Guest guest Posted April 21, 2006 Report Share Posted April 21, 2006 I don't know what type of testing your child has gone through, nor who paid for it (private too?) but it concerns me deeply that a school for " mentally retarded " children is even suggested as an appropriate option for your child. Too many in the speech impaired world fall through the cracks. Not talking doesn't mean not thinking! Has anyone at all suggested the option of waiting one more year to start kindergarten? Who really cares if a child starts at 5 vs 6? Apparently as you'll read below the more affluent and educated parents do since that's the age chosen for academic and athletic reasons for their " normal " children. By next year, one more year of intensive and appropriate therapy (and EFAs too?) perhaps like my son your daughter will be able to enter a mainstream kindergarten class. My son Tanner is in 3rd grade in the mainstream and doing great in every single way -academics, sports, social, everything. Some never thought he'd make it even in kindergarten (!!) and he SO proved them so wrong. If he can do it there are so many more out there that can too! Know that for a fact. Below is an archive that may help raise awareness about some of the points I just brought up: From: " kiddietalk " <kiddietalk@...> Date: Mon Aug 15, 2005 2:36 pm Subject: Re: question about kindergarten kiddietalk Dear Archana, Below are some archives that will help answer your question. In a nutshell your child is entitled to continue preschool until 6 if the IEP team deems that to be appropriate. Appropriate as you can imagine is far too tangible a word in something as important as decisions for what is or is not " most appropriate " for your child's education. They may say throwing an essentially nonverbal 5 year old child who still needs tons of therapies into kindergarten as " most appropriate " Fortunately, you and your husband are part of that IEP team to make that decision and you can share outside information to support your stand...such as private evals and opinions, and all of the following which has helped others. I'd also suggest showing up with a copy of The Late Talker. All the stories from The Late Talker are from this group and printed with permission from the families. Oh, and let them know we are working on the next book and that we may be interviewing you! If your public school can no longer provide appropriate preschool placement until your child is 6, they will need to provide out of district preschool placement. You would be amazed what they find they can do when they are confronted with that option. Share the study posted below about the reasons to delay kindergarten vs. retaining. If you need help you can call me at 973 390 7541. (Jersey line to still reach me at even though we are now in Florida!) Hope the following helps! From: " kiddietalk " <kiddietalk@...> Date: Sun Dec 14, 2003 10:56 am Subject: Re: Waiting on Kindergarten/long (even for me!) answer Hi ! Tanner was in out of district placement at the Summit Speech School for the hearing impaired/deaf which was a preschool placement that went up to six years old http://www.oraldeafed.org/schools/summit/ I'm not sure what happens with in district placement from State to State -or country to country. I can however share my experience with this: Tanner at five was still not able to hold a pencil correctly nor was he good at imitating circles etc. He would work hard -he's always been a child that wants to do what others tell him to do. Due to motor planning and weakness problems however -he still needed OT. His speech was much improved by five -but he spoke like a baby. Put it this way -Becca -the child who just turned three speaks far more and far more articulate than Tanner was at five. Tanner was developmentally slow on speech and language development. Another theory of mine is that our children do NOT have the diagnosis of speech language impairment -but they appear to have that when they developmentally go through that stage. (this is the stage where they are doing sentences -but mix up syntax -etc.) Just like the stuttering stage can last longer and happen much later -with apraxic children not enough studies have gone into what is " normal " for them. So again -don't want them to be inappropriately labeled. At five Tanner was still in intensive therapy -and needed that extra year of intensive therapy for speech and occupational therapy. He was only in a half a day program -and by the time he came home on the 15 minute bus ride -he would fall asleep on the bus. I'd have to wake him up and then he would come in and nap more. Tanner needed much more sleep than other five year olds. When it was time for IEP -I was told not to have him evaluated - there was a chance that he was doing well enough that he wouldn't qualify for continued out of district placement until six. What happened then was that both my town school and Summit Speech School professionals both agreed that it was most appropriate to keep Tanner in preschool until six. Here is my favorite part of the story from the archives : " Funny story is that Tanner's case manager at Tanner's five year old IEP meeting said " In our town we like to start five year olds in Kindergarten " I actually laughed when she said that (couldn't help it) and said " Our town? I live in this town and was a Kindergarten classroom mom for Dakota who I