Re: Terrified that there is more than Apraxia

[Guest guest]

Hi, I think this is my 2nd email to you. Regarding pretend play, my twins

didn't really have to play pretend play, they got each other around all the

time. When my twins were in 1st grade and I was working with one twin over

homework, then that was the only time I saw the other twin keeping busy pretend

play with his action figures waiting for me to be done with his brothers

homework so they can play with each other again..... Hope my experience help

you...JOYA

[Guest guest]

Don't get upset over this...My son @ 3y.o. was not playing to his SLP's

liking either and even when I took him to the dev. pediatrician at 3y.o.,

she expressed concern, but told me to play pretend with him as much as

possible. I went out and bought him a doll, a doll-house, pretend foods,

puppets...and did just that. I found that the more he obtained Speech, the

more the pretend play manifested itself. Now at 4.5 y.o., he is constantly

pretend playing and having these pretend conversations back and forth with

his toys...so, it's the language factor...(in my case). My son is

intelligible only about 50% of the time..he speaks 4-6 word phrases and

cannot yet dialogue but he is pretend playing. So, give it a chance. I

think professionals today are labeling children too quickly with Autism &

PDD and not taking into account other factors like their immaturity and

lack of Speech into play. Don't be SCARED! You would know as his mother if

there was something more than the Apraxia to deal with...

" april_twin_mom "

<april_twin_mom@...

m> cc:

Sent by: Subject:

[ ] Terrified that there is more than Apraxia

@yaho

ogroups.com

06/13/2006 01:22 PM

Please respond to

I have 2 year old twin boys who have been in speech thereapy since

October. The speech therepist and their special ed teacher are both

leaning toward apraxia. To get a diagnoses the boys need to see a

developmental pediatrician...the appointment is 4 months away. Both

teacher DO NOT see any sines of autism or any other PDD problems. The

special ed teach has said she is concerned about the way they play

with toys. They don't do anyhitng autistic weird, but they do not

pretend as much as she thinks 2 year olds should. They still do mouth

a lot of ites, but the speech therepist said the the apraxic girl she

just finished working with always did too. It is just so long to wait

for that 4 month visit, to " rule out " everything. I'm just scared...

Does anyone have anything they can tell me?

[Guest guest]

Everyone said that my son at age 2 lacked imaginative play. It drove me

nuts because I KNEW he was playing imaginatively, but he just had no way to

explain to others what he was doing. There is no way a child his age could

happily sit and entertain himself for hours on end doing non-repetitive

things if he wasn't using his imagination. Now at age 4.5 his imaginative

play is clear since he has a few words to express himself. He'll bring

other children into his game and play along with their imaginary games as

well.

I've also heard from some on this list that felt their children truly did

lack imaginative play at age 2. It seems that to some apraxic kids that

kind of play might come later just as the " terrible twos " can come later as

well! But at the same time without the self-talk that most 2 yr olds do

and others overhear it might just seem like the play isn't imaginative when

truly in the child's head who knows what imaginative plots could be happening!

Miche

>I have 2 year old twin boys who have been in speech thereapy since

>October. The speech therepist and their special ed teacher are both

>leaning toward apraxia. To get a diagnoses the boys need to see a

>developmental pediatrician...the appointment is 4 months away. Both

>teacher DO NOT see any sines of autism or any other PDD problems. The

>special ed teach has said she is concerned about the way they play

>with toys. They don't do anyhitng autistic weird, but they do not

>pretend as much as she thinks 2 year olds should. They still do mouth

>a lot of ites, but the speech therepist said the the apraxic girl she

>just finished working with always did too. It is just so long to wait

>for that 4 month visit, to " rule out " everything. I'm just scared...

>Does anyone have anything they can tell me?

[Guest guest]

Wow does this sound familiar! Our SEIT harps on pretend play a lot. We

have been through anindepth diagnostic evaluation for ASD. Our

Developmental Pediatrician, who along with 2 psychologists, agrees that

is NOT on the spectrum, has stated that a lot of pretend play

hinges on speech and language and, as 's speech develops, so will

her pretend play. We are slowly starting to see aome small bits of

pretend play coming out (at the same time as her speech is exploding).

Go figure :-).

Anecdotally, I have heard that lack of pretend play is quite common in

apraxic kids.

I hope that helps.

Warm regards,

******************

(Rochester, NY)

Mom to , 3.1 years, Verbal Apraxia

& , 10 months

________________________________

From:

[mailto: ] On Behalf Of april_twin_mom

Sent: Tuesday, June 13, 2006 1:22 PM

Subject: [ ] Terrified that there is more than Apraxia

I have 2 year old twin boys who have been in speech thereapy since

October. The speech therepist and their special ed teacher are both

leaning toward apraxia. To get a diagnoses the boys need to see a

developmental pediatrician...the appointment is 4 months away. Both

teacher DO NOT see any sines of autism or any other PDD problems. The

special ed teach has said she is concerned about the way they play

with toys. They don't do anyhitng autistic weird, but they do not

pretend as much as she thinks 2 year olds should. They still do mouth

a lot of ites, but the speech therepist said the the apraxic girl she

just finished working with always did too. It is just so long to wait

for that 4 month visit, to " rule out " everything. I'm just scared...

Does anyone have anything they can tell me?

[Guest guest]

" I think professionals today are labeling children too quickly with

Autism &

PDD and not taking into account other factors like their immaturity and

lack of Speech into play. "

AMEN to that!!!

Warm regards,

******************

(Rochester, NY)

Mom to , 3.1 years, Verbal Apraxia

& , 11 months

________________________________

From:

[mailto: ] On Behalf Of

myra.bauza@...

Sent: Tuesday, June 13, 2006 1:53 PM

Subject: Re: [ ] Terrified that there is more than

Apraxia

Don't get upset over this...My son @ 3y.o. was not playing to his SLP's

liking either and even when I took him to the dev. pediatrician at

3y.o.,

she expressed concern, but told me to play pretend with him as much as

possible. I went out and bought him a doll, a doll-house, pretend foods,

puppets...and did just that. I found that the more he obtained Speech,

the

more the pretend play manifested itself. Now at 4.5 y.o., he is

constantly

pretend playing and having these pretend conversations back and forth

with

his toys...so, it's the language factor...(in my case). My son is

intelligible only about 50% of the time..he speaks 4-6 word phrases and

cannot yet dialogue but he is pretend playing. So, give it a chance. I

think professionals today are labeling children too quickly with Autism

&

PDD and not taking into account other factors like their immaturity and

lack of Speech into play. Don't be SCARED! You would know as his mother

if

there was something more than the Apraxia to deal with...

