educational testing

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 7/7/2006 1:05:25 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,

janajama@... writes:

I know of a great Educational Psychologist here in VA, but I would rather go

through someone who deals with deaf/hoh issues...

I suggest doing both. In our fight to get Ian services, it turned out that

one of the most valuable assessments we had was from the psychologist. He did

not specialize in D/HOH kids. But he was assessing Ian's emotional well-being

as well as behavioral issues. He knew we were at odds with our district and

in the process of writing his evaluation, stated that for the district to

continue denying necessary services for Ian was causing anxiety issues and

would

cause irreparable harm.

I can't remember the exact words but when our lawyer saw the write-up he

noted that the psychologist's choice of words would be very helpful if we ever

needed to go to court -- and the doctor knew that when he wrote it. He pointed

them out and told me to remember those words were there in case we needed

them. There was no exaggeration in the report, no gilding the lily, just an

honest assessment of our son.

I would also seek out the D/HOH professionals because they are the ones who

can really assess your daughters needs in regards to support services.

We had both kinds of assessments done. Those two evaluations, when put

together, can make a very powerful statement. And if it turns out you don't need

it or it does not support your requests, then you aren't required to share the

psychologist's report because it's a private issue. You chose when to break

that privacy agreement. The school will have their own psychologist doing the

triennial testing.

Best -- Jill

[Guest guest]

I'd like to have a good all around assessment of my daughter's academic progress

some time this year during her 6th grade. We may return to public school and it

will be time for her tri-annual eval where they do the whole " is she eligible? "

routine. I know she will qualify based on her hearing loss, but I want to get a

good all around assessment to support request for services. I know of a great

Educational Psychologist here in VA, but I would rather go through someone who

deals with deaf/hoh issues...VA school for the deaf is three hours away but

might be worth looking into. Anyone have any other suggestions?

Thanks -

[Guest guest]

, What kind of private school is your child in now or do you homeschool??

We found that our local (well 100 miles one way) oral school was a great source

for a comprehensive eval. Our district wanted us to use the state school for

the deaf, the state school folks suggested the oral school would be able to

give us a better eval since our daughter is oral. They specialized in signing

kids. It was a two day thing, and might even be longer with an older child.

I've seen great evals from several different oral schools, and also a great

eval from the state school on a child who had been in an oral program and then

moved and had basically garbage for services for 4 years. She was 8 and had the

language skills of a 2 1/2 year old. They put her in a class with kids with

mental retardation and then wanted to put her with kids with even greater level

of delay when she became a behavior problem. The state school's eval was

downright damning and you could see the indignation steaming off each page!

You are right that you need someone who knows deaf and hoh issues. I was

advocating for a family who used a psychologist for their daughter's emotional

stuff. She was great for that. Then she administered a WISC III and told the

family their expectations were too high because the child's verbal IQ was only

72 (performance was 115). The psych didn't know that you can't use the verbal

for an accurate gauge of IQ in most deaf/hoh kids. (It measures what they have

been specifically taught, not what their potential is) I have a friend who is a

child psychologist, did her post doc doing psychometry for a public school

system . I told her about that and she had no idea about verbal IQ and deaf

kids and she specializes in kids with disabilities - just not deafness. Also a

lot of colleges that train TOD's have evaluation programs. In GA there was a

terrific professor who did evals at the U of GA. Sometimes implant programs at

hospitals have pretty good evaluation programs - don't know if they'd do just a

regular school type eval but it might be worth a try. And maybe even an SLP

program - I'm thinking of NC and SC in particular both have auditory oral/verbal

programs and might do evals or know who would/could. Maybe even the model

school at Gallaudet might do evals. in GA

[Guest guest]

,

How do you get the time and patience to reply to all of these? You amaze

me!

Trish

" , What kind of private school is your child in now or do you

homeschool?? "

[Guest guest]

Where in VA are you located?

McMann II janajama@...> wrote: I'd like to have a

good all around assessment of my daughter's academic progress some time this

year during her 6th grade. We may return to public school and it will be time

for her tri-annual eval where they do the whole " is she eligible? " routine. I

know she will qualify based on her hearing loss, but I want to get a good all

around assessment to support request for services. I know of a great Educational

Psychologist here in VA, but I would rather go through someone who deals with

deaf/hoh issues...VA school for the deaf is three hours away but might be worth

looking into. Anyone have any other suggestions?

