sign language for children who are still verbal

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 5/31/2006 4:29:11 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,

catgb2004@... writes:

My question is: can

anyone recommend a way of teaching/learning basic sign for children

who can still hear? Are these " and Leah Signing Time " videos any

good? Thank you,

Cathy

Our son is was born hearing and lost his hearing gradually. We didn't learn

of his loss until he was almost 8 and then it took another year to find out

the extent of his loss. (He lip read through his first booth tests ... we were

clueless. A long story fraught with mother guilt, grin)

The best way I can think of to teach sign to oral kids is to make it into a

game. If it's work and they don't " need " to do it, they won't bother with it.

Ian is about as oral as a D/HOH can get. He is now 15 and we have been

learning ASL for the past year. Since your kids are oral, there isn't a panic

to

find a language solution immediately, you already have one but you want to

add to it.

When we started, we used ASL signs in English word order. That's not " real "

ASL but it readied us for that next step of learning the right word order

(which is still hard for us). We signed in our version of pidgen ASL and we

understood each other. I suppose, to a fluent signer, we probably were signing

the equivalent of Tonto's speaking in the 50's TV show " the Lone Ranger. " The

world's worst signing. But what's important was that it worked for us. And

when we did encounter people who signed (which was rare), we could get our

point

across even if we were terrible conversationalists.

We would sign at the pool (don't run, don't dunk/kill sister/brother, come

here, stop, now!, 5 more minutes, now go home). We even have our own version

of Marco Polo which involves splashing instead of saying " Marco Polo "

repeatedly. If the pool is relatively empty we add in the use of Nerf balls

tossed at

the person who is " it. " We've discovered that while our kids and their

friends have fun with our version, strangers don't tend to get it and some kids

panic at being slashed when their eyes are closed. So, for those nervous

hearing kids, everyone screams Marco Polo and for those who like the silent

version, we splash a lot.

We also signed at museums and church and other places where it was rude to

talk or be loud. It became a game, our secret language. Recently we went to

the Dia, a local museum with very modern art. My kids thought it was a hoot to

be able to talk about the art without anyone knowing what they were saying.

They would never have spoken the things they were signing because it would have

offended the docent leading the tour. (What's the point of that? That very

ugly! Weird ... what was artist thinking? That looks like a group of (sign for

male anatomy here) Mom, a pile of dirt and broken glass is NOT art, is it?

Red string -- why? Can I tie up sister with string? That looks like a

U-boat.) We had a blast.

You could make shopping a game, if the kids like grocery shopping. Have the

kids find things: pumpkins, apples, oranges, chocolate cookies, frozen pizza,

chicken nuggets, potatoes, etc. There are many vocabulary words they could

add in the store. Starting with their favorite foods is an easy one.

When sitting down to color (my kids LOVED to color) you could use the color

signs when sharing the crayons. Add in signs for the things they like to draw

(cat, mommy, daddy, house, car, teacher) Do you have pets? Use the pet

related tasks as part of the game (Where cat? Dog hungry? Walk dog ....)

I wouldn't start by teaching the alphabet to kids that young. They aren't

going to be ready to spell for a while but they are perfectly capable of

learning the signs for things. (Plus ASL is more signs than finger spelling. I

don't know about the other signing modalities) A lot of it is very like

pantomiming and the signs relate to the thing being said. I'd start with signs

that

relate to the things the girls like or are familiar with. Use their oral

vocabulary as the basis for the signs.

My kids' were older and their first signs were please and thank you. Then

came: no, stop, careful, now, fight, rude, scream, sit, wait and stay. The

building blocks of the basic mommy orders (stop fighting, stop screaming, sit

and

wait, be careful, now! and, of course, no!)

Since your guys are little, I'd start by saying the word while using the

sign. Then I'd drop the word and just use the sign. Pick a few at a time and use

them until they feel familiar, then add a few more. And remember, it's fun.

At first, mine liked signing with each other more than with me.

Here are some visual online dictionary links. I love these and use them all

the time when my feeble brain forgets signs:

_http://www.lifeprint.com/asl101/_ (http://www.lifeprint.com/asl101/)

_http://commtechlab.msu.edu/sites/aslweb/browser.htm_

(http://commtechlab.msu.edu/sites/aslweb/browser.htm)

_http://www.aslpro.com/_ (http://www.aslpro.com/)

Best -- Jill

PS: Our family's reason for choosing ASL over other signing modalities is

that we did not need a visual language to reinforce or build English. All the

signing people we met did so using ASL. We chose ASL more as one would choose

a second language. More to augment Ian's communication choices than as a

primary language choice. However, if the day comes when this is how we " talk "

that will be fine too. That was how our choice was made. Other families on

this

list use other signing options and their choices were made for different

reasons. Each is a personal choice and are just as valid. It's all about what

works for your family.

[Guest guest]

My 3 year old girls are HOH and verbal. But the doctor recommended

learning some basic sign for situations like being in the water (can't

wear aids), noisy places, and when they are at a distance. Also they

are at risk for becoming completely deaf instantly. There would be a

silent period until their cochlear implants started working (something

their anatomy is right for and we would persue). My question is: can

anyone recommend a way of teaching/learning basic sign for children

who can still hear? Are these " and Leah Signing Time " videos any

good? Thank you,

Cathy

[Guest guest]

Hi Cathy - welcome! My boys both communicate orally too but it's great

to have some basic signs for distance, the water, etc. We've taught

their coaches in sports some basic signs (listen, stop, careful - all

the important ones!). There are several here who have good ideas and

references for kids learning to sign - I know they'll chime in.