" april_twin_mom "

<april_twin_mom@... <mailto:april_twin_mom%40.co> To:

<mailto: %40>

m> cc:

Sent by: Subject: [ ] Terrified that there is more

than Apraxia

@yaho

ogroups.com

06/13/2006 01:22 PM

Please respond to

I have 2 year old twin boys who have been in speech thereapy since

October. The speech therepist and their special ed teacher are both

leaning toward apraxia. To get a diagnoses the boys need to see a

developmental pediatrician...the appointment is 4 months away. Both

teacher DO NOT see any sines of autism or any other PDD problems. The

special ed teach has said she is concerned about the way they play

with toys. They don't do anyhitng autistic weird, but they do not

pretend as much as she thinks 2 year olds should. They still do mouth

a lot of ites, but the speech therepist said the the apraxic girl she

just finished working with always did too. It is just so long to wait

for that 4 month visit, to " rule out " everything. I'm just scared...

Does anyone have anything they can tell me?

[Guest guest]

Oh thank you! I am trying to pretend withthem more no, I had read that you

shouldnot stifle their creativity by inserting your own. I will continue to

pretend. Thank you so much.

myra.bauza@... wrote: Don't get upset over this...My son @ 3y.o.

was not playing to his SLP's

liking either and even when I took him to the dev. pediatrician at 3y.o.,

she expressed concern, but told me to play pretend with him as much as

possible. I went out and bought him a doll, a doll-house, pretend foods,

puppets...and did just that. I found that the more he obtained Speech, the

more the pretend play manifested itself. Now at 4.5 y.o., he is constantly

pretend playing and having these pretend conversations back and forth with

his toys...so, it's the language factor...(in my case). My son is

intelligible only about 50% of the time..he speaks 4-6 word phrases and

cannot yet dialogue but he is pretend playing. So, give it a chance. I

think professionals today are labeling children too quickly with Autism &

PDD and not taking into account other factors like their immaturity and

lack of Speech into play. Don't be SCARED! You would know as his mother if

there was something more than the Apraxia to deal with...

" april_twin_mom "

<april_twin_mom@...

m> cc:

Sent by: Subject: [ ] Terrified that there is more than

Apraxia

@yaho

ogroups.com

06/13/2006 01:22 PM

Please respond to

I have 2 year old twin boys who have been in speech thereapy since

October. The speech therepist and their special ed teacher are both

leaning toward apraxia. To get a diagnoses the boys need to see a

developmental pediatrician...the appointment is 4 months away. Both

teacher DO NOT see any sines of autism or any other PDD problems. The

special ed teach has said she is concerned about the way they play

with toys. They don't do anyhitng autistic weird, but they do not

pretend as much as she thinks 2 year olds should. They still do mouth

a lot of ites, but the speech therepist said the the apraxic girl she

just finished working with always did too. It is just so long to wait

for that 4 month visit, to " rule out " everything. I'm just scared...

Does anyone have anything they can tell me?

[Guest guest]

Hi April. I'm kind of in the same boat as you. We are scared of a PDD

diagnosis and my son DOES exhibit some of those " red flag " behaviors,

but from what I've read, those behaviors can also accompany apraxia (or

even " just " late talking), sensory processing issues (or full blown

SPD), and to make matters worse, many people believe there is a trend

now to diagnose a child with autism or PDD just because he's language

delayed but especially if he is language delayed and exhibits these

other symptoms. So I'm at the point now where I'm not sure I'll trust

any diagnosis! So then what good is the diagnosis?? Here's the

dilemma: I don't want to be in denial if my child does have PDD, but I

don't want to accept a diagnosis that isn't really true.

As for pretend play, I'm worried mine doesn't do that enough either

(what is enough?) He likes cause and effect toys, pouring water and

sand. He will " feed " a baby doll a bottle and fly a little airplane

around but I think he's just imitating me. I don't know if he is

really pretending. How can you tell?

I will say this though, I think mouthing toys might be a good thing

because they can learn more about how their mouth works and different

sensations. Mine didn't really mouth toys as a baby, so I think it's

kind of good when he does it now (which only seems to be when he's

teething).

I know I'm not helping much, but I'm hoping someone else can guide us

both!

>

> I have 2 year old twin boys who have been in speech thereapy since

> October. The speech therepist and their special ed teacher are both

> leaning toward apraxia. To get a diagnoses the boys need to see a

> developmental pediatrician...the appointment is 4 months away. Both

> teacher DO NOT see any sines of autism or any other PDD problems.

The

> special ed teach has said she is concerned about the way they play

> with toys. They don't do anyhitng autistic weird, but they do not

> pretend as much as she thinks 2 year olds should. They still do mouth

> a lot of ites, but the speech therepist said the the apraxic girl she

> just finished working with always did too. It is just so long to

wait

> for that 4 month visit, to " rule out " everything. I'm just scared...

> Does anyone have anything they can tell me?

>

[Guest guest]

In a study by Simon Baron-Cohen, he identified three things most indicative

of an autism diagnosis. Ask yourself these three questions:

1. Does my child engage in pretend play, that is, using an object as a

substitute for another object (driving a block along and making a car noise)

or pretend something is present that is not (sipping imaginary juice from a

cup)?

2. Does my child point in order to show me something (Children with autism

often point in order to obtain things - protoimperative pointing-, but this

type of pointing -protodeclarative pointing- is simply to share something

with you, such as " look at that bird!).

3. Does your child follow your gaze in order to see what you are looking

at? For instance, if you are facing your child and suddenly look toward the

ceiling, does your child look there, also, in order to see what you are

looking at?

I can understand your concerns and worry. An autism diagnosis is indeed a

difficult thing. However, sometimes the diagnosis opens the door to a

number of services that a child with only an apraxia diagnosis cannot get.

Your kids are very young and so much can be done. A diagnosis is simply a

bunch of words. They are what they are, and a " label " won't change them

from the wonderful kids they surely are.

