as you can afford it). Since I'm not near your area, I

can't suggest anywhere, but I think Jill gave you a few. Then you can then take

that assesment and share it with your school district, or you can ask for a

school assesment already knowing what they should come back with.

Debbie

Bonnie MacKellar bkmackellar@...> wrote:

If Westchester has so many specialists available, how come I can't find

any resources specific to hearing loss here?

That is a real sticking point for me right now. I can't get anyone at BOCES

to talk to me because I am a parent, not a school district. But I can't get

the district to look into services unless I reopen the IEP. And I don't want

to do that until I have actually spoken to hearing loss specialists, so I

can

find out what wuold be appropriate for Elias. I would be happy to pay

privately for an evaluation and recommendations, but no one will talk

to me because I am not in the school district!!!

Right now we badly need a hearing loss specialist of some type, to

just come in occassionally and talk to the preschool teachers (and me)

about effective ways to use the FM system, strategies for getting

Elias to listen effectively, etc. The speech therapist has been filling

that role to some extent, and she does have some experience with

FM systems and hearing aids, but she is more focused on getting

Elias to talk understandably than she is on getting him to understand

what he hears.

In general, the districts won't deal with anybody in NYC. The big

agencies, like Theracare, have offices in both NYC and Westchester,

but no one will cross that border with the Bronx, 5 miles away.

It was a huge problem when Elias was in EI, and in treatment at

MSKCC. He was spending 10 hours a day sitting in clinic doing

nothing but waiting. He could have done his PT sessions in clinic - they

had the equipment, and the interest in him getting the PT. But no,

the therapist couldn't cross into Manhattan. And his EI coordinator

was based in Manhattan, because he was also on the Medicaid program

for medically fragile children. It was so messy.

And before we all start wishing we lived in Manhattan, I have heard

horror stories from parents I know who live there and need to

get services through the NYC school system.

I think finding specialists in hearing loss is hard everywhere...

Bonnie

>

> I

> Bonnie,

>

> Perhaps the differences are in part because we're up in Dutchess County

> and

> also not dealing with EI or pre-school stuff. We have far fewer resources

> available around here. For instance, going into NYC to see a specialist or

> even

> bring in a consultant from there is like trying to bring in someone from

> Russia. Ian's doctors are all in Westchester or NYC. Our district acts as

> though

> we're traveling to Siberia when I talk about driving to Mt. Kisco to see

> our

> audiologist. But there just aren't people locally who have a clue about

> Ian's

> issues or appropriate experiences that qualify them to be his doctors. The

>

> best place locally is the Communications Disorders Center at St Francis in

>

> Poughkeepsie. And that doesn't even come close to Montefiore, never mind

> Columbia.

>

> It's like comparing NYC to the Little House on the Prairie sometimes.

> Which

> is funny because we're so close to Westchester and so many world class

> doctors and services.

>

> Up here, the private school experiences I've helped with have all been for

>

> school age kids, not pre-school. EI and transitioning is a whole new realm

> for

> me and I know it has different rules. One of the other Listen-Up moms,

> (Cheryl -- who lived only 10 minutes from me but moved upstate recently)

> dealt

> with the local EI and then the transition process here in Dutchess and

> needed to

> bring in the School in order to get her daughter what she needed. It

>

> was not easy or smooth and they acted as though asking for reasonable

> services

> was demanding the moon.

>

> As far as I know, there is no integrated pre-school close to me, just that

>

> program run by St Francis which is considered an integrated program and is

> 40+

> minutes away. And the few D/HOH specialists around are available through

> BOCES, unless you go about finding your own who have worked with one of

> the deaf

> schools like Fanwood, a state school in/near White Plains or the Lexington

>

> school, a private one in NYC. There just aren't as many choice once you

> cross

> north of I-84.

>

> There is only one school locally with enough enrollment to support having

> its own D/HOH programs and I think they still hire in for all their D/HOH

> needs

> from BOCES as well.

>

> At one point I located a group of parents who met in Fishkill to receive

> ASL

> instruction and other support services. But it was a closed group, only

> for

> parents of the residential students at that specific deaf school. (They

> politely but firmly told me I was unwelcome.) The local state resource

> (Taconic

> Resources) is quite limited in what they will offer, and again, your child

> has

> to meet some benchmarks of delay or need before they will do more than

> answer

> a few questions over the phone. For them, Ian isn't " deaf enough " yet to

> warrant their support.