Thanks -

[Guest guest]

Lack of self control I think. I do lots of waiting around for doctors in my

job, and if I'm on the computer I look busy! Then I have to get doctors to do

things sometimes which is like herding cats!

Re: educational testing

>

>,

>

>How do you get the time and patience to reply to all of these? You amaze

>me!

>

>Trish

>

>

>

>

> " , What kind of private school is your child in now or do you

>homeschool?? "

>

>

>

>All messages posted to this list are private and confidential. Each post is

the intellectual property of the author and therefore subject to copyright

restrictions.

>

[Guest guest]

Where in VA are you located?

Sharlene-

We live in Herndon (Northern VA, just outside of Dulles airport). Are you

nearby?

[Guest guest]

And maybe even an SLP program - I'm thinking of NC and SC in particular both

have auditory oral/verbal programs and might do evals or know who would/could.

Maybe even the model school at Gallaudet might do evals. in GA

-

Thanks for the great suggestions!

The whole idea the language testing not being accurate for kids with hearing

loss is what concerns me. Maggie's non-verbal scores on a test in second grade

(that the school uses partially for qualifying kids for the GT programs) came

out high average. However, the other achievement tests and the WISC showed

great weaknesses in language. No one would comment about the discrepancies. I

didn't want her in the GT program anyway, so I didn't persue this. However, now

that Maggie is older, I want to get a clear picture and don't want to subject

her to tests that don't really give valid results.

I will be checking into Galluadet and other SLP programs for evals.

[Guest guest]

We are in Dale City and I work in Manassas - Prince County. I have a 3

1/2 year old and a 2 year old who have bilateral moderate to moderate severe

hearing loss. We have already had experience with the county schools, a couple

of the Parent Infant Programs (Prince County, Fairfax County and

Gallaudet University), speech therapists, educators, auditory-verbal therapists,

and audiologists in the area. If you ever want to share stories, vent, etc.

please dont hesitate to contact me. Take care. Sharlene

McMann II janajama@...> wrote: Where in VA are you

located?

Sharlene-

We live in Herndon (Northern VA, just outside of Dulles airport). Are you

nearby?

[Guest guest]

- I forgot to mention that when we first learned of my daughter's hearing

loss, we got alot of help, advice, and testing done at the VA School for the

Deaf and Blind. The trip to Staunton VA was worth it each time. If you need

some contact info. to ask some questions, just let me know - you can email me

directly. Sharlene

McMann II janajama@...> wrote: Where in VA are you

located?

Sharlene-

We live in Herndon (Northern VA, just outside of Dulles airport). Are you

nearby?

[Guest guest]

- I forgot to mention that when we first learned of my daughter's hearing

loss, we got alot of help, advice, and testing done at the VA School for the

Deaf and Blind. The trip to Staunton VA was worth it each time. If you need some

contact info. to ask some questions, just let me know - you can email me

directly. Sharlene

Thanks Sharlene -

How old was your daughter when they worked with her?

I'd love some contact info...i just don't have your e-mail. All I get on the

screen is your name.

I'm at janajama@....

Thanks -

[Guest guest]

, just wanted to clarify. It is NOT that the language testing is

inaccurate, if you have language testing done by an SLP that should be accurate.

In an IQ test, which is considered a psychological test, there are usually a

performance or non-verbal section and a verbal section. The verbal section of

an IQ test is what is totally inaccurate as an IQ TEST for a child with a

hearing loss. It is a good gauge of the quality and quantity of services and

education the child is receiving - not what the child's native intelligence and

abilities are. If the verbal " IQ " is decreasing year after year, it is time to

reassess what is going on education wise.

My Maggie tested with a 20 point discrepancy in her verbal and non-verbal IQ's

at first. We are pretty sure that the gap is closed, based on other testing.

Haven't had another IQ test done.

< Maggie's non-verbal scores on a test in second grade (that the school uses

partially for qualifying kids for the GT programs) came out high average.

However, the other achievement tests and the WISC showed great weaknesses in

language. No one would comment about the discrepancies.