Best,

[ ] Terrified that there is more than Apraxia

I have 2 year old twin boys who have been in speech thereapy since

October. The speech therepist and their special ed teacher are both

leaning toward apraxia. To get a diagnoses the boys need to see a

developmental pediatrician...the appointment is 4 months away. Both

teacher DO NOT see any sines of autism or any other PDD problems. The

special ed teach has said she is concerned about the way they play

with toys. They don't do anyhitng autistic weird, but they do not

pretend as much as she thinks 2 year olds should. They still do mouth

a lot of ites, but the speech therepist said the the apraxic girl she

just finished working with always did too. It is just so long to wait

for that 4 month visit, to " rule out " everything. I'm just scared...

Does anyone have anything they can tell me?

[Guest guest]

Archive!

From: " kiddietalk " <kiddietalk@...>

Date: Sat Mar 13, 2004 6:28 pm

Subject: Re: Trish-socially engaging but still autistic???/perhaps

not -imagination

Hi Traci, and Trish and all!

About imagination...now this is long!

I wouldn't jump to conclusions that a young child with a

communication impairment has problems with imagination. Like

anything when you are fighting to keep your head above water so you

won't drown, it's hard to enjoy the beauty of the ocean. (yes I was

a lifeguard) In other words -when a child is struggling to

communicate basic needs, imagination may take a back seat. It may

be there, but needs to be encouraged out. Tanner today at 7 years

old is not at 'all' shy. If anything it amazes his teachers how

outgoing he is and not the least bit self conscious of the way he

speaks, even though he still has obvious speaking problems at

times. But...it wasn't always like that. Preschool age and pre -

knowledge age of what Tanner was dealing with -he actually would

withdraw around others and go into a shell. Tanner did well with

one on one playdates -not at all group. Tanner was never considered

autistic or PDD by any of the neurodevelopmental MDs or SLPs or OTs

or teachers that worked with him professionally. Nor was he ever

considered autistic by any lay people. There is a difference in

autism and apraxia -and differences in how to work with both

appropriately. Proper diagnosis of one or both is most important.

I find this to be a very important topic and very misunderstood even

by some professionals. So below is a three year archived history of

some tips we used to assist Tanner in developing a strong

imagination.

Here are some ways to do this that I posted when Tanner was 4

From: "

[Guest guest]

Hi,

Isn't it just great how you have to wait 4 months for such a nerve-

wracking appointment?? SO frustrating...

we've been there.

My daughter has moderate apraxia and sensory integration dysfunction.

She also has some red flags of autism but no diagnosis. It's one of

those frustrating situations where one developmental ped. thinks she is

def. NOT on the autism spectrum, but both of her therapists think she

is, her normal pediatrician is not sure but thinks no, but possible

ADHD.... totally frustrating. We are moving ahead as if she has autism

because of the red flags... But I have decided to come to terms with

the reality that no one really has any clue. We have identified her

areas of need and are addressing those areas, and not worrying about

the label. As some have said, labels can be helpful for obtaining a

lot of services, but who wants your child to have a PDD label if they

don't have PDD?! Basically we were told there are 3 parts to an autism

diagnosis: sensory integration issues, language issues (except with

asperger's) and social issues. If your sons seem to socialize

nonverbally pretty well and have some pretend play AND your gut and

their therpists both think they are not PDD then they very likely are

not. Apraxia is a misunderstood disorder and many things that just go

along with a serious speech disorder and sensory integration issues can

mimic autism.

Hang in there

>

> I have 2 year old twin boys who have been in speech thereapy since

> October. The speech therepist and their special ed teacher are both

> leaning toward apraxia. To get a diagnoses the boys need to see a

> developmental pediatrician...the appointment is 4 months away. Both

> teacher DO NOT see any sines of autism or any other PDD problems.

The

> special ed teach has said she is concerned about the way they play

> with toys. They don't do anyhitng autistic weird, but they do not

> pretend as much as she thinks 2 year olds should. They still do mouth

> a lot of ites, but the speech therepist said the the apraxic girl she

> just finished working with always did too. It is just so long to

wait

> for that 4 month visit, to " rule out " everything. I'm just scared...

> Does anyone have anything they can tell me?

>

[Guest guest]

Okay, this is probably a stupid question, but does it count if you

have to teach them to pretend play? I've been working on pretend

play some with my son and I wonder if he's supposed to just come up

with this on his own and if he's really pretending or just imitating

me. Also, does it count if you have to teach them to point or

should that just come naturally? Sorry two (potentially) stupid

questions!

Don't get upset over this...My son

@ 3y.o. was not playing to his SLP's

> liking either and even when I took him to the dev. pediatrician at

3y.o.,

> she expressed concern, but told me to play pretend with him as

much as

> possible. I went out and bought him a doll, a doll-house, pretend

foods,

> puppets...and did just that. I found that the more he obtained

Speech, the

> more the pretend play manifested itself. Now at 4.5 y.o., he is

constantly

> pretend playing and having these pretend conversations back and

forth with

> his toys...so, it's the language factor...(in my case). My son is

> intelligible only about 50% of the time..he speaks 4-6 word

phrases and

> cannot yet dialogue but he is pretend playing. So, give it a

chance. I

> think professionals today are labeling children too quickly with

Autism &

> PDD and not taking into account other factors like their

immaturity and

> lack of Speech into play. Don't be SCARED! You would know as his

mother if

> there was something more than the Apraxia to deal with...

>

> " april_twin_mom "

> <april_twin_mom@...

> m> cc:

> Sent by: Subject: [ ] Terrified that there is

more than Apraxia

> @yaho

> ogroups.com

>

>

> 06/13/2006 01:22 PM

> Please respond to

>

>

>

>

> I have 2 year old twin boys who have been in speech thereapy since

> October. The speech therepist and their special ed teacher are both

> leaning toward apraxia. To get a diagnoses the boys need to see a

> developmental pediatrician...the appointment is 4 months away. Both

> teacher DO NOT see any sines of autism or any other PDD problems.

The

> special ed teach has said she is concerned about the way they play

> with toys. They don't do anyhitng autistic weird, but they do not

> pretend as much as she thinks 2 year olds should. They still do

mouth

> a lot of ites, but the speech therepist said the the apraxic girl

she

> just finished working with always did too. It is just so long to

wait

> for that 4 month visit, to " rule out " everything. I'm just

scared...

> Does anyone have anything they can tell me?

>

>

[Guest guest]

One thing that I learned along my path is that for some kids, they

do need to be shown the way to pretend land. They're great at

recreating TV or books, but in order to help them, you've got to

show them - help them open their minds. Facilitate, if you will.

One other thing to remember is that children with motor planning

disorders often don't play with toys the same way other kids do.