Barbara

catgb2004 wrote:

> My 3 year old girls are HOH and verbal. But the doctor recommended

> learning some basic sign for situations like being in the water (can't

> wear aids), noisy places, and when they are at a distance. Also they

> are at risk for becoming completely deaf instantly. There would be a

> silent period until their cochlear implants started working (something

> their anatomy is right for and we would persue). My question is: can

> anyone recommend a way of teaching/learning basic sign for children

> who can still hear? Are these " and Leah Signing Time " videos any

> good? Thank you,

> Cathy

>

>

>

>

>

>

> All messages posted to this list are private and confidential. Each post is

the intellectual property of the author and therefore subject to copyright

restrictions.

>

[Guest guest]

I would recommend " American Sign Language Basics for Hearing parents

of deaf children " or just about anything from Butte Publications

http://www.buttepublications.com. Picture Plus Dictionary is good to

have in the home.

I think your doctor is very very smart. I still hear this

baloney: " Don't teach your child to sign because if you want him to

have oral skills, that will hinder his spoken language " . I applaud you

for enhancing your children's communication skills.

> My 3 year old girls are HOH and verbal. But the doctor recommended

> learning some basic sign for situations like being in the water

(can't

> wear aids), noisy places, and when they are at a distance. Also they

> are at risk for becoming completely deaf instantly.

[Guest guest]

>

> My 3 year old girls are HOH and verbal. But the doctor recommended

> learning some basic sign for situations like being in the water (can't

> wear aids), noisy places, and when they are at a distance. Also they

> are at risk for becoming completely deaf instantly. There would be a

> silent period until their cochlear implants started working (something

> their anatomy is right for and we would persue). My question is: can

> anyone recommend a way of teaching/learning basic sign for children

> who can still hear? Are these " and Leah Signing Time " videos any

> good? Thank you,

> Cathy

>

My 3 1/2 year old loves the Signing Time videos and has learned lots

of signs watching them. She sings the songs from the videos too.

She's really become quite interested in sign language. I'd love to

find a class for her to take too. I've seen Baby signing classes, but

nothing for her age. The videos won't really teach them ASL because

they just do vocabulary words, they don't talk about ASL grammar. And

for your purposes you won't need to get all the videos-maybe the first

few plus the one devoted to the alphabet.

[Guest guest]

As an owner of EVERY Signing Time! video, I would be a little biased,

lol. I would say they are definitely worth the money. We have learned

a great deal from these videos and we don't own other baby or kid videos

besides the Peanuts holiday pack. We just don't believe in using

television too much.

Of course, we are dedicated to using the signs we see on the videos in

our daily life, not just watching the videos.

You might check to see if they have them at your local library or see if

they are on your local public television station. Also, the Captioned

Media Project has the first three the last time I checked.

My four year old knows just about every sign from all thirteen videos

and my nearly 18 month old (who is hard of hearing) knows over a 100

signs.

I would say Signing Time! is a great tool, but you have to be dedicated

to learning some sign as a family for it to help.

Oh, my husband worked with some Gallaudet students recently on a

leadership training weekend. They were surprised that he had learned so

much sign from Signing Time videos.

As a family we also try to learn new signs every week and have also

taken a couple signing courses geared towards toddlers.

in Manassas, VA

> My 3 year old girls are HOH and verbal. But the doctor recommended

> learning some basic sign for situations like being in the water (can't

> wear aids), noisy places, and when they are at a distance. Also they

> are at risk for becoming completely deaf instantly. There would be a

> silent period until their cochlear implants started working (something

> their anatomy is right for and we would persue). My question is: can

> anyone recommend a way of teaching/learning basic sign for children

> who can still hear? Are these " and Leah Signing Time " videos any

> good? Thank you,

> Cathy

>

>

>

>

>

>

> All messages posted to this list are private and confidential. Each post is

the intellectual property of the author and therefore subject to copyright

restrictions.

>

[Guest guest]

-----Original Message-----

From: Listen-Up [mailto:Listen-Up ] On

Behalf Of

I still hear this

baloney: " Don't teach your child to sign because if you want him to

have oral skills, that will hinder his spoken language " .

WOAH!!!! Hold on a minute here. This is NOT baloney! Many of us have

children who are such fiercely strong visual learners that teaching sign

language along with spoken language DOES in fact hinder their spoken

language development. Hadley is such a person. As a result, we have

worked extra hard at developing her listening and speech discrimination

skills, plus her ability to fill in with auditory contextual clues. She

has developed an ability to lip read on her own. As far as

communicating and keeping her safe while unaided, these skills serve her

extremely well and allow her to follow and participate in a conversation

if her aids need to be out.

I know this group works extra hard to make sure that those families who

use sign, whether a little or a lot, feel comfortable and supported by

this list-serv. But there has been an increasing tolerance for

generalizations against completely oral families like my own. D/HOH

children can do amazingly well with no sign language and full reliance

on auditory input. Like this group is fond of saying, it comes down to

what works best for the individual child and family.