They probably had no clue what was causing these discrepancies! Those are the

tests that you really need to keep an eye on. If the percentile rank is going

down over time, they aren't addressing those issues well.

[Guest guest]

Thanks for all the info. Sharlene. My daughter is 11 - going into 6th grade .

If it's no trouble to also pass on the Galluadet info, that would be helpful as

well.

Thanks so much -

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 7/10/2006 10:16:40 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time,

pcknott@... writes:

My Maggie tested with a 20 point discrepancy in her verbal and non-verbal

IQ's at first. We are pretty sure that the gap is closed, based on other

testing. Haven't had another IQ test done.

For the first time ever, Ian's verbal and non-verbal scores were close --

within 5 points! I read that and almost cried. The psychologist looked at my

loopy grin and asked what was up. I told her it was the first time that specific

testing had shown that his services were not only appropriate but

effectively addressing his needs. It was a wonderful moment for the geek in me.

(grin)

Ah, the silly things that tug at my heart strings. LOL

Jill

[Guest guest]

We did educational testing in California and it was two days ... we

went to the School for the Deaf in Riverside. Our overnight stay

was paid for by either the school or our local district (not sure

which) ...I noticed that you said you were 3 hours away which is why

I am telling you this.

I don't want to give the impression I am pushing other lists; I

think Kay and Barbara know me better than that however - there is

a mom who is an Educational Audiologist who works at VSDB who posts

to the ASDC list, which you can access and join here:

http://www.deafchildren.org

She can probably give you some info VDSB also.

I'd like to have a

good all around assessment of my daughter's academic progress some

time this year during her 6th grade. We may return to public school

and it will be time for her tri-annual eval where they do the

whole " is she eligible? " routine. I know she will qualify based on

her hearing loss, but I want to get a good all around assessment to

support request for services. I know of a great Educational

Psychologist here in VA, but I would rather go through someone who

deals with deaf/hoh issues...VA school for the deaf is three hours

away but might be worth looking into. Anyone have any other

suggestions?

> Thanks -

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

I don't want to give the impression I am pushing other lists; I

think Kay and Barbara know me better than that however - there is

a mom who is an Educational Audiologist who works at VSDB who posts

to the ASDC list, which you can access and join here:

Thanks ! Any information is helpful! I am grateful to Listen-up for the

great moderators and wealth of information.

Even if I go elsewhere for a contact, this will always be my base site!

Everyone here is wonderful!

[Guest guest]

Oh goodness - I let folks know about CICircle all the time! I think

that ASDC list (which I'm a member of) has a different target than

Listen-up which is different from CICircle. We're here to help and

support each other - that's definitely part of it.

As an " implant mom " of older, newly implanted kids (14 and 11), I've

also found the forum that's setup by Cochlear to be helpful. I actually

get more from that list than CICircle because my boys' concerns are more

adult-oriented (like how do you use the BEAM setting - an 18 month old

won't be using BEAM). So I get different - very helpful - information

from each listserve.

Barbara

wrote:

>

>

> We did educational testing in California and it was two days ... we

> went to the School for the Deaf in Riverside. Our overnight stay

> was paid for by either the school or our local district (not sure

> which) ...I noticed that you said you were 3 hours away which is why

> I am telling you this.

>

> I don't want to give the impression I am pushing other lists; I

> think Kay and Barbara know me better than that however - there is

> a mom who is an Educational Audiologist who works at VSDB who posts

> to the ASDC list, which you can access and join here:

>

> http://www.deafchildren.org

>

> She can probably give you some info VDSB also.

>

>

> I'd like to have a

>>

> good all around assessment of my daughter's academic progress some

> time this year during her 6th grade. We may return to public school

> and it will be time for her tri-annual eval where they do the

> whole " is she eligible? " routine. I know she will qualify based on

> her hearing loss, but I want to get a good all around assessment to

> support request for services. I know of a great Educational

> Psychologist here in VA, but I would rather go through someone who

> deals with deaf/hoh issues...VA school for the deaf is three hours

> away but might be worth looking into. Anyone have any other

> suggestions?

>

>> Thanks -

>>

>>

>>

[Guest guest]

Because I'm still learning about this, can you humor me by answering my silly

question? When you say that you closed the gap between the verbal and nonverbal

IQ's, does that mean that you are looking for the verbal IQ number to go up near

the nonverbal IQ number? Or does the verbal go up a little and the non verbal

go down a little until they are closer together?