It's part of the planning for them. They might pretend, but seem

kind of rigid in their pretending because they don't know how to

extend the crane on the truck, or figure out how to make a pretend

dam in the front yard with all the sticks. That's why so many of us

report that our kids dumped out toyboxes over and over and played in

the mess of toys - they didn't know what else to do with them.

Marina

Don't get upset over this...My son

> @ 3y.o. was not playing to his SLP's

> > liking either and even when I took him to the dev. pediatrician

at

> 3y.o.,

> > she expressed concern, but told me to play pretend with him as

> much as

> > possible. I went out and bought him a doll, a doll-house,

pretend

> foods,

> > puppets...and did just that. I found that the more he obtained

> Speech, the

> > more the pretend play manifested itself. Now at 4.5 y.o., he is

> constantly

> > pretend playing and having these pretend conversations back and

> forth with

> > his toys...so, it's the language factor...(in my case). My son is

> > intelligible only about 50% of the time..he speaks 4-6 word

> phrases and

> > cannot yet dialogue but he is pretend playing. So, give it a

> chance. I

> > think professionals today are labeling children too quickly with

> Autism &

> > PDD and not taking into account other factors like their

> immaturity and

> > lack of Speech into play. Don't be SCARED! You would know as his

> mother if

> > there was something more than the Apraxia to deal with...

> >

> > " april_twin_mom "

> > <april_twin_mom@

> > m> cc:

> > Sent by: Subject: [ ] Terrified that there is

> more than Apraxia

> > @yaho

> > ogroups.com

> >

> >

> > 06/13/2006 01:22 PM

> > Please respond to

> >

> >

> >

> >

> > I have 2 year old twin boys who have been in speech thereapy

since

> > October. The speech therepist and their special ed teacher are

both

> > leaning toward apraxia. To get a diagnoses the boys need to see a

> > developmental pediatrician...the appointment is 4 months away.

Both

> > teacher DO NOT see any sines of autism or any other PDD

problems.

> The

> > special ed teach has said she is concerned about the way they

play

> > with toys. They don't do anyhitng autistic weird, but they do not

> > pretend as much as she thinks 2 year olds should. They still do

> mouth

> > a lot of ites, but the speech therepist said the the apraxic

girl

> she

> > just finished working with always did too. It is just so long to

> wait

> > for that 4 month visit, to " rule out " everything. I'm just

> scared...

> > Does anyone have anything they can tell me?

> >

> >

[Guest guest]

I am so lost, is there anyone who has instatn messenger and can chat. i

find the mesage board so slow. I have until 9 before i have other stuff to do.

marina3029 <philipmary@...> wrote: One thing that I learned

along my path is that for some kids, they

do need to be shown the way to pretend land. They're great at

recreating TV or books, but in order to help them, you've got to

show them - help them open their minds. Facilitate, if you will.

One other thing to remember is that children with motor planning

disorders often don't play with toys the same way other kids do.

It's part of the planning for them. They might pretend, but seem

kind of rigid in their pretending because they don't know how to

extend the crane on the truck, or figure out how to make a pretend

dam in the front yard with all the sticks. That's why so many of us

report that our kids dumped out toyboxes over and over and played in

the mess of toys - they didn't know what else to do with them.

Marina

Don't get upset over this...My son

> @ 3y.o. was not playing to his SLP's

> > liking either and even when I took him to the dev. pediatrician

at

> 3y.o.,

> > she expressed concern, but told me to play pretend with him as

> much as

> > possible. I went out and bought him a doll, a doll-house,

pretend

> foods,

> > puppets...and did just that. I found that the more he obtained

> Speech, the

> > more the pretend play manifested itself. Now at 4.5 y.o., he is

> constantly

> > pretend playing and having these pretend conversations back and

> forth with

> > his toys...so, it's the language factor...(in my case). My son is

> > intelligible only about 50% of the time..he speaks 4-6 word

> phrases and

> > cannot yet dialogue but he is pretend playing. So, give it a

> chance. I

> > think professionals today are labeling children too quickly with

> Autism &

> > PDD and not taking into account other factors like their

> immaturity and

> > lack of Speech into play. Don't be SCARED! You would know as his

> mother if

> > there was something more than the Apraxia to deal with...

> >

> > " april_twin_mom "

> > <april_twin_mom@

> > m> cc:

> > Sent by: Subject: [ ] Terrified that there is

> more than Apraxia

> > @yaho

> > ogroups.com

> >

> >

> > 06/13/2006 01:22 PM

> > Please respond to

> >

> >

> >

> >

> > I have 2 year old twin boys who have been in speech thereapy

since

> > October. The speech therepist and their special ed teacher are

both

> > leaning toward apraxia. To get a diagnoses the boys need to see a

> > developmental pediatrician...the appointment is 4 months away.

Both

> > teacher DO NOT see any sines of autism or any other PDD

problems.

> The

> > special ed teach has said she is concerned about the way they

play

> > with toys. They don't do anyhitng autistic weird, but they do not

> > pretend as much as she thinks 2 year olds should. They still do

> mouth

> > a lot of ites, but the speech therepist said the the apraxic

girl

> she

> > just finished working with always did too. It is just so long to

> wait

> > for that 4 month visit, to " rule out " everything. I'm just

> scared...

> > Does anyone have anything they can tell me?

> >

> >

[Guest guest]

At 05:20 PM 6/13/2006, you wrote:

>Okay, this is probably a stupid question, but does it count if you

>have to teach them to pretend play? I've been working on pretend

>play some with my son and I wonder if he's supposed to just come up

>with this on his own and if he's really pretending or just imitating

>me. Also, does it count if you have to teach them to point or

>should that just come naturally? Sorry two (potentially) stupid

>questions!

I had to teach my child to point because he couldn't make a pointer finger

due to minor motor planning issues in his fingers. The lack of pointing is

one of the reasons they mis-diagnosed him with autism.

As for pretend play there is a little girl at my son's school who has

autism. She was playing at the bird seed table last summer with some other

children. I was there as well and they were filling up little cups and it

looked like ice cream cones. I said, mmm, that looks like ice cream and

she got excited and proceeded to actually try to lick it instead of

pretend. It wasn't just imitation. She understood and couldn't understand

why I would say something like that because that kind of thinking was too

different for her. On the other hand when I said that my son and the

others accepted that it was a symbol and pretend and would play along. I

don't know if at that time my son would have come up with that kind of play

on his own, but he could accept it as a way to play.