>

> I think Westchester is not quite the norm for NY as a state because it has

>

> so many resources close together as well as more organized public health

> services. I wish it were the norm! Plus it is so close to NYC and so much

> of its

> population works in the city. We simply expected quality health care when

> we

> lived there and we got it. The benefits of being a well-populated (and in

> parts very wealthy) county.

>

> Moving up here was an eye opener! It's so close, yet so far -- cliche but

> true.

>

> Best -- Jill

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 9/9/2006 5:38:43 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,

beat4girl@... writes:

I am not sure what the mix is for HI kids.

Elaine

I don't think the ratio is based on the type of disability but on the

classification itself. It's the mix of classified kids against non-classified.

You

could conceivably have deaf kids in the room who aren't classified and they

would be added into the ratio as non-classified students.

Best -- Jill

[Guest guest]

>

> I think each state may vary, but I also remember somehwere learning

that it depends on the makeup of the class. So if the class is

composed of children with no disabilities..the ratio can be higher. If

a class has a mixture, it depends on the what makes up that mixture.

> >>>

I know here a CCR class mix is 12 kids to one teacher and one aid but a

BED class is 8 kids to one teacher and one aid so it does depend on the

needs of the kids. I am not sure what the mix is for HI kids.

Elaine

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 9/9/2006 7:40:03 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,

bkmackellar@... writes:

So we need to reopen the IEP to 1) get him classified as " hearing loss " 2)

put the FM system and a couple of other classroom accomodations into the IEP

3) get consult time for his teachers with a TOD

He currently gets speech therapy because he is definitely speech delayed. He

also has a SEIT and PT and OT.

I don't know, maybe I am just crazy, maybe he doesn't need this at all? The

fact that I can't figure out how to justify it to the school district maybe

means that this isn't something he needs? I keep thinking that maybe if I

get him evaluated by some kind of hearing loss specialist - not an

audiologist but someone who knows about the educational needs of kids who

don't hear well - that I could find out if he needs something different from

what he has, or if he is OK.

I don't think a hearing test is what is needed. There are other assessments

that can and are done to support the use of the FMs, the services of a TOD and

all that you are needing and want to request. Those assessments can be about

his language acquisition, how much he has missed in learning language and

how to use it, not just how to pronounce it. You can also have his abilities in

the classroom, in a listening environment, assessed. Ian was tested/assessed

on his lip reading abilities, on his ability to take a nonsense word and

replace it with a real one that fit into context -- he did really with that.

TODs have a whole different perspective on these things, it is so much more

than just a hearing screening or word recognition test in a booth test. I

think you re looking for the kind of assessment Cheryl got for her daughter at

the e School.

And you're not crazy. I'd say your instincts are GREAT. Don't get too

crazed, you'll find what you need and where you can take Bobby. You can also

request that this kind of testing be done by the school. And if it is not

sufficient, or you question the results, then you can request an IEE

(Independent

Educational (?) Evaluation) which means NOT their personnel, but instead

outside

(Independent) experts do the evaluating, at the district's expense.

I don't know the names of the tests given to children Bobby's age.

Unfortunately my direct experience (and records) with this stuff is from the

second

half of elementary school. But if we can get a hold of exactly what is used by

e and place like that, then you can request that your district has those

assessments done.

I'm sure we can find that info. Someone here on Listen-Up may be able to

give it you quite easily. If not, it can be found. Parental patience and

stubbornness will win. (grin)

Best -- Jill

[Guest guest]

He doesn't need a hearing assessment. He has already had his hearing tested

and tested (and he wears hearing aids). I want him to get at least some

services from a TOD - if nothing else, a consult with his current teachers,

so they have some strategies to use. But to get that I need to demonstrate

need. And means an evaluation from someone (what kind of specialist, I have

no clue). Right now, his IEP doesn't even have him classified as " hearing

loss " . And at the meeting, they refused to write his FM system into the IEP.

They said that was an individual decision by the teacher - a " teaching

strategy " - and didn't belong (we own the FM system so we weren't asking for

them to buy one)

So we need to reopen the IEP to 1) get him classified as " hearing loss " 2)

put the FM system and a couple of other classroom accomodations into the IEP

3) get consult time for his teachers with a TOD

He currently gets speech therapy because he is definitely speech delayed. He

also has a SEIT and PT and OT.