started at five year olds and he and Molly ___ were just about the only two five year olds in the entire Kindergarten class -so suggesting to start special needs speech impaired apraxic children at five when all the quote unquote normal kids don't start till six is not the best idea to say the least! " Needless to say -our town paid for Tanner to continue in his " out of district " placement at the Summit Speech School in New Providence NJ till six. We withheld testing which I was advised we could do - since he would have " tested out of the program " So in fact your town could pay for in district or out of district preschool placement from five to six years old if you and the child study team agree that will be best to wait till six. Keep in mind that apraxic children take a bit longer at times to do what comes naturally to other children -and in time they can perhaps blend in with others with no damage to self esteem from teasing etc. I heard that in NJ a child doesn't legally have to begin Kindergarten till seven -not sure but anyone could check that out for their state/area. So don't rule out paid preschool after five years old as an option...if that is what is appropriate for your child. " Bottom line is both the school system and you are looking for the best way to get your child succeeding in the mainstream with as few services as possible and as quickly as possible. Here are some archives to answer more. Since there are a number - and this is just the most recent -it's long and some may be repeating but I don't have time to clean up. So if this isn't a concern -just delete! ) ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Check with other parents in your town if this is your first child to find out what age most other parents in your town start their children in Kindergarten. I started my son Dakota at five years old for Kindergarten in the Warren/Berkeley Heights/Basking Ridge area of NJ where we used to live -and he was one of the two five year olds in the class. Most parents in our upper middle class town didn't start their children until six for competitive sports and academics reasons -so starting my " suspected ADHD late talker " five year old Dakota in Kindergarten we saw as a mistake -and one we could never fix. Dakota was too bright to be left back once he started -socially he was not as mature as his classmates however -but he became friends with his class mates regardless -so repeating is something Dakota didn't want. What I didn't at all like was that each day the teachers had to keep yelling over and over " Dakota... " fill in the blank - " do this or don't do that or sit down or be quiet or pay attention " etc. So not starting Tanner in Kindergarten at five was not even a thought when we lived in NJ. Why put a double whammy on the kid and start him at five when most of his classmates will be six -and in some cases -already reading and writing!! Funny story is that Tanner's case manager at Tanner's five year old IEP meeting said " In our town we like to start five year olds in Kindergarten " I actually laughed when she said that (couldn't help it) and said " Our town? I live in this town and was a Kindergarten classroom mom for Dakota who I started at five year olds and he and Molly ___ were just about the only two five year olds in the entire Kindergarten class -so suggesting to start special needs speech impaired apraxic children at five when all the quote unquote normal kids don't start till six is not the best idea to say the least! " Needless to say -our town paid for Tanner to continue in his " out of district " placement at the Summit Speech School in New Providence NJ till six. We withheld testing which I was advised we could do - since he would have " tested out of the program " So in fact your town could pay for in district or out of district preschool placement from five to six years old if you and the child study team agree that will be best to wait till six. Keep in mind that apraxic children take a bit longer at times to do what comes naturally to other children -and in time they can perhaps blend in with others with no damage to self esteem from teasing etc. I heard that in NJ a child doesn't legally have to begin Kindergarten till seven -not sure but anyone could check that out for their state/area. So don't rule out paid preschool after five years old as an option...if that is what is appropriate for your child. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Jola, As always it's yours and your husband's decision on what age to start a speech impaired child in kindergarten. Keep in mind the following however. Your child's school said some pretty horrible things. Sorry isn't enough -what is the track record of this school district with verbal impaired children? What age does the average parent in your town start children in kindergarten? Where I used to live in Warren NJ -the average age was 6. (Warren is a more affluent/higher educated area -parents do this for academic and athletic reasons for all children) Kindergarten is not the grade to determine readiness -it's first grade and beyond. You want your child (I'm guessing) to be mainstreamed like the other kids K-12 -so you want to give him the best chance to be in the mainstream. Does your son still need speech therapy? How much time and energy will be spent on that vs. learning to read and write and do math etc. at 5 