Miche

[Guest guest]

I can completely empathize, since I've been in the same place with

both my children. I don't think a speech therapist or a special ed

teacher are qualifed to diagnose mild autism, so it's good that you

have appointments with a developmental ped. Children with mild autism

spectrum disorder still tend to be diagnosed later, and this can

severely hamper their chances of a good outcome because of the

importance of early diagnosis. In my situation, it turned out that my

son did not have apraxia at all, but instead ASD (his symptoms were

mild and he was diagnosed at age 4). My daughter was later diagnosed

with both apraxia and ASD at age 2. Because my daughter was diagnosed

so young, she responded to all treatments and therapies more rapidly,

and now at age 4 her language and development is completely normal in

all areas. She has lost both diagnoses.

My kids never did any of the " weird " things with toys that are the

stereotypes of behavior in autism - no lining up toys, flicking hands

in front of their faces, hand flapping, etc. They both had abnormal

play for their age, though it wasn't anything that was very noticeable

to a casual observer.

The day my daughter was diagnosed (right after she turned 2) was one

of the hardest days of my life, and yet I'm now grateful that her

neurologist gave her the diagnosis instead of taking the " wait and

see " approach of her speech therapist and pediatrician. If he had

waited longer to diagnose, I don't believe she would be recovered now.

Don't underestimate what you can do for your kids if they do have an

autism spectrum disorder - there are effective treatments and therapies.

Find the CHAT screening test online and see how your boys do on that

(it should be done by a pediatrician, but you can try it yourself as

well). This may give you a better feeling for what is going on with

your boys, even though this screen is usually given at 18 months.

>

> I have 2 year old twin boys who have been in speech thereapy since

> October. The speech therepist and their special ed teacher are both

> leaning toward apraxia. To get a diagnoses the boys need to see a

> developmental pediatrician...the appointment is 4 months away. Both

> teacher DO NOT see any sines of autism or any other PDD problems. The

> special ed teach has said she is concerned about the way they play

> with toys. They don't do anyhitng autistic weird, but they do not

> pretend as much as she thinks 2 year olds should. They still do mouth

> a lot of ites, but the speech therepist said the the apraxic girl she

> just finished working with always did too. It is just so long to wait

> for that 4 month visit, to " rule out " everything. I'm just scared...

> Does anyone have anything they can tell me?

>

[Guest guest]

and all,

Wondering if you can help on this topic and forgive me in advance if my

wording sounds harsh but this is a topic I am interested in.

Do you believe that your child was " cured " of autism? Or did your daughter

not have autism to begin with, but speech, sensory and/or social issues that

resolved themselves over time with the help of early intervention of s/t and

o/t or p/t? Even if it was diagnosed as mild or high functioning autism,

does a person get cured of it, or do they still just have it but don't have

enough symptoms to still be classified as autistic on the many types of tests

they have?

My interest is this, my son (6) went to a developmental ped and he said that

since my son had pragmatic and semantic language usage problems but many of

his other issues have resolved in time, that he may be one of the lucky ones

who outgrows autism. This whole concept to me doesn't make sense. To me,

you either are autistic or not, like Temple Gradin (hope I spelled her name

right) she has written books and gives lectures, is autistic and she has not

grown out of it. She is very successful, an author, teacher and lecturer. But

I don't believe she ever said she " grew out it " . She has had autism all of

her life.

So while I highly believe in early intervention, like your post says, I have

to wonder, why is it according to the DSMV IV and what will the criteria be

for the V, VI, VII, VIII, IX and X th edition publications. If we are

already on the 4th reconfiguration, wouldn't it lend to the fact that the

publication is still a work in progress and that we don't know enough about the

disorder in order to classify children that are high functioning or mild cases?

I

do firmly believe that there are some children that have " autistic like "

characteristics that mimic autism and that these are the children that

" outgrow "

the diagnosis. What do you or anyone else out there think?

Thanks for your time, Lori

in a message dated 6/14/2006 7:51:38 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time,

eberlein@... writes:

I can completely empathize, since I've been in the same place with

both my children. I don't think a speech therapist or a special ed

teacher are qualifed to diagnose mild autism, so it's good that you

have appointments with a developmental ped. Children with mild autism

spectrum disorder still tend to be diagnosed later, and this can

severely hamper their chances of a good outcome because of the

importance of early diagnosis. In my situation, it turned out that my

son did not have apraxia at all, but instead ASD (his symptoms were

mild and he was diagnosed at age 4). My daughter was later diagnosed

with both apraxia and ASD at age 2. Because my daughter was diagnosed

so young, she responded to all treatments and therapies more rapidly,

and now at age 4 her language and development is completely normal in

all areas. She has lost both diagnoses.

My kids never did any of the " weird " things with toys that are the

stereotypes of behavior in autism - no lining up toys, flicking hands

in front of their faces, hand flapping, etc. They both had abnormal

play for their age, though it wasn't anything that was very noticeable

to a casual observer.

The day my daughter was diagnosed (right after she turned 2) was one

of the hardest days of my life, and yet I'm now grateful that her

neurologist gave her the diagnosis instead of taking the " wait and

see " approach of her speech therapist and pediatrician. If he had

waited longer to diagnose, I don't believe she would be recovered now.

Don't underestimate what you can do for your kids if they do have an

autism spectrum disorder - there are effective treatments and therapies.

Find the CHAT screening test online and see how your boys do on that

(it should be done by a pediatrician, but you can try it yourself as

well). This may give you a better feeling for what is going on with

your boys, even though this screen is usually given at 18 months.

>

> I have 2 year old twin boys who have been in speech thereapy since

> October. The speech therepist and their special ed teacher are both

> leaning toward apraxia. To get a diagnoses the boys need to see a

> developmental pediatrician. developmental pediatrician.<WBR>..the appoin

> teacher DO NOT see any sines of autism or any other PDD problems. The

> special ed teach has said she is concerned about the way they play

> with toys. They don't do anyhitng autistic weird, but they do not

> pretend as much as she thinks 2 year olds should. They still do mouth

> a lot of ites, but the speech therepist said the the apraxic girl she

> just finished working with always did too. It is just so long to wait

> for that 4 month visit, to " rule out " everything. I'm just scared...

> Does anyone have anything they can tell me?