Kerry

[Guest guest]

On

> Behalf Of

> I still hear this

> baloney: " Don't teach your child to sign because if you want him

to

> have oral skills, that will hinder his spoken language " .

>

>

>

>

>

> WOAH!!!! Hold on a minute here. This is NOT baloney! Many of us

have

> children who are such fiercely strong visual learners that teaching

sign

> language along with spoken language DOES in fact hinder their spoken

> language development. Kerry

As a still-sorta-new-parent of a deaf child, I am very confused by

this as well. (BTW, when do I feel like a seasoned parent of a deaf

child?) Grace was/is severe/profound in both ears and she now has a

CI which was actived in January. She is 4y4m old. I want her to

learn to speak and listen, just like the kids I saw at an oral school

last fall. So we got her the CI and she is on her way to speaking.

She was in a public preschool program this past semester which was

supposed to be oral but because of Grace's age, lack of language, and

the fact that her CI was just activated, the teachers taught her

signs as well as got her to use her voice. We all learned the signs

as Grace used them so our family knows what Grace is saying by

watching her hands as well. ( I also bought a standard 8,000 word

ASL dictionary so I could look up anything. I find this very helpful

to have in the kitchen for daily use.)

Now we are doing her IEP and I want her to go to the private oral-

only school who proclaims that they 'teach deaf children to speak'.

They DON'T sign at all. Not that they will slap Grace's hands if she

uses her signs, but they will not be signing to her, they will expect

her to listen to figure out what she is hearing and to vocalize back

to them.

I believe Grace is a visual learner, much like I am, but I only

realized this about myself in the last few years. I cannot listen to

a lecture and get much out of it. I daydream, I forget what was

said, I would rather be reading a book. I can read an essay or an

article and understand everything perfectly. Is it cruel to expect

our visual kids to only learn by listening? I'm to the point where I

don't really care if it's cruel, I just want her to speak. And I

don't care if she learns 4yo academics, I just want her to be able to

talk and tell me that she doesn't know anything! (I'm being a little

sarcastic here.) Once she knows how to listen and talk, then she can

learn as much sign language as she wants and use it all the time.

She can be the cool 12yo that can speak and sign fluently if she

wants to. But not until she learns to speak.

Is this cruel? If she wasn't deaf, she would still be speaking even

though she is a visual person, right? Do hearing kids learn to

listen and speak by using visual cues too and we just don't realize

that? Grace uses at least 100 signs to get through her day and puts

5-6 together to form a complete thought ....'I want brown (chocolate)

milk please'....'where is Dad?'....'Mom Dad Grace 3(people) go bye-

bye car'.... so I feel she is getting the idea of sentences and what

language does for us. She voices with every sign although her

pronunciation is not great. Her school did a great job getting her

through these first few months of hearing while we were getting her

MAPpings adjusted and fine-tuned. And now she can hear normal speech

and I feel like she understands more and more of what we say to her

everyday. But now I want to send her to the strict oral-only school

and I don't want to feel guilty for doing so. Should I feel guilty?

Is this opening a discussion that shouldn't be discussed here? If it

is, just say so.

Thanks,

Cherie

[Guest guest]

I don't often say much but this is one area where Rebekah often gets caught

in the middle. We use total communication and Rebekah prefers to communicate

orally with her friends. Yet her ability to sign has made school so much

easier for her. This said, we all make choices on what we believe is best

for our child and NO ONE can decide what's best for a child better than

family. If we look at children who are " successful, " it is because that

child has the support of their family. This is true whether the child is

hearing or deaf. I teach and work with hearing and deaf children. The ones

that succeed have the support of their home. So what ever the choice, it's

really about our dedication as parents to that choice and our commitment to

do what is required for our son or daughter to achieve his or her potential.

Both sign and oral approaches have strengths and weaknesses. Neither is the

perfect solution. Why spend time worrying about which is better? Our energy

is finite. As for me, I will continue to strive for what is good for Rebekah

and let other parents take care of what works for their child. I respect

each parent who is involved and dedicated to the success of their child

regardless of their choice of communication.

Thanks to all the parents on this list serve and their love and dedication

to family.

Quita

Mom to and Rebekah

RE: Re: sign language for children who are still verbal

>

>

> -----Original Message-----

> From: Listen-Up [mailto:Listen-Up ] On

> Behalf Of

> I still hear this

> baloney: " Don't teach your child to sign because if you want him to

> have oral skills, that will hinder his spoken language " .

>

>

>

>

>

> WOAH!!!! Hold on a minute here. This is NOT baloney! Many of us have

> children who are such fiercely strong visual learners that teaching sign

> language along with spoken language DOES in fact hinder their spoken

> language development. Hadley is such a person. As a result, we have

> worked extra hard at developing her listening and speech discrimination

> skills, plus her ability to fill in with auditory contextual clues. She

> has developed an ability to lip read on her own. As far as

> communicating and keeping her safe while unaided, these skills serve her

> extremely well and allow her to follow and participate in a conversation

> if her aids need to be out.