years old? Those of us however that start our children at 6 in kindergarten -we have that one extra year of therapy and developmental time-in preschool without pressure.. Does your son need any occupational therapy? Can he sit upright and how good is he at holding a pencil? By first grade he will be expected to sit upright in a chair and hold a pencil and write for longer periods of time then those children with hypotonia can do at just 6 years old without prior therapy. Those of us however that start our children at 6 in kindergarten -we have that one extra year of therapy and developmental time at 5 -in preschool without pressure. Does kindergarten have as your husband believes " the challenge of the other regular kids who he can emulate " ? Does your child have just a simple delay in speech? Even then -he could pick up speech from you and your husband -and from a regular preschool placement. This isn't a choice of kindergarten or not. The choice is 5 vs. 6 years old to start? Frustration vs. encouragement? Which would happen? If a child has a simple delay in speech -being thrown into a situation with other children is a great way to get them talking. Doesn't work like that for apraxia -some become more frustrated. They don't just start talking. As far as more intensive therapy in kindergarten? Why isn't your child getting that now if he's entitled to it? In fact -my son Tanner had the most intensive years of speech therapy ever during his preschool years. To me that's the best time to do it -not in school years. By the time Tanner started kindergarten at 6 he only needed 3 days a week of speech therapy - not 5, and only 2 days a week of occupational therapy -not 3. http://www.cherab.org/information/familiesrelate/letter.html If your child isn't receiving intensive therapy now (and it's in his IEP he will get that in kindergarten!!) -then that needs to be addressed with the IEP team when you contact them to let them know you want to reopen the IEP to hold off kindergarten till 6 -enroll him in an appropriate multisensory preschool where he can get an extra year of the intensive therapy they wanted to give him while he was learning what he needed to learn in kindergarten. Getting him up to speed by kindergarten is the goal. Please search the archives for 'anyone' who complained about starting a " late talker " child at 6 in kindergarten (none) vs. the many who have problems that started their child at 5. If you do start your child at 5 regardless as some do for the same reason you state -the dad wants that -hope as well that your child is then one of the few as reported here that does do well regardless ....after kindergarten. Again -kindergarten shouldn't be much different then a really good multisensory preschool. Some preschools in fact can be more advanced then some kindergarten classes! Please read this again -and please feel free to take this entire letter to your IEP team -they can contact me if they have questions 772 335 5135. The proof is in the pudding. If they want to save money -they'll do the right thing and let your child have one more year of preschool and therapy to get up to speed now for kindergarten at 6. In the PreK class she would/should continue to get the services she needs/all of them that are needed and suggested as options you state for kindergarten, and concentrate on getting up to speed while again giving her an extra year of development as well. Please don't get caught up in the 'want her to be challenged' thing. Learning how to talk/ overcoming motor planning impairments and behavioral issues are all challenging and important issues that you still do have time to work on before she starts her 'real' academic career. Try working on those issues with a 7 year old or older child while she is trying to be like the rest and keep up with her peers on real school work -not finger painting! Kindergarten again just is not much more challenging than a really good multisensory preschool/preK -perhaps switch to another class/school if the one your child is in is not appropriate for your child's needs. Both a good preschool and then kindergarten are there to give children a solid base and love of learning if done well. And if done well it's only got to be done once. And..again - you don't want to repeat kindergarten unless 100% necessary. If any question that she will have to repeat a grade -hold back to start at 6 vs. 5. Why? Below is just one research study. And again -if anyone knows any downside to starting a child at 6 -please do tell us and the internet why -since right now it's unknown. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ From: " kiddietalk " <kiddietalk@...