>

[Guest guest]

,

Do you think that the ASD dx for your daughter was correct since it

was later dropped? I didn't think you could " outgrow " autism,

though the more I learn about ASD and PDD the more confused I

become. What therapies (prescribed b/c of her dx) do you think

helped your daughter? And if you don't mind my asking, how was your

children's play " abnormal " ? I'm trying to judge the normalcy of my

child's play.

Thanks,

Kristi

> >

> > I have 2 year old twin boys who have been in speech thereapy

since

> > October. The speech therepist and their special ed teacher are

both

> > leaning toward apraxia. To get a diagnoses the boys need to see

a

> > developmental pediatrician...the appointment is 4 months away.

Both

> > teacher DO NOT see any sines of autism or any other PDD

problems. The

> > special ed teach has said she is concerned about the way they

play

> > with toys. They don't do anyhitng autistic weird, but they do

not

> > pretend as much as she thinks 2 year olds should. They still do

mouth

> > a lot of ites, but the speech therepist said the the apraxic

girl she

> > just finished working with always did too. It is just so long

to wait

> > for that 4 month visit, to " rule out " everything. I'm just

scared...

> > Does anyone have anything they can tell me?

> >

>

[Guest guest]

I was specifically instructed not only by his nuero-developmental

pediatrician and his SLP to pretend play with him...As for pointing, my son

didn't start to point until he was almost 4 y.o. and here too we would ask

him and show him to use his finger to communicate what he wanted. I've

found that nothing comes " naturally " with children with Apraxia, SID and

mild hypotonia. They need prompters; us, to lead them. Questions are never

stupid. Assuming you know it all, is stupid.

Okay, this is probably a stupid question, but does it count if you

have to teach them to pretend play? I've been working on pretend

play some with my son and I wonder if he's supposed to just come up

with this on his own and if he's really pretending or just imitating

me. Also, does it count if you have to teach them to point or

should that just come naturally? Sorry two (potentially) stupid

questions!

Don't get upset over this...My son

@ 3y.o. was not playing to his SLP's

> liking either and even when I took him to the dev. pediatrician at

3y.o.,

> she expressed concern, but told me to play pretend with him as

much as

> possible. I went out and bought him a doll, a doll-house, pretend

foods,

> puppets...and did just that. I found that the more he obtained

Speech, the

> more the pretend play manifested itself. Now at 4.5 y.o., he is

constantly

> pretend playing and having these pretend conversations back and

forth with

> his toys...so, it's the language factor...(in my case). My son is

> intelligible only about 50% of the time..he speaks 4-6 word

phrases and

> cannot yet dialogue but he is pretend playing. So, give it a

chance. I

> think professionals today are labeling children too quickly with

Autism &

> PDD and not taking into account other factors like their

immaturity and

> lack of Speech into play. Don't be SCARED! You would know as his

mother if

> there was something more than the Apraxia to deal with...

>

> " april_twin_mom "

> <april_twin_mom@...

> m> cc:

> Sent by: Subject: [ ] Terrified that there is

more than Apraxia

> @yaho

> ogroups.com

>

>

> 06/13/2006 01:22 PM

> Please respond to

>

>

>

>

> I have 2 year old twin boys who have been in speech thereapy since

> October. The speech therepist and their special ed teacher are both

> leaning toward apraxia. To get a diagnoses the boys need to see a

> developmental pediatrician...the appointment is 4 months away. Both

> teacher DO NOT see any sines of autism or any other PDD problems.

The

> special ed teach has said she is concerned about the way they play

> with toys. They don't do anyhitng autistic weird, but they do not

> pretend as much as she thinks 2 year olds should. They still do

mouth

> a lot of ites, but the speech therepist said the the apraxic girl

she

> just finished working with always did too. It is just so long to

wait

> for that 4 month visit, to " rule out " everything. I'm just

scared...

> Does anyone have anything they can tell me?

>

>

[Guest guest]

I have done the CHAT test, i have looked up every sign i canfind. I have spent

the last 2 weeks not playing with them, but testing them. If the play toolong

with a toy they are autistic, if the don't play long enough they are autistic.

Don't eat dinner well, autistic...throw a toy, autistic! Wake up in themornign

lolling in bed as happy as can be, autistic....having a temper tantrum

autistic!! I really may be losingmy mind. i get up in the middle of the night

while they are sleeping and hold onto one, crying because im convinced that

within the year they will not let me touch them. I get into staring contest,

just to see if they make eye contac, counting the seconds they do... It is

going to be along 4 months.

maryebe <eberlein@...> wrote: I can completely empathize,

since I've been in the same place with

both my children. I don't think a speech therapist or a special ed

teacher are qualifed to diagnose mild autism, so it's good that you

have appointments with a developmental ped. Children with mild autism

spectrum disorder still tend to be diagnosed later, and this can

severely hamper their chances of a good outcome because of the

importance of early diagnosis. In my situation, it turned out that my

son did not have apraxia at all, but instead ASD (his symptoms were

mild and he was diagnosed at age 4). My daughter was later diagnosed

with both apraxia and ASD at age 2. Because my daughter was diagnosed

so young, she responded to all treatments and therapies more rapidly,

and now at age 4 her language and development is completely normal in

all areas. She has lost both diagnoses.

My kids never did any of the " weird " things with toys that are the

stereotypes of behavior in autism - no lining up toys, flicking hands

in front of their faces, hand flapping, etc. They both had abnormal

play for their age, though it wasn't anything that was very noticeable

to a casual observer.

The day my daughter was diagnosed (right after she turned 2) was one

of the hardest days of my life, and yet I'm now grateful that her

neurologist gave her the diagnosis instead of taking the " wait and

see " approach of her speech therapist and pediatrician. If he had

waited longer to diagnose, I don't believe she would be recovered now.

Don't underestimate what you can do for your kids if they do have an

autism spectrum disorder - there are effective treatments and therapies.

Find the CHAT screening test online and see how your boys do on that

(it should be done by a pediatrician, but you can try it yourself as

well). This may give you a better feeling for what is going on with

your boys, even though this screen is usually given at 18 months.

>

> I have 2 year old twin boys who have been in speech thereapy since

> October. The speech therepist and their special ed teacher are both

> leaning toward apraxia. To get a diagnoses the boys need to see a

> developmental pediatrician...the appointment is 4 months away. Both

> teacher DO NOT see any sines of autism or any other PDD problems. The

> special ed teach has said she is concerned about the way they play

> with toys. They don't do anyhitng autistic weird, but they do not

> pretend as much as she thinks 2 year olds should. They still do mouth

> a lot of ites, but the speech therepist said the the apraxic girl she

> just finished working with always did too. It is just so long to wait

> for that 4 month visit, to " rule out " everything. I'm just scared...