Debbie, mom to , 7, moderate SNHL and , 3 hearing

pcknott@... writes:

My Maggie tested with a 20 point discrepancy in her verbal and non-verbal

IQ's at first. We are pretty sure that the gap is closed, based on other

testing. Haven't had another IQ test done.

JillcWood@... wrote:

For the first time ever, Ian's verbal and non-verbal scores were close --

within 5 points! I read that and almost cried.

Some men see things as they are and ask why. Others dream things that never were

and ask why not. G.B Shaw

---------------------------------

Talk is cheap. Use Yahoo! Messenger to make PC-to-Phone calls. Great rates

starting at 1¢/min.

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 7/11/2006 10:46:31 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,

babydewe2@... writes:

<

>

In the IQ testing given to our kids there are usually 2 sections, verbal and

non-verbal. For a D/HOH kid, the verbal portion is not a very accurate way

to assess our kids IQ or their potential. It simply does not give a realistic

reflection. For my hearing daughter, I could look at the two results and know

that I was looking at an honest assessment of the child. For my D/HOH son,

that is not the case. Often the school psychologists do not realize that the

verbal score is an issue for D/HOH children and they treat like a complete

assessment.

Since explains this so much better than I can, I'm going to quote her

post in order to answer you. From her last post on this topic:

" " In an IQ test, which is considered a psychological test, there are usually

a performance or non-verbal section and a verbal section. The verbal section

of an IQ test is what is totally inaccurate as an IQ TEST for a child with a

hearing loss. It is a good gauge of the quality and quantity of services and

education the child is receiving - not what the child's native intelligence

and abilities are. If the verbal " IQ " is decreasing year after year, it is

time to reassess what is going on education wise. " "

The non-verbal portion of the test DOES reflect what our kids know, their

IQ. The verbal reflects how wel they are learning. In Ian's first testing

session, his verbal and non-verbal scores were about 15 points apart. His fluid

reasoning skills tested 4+ years ahead of his age. All that is reflective of

his hearing loss. (yet the school still insisted that his hearing loss was not

academically relevant -- ugh!)

Ian unfortunately also has a processing speed issue -- which is, in part, a

visual one. So the kid has a double whammy in that his auditory processing is

hampered by his hearing loss and he has a slowed visual processing speed. But

his non-verbal IQ has always indicated that he has the potential to handle

the classwork, if only we could accommodate his needs.

The disparity between his first verbal and non-verbal scores dumbfounded

that very young psychologist. She couldn't explain the wide range of his scores

except to say that such disparity is what points to an unaddressed learning

disability. Since I was also new to it all, it confused me completely. I soon

learned that the gulf between the two IQ scores pointed out how poorly he was

learning and had been learning for a while.

Ian has had the same TOD working with him since 6th grade (5 years now). He

was a sophomore this year and had triennial testing done again this spring.

For the first time ever, Ian's verbal and non-verbal scores were close. In his

last triennial, the gap had closed to about half what it had been initially.

(I thought that was about as good as it could get.) So, for me as the parent

of a D/HOIH child, I knew that the TOD had been doing her job, had been

making sure his services are indeed addressing his needs. Otherwise those

scores

would not have gotten closer.

So, if you want to look at the test results to assess your child's IQ, then

look at the on-verbal portion. That's the one that will reflect the D/HOH

child's native intelligence and potential. The other, verbal, score is how well

they are accessing their education and how well their services are working.

In that first round of testing, there were three scores, verbal, non-verbal

and then the third, Which seemed to be an average the first two to come up

with the third. As far as I'm concerned, that is not a reflection of Ian's

actual IQ. His actual intelligence level does not drop because of that

inaccurate

verbal score. I figured his reasoning skills (which were the highest score

in his testing) were what was carrying this kid through, and that skill alone

convinced me that the boy was brighter than any of them realized. The

knowledge helped me as I fought for him to have the service he needed to be in

the

mainstream setting and take regular (even advanced) classes.

Hope this helps.

Jill

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 7/11/2006 10:46:31 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,

babydewe2@... writes:

Or does the verbal go up a little and the non verbal go down a little until

they are closer together?