I don't know, maybe I am just crazy, maybe he doesn't need this at all? The

fact that I can't figure out how to justify it to the school district maybe

means that this isn't something he needs? I keep thinking that maybe if I

get him evaluated by some kind of hearing loss specialist - not an

audiologist but someone who knows about the educational needs of kids who

don't hear well - that I could find out if he needs something different from

what he has, or if he is OK.

>

> I guess I don't understand why they need to reopen the IEP just to have

> a hearing assesment (or whatever it may be called). You're not asking for

> services just yet, you're looking for an assesment of need. However I have

> to agree with Jill and I would look for that type of assesment outside of

> the school setting (as long as you can afford it). Since I'm not near your

> area, I can't suggest anywhere, but I think Jill gave you a few. Then you

> can then take that assesment and share it with your school district, or you

> can ask for a school assesment already knowing what they should come back

> with.

>

> Debbie

>

>

[Guest guest]

For the record...

Our son is HI. He will be 12yo next month, and just

started Middle School (6th grade). He was diagnosed

with profound/severe impairment at the age of five

months, got his first hearing aids at the age of 11

months, and has worn them ever since, with

replacements every 3-5 years.

Educationally, he is completely mainstreamed. With

hearing aids, he can hear " normally. " We did teach him

ASL between the time he was diagnosed with HI and the

age of 2yo, so he was able to communicate his needs

and wishes at a very early age (even earlier than his

normal-hearing sister!), but we had settled on normal,

oral English as his primary means of communication

before he started Kindergarten, since that worked well

for everyone concerned.

By the time he started Kindergarten, he was hearing

things at normal levels, as long as he had his hearing

aids. We enrolled him in the same school and classes

that his Hearing sister had attended, and we haven't

had any problems related to hearing since then. He

receives speech therapy, and has support in Language

Arts and Math, but there is no FM system, cued

English, SEE, or anything else. We do make sure that

his teachers realize that he needs extra help in

making sure he understands instructions--especially if

one of the aids isn't working correctly, and because

he also has ADHD. However, as long as he has both

hearing aids in place and working, he hears normally

as far as we can tell, and we haven't seen any reason

to try to complicate things more than that.

He doesn't get all A's in his classes, but he also has

ADHD, Asperger's Syndrome, and diagnosed learning

disabilities in language and math to cope with.

However, he has done well enough that he has never

repeated a grade, and seems perfectly on track in all

areas, as long as he receives a little extra support

in his weak areas.

Kiminy

--- Bonnie MacKellar bkmackellar@...> wrote:

> I don't know, maybe I am just crazy, maybe he

> doesn't need this at all? The

> fact that I can't figure out how to justify it to

> the school district maybe

> means that this isn't something he needs? I keep

> thinking that maybe if I

> get him evaluated by some kind of hearing loss

> specialist - not an

> audiologist but someone who knows about the

> educational needs of kids who

> don't hear well - that I could find out if he needs

> something different from

> what he has, or if he is OK.

__________________________________________________

[Guest guest]

I'm sorry. I may have the terminology wrong. When went from EI to the

preschool she was assesed by several different people (service providers). One

was a TOD. She is the one that assesed 's need for HI services. Maybe

this is considered a needs assesment instead of a hearing assesment.

You are correct though, you need to have the hearing loss included on his IEP.

Clearly with just his audiograms, you could have this included (at least I think

so). There is plenty of research that shows even a mild loss can have a

negative affect on the education of a child. Since I'm not up on multiple

disabilities I'm not sure how those are handled. I know that 's primary

disability is listed as hearing loss. I would think you need to determine the

biggest issue and list that as primary.

As to using the FM... it is not a teaching strategy ( I have never heard that

one before). It is a way to enhance his ability to hear in the classroom. It

allows him equal access to communication in the classroom, just as an

interpreter allows communication access to those who use ASL.

I think that all children with a hearing loss can benefit from having the

services of a TOD. Whether its for pull-out or for consultation they can

provide the specialized insight of how to work with hearing impared children.

Special ed teachers cannot provide the same types of services. Jill explains

this best, so if you're curious you could look in past archives or maybe ask

her.

Good luck!

Debbie, mom to , 7, moderate SNHL and ,4, hearing

Some men see things as they are and ask why. Others dream things that never were

and ask why not. G.B Shaw

---------------------------------

Yahoo! Messenger with Voice. Make PC-to-Phone Calls to the US (and 30+

countries) for 2¢/min or less.