>

> I know this group works extra hard to make sure that those families who

> use sign, whether a little or a lot, feel comfortable and supported by

> this list-serv. But there has been an increasing tolerance for

> generalizations against completely oral families like my own. D/HOH

> children can do amazingly well with no sign language and full reliance

> on auditory input. Like this group is fond of saying, it comes down to

> what works best for the individual child and family.

>

> Kerry

>

>

>

>

> All messages posted to this list are private and confidential. Each post

> is the intellectual property of the author and therefore subject to

> copyright restrictions.

>

[Guest guest]

Wow...I was going to reply to this, but I think you've said it better than I

could. No one should feel guilty for the method they have chosen. You know

your child best and you know what will work for your family.

That said, nothing is written in stone. If you try a method and find that it

just isn't working out, you can always try something else if you want.

My daughters HI uses the analogy of a thumbprint to describe deaf/hoh

children. Although they may look the same at first glance, no two are the same.

Each deaf/hoh child is unique in what they need to be successful. What works

for some, doesn't work for all, but what works for your child and family is

best.

Debbie, mom to , 6, moderate SNHL and , 3, hearing

Quita Farley pqfarley@...> wrote:

>>This said, we all make choices on what we believe is best

for our child and NO ONE can decide what's best for a child better than

family. If we look at children who are " successful, " it is because that

child has the support of their family. This is true whether the child is

hearing or deaf. I teach and work with hearing and deaf children. The ones

that succeed have the support of their home. So what ever the choice, it's

really about our dedication as parents to that choice and our commitment to

do what is required for our son or daughter to achieve his or her potential.

Both sign and oral approaches have strengths and weaknesses. Neither is the

perfect solution. Why spend time worrying about which is better? Our energy is

finite. As for me, I will continue to strive for what is good for Rebekah and

let other parents take care of what works for their child. I respect each parent

who is involved and dedicated to the success of their child regardless of their

choice of communication.

Some men see things as they are and ask why. Others dream things that never were

and ask why not. G.B Shaw

__________________________________________________

[Guest guest]

Hi there,

We know a little sign language even thought my daughter is verbal (did I

mention that she's VERY verbal) We started to learn a little sign shortly after

she was diagnosed with her moderate bilateral SNHL at 2 1/2, and I continued to

build on that. In the beginning she was fine with the sign and then about a

year later she wanted nothing to do with it. We still sign from time to time,

mostly in situations like you mentioned, but also for times when we need to be

quiet. It's not always polite to use your loud voice in church...lol.

My kids love the " Signing Time " videos. We've only seen the first three,

since these are the only ones that we can rent or borrow. It's presented in a

very fun way and they get a kick out of them. We also have a couple of " sign "

books. One is called the Handshape alphabet and the other one is called " My

First Book of Sign Language " . At least I " think " those are the titles...my kids

are asleep and I can't look for the books in there now. My daughter thinks the

books are cool and use to imitate the signs from them. Apparently that was

better than having mom show her how to do them (can you tell she's a bit

independent?)

You may want to look at a PBS station near you to see what there programming

is. Some stations across the country have Signing Times on. If you're near

Chicago, it's 6am on Sunday morning.

Debbie

catgb2004 catgb2004@...> wrote:

My 3 year old girls are HOH and verbal. But the doctor recommended

learning some basic sign for situations like being in the water (can't

wear aids), noisy places, and when they are at a distance.

Some men see things as they are and ask why. Others dream things that never were

and ask why not. G.B Shaw

__________________________________________________

[Guest guest]

I'd like to echo what Deb said on this subject: you can try different

things, and use what works for you. Children are fairly malleable. You can

try the oral-only route, and monitor her progress, and if you find she needs

more support, try something else. No one dies.

The most important thing is that the child learns to communicate, and has

access to language. I also agree that each child is different, and develops

in their own way. As long as your family is comfortable with and supportive

of the choices you are making, I truly believe it will all work out for your

child.

This list is great for gathering information and discussions with other

parents in the same boat as you. But ultimately you are the only one who can

decide what will work for your family.

Stefanie

Mom to Ben, 7, severe/profound HOH, and Isabella, 10, mild loss

[Guest guest]

OK - so here is where a question that I have comes in....sorry......

I was told recently that it is easier for verbal children to learn and use SEE

or SE because it better follows English grammar. If there is anyone with verbal

kids who also use sign on a regular basis (ASL) please fill me in!!!! I'm

confused.

Oh - and one thing I'm doing to try to learn is to make flashcards and stick

some up around the house. I'm also " trying " to make sentences that I use daily

- haven't actually gottent that far yet.

I found that I was looking up individual words at the end of the day as I came

across ones that I was using. Then I would never use them the next day!! So I'm

hoping the flashcards will help.

---------------------------------

How low will we go? Check out Yahoo! Messenger’s low PC-to-Phone call rates.

[Guest guest]

Cherie,

From a linguistics point of view (my oldest daghter is a linguist),

sign language is a language. It is learned by the same part of the

brain as spoken language. The fact that one uses a different sense

organ for input is not that significant.

Re: sign language for children who are still verbal

On

> Behalf Of

> I still hear this

> baloney: " Don't teach your child to sign because if you want him

to

> have oral skills, that will hinder his spoken language " .