> Date: Wed Jan 7, 2004 8:58 pm Subject: Re: Finally!!! (no wait -really) kiddietalk Hi Dena, One point that was missed is the option of not starting your child in kindergarten until she turns six -which I highly suggest you explore. Did I say highly -based on what you wrote below I'd say delay unless you have a good reason to start at five. And the spec. ed small class vs. mainstream large class is just theory - not real world 'students rise to the level of expectations'. If you think kindergarten is coming up fast -first grade comes up just as fast and much more is expected, sitting at a desk, reading, writing, math, science...it's not just getting ready for school anymore like kindergarten -it's school. Unless you want your child to stay in special ed -chances are based on how much more is expected in first grade for work and independence -if he or she is not able to make it in the mainstream class in kindergarten -then by first he or she 'may' be ready for mainstream first -but odds are... Well -you all know my opinion - now for the stats -look at the research and more in these archives below (and search the archives -much more there on this topic) The first one was in response to a parent that had a school that would keep the child back to repeat if they were not ready for first...and this parent appeared to think this would be better than another year of a good multisensory preschool like hearing impaired schools or others posted about here (which is different than just " normal " preschools which as reported here may or may not be a good thing for a child with a moderate to severe delay in speech for self esteem and frustration reasons to just name two of the negatives posted here): " Unlike preschool -which not one of those children ended up in the same school -all of the kids Dakota and Tanner went to kindergarten with -as a group went on to first grade together -etc. Perhaps we were different in that we were very involved with the school -and the other families -and Dakota and Tanner became really good friends with some others. Since we've moved -Dakota and some of his friends from NJ are still " best friends " that now only see each other once in a while and mostly just talk on the phone -but still close. From what I read however -once you start a child -holding them back is not a good thing. Of course those you know may be different than what research (and I) have found. Some people like I say -need to learn the hard way. And I can tell you for a fact that whether a child is able to say it or not -staying back when all your friends move on is not good. Children who have parents that delay entry I've just read do better than those who have to stay back and repeat. Why? Funny I didn't read this till now but look at just these two possible reasons: Parents who choose to delay their children's school entry may have a higher level of awareness and involvement. The stigmatizing effect of being required to repeat a grade may harm children's academic progress. May want to read this and argue with the research -I'm only stating what I found -and I stick to it. I'll even go as far as saying now in almost all cases -don't start a child with apraxia, motor planning delays, DSI, and any other delays in kindergarten at 5 - start them at 6. (especially without a doubt for those of you with children like mine with summer birthdays!!!) " Research Link / When Children Aren't Ready for Kindergarten H. Holloway How can schools promote the achievement of children who are old enough to enroll in kindergarten but who are not developmentally ready to succeed? Two approaches that parents and schools commonly use are delaying the child's entry into kindergarten and retaining the child in kindergarten for an extra year. Giving children an extra year, whether through delayed entry or kindergarten retention, makes sense in view of the ample research suggesting that the youngest children tend to lag behind their classmates. West, Denton, and Reaney (2000) found that in the spring of their kindergarten year, younger children had lower reading and mathematics knowledge and skills on average than did their older counterparts. These researchers also found that older kindergartners were more likely to persist at tasks, more eager to learn, and better able to pay attention. Delayed Entry Versus Kindergarten Retention To avoid the disadvantage suffered by younger students, some parents choose to delay the entry of their children into kindergarten. Zill, Loomis, and West (1997) found that children whose kindergarten entry was delayed so that they started kindergarten when they were older performed better than their younger classmates in grades 1 and 2. These researchers concluded that the extra year before starting kindergarten does not harm the children who are held out and may help most of them. In contrast, the researchers discovered that children who repeated kindergarten were doing worse than their younger classmates on most school performance indicators by 1st or 2nd grade. For instance, two- thirds of the retained students had received some negative feedback from teachers compared with less than half of the nonretained students. The retained students were also much more likely to have problems concentrating, to perform below their capabilities, and to act up and disrupt the class. Zill, Loomis, and West concluded that repeating kindergarten had not helped those children and may have actually made matters worse. Reasons for the Differences What explains the difference between the school performance of delayed-entry children and those who repeat kindergarten? Both groups of students are older than most of their classmates, so why don't the beneficial effects of being older apply to both groups? Some possible answers are that The underlying developmental problems of the two groups may differ. The two groups may have different socioeconomic backgrounds. Parents who choose to delay their children's school entry may have a higher level of awareness and involvement. The stigmatizing effect of being required to repeat a grade may harm children's academic