[Guest guest]

> I don't think the ratio is based on the type of disability but on

the

> classification itself.>>

Ah, I thought we were talking about self contained classes. Jakes was

in a cross category class last year and they could have more in that

class but the mix had to be a certain way. There could not be too may

behavioral emotional disabled in the class (which is actually his

primary due to anxiety/OCD) for instance. My bipolar son was in a

strict BED class and they had less.

E

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 9/9/2006 11:42:45 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,

beat4girl@... writes:

Ah, I thought we were talking about self contained classes. Jakes was

in a cross category class last year and they could have more in that

class but the mix had to be a certain way. There could not be too may

behavioral emotional disabled in the class (which is actually his

primary due to anxiety/OCD) for instance. My bipolar son was in a

strict BED class and they had less.

E

LOL ... oh dear, if the discussion was self-contained classrooms, then I

missed that point and I apologize! When it is that type of setting, I am sure

there are additional rules that take into consideration the kinds of

disabilities, the support needed for each and the number of aides/teachers that

need to

be there. A whole different set of considerations.

Sorry if I misinterpreted things!

Jill

[Guest guest]

Hi Bonnie,

I don't know how they combine evaluations/services in order to

accommodate all of the needs that Elias has, but they need to. I know

that there are really specific gaps that occur as a result of hearing

loss and those need to be identified and addressed. Certainly, as a

minimum, the FM system needs to be included in the IEP. (A teaching

strategy, when there is a hearing loss?) Give me a break.

You must have a local (same state) school of the deaf, or perhaps a

local oral school. Someone at one of those places shold be able to

help you get an educational evaluation done by someone that works with

hard of hearing kids. I know it is harder to pinpoint when you have

dual (or triple) exceptionalities, but it sounds like they are not

addressing his needs at all, as related to his hearing loss.

Sorry, but my 3 year old is terring the place apart. Gott run!

[Guest guest]

He doesn't need a hearing assessment. He has already had his hearing tested

and tested (and he wears hearing aids). I want him to get at least some

services from a TOD - if nothing else, a consult with his current teachers,

so they have some strategies to use. But to get that I need to demonstrate

need. And means an evaluation from someone (what kind of specialist, I have

no clue).

> Right now, his IEP doesn't even have him classified as " hearing

loss " . <

JD's was like that till he was in the 4th Grade. I told them I would refuse

to sign another IEP unless he was. His audiologist had to fill out a couple

of forms, but the next time I had to sign an IEP, he was so classified - and

it also opened the door to a few other things for him, like the director of

the Regional Day School for the Deaf attending his IEP and whenever someone

started to say no to something, she would say yes and her answer ruled (like

having a duplicate set of text books at home.

Here is more on that:

http://www.listen-up.org/rights/advocate.htm#cat

http://www.listen-up.org/rights/advocate.htm#12

> And at the meeting, they refused to write his FM system into the IEP.

They said that was an individual decision by the teacher - a " teaching

strategy " - and didn't belong (we own the FM system so we weren't asking for

them to buy one)<

Same thing here - you would have thought that in 12 years, things would have

gotten better for our kids....sigh. Here's a couple of ideas:

http://www.listen-up.org/rights/advocate.htm#5

http://www.listen-up.org/rights/advocate.htm#at

> 3) get consult time for his teachers with a TOD<

Have the teachers requested this in an IEP? Once you get him classified,

this one should follow rather easily.

> I keep thinking that maybe if I

get him evaluated by some kind of hearing loss specialist - not an

audiologist but someone who knows about the educational needs of kids who

don't hear well - that I could find out if he needs something different from

what he has, or if he is OK.<

This is what the assessment the school gives you should tell you (but rarely

does).

From the old IDEA (I wish the Implementing Regulations to the 2004 IDEA

would be issued so I can use those instead):

a.. §300.300 Provision of FAPE.

(ii) The services and placement needed by each child with a disability

to receive FAPE must be based on the child's unique needs and not on the

child's disability.

a.. §300.532 Evaluation procedures.

(h) In evaluating each child with a disability under §§300.531-300.536,

the evaluation is sufficiently comprehensive to identify all of the child's

special education and related services needs, whether or not commonly linked

to the disability category in which the child has been classified.

> I guess I don't understand why they need to reopen the IEP just to

> have a hearing assesment (or whatever it may be called).

That's one of the steps in developing an IEP appropriate for your

child's needs.

>> And you're not crazy. I'd say your instincts are GREAT.<<

If there's one thing I've learned in the almost 20 years of working with

JD, it's to go with your gut. I've always been sorry when I didn't.

-Kay