>

>

>

>

>

> WOAH!!!! Hold on a minute here. This is NOT baloney! Many of us

have

> children who are such fiercely strong visual learners that teaching

sign

> language along with spoken language DOES in fact hinder their spoken

> language development. Kerry

As a still-sorta-new-parent of a deaf child, I am very confused by

this as well. (BTW, when do I feel like a seasoned parent of a deaf

child?) Grace was/is severe/profound in both ears and she now has a

CI which was actived in January. She is 4y4m old. I want her to

learn to speak and listen, just like the kids I saw at an oral school

last fall. So we got her the CI and she is on her way to speaking.

She was in a public preschool program this past semester which was

supposed to be oral but because of Grace's age, lack of language, and

the fact that her CI was just activated, the teachers taught her

signs as well as got her to use her voice. We all learned the signs

as Grace used them so our family knows what Grace is saying by

watching her hands as well. ( I also bought a standard 8,000 word

ASL dictionary so I could look up anything. I find this very helpful

to have in the kitchen for daily use.)

Now we are doing her IEP and I want her to go to the private oral-

only school who proclaims that they 'teach deaf children to speak'.

They DON'T sign at all. Not that they will slap Grace's hands if she

uses her signs, but they will not be signing to her, they will expect

her to listen to figure out what she is hearing and to vocalize back

to them.

I believe Grace is a visual learner, much like I am, but I only

realized this about myself in the last few years. I cannot listen to

a lecture and get much out of it. I daydream, I forget what was

said, I would rather be reading a book. I can read an essay or an

article and understand everything perfectly. Is it cruel to expect

our visual kids to only learn by listening? I'm to the point where I

don't really care if it's cruel, I just want her to speak. And I

don't care if she learns 4yo academics, I just want her to be able to

talk and tell me that she doesn't know anything! (I'm being a little

sarcastic here.) Once she knows how to listen and talk, then she can

learn as much sign language as she wants and use it all the time.

She can be the cool 12yo that can speak and sign fluently if she

wants to. But not until she learns to speak.

Is this cruel? If she wasn't deaf, she would still be speaking even

though she is a visual person, right? Do hearing kids learn to

listen and speak by using visual cues too and we just don't realize

that? Grace uses at least 100 signs to get through her day and puts

5-6 together to form a complete thought ....'I want brown (chocolate)

milk please'....'where is Dad?'....'Mom Dad Grace 3(people) go bye-

bye car'.... so I feel she is getting the idea of sentences and what

language does for us. She voices with every sign although her

pronunciation is not great. Her school did a great job getting her

through these first few months of hearing while we were getting her

MAPpings adjusted and fine-tuned. And now she can hear normal speech

and I feel like she understands more and more of what we say to her

everyday. But now I want to send her to the strict oral-only school

and I don't want to feel guilty for doing so. Should I feel guilty?

Is this opening a discussion that shouldn't be discussed here? If it

is, just say so.

Thanks,

Cherie

All messages posted to this list are private and confidential. Each

post is the

intellectual property of the author and therefore subject to copyright

restrictions.

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 6/1/2006 12:52:37 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time,

saraandchadd@... writes:

I was told recently that it is easier for verbal children to learn and use

SEE or SE because it better follows English grammar. If there is anyone with

verbal kids who also use sign on a regular basis (ASL) please fill me in!!!!

I'm confused.

I think this decision is based on your child's needs and specific goals.

We're not a signing family just because we never were, not because we chose not

to be. Ian is the only D/HOH member of our extended family. This was all new

to me! Ian was almost 9 when he was finally aided. I looked into the

different signing styles when we were first trying to figure out what Ian needed

and

what was available. (I will readily confess that I now confuse the details

of SEE and CUE)

(For those of you using these modalities, please correct me if I'm wrong)

From what I understand choosing SEE or CUE (I'm sure I'm missing one or two

more) has to do with supporting English -- speech and reading skills. They

facilitate English by providing a visual language that mirrors it.

However, I don't think there is a deaf community where those are the

languages of choice. I don't think they are considered actual languages that

way ASL

is. They are often referred to as " signing modalities " where ASL is called a

" language. " From what I have encountered, the members of the deaf

communities around here are all ASL signers.

For us, Ian doesn't need a visual language to support English. He learned

English grammar orally as he lost his hearing. Our household does incredibly

well with absolutely no signing. To be blunt, we don't need any form of signing.

Ian is getting his education completely orally and all services in his

school are to support an oral education. Had he needed that visual support,

based

on what I'd read and learned, then SEE would have been our choice because it

would have supported his goals. But, most importantly, Ian refused to sign

and wanted to speak only, so that decision was made.

However, things do change. It's now 6+ years later and we've chosen to learn

ASL because it's the language of the deaf community. Ian is 15 ... it is

never too late to learn this stuff. As a visual learner, he's picking it up

quite quickly. I've also been told that kids who learn one form of sign have a

fairly easy time of learning another one.

So, your choice of signing style would be tied into your goals for your

child. What is the role of signing going to be in your child's life and

education? I'd start with that answering question and moving on from there.

Best -- Jill

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 6/1/2006 12:54:26 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time,

stefanieac@... writes:

This list is great for gathering information and discussions with other

parents in the same boat as you. But ultimately you are the only one who can

decide what will work for your family.