progress. (read full article) http://www.ascd.org/publications/ed_lead/200304/holloway.html (go with your gut ....after you research all the research) (and print out the above link to bring to the IEP) ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ As you know I agree . One thing far too many parents don't appreciate until hindsight kicks -is that it's not just being ready for kindergarten...it's being ready for first grade, second grade, third, and the rest -it's only easy for the first year. As I have made very clear -Tanner didn't start kindergarten until 6 - which was 'normal' for all of the children in the town we moved from in NJ (which is not far from NYC and a blue ribbon school district) and he was in OT through out kindergarten working on fine motor skills which he transitioned out of at the end of kindergarten. He was top in a mainstream kindergarten class in a public school with pull out ST and OT -and is now mainstreamed in an accelerated academics private school in 1st receiving straight A's in everything. I know he would not have been ready for this earlier. Some here say they are happy they started their apraxic child at five -most say it was a mistake if they did -and a few like me who waited to start their child until 6...all happy about it. Starting younger than 5...for an apraxic child? Why in the world would anyone want to do that? Start your child when you believe they have the best chance for staying in the mainstream throughout school -and without struggles. (key words " self esteem " ) Here is a good archive on this here /message/2482 6 and here is another to/from Tricia -a mom to talk to about this: From: " kiddietalk " <kiddietalk@...> Date: Tue Nov 11, 2003 6:08 pm Subject: Re: Starting Kindergarten vs. Waiting Tricia when I wrote about the only two families that started their child at five instead of six in kindergarten in our old NJ town (us being one of them because we didn't know) guess what? Dakota and Molly (the other five year old in Dakota's grade) were two of the three children that the teacher's suspected ADHD in. Granted -many others, including MDs, viewed Dakota as having some type of ADHD until we used the right oil therapy with him, but maturity surely had something to do with it for Dakota and for Molly as well. And...in Dakota's case, since his birthday is July 30th -he was not just the youngest in that he started at five -he is still the youngest even when with other five year olds. One of the complaints about Dakota to us? during story time " he will lay down on the rug instead of sitting up the whole time like the other children " At five he was over a year younger then the rest! Dakota did well in school, however I don't like that he had so much pressure put on him from five years old to behave. He went through a year of his young life (first grade was the worst) hearing " Dakota! Sit up! " " Dakota, pay attention! " " Dakota! " etc. Dakota loved all his friends and did too well academically to keep him back -but by the skin of his teeth he was not put on medications for ADHD -and we took him for many opinions. Back then I had many conversations with the other parents too (was a class mom) -and we just couldn't keep Dakota back even though maturity wise it would have been best. He had, again, all his friends that were all one year older - and was a good student. (update -key word here is " used to be " for those that are happy they started an apraxic child at five -hope you are still happy down the road -I used to be and I'm not now) I used to be happy that I started Dakota when I did at five and Tanner at six. But as the years went on, I believe it would have been best for Dakota to have started at six too. He's still not the most mature in his classes even today -and still the youngest -and again doing too well to keep back. He's typically a straight A and B student. Tanner not only had that extra year developmentally to grow so his motor planning and speech was much improved -that year did make a difference, but Tanner is also always the well behaved mature child in the class. He is friends with everyone -including the teacher. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ How old is your daughter now? You may have another option you have not thought of yet -waiting one more year to start and having her preschool program paid for by your school district for one more year -it's what we did -and in the long run we are saving them money because Tanner, in spite of the fact his speech is still not perfect, is now mainstreamed and doing great. There is much on this in the archives -as well as your question about learning to read (Tanner who is apraxic was one of the top students in his kindergarten class -and loves reading simple books like Dr. Seuss etc. -and with the Cat In the Hat movie coming out now!!) In general -I feel strongly about putting your child into the least restrictive environment -even if a " special " Kindergarten is available. As I said to Tanner's IEP team -we are talking about kindergarten here -not a rocket science class -if a child isn't given a chance to make it in a mainstream Kindergarten -than what grade do you propose is best to start them in the mainstream?! Speech ability is no indication of intelligence -schools for the deaf are aware of this. I so love and miss Kanter who was the Executive Director of, and the life behind -the Summit