Sorry, I meant to answer this directly. No, from everything I've been told

they should not come together by the non-verbal lowering and the verbal

rising. The verbal should rise to meet the non-verbal.

IQ doesn't measure how " smart " your child is, it measures their ability to

reason. Here's a definition I found that I really liked:

" What is intelligence? The definition I like is that intelligence is " the

ability to learn or understand or to deal with new or trying situations ...

also : the skilled use of reason (The Merriam-Webster Dictionary Online). " I

have heard some people misuse the word smart to mean knowledgeable. That is

like confusing velocity with distance. That one can lead to the other does not

mean that they are the same thing. "

So, what it is measuring is your child's potential to deal with things, the

ability to reason and to think through situations. Not how many facts they've

memorized.

There is a margin of error when doing these tests. That means that on any

given day, the same person can test a little higher of lower depending on just

about anything from whether they slept well, are worried about something or

are just in a bad mood. (Same goes for the audiograms, unfortunately.)

When you read the results they will usually give you something to indicate

the margin of error. On Ian's current test result this margin of error (as I

call it) is referred to as the Confidence Interval. For instance, Ian's

working memory score was 110, the " Confidence interval " was 102-117. That means

that on another day, Ian could test from 102 to 117, and it doesn't mean that

the original testing was wrong. It means that we're human and will test a

little higher or lower depending on many non-test-related outside factors.

The last time they tested him, Ian's performance IQ (non-verbal score) was

112. The time before that it was 108. This time it's 110. That's all within the

margin of error. However, his verbal was 97 last time and about 90 before

that. Now it's 105. The most recent two scores are within the current margin

of error, however it is a marked difference, a continued upward step which to

me is encouraging. That upward progress shows us that Ian's needs are begin

appropriately supported. It warms my mommy-heart. (grin)

So, if your child tests at one number and then a couple months later that

number goes up or down, there is no real reason to think the testing is flawed.

What all of Ian's testing tells me is that he's an average bright kid

capable of making it in the regular level high school classes with the right

support in place -- and what we're doing is working for him.

Best -- Jill

[Guest guest]

Jill and did such wonderful jobs explaining this - it's so confusing!

<-- pulling 's recent IEP out for reference.

tested with a 40 point discrepancy between his verbal and non-verbal

on the Stanford-Binet three years ago, before we knew about his hearing loss

issues. It was all attributed to his speech delays, and the quantity of the

difference qualified him to receive services.

This time around we tested with the WISC-IV, which tests in 4 areas: Verbal

Comprehension, Perceptual Reasoning (which is used as the Non-Verbal

benchmark), Working Memory, and Processing Speed. This time, he had a 34

point difference between his verbal and non-verbal - so we had some

improvement, but it may be due to the difference in the tests being used.

The psychologist did note that he thought that 's deficiencies in his

Verbal abilities " pulled down " his scores in the other two areas - which

really isn't all that surprising.

The good thing that our IEP team did that really helped to quantify what the

team was seeing all year was to give him a series of academic assessments

(Woodcock III) and then compare their results to his non-verbal

benchmark. It proved that 's really struggling with comprehension

issues, and that bleeds into reading, writing, and even math (it's difficult

to solve word problems if you can't figure out what you're supposed to be

doing). All of his Speech and Language testing was also compared to his

non-verbal benchmarks for the purposes of qualification for services.

So - were any of his tests developed and/or targeted for Deaf/HOH?

Unfortunately, no - but this approach did help to mitigate that shortcoming

a bit. It also allowed us to press for his new inclusion services next year

(having a SpEd specialist come into his classroom for 2 to 3 hours a week to

help him make sure that he's organized, staying on task, etc.).

Just my $.05 (somehow, this seemed to be too long to be $.02.)

Kris

Mom to (8, Profound/Complete SNL, Left Ear) and Ethan (6, hearing)

_____

From: Listen-Up [mailto:Listen-Up ] On Behalf

Of JillcWood@...