Well said -- Jill

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 5/31/2006 10:36:42 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,

cbagadiong@... writes:

But now I want to send her to the strict oral-only school

and I don't want to feel guilty for doing so. Should I feel guilty?

Is this opening a discussion that shouldn't be discussed here? If it

is, just say so.

As long as the conversation isn't stridently claiming one modality is better

than another, most discussions are okay here. (But there are a few hot

button topics that are best avoided because they usually end up in flames not

matter how fair the discussion tries to be -- and the moderators will step in

when/if that happens)

About feeling guilty ... I swear that comes with the territory of

motherhood. You're going to wonder if you're making the right choice, what will

your

child miss if you make the wrong one? It doesn't matter which decision you

make, there's always a bit of a backwards glance and the " what if... " thought

that follows a decision. At least there is for me.

What it comes down to is what works for your child and what works for your

family.

If you feel that an oral school is what she needs, where she will do well

and meets your goals, then go for it. If it turns out not to work, you can

always change your mind and change schools.

Our Ian is about as oral as you get. He attends our local high school as a

fully mainstreamed student. He speaks as clearly as any hearing person and has

never needed speech related services. His hearing deteriorated after he was

speaking, but even so, I've been told that his enunciation is amazing given

his loss. Why? Who knows Some docs have said it's his particular type of loss

plus the timing of it.

Yet he is a visual learner. We didn't know about his loss, and he had to

cope somehow on his own without even realizing he was doing it. The kid became a

very adept lip reader. My husband has a full beard and mustache, so Ian

learned to lip read on one of the most difficult faces possible. So, from what

I

can tell, being a visual learner does help with being an oral child because he

can see what we say.

Ian watches not just our lips but our jaws and head tilts for clues about

what is being said. He can often lip read my husband and me from the side, but

can't do that with many people. He reads body language like a pro and can

sense someone's mood from across a crowded room by seeing how they're standing

and reacting to what's going on around them. He doesn't even realize he's doing

it. So from our experience, your child's visual skills can indeed help.

However, I don't know if lip reading is supported in the setting you

describe. I've read of parents covering/averting their mouths when speaking to

take

away the visual lip clues in order to force the child to have only sound

input. And I do know that Ian could not function the way he does in a

completely

oral setting without those lip reading skills.

You need to talk with the school about their approach and their techniques.

Very specific things not just an overview. Then decide if what you're learned

fits with your child and your family.

Best -- Jill

[Guest guest]

Quita - nicely said!

My boys are *so* auditory which amazes everyone as deaf kids are not

supposed to be auditory but visual, right? If Tom doesn't understand

something you said, he will actually move his ear closer to your mouth

so he can hear you. So you're right - I'm going with what works for my

kids and our family and that often is different. Ditto too for whoever

said that you can change your mind if one way seems to not be working.

Thanks to everyone for keeping this discussion respectful and civil.

Barbara

Quita Farley wrote:

> I don't often say much but this is one area where Rebekah often gets caught

> in the middle. We use total communication and Rebekah prefers to communicate

> orally with her friends. Yet her ability to sign has made school so much

> easier for her. This said, we all make choices on what we believe is best

> for our child and NO ONE can decide what's best for a child better than

> family. If we look at children who are " successful, " it is because that

> child has the support of their family. This is true whether the child is

> hearing or deaf. I teach and work with hearing and deaf children. The ones

> that succeed have the support of their home. So what ever the choice, it's

> really about our dedication as parents to that choice and our commitment to

> do what is required for our son or daughter to achieve his or her potential.

> Both sign and oral approaches have strengths and weaknesses. Neither is the

> perfect solution. Why spend time worrying about which is better? Our energy

> is finite. As for me, I will continue to strive for what is good for Rebekah

> and let other parents take care of what works for their child. I respect

> each parent who is involved and dedicated to the success of their child

> regardless of their choice of communication.

>

> Thanks to all the parents on this list serve and their love and dedication

> to family.

>

> Quita

> Mom to and Rebekah

> RE: Re: sign language for children who are still verbal

>

>

>

>> -----Original Message-----

>> From: Listen-Up [mailto:Listen-Up ] On

>> Behalf Of

>> I still hear this

>> baloney: " Don't teach your child to sign because if you want him to

>> have oral skills, that will hinder his spoken language " .

>>

>>

>>

>>

>>

>> WOAH!!!! Hold on a minute here. This is NOT baloney! Many of us have

>> children who are such fiercely strong visual learners that teaching sign

>> language along with spoken language DOES in fact hinder their spoken

>> language development. Hadley is such a person. As a result, we have

>> worked extra hard at developing her listening and speech discrimination

>> skills, plus her ability to fill in with auditory contextual clues. She

>> has developed an ability to lip read on her own. As far as

>> communicating and keeping her safe while unaided, these skills serve her

>> extremely well and allow her to follow and participate in a conversation

>> if her aids need to be out.

>>

>> I know this group works extra hard to make sure that those families who

>> use sign, whether a little or a lot, feel comfortable and supported by

>> this list-serv. But there has been an increasing tolerance for

>> generalizations against completely oral families like my own. D/HOH

>> children can do amazingly well with no sign language and full reliance

>> on auditory input. Like this group is fond of saying, it comes down to

>> what works best for the individual child and family.