Speech School - who passed away the other day of cancer. I don't know how I'll ever be able to think of the Summit Speech School without thinking of , in awe of her -and can not imagine that school without that amazing lady running it. No wonder members here are having trouble getting their hearing apraxic children into that school today - apparently wasn't there to help bring our children a voice anymore -she was too sick. Please quote her to whoever tells you that your child isn't able to attend this school (or one like it) if they are not deaf -her message should carry on even though she is no longer with us. " Our hope and our goal is to mainstream these children into their local kindergartens " Kanter -Executive Director Summit Speech School. " children with apraxia appear to benefit from the same therapies as their hearing impaired peers " http://www.cherab.org/news/insideedition.html ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ And the archives are funny to read -here is one where I say I didn't believe Tanner will still be " top in the class " due to the type of school: I would strongly advise to do the extra year of preschool and start your child at 6 in all day mainstream kindergarten unless you are positive that he is ready now. And when ready I would try to have him start out right in the mainstream all day. In Dakota's kindergarten class the children that were integrated in from the contained class did come in -but it's not the same as just having them be in the one class all day. The public school talked about starting Tanner in a self contained class for kindergarten while his private school therapists and teachers as well as Glenn and I and his doctors pushed for mainstream. My point was -if he can't make it in kindergarten " it's not rocket science class " -what age do you suggest starting them in the mainstream? Once they start kindergarten -you will not want to hold them back either -they make friends. I found the other children to be a great inspiration and help to both my boys Dakota and Tanner. I can tell you that in Tanner's case it ends up the old public school was wrong and his parents, MDs and regular therapists and teachers knew best. (is that a shock to anyone?) My thought was and still is give the kid a chance to prove he can do it. Speech problems do not have to be an indication of academic ability. Tanner started mainstream kindergarten at 6 -and he was one of the top in his class -which is the best feeling in the world. Tanner will this year however be entering first grade in a private accelerated academics school with children that were fluent readers and writers since kindergarten -so well advanced of the public school expectations -so Tanner will no longer be top in the class. I believe Tanner will push to keep up and succeed -that's the way he is. I we will help him too. (we have a tutor for him already) Why the push? The more ignorance I learn about speech and language disorders the more I believe that the sooner Tanner learns to write and type his complex thoughts that he can't yet express -the better. There is still such negative opinion overall of those who don't speak well -and very little in the way of appropriate IQ testing for the older school age children. And may want to quote this: " Studies of non-poverty children in different types of preschool are simply not definitive, but suggestive. One study by Hirsh Pasek and Cone compared the children who had attended an academic preschool with those who had attended a developmentally appropriate program. Although there were no academic differences between the groups, the children attending the academic program were more anxious and had lower self esteem. These result attentuated after the children began to attend public school. An older study, was carried out by Carelton Washburn, the famed ton Illinois educator. He had different classes of children introduced to reading at different grade levels from kindergarten to second grade. The children who were introduced to reading at these three levels were then retested when they were in junior high school. They were assessed by raters who did not know at what grade level reading instruction had commenced. What Washburn found was there was little difference between the level of reading achievement among the groups. The children who had been introduced to reading late, however, were more motivated and spontaneous readers than those who had begun early. Similar findings were reported in the Plowden Report in England which compared children from the informal schools of rural areas with children who attended the more formal schools of urban centers. " http://www.educationnext.org/unabridged/20012/elkind.html Happy Holidays! ===== Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 21, 2006 Report Share Posted April 21, 2006 I was just attending yesterday a workshop on inclusive schools by White. It was excellent. Segregating children with disabilities into special schools leads to segregated lives. They should be able to attend classes with other children, make friendships with other children, and develop networks in the community that will continue to sustain them throughout their lives...this is how adults find employment most frequently. You might want to consider fighting them about this. And if she needs a full day program, either fight them about it, or tell them all