> Does anyone have anything they can tell me?

>

__________________________________________________

[Guest guest]

Yes, I do think the ASD dx and the apraxia dx were both correct. She

definitely met the criteria for PDD-NOS. Many consider autism an

lifelong disorder, but regressive autism in particular is not

well-understood and is a fairly recent phenomenon. My son no longer

completely meets the definition of ASD either, but has continued to

receive the label from professionals because his receptive language is

moderately impaired and he has some other typical deficits that remain

as well (he is not functioning typically in all areas like my daughter).

I've known other children who recovered besides my daughter. The most

important therapy we did with her (and that we still do with my son)

is ABA (applied behavior analysis). My daughter started ABA right

after she turned 2, and it had the side benefit of helping a great

deal with her apraxia. (We had an awesome lead ABA therapist who went

to great lengths to research ways to treat apraxic children - she is

like this about any area of concern with the kids she works with).

Biomedical treatment with a Dan! doctor has also been very, very

important for both my kids.

My daughter had little interest in other children and restricted

interests in play activities. Her language was severely delayed, and

she displayed repetitive behaviors, etc. My daughter's disordered play

was very different from my son's - my son has always been social and

wanted to play with other children, though he was rejected by other

kids early on (he would come home crying about how the other kids

didn't like him... it was heartbreaking). Even though I have two

children who have received an ASD dx, they have not had very similar

presentations of the disorder.

> > >

> > > I have 2 year old twin boys who have been in speech thereapy

> since

> > > October. The speech therepist and their special ed teacher are

> both

> > > leaning toward apraxia. To get a diagnoses the boys need to see

> a

> > > developmental pediatrician...the appointment is 4 months away.

> Both

> > > teacher DO NOT see any sines of autism or any other PDD

> problems. The

> > > special ed teach has said she is concerned about the way they

> play

> > > with toys. They don't do anyhitng autistic weird, but they do

> not

> > > pretend as much as she thinks 2 year olds should. They still do

> mouth

> > > a lot of ites, but the speech therepist said the the apraxic

> girl she

> > > just finished working with always did too. It is just so long

> to wait

> > > for that 4 month visit, to " rule out " everything. I'm just

> scared...

> > > Does anyone have anything they can tell me?

> > >

> >

>

[Guest guest]

Joint attention and pretend play are commonly taught skills in ABA

therapy for children with autism. If a child doesn't do these things,

he/she needs to be taught. Pointing and pretend play are prominently

featured on the CHAT screening test that is given by some

pediatricians at 18 months (by that time, these skills should be

developed).

Don't get upset over this...My son

> @ 3y.o. was not playing to his SLP's

> > liking either and even when I took him to the dev. pediatrician at

> 3y.o.,

> > she expressed concern, but told me to play pretend with him as

> much as

> > possible. I went out and bought him a doll, a doll-house, pretend

> foods,

> > puppets...and did just that. I found that the more he obtained

> Speech, the

> > more the pretend play manifested itself. Now at 4.5 y.o., he is

> constantly

> > pretend playing and having these pretend conversations back and

> forth with

> > his toys...so, it's the language factor...(in my case). My son is

> > intelligible only about 50% of the time..he speaks 4-6 word

> phrases and

> > cannot yet dialogue but he is pretend playing. So, give it a

> chance. I

> > think professionals today are labeling children too quickly with

> Autism &

> > PDD and not taking into account other factors like their

> immaturity and

> > lack of Speech into play. Don't be SCARED! You would know as his

> mother if

> > there was something more than the Apraxia to deal with...

> >

> > " april_twin_mom "

> > <april_twin_mom@

> > m> cc:

> > Sent by: Subject: [ ] Terrified that there is

> more than Apraxia

> > @yaho

> > ogroups.com

> >

> >

> > 06/13/2006 01:22 PM

> > Please respond to

> >

> >

> >

> >

> > I have 2 year old twin boys who have been in speech thereapy since

> > October. The speech therepist and their special ed teacher are both

> > leaning toward apraxia. To get a diagnoses the boys need to see a

> > developmental pediatrician...the appointment is 4 months away. Both

> > teacher DO NOT see any sines of autism or any other PDD problems.

> The

> > special ed teach has said she is concerned about the way they play

> > with toys. They don't do anyhitng autistic weird, but they do not

> > pretend as much as she thinks 2 year olds should. They still do

> mouth

> > a lot of ites, but the speech therepist said the the apraxic girl

> she

> > just finished working with always did too. It is just so long to

> wait

> > for that 4 month visit, to " rule out " everything. I'm just

> scared...

> > Does anyone have anything they can tell me?

> >

> >

[Guest guest]

It's fairly rare for a child to just " outgrow " autism - I recently saw

a study that this perhaps happens in 1 of 84 children who are diagosed

with an ASD at age 2-3 (the followup was at age 9). The vast majority

receive a more severe diagnosis (going from say PDD-NOS to true

autism, for example) as they grow older. But most children with autism

receive no ABA and do no biomedical treatment. These two things give a

child a chance at recovery. The original Lovaas ABA study showed that

almost half of children who receive ABA therapy starting at a young

age and with sufficient intensity will recover - that is, they will be

indistinguishable from peers *in every way*. Biomedical treatment

success is harder to measure, since what treatments work for different

children can vary significantly. though biomed has been an important

factor in recovery for many children (including my daughter).

Autism spectrum disorders are defined behaviorally, so either a child

satisfies the definition or not. I don't consider children like my son

to be recovered - he may not meet all critera for ASD any more, but he

still has common deficits that affect his life. (None of you would be

able to pick him out of a group of children his age though... you

might think he had ADHD and/or some language delay if you observed him

over a period of time at school).

The deficits of autism become so significant as a person gets older

that I don't think older kids or adults with autism are " missed " .

Temple Grandin is considered to be mild now, but she is still

significantly affected. The inability to think abstractly and to

relate to others is hard to miss.

I don't know if severity is directly related to outcome, though

quality of early intervention definitely is. If you let a mildly

affected child go without the most helpful treatments and therapies,

he/she is unlikely to improve or lose the dx. A severely affected

child may do much better as a result of good interventions. The most

often recommended therapies are speech and OT, and these didn't do any

good for either of my children until they had received months and

months (years, really) of ABA. I've known children with ASD who are in

grade school now, have been doing speech and OT (only) for years, and

are still non-verbal, not potty trained. They may have seemed mild

when they were 3, but they don't seem so mild now.