>>

>> Kerry

>>

>>

>>

>>

>> All messages posted to this list are private and confidential. Each post

>> is the intellectual property of the author and therefore subject to

>> copyright restrictions.

>>

[Guest guest]

Kerry -

I was speaking in generalities, not pinging on anybody who has chosen

a/v or oralism for their child. I was refering to those who need to

bridge the gap btw either having no language, whose pediaticians have

told the parents not to teach sign language to their child because

that will hinder their spoken language. Some of these kids are often

NOT verbal and then they end up having no language. I did not intend

to denigrate the hard work you have done with Hadley, and because I

offended you, I apologize for that.

Regarding this:

> I know this group works extra hard to make sure that those families

who

> use sign, whether a little or a lot, feel comfortable and supported

by

> this list-serv. But there has been an increasing tolerance for

> generalizations against completely oral families like my own. D/HOH

> children can do amazingly well with no sign language and full

reliance

> on auditory input.

If you see examples of this, PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE email me, Barbara,

or Kay with what you take exception to. I know there are TC families

on here who have felt differently. I ask all of you to help make the

list a friendly and welcoming place by letting us know if you notice

something wrong. Remember that Barbara, Kay and I all have families

and jobs and we are going to miss things.

Thank you,

[Guest guest]

--Sorry for sounding so ignorant but...what is TC? I am the one who

made the original post and I am new to hearing loss and my twins are

young (3) so I don't have a lot of experience with schools, etc.

From the responses, I think I will look into the Sign Time videos -

trying the library first. And there were other good resources listed

as well. I should add that my girls had learned some signs with me as

babies and they do still use them (anything to help me understand them

during those long early months with twins!). Since their hearing loss

is recent, this has new meaning to us! As their loss progresses

(probable) and if/when they get cochlear implants, I am sure I will

learn a lot more about what you all are talking about.

Thanks for the responses,

Cathy

- In Listen-Up , pcknott@... wrote:

>

>

> ----->Quita - nicely said!

> >

> >Amen to that too!

>

> I will hop in here and say that from the research, kids who have

CI's who are in oral programs do appreciably better with oral language

than kids with CI's who are in TC programs. The difference is pretty

big - TC kids who are the " stars " with oral language score at about

the mean of Oral kids. (and poorly performing kids in oral programs

test at the same level as higher performing kids in TC programs.) Can

you extrapolate that to kids with hearing aids? - I think so, but

there's no research on that issue directly. Does SEE provide better

access to English (spoken or written/reading) than ASL? No research

directly on point. Makes intuitive sense but since SEE and sim/com

came into vogue in the late 60's/70's there has not been a

corresponding appreciable improvement in reading scores. No one has

done the research for this, but I'd bet money that kids in TC

programs sign better than kids in oral programs! In fact, that

sounds like a no-brainer!

>

> My issue with all of this is that the public schools are generally

one sided with offering only TC. You give a child an early diagnosis

and a CI or digital hearing aids and they have so much more auditory

potential than was dreamed possible in the past. TC was invented to

give kids who didn't have much auditory potential (Kids haven't

changed but the technology has) access to a full language (usually a

version of signed English). If you have changed the technology so

drastically that you can use the auditory channel - why would you

continue to do the same thing (TC) and emphasize the non-auditory

channel? TC was supposed to give kids the best of both worlds - does

it do that for some kids?? Yes. Does it do that for all kids - No.

>

> So if your child has a CI and great auditory potential should you

feel guilty for wanting/fighting for a program that has a proven

ability to better help your child acheive their auditory and verbal

language potential?? NO, of course not. Should you be satisfied

with a program that was designed for kids with much less auditory

potential and expect to get the same results as with an oral program -

no. Is TC the " right " answer for some kids with CI's - Yes. Is Oral

the " right " answer for some kids with CI's - Yes.

>

> For years, I have had the opinion that kids who were at either end

of the spectrum (AV/mainstream and ASL/residential school) were more

successful than kids who did TC. (Just my opinion, NO research to

back this up!) I've heard from people in the newborn screening

" business " that when given information and a choice, a significant

number of families are choosing modes of communication that the

professionals never considered compatible - ie AV and ASL together!

(not together like " sim-com " but learning both languages separately -

more like a bilingual english/spanish home.) So I'm eager to hear how

that works out! in GA

>

[Guest guest]

Hi Cathy -TC is total communication. Others will correct me but it's

incorporating all forms of communication - generally sign of some sort

and also oral - to communicate with your child (children in your case!).

Barbara

catgb2004 wrote:

> --Sorry for sounding so ignorant but...what is TC? I am the one who

> made the original post and I am new to hearing loss and my twins are

> young (3) so I don't have a lot of experience with schools, etc.

>

> From the responses, I think I will look into the Sign Time videos -

> trying the library first. And there were other good resources listed

> as well. I should add that my girls had learned some signs with me as

> babies and they do still use them (anything to help me understand them

> during those long early months with twins!). Since their hearing loss

> is recent, this has new meaning to us! As their loss progresses

> (probable) and if/when they get cochlear implants, I am sure I will

> learn a lot more about what you all are talking about.