Sent: Wednesday, July 12, 2006 10:22 AM

To: Listen-Up

Subject: Re: educational testing

In a message dated 7/11/2006 10:46:31 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,

babydewe2 (AT) yahoo (DOT) com writes:

<

>

In the IQ testing given to our kids there are usually 2 sections, verbal and

non-verbal. For a D/HOH kid, the verbal portion is not a very accurate way

to assess our kids IQ or their potential. It simply does not give a

realistic

reflection. For my hearing daughter, I could look at the two results and

know

that I was looking at an honest assessment of the child. For my D/HOH son,

that is not the case. Often the school psychologists do not realize that the

verbal score is an issue for D/HOH children and they treat like a complete

assessment.

[Guest guest]

Debbie, just as Jill said, the verbal comes up to meet the non-verbal. The

non-verbal should remain the same. It might be a little different, but should

remain with in the confidence interval.

>

[Guest guest]

That is a truly wonderful thing!

>

>

>For the first time ever, Ian's verbal and non-verbal scores were close --

>within 5 points! I read that and almost cried. The psychologist looked at my

>loopy grin and asked what was up. I told her it was the first time that

specific

> testing had shown that his services were not only appropriate but

>effectively addressing his needs. It was a wonderful moment for the geek in

me. (grin)

>

>Ah, the silly things that tug at my heart strings. LOL

>Jill

>

[Guest guest]

I got to this point more indirectly. Our school got designated as a NCLB Blue

Ribbon School by virtue of having test scores in the top 10% for the nation.

Maggie's scores were at the middle to top of her class so I figured she was ok

and had closed the gap. This was about 4th grade.

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 7/12/2006 9:43:34 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,

eskilvr@... writes:

<

>

Okay, pardon me but I'm not venting at you, just the situation -- this irks

me! That score did NOT " pull down " his overall IQ. That " full scale " IQ is an

average of the other numbers, and your son's IQ did not drop because of an

inadequate assessment (verbal score), no matter what the psychologist said.

What it did was pull down an artificial average -- you can't get a valid

average of elements when one of the scores being used is not accurate. But

that's

how they get their " full scale " number which has to appear on the report, so

there's no getting around having that inaccurate assessment. (snarl)

For us, this time around, I was happy to note that the psychologist

recognized the verbal score for what it was, what it represented. Thankfully,

she's

not the same inexperienced one we had years ago. Refreshing!

Ian took the same IQ test as this time around (WISC IV). The

verbal/non-verbal is supposedly correlative to the previous testing (or so our

psychologist said). For the academic testing, they used the WIAT-II this time

instead of the Woodcock , and I think that has to do with his age.

The good thing, as you noted, is that the disparity in the test scores was

what qualified him for services. Ian had similar issues with math and language

in elementary school, and his TOD really did design his services to meet

those needs.

I don't know that I would be disappointed that none of 's testing was

normed against D/HOH kids. We've only had Ian tested once or twice with tests

that are normed for D/HOH kids. We had several reasons for that: 1) to

demonstrate his need for extended time and how it reflects on testing results,

2)

clarify/identify language issues/difficulties, and 3) to demonstrate that

expectations for him need to be set higher than the standards for D/HOH kids

(that 4th grade reading-level thing, for instance). He scored very high,

artificially high in my opinion, because the results are normed against a very

different population with diverse issues, not only deafness. (Plus, it had

never

been done, and I was curious as to what his results would be.)

If we're expecting our son to function in the mainstream setting, then he

needs to be tested and evaluated compared to his hearing peers, not

non-existent deaf peers. (Ian is not in a D/HOH program, there are no other

D/HOH

students there) He should therefore be assessed as the regular high school

student

that he is and receive the appropriate support to function in his LRE -- the

mainstream setting. So, we won't be repeating that SAT testing, it serves no

purpose for him. For other kids, it is needed and useful, so I am not

disparaging the need for that testing. We request testing that supports and

clarifies Ian's needs -- nothing like cherry-picking what you know will work

for you

(grin).

The fact that your IEP team compared his speech, language, math, etc, scores

to his non-verbal score sounds like a really good thing! They are comparing

his potential (non-verbal IQ)to where he's at now. That means that they

should be addressing his actual needs. Yes, there's a disparity and he is

struggling with things. But the fact that he will receive services designed to

address those needs is just great.

It's so nice to hear about services that are working the way they should be.

How wonderful for you and !

Best -- Jill