> >

> > I have 2 year old twin boys who have been in speech thereapy since

> > October. The speech therepist and their special ed teacher are both

> > leaning toward apraxia. To get a diagnoses the boys need to see a

> > developmental pediatrician. developmental pediatrician.<WBR>..the

appoin

> > teacher DO NOT see any sines of autism or any other PDD problems.

The

> > special ed teach has said she is concerned about the way they play

> > with toys. They don't do anyhitng autistic weird, but they do not

> > pretend as much as she thinks 2 year olds should. They still do

mouth

> > a lot of ites, but the speech therepist said the the apraxic girl

she

> > just finished working with always did too. It is just so long to

wait

> > for that 4 month visit, to " rule out " everything. I'm just scared...

> > Does anyone have anything they can tell me?

> >

>

[Guest guest]

,

Please please dont' worry. Your children do not sound to me (I'm no

expert) like they are autistic. I wrote to you yesterday; they sound like

my son. At 2 y.o.; he did not have any clear words! He grunted and

hoo-hooed to say yes. He could not nod his head yes or no, he could not

point, he played with his toys by lining them all up and going back and

forth with them as he layed on the floor next to do them. He didn't have

very good eye contact. He was very social. He was hitting and slapping...he

was all of the things that one who didn't know him would perhaps be quick

to label him. Thank God our developmental pediatrician had her doubts but

she did show concern and told me so...She told me to just look out for

certain signs and play, play, play with him.. I breathe a sigh of relief

when she told me he wasn't autistic...she then told me he does however have

a severe speech impairment. I've seen pretty high functioning children who

can speak perfectly....my child struggles to learn to speak everyday...I'm

not sure which is the more bitter pill to swallow...Enjoy your children and

try to not to make yourself sick over something you do not have control

over right now...We're on your side and we feel your angst...

Subject: Re: [ ] Re: Terrified that there is more than

Apraxia

@yaho

I have done the CHAT test, i have looked up every sign i canfind. I have

spent the last 2 weeks not playing with them, but testing them. If the

play toolong with a toy they are autistic, if the don't play long enough

they are autistic. Don't eat dinner well, autistic...throw a toy,

autistic! Wake up in themornign lolling in bed as happy as can be,

autistic....having a temper tantrum autistic!! I really may be losingmy

mind. i get up in the middle of the night while they are sleeping and hold

onto one, crying because im convinced that within the year they will not

let me touch them. I get into staring contest, just to see if they make

eye contac, counting the seconds they do... It is going to be along 4

months.

maryebe <eberlein@...> wrote:

Find the CHAT screening test online and see how your boys do on that

(it should be done by a pediatrician, but you can try it yourself as

well). This may give you a better feeling for what is going on with

your boys, even though this screen is usually given at 18 months.

[Guest guest]

Okay. This is starting to tick me off. Are they trying to make us

moms completely neurotic? I'm all for early intervention but it

seems like we might be using faulty logic here. Sensory issues

often go along with autism and PDD, but just because you have

sensory issues (for exp) doesn't mean you have autism or PDD! Kids

do weird stuff! My friends with " typical " kids NEVER have fret over

whether their kids like the Tank Engine too much or agonize

over what their picky eating or aversion to sand points to. When I

was a kid I walked on my tip toes (still do sometimes) and my son

walks on his tip toes and guess what--it's a red flag for autism! I

also used to drip popsicles on the wall and lick it off (gross I

know) ONLY orange ones ONLY one particular wall. I think I was 4.

My mom's response? Big eye roll and a reprimand. I didn't learn to

ride a bike without training wheels till I was 8, but I read posts

from people worried because their 4 yr olds haven't learned to ride

a bike yet. What is normal? Apparently whatever it is, I don't

qualify. And while I may not be the sharpest knife in the drawer,

I'm pretty sure I'm not autistic! I've managed to form friendships,

get married, get and stay emplowed, graduate from college with

honors, and I don't think I seem too crazy--at least not in the

South, though our standards might be a little looser

What does your gut tell you? Do YOU think they're okay? Or are you

like me where you've maybe lost all contact with your true feelings

on this?

> >

> > I have 2 year old twin boys who have been in speech thereapy

since

> > October. The speech therepist and their special ed teacher are

both

> > leaning toward apraxia. To get a diagnoses the boys need to see

a

> > developmental pediatrician...the appointment is 4 months away.

Both

> > teacher DO NOT see any sines of autism or any other PDD

problems. The

> > special ed teach has said she is concerned about the way they

play

> > with toys. They don't do anyhitng autistic weird, but they do

not

> > pretend as much as she thinks 2 year olds should. They still do

mouth

> > a lot of ites, but the speech therepist said the the apraxic

girl she

> > just finished working with always did too. It is just so long to

wait

> > for that 4 month visit, to " rule out " everything. I'm just

scared...

> > Does anyone have anything they can tell me?

> >

>

>

>

>

>

> __________________________________________________

>

[Guest guest]

But if this is the case: " my son has always been social and

wanted to play with other children, though he was rejected by other

kids early on (he would come home crying about how the other kids

didn't like him... it was heartbreaking). " Then how could he have

autism? I thought failure to be social and to relate was crucial

for it to be autism. Reading this makes me worried!

> > > >

> > > > I have 2 year old twin boys who have been in speech thereapy

> > since

> > > > October. The speech therepist and their special ed teacher

are

> > both

> > > > leaning toward apraxia. To get a diagnoses the boys need to

see

> > a

> > > > developmental pediatrician...the appointment is 4 months

away.

> > Both

> > > > teacher DO NOT see any sines of autism or any other PDD

> > problems. The

> > > > special ed teach has said she is concerned about the way

they

> > play

> > > > with toys. They don't do anyhitng autistic weird, but they

do

> > not

> > > > pretend as much as she thinks 2 year olds should. They still

do

> > mouth

> > > > a lot of ites, but the speech therepist said the the apraxic

> > girl she

> > > > just finished working with always did too. It is just so

long

> > to wait

> > > > for that 4 month visit, to " rule out " everything. I'm just

> > scared...

> > > > Does anyone have anything they can tell me?

> > > >

> > >

> >

>