>

> Thanks for the responses,

> Cathy

>

> - In Listen-Up , pcknott@... wrote:

>

>>

>>

>

[Guest guest]

Yes TC uses sign and oral and whatever else works. My philosophy with

Rebekah is that I will use anything that teaches her the language

(vocabulary) and how to say it. We have encouraged voice and sign. She is

fluent in both. She even studies Spanish and is learning to speak and read

it. Her interpreter at school is fluent in ASL, English, and Spanish so she

hears the Spanish with her cochlear implant and sees the Spanish signed in

ASL. We have done goofy things to teach her how a word sounds such as

teaching her zucchini (zoo + key + knee). Since she knew those signs when

she was little, we taught her to string those words together to say the

word.

Quita

Re: Re: sign language for children who are still verbal

Hi Cathy -TC is total communication. Others will correct me but it's

incorporating all forms of communication - generally sign of some sort

and also oral - to communicate with your child (children in your case!).

Barbara

catgb2004 wrote:

> --Sorry for sounding so ignorant but...what is TC? I am the one who

> made the original post and I am new to hearing loss and my twins are

> young (3) so I don't have a lot of experience with schools, etc.

>

> From the responses, I think I will look into the Sign Time videos -

> trying the library first. And there were other good resources listed

> as well. I should add that my girls had learned some signs with me as

> babies and they do still use them (anything to help me understand them

> during those long early months with twins!). Since their hearing loss

> is recent, this has new meaning to us! As their loss progresses

> (probable) and if/when they get cochlear implants, I am sure I will

> learn a lot more about what you all are talking about.

>

> Thanks for the responses,

> Cathy

>

> - In Listen-Up , pcknott@... wrote:

>

>>

>>

>

All messages posted to this list are private and confidential. Each post is

the intellectual property of the author and therefore subject to copyright

restrictions.

[Guest guest]

Thanks for all the replies. I have stopped feeling guilty about all

this. Thanks to whoever said that we can always change schools again

if Grace is not doing well in a year. You are right. Nothing is set

in stone.

And Grace tells a story with one facial expression. She doesn't have

to express her feelings because they are shown on her face all day.

I'm sure she reads other's body language and facial expressions way

more than I realize.

We did go to the oral school today for an evaluation and standard

testing. She did better than I expected on her auditory

comprehension of all the objects on the list. And she was able

to 'say' many of them that I didn't know she could say. And what

really surprised me was that she didn't use any signs while the woman

was giving her the test. She just listened and said the words and

didn't use her hands to reinforce what she was saying. I think she

can be very oral and she just needs the full day program to emphasize

it all.

One thing that was funny was the lady would raise her eyebrows when

she said a certain word or a certain sound. About 30 minutes into

the test, when Grace's attention was waning, Grace just started

making the same face as her, not even paying attention to the word or

anything else except for what this ladies' face looked like. Grace

was quite pleased with herself and was cracking herself up at being

able to imitate her face and make the lady laugh. So we quit the

test.

I am hoping they have room for her in their summer program that

starts Monday (every morning for the month of June) and I think we

will be able to send her there this fall. My district doesn't seem

to have a big problem with the funding but they did mention that

maybe I would want to drive her to/from school to save some money??

Will think about that. The tuition is $24K a year.

This whole process can be quite stressful but knowing that so many of

you are out there and your kids are doing well helps keep me calm.

Grace seems to be initiating making comments to people now instead of

just making demands or trying to answer questions. She told the

neighbor the other day that she had some water. (She was drinking

out of a water bottle.) And she regularly says good-bye to everyone

on her own when leaving a room or the house or school. It's fun to

see her verbal language develop, even if it seems slow.

Cherie

, 6, hearing, just finished kindergarten today, and Grace, 4.5,

AB Auria CI activated 1/9/06

[Guest guest]

Cherie, I just had to write, because I know how painfully slow language

development can seem when you are waiting for the explosion. My son's

hearing loss was identified at birth, so he was aided at 3 months, with

intensive early intervention support. It took FOREVER for him to talk, even

with all the different things we were doing with him. It was a very slow

progression for the first few years, and I honestly thought he would never

really talk.

But I'm writing because my son is now 7, and he is so amazingly verbal, that

there are actually times when I ask him to please stop talking! I just can't

process all the things he says, and believe me when I tell you he talks

nonstop. This morning I went in to wake him up, and the first thing he says

to me, even before his hearing aids are in, is " Mom, can you think of any

words that have only letters between " a " and " p " (in the alphabet order) in

them? I thought of " abdomen " -- what others can you think of? " He just blows

me away.

So keep doing all that you are doing -- the language will come.

I wish you well,

Stefanie

Mom to Ben, 7, severe to profound HOH, and Isabella, 10, mild loss

on 6/1/06 10:38 PM, Cherie at cbagadiong@... wrote:

It's fun to

> see her verbal language develop, even if it seems slow.

>

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 6/2/2006 8:52:07 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time,

lill_tinkerbelle@... writes:

Hailey loves brocoli and I haven't been able to find anyone that knows the

sign for it, so we still sign, green+tree+eat, because Hailey said they look

like green trees that you eat.

LOL ... we call them trees too. And cauliflower is called brains. I make

broccoli and cauliflower soup which is called Brain Tree Soup. (grin) Jill