her therapies have to be scheduled after school hours without pulling her out of regular classes. Peace, Kathy E. > > My 4 dd is starting her transition process to K. Diagnosed Apraxia. > she also has some physical limits and wears AFO's (braces on her > feet). She uses signs and will have a communication device that will > speak for her.Her annual meeting is early May. We live in NY. MY ??? > is other special ed teachers not involved in her care suggested I see > the program the School District wants her in before the meeting..makes > sense! What the SD didnt tell me is that I dont have to send her to > their program in our grade schools. She can continue in a special ed > school, just like the preschool she's in now, but continues till high > school age. most are for autistic or mentally retarded. has anyone > chosen one over the other? why? i dont know if she will get all her > services, sp, ot, pt..in the SD program opposed to a special school. > and they also may not have a full day program, which shes been doing > for two years!! > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 21, 2006 Report Share Posted April 21, 2006 , you know you had me on your side (meaning pro-keeping Ben in preschool another year) on this question, except for two factors which have become more and more apparent over the past two years: 1) The kid is huge for his age. He towers over the other children and looks two years older than he really is. There is a danger of social problems or even of his being seen as a bully when frustration gets too high. 2) He is obviously very bright and has been bored out of his skull the past year especially in Head Start and is looking forward to more academic challenge. I don't know what we would do with him if we didn't send him to K this year. He is probably academically ready to start first grade. He is a computer whiz and mentors the other children in how to use computers. Of course, his language and social-emotional level is much lower. So what do you do? Peace, Kathy E. -- In , " kiddietalk " <kiddietalk@...> wrote: > > I don't know what type of testing your child has gone through, nor > who paid for it (private too?) but it concerns me deeply that a > school for " mentally retarded " children is even suggested as an > appropriate option for your child. Too many in the speech impaired > world fall through the cracks. Not talking doesn't mean not > thinking! Has anyone at all suggested the option of waiting one > more year to start kindergarten? Who really cares if a child starts > at 5 vs 6? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 21, 2006 Report Share Posted April 21, 2006 Must be an apraxia thing (just kidding) but Tanner too is off the charts for his age and has always been. In fact when he was 3 when he went to a geneticist to rule out any syndromes they X rayed his wrist to test bone age to see if he had the syndrome where his bones were " older " then his chronological age. His bones were younger! A funny story was while Tanner was 3 years old and in preschool he went with me to Dakota's school for a PTA meeting where a table of goodies was set up for the parents. Tanner was over at the table looking at all the goodies and a teacher from the school walked up to him and firmly said " Young man, please go back to your classroom. " And I had to run over to let her know he was only 3 (she was shocked of course as most are) In Tanner's school today he TOWERS over his classmates. Actually his best friend is sleeping over tonight and Tanner looks like he's much older. Tanner in 3rd grade is the same size as the 6th graders in the school. And a problem? No way at all there! Tanner is wanted on all the sports teams and all the coaches have their eyes on him. Football, soccer, basketball -you name it. He is never teased at all (seriously, other than what would be in the norm) So the size I see as an asset for sure. And no -Tanner has never ever been viewed as a bully by anyone. He is viewed as popular, fun loving, caring, and even a " sweet child " . (words other use to describe him to me) As far as being very bright -Tanner who is in 3rd is tested at a solid 4th grade level and in some areas he doing 5th grade level work ....but for verbal communication, he is still working hard to catch up to " normal " . The 3rd grade is not perfect for him, but I believe better than 4th grade. He is catching up as far as I see it, and best? His self esteem is high and he thinks school is " fun " Thing is that Tanner's in an academically advanced school so it's not really like a typical 3rd grade. He is learning to speak and sing some songs in Chinese even! (an no I have no idea if he speaks OK in that language!) So that's an option -an advanced placement. Options are never crystal clear of course, but I base my views on both research for children with delays in any area as well as responses from this group over the years. As always kindergarten isn't the real test. Not sure what the public school kindergarten class is like where you are in Florida, but I know the way the one is Jersey was and the one here in Florida was and in both cases it wasn't much different than what Tanner was learning in the incredible preschool he went to at Summit Speech School in New Providence, NJ. I wouldn't use the word challenge for either program I saw. I've heard a bit more is expected now in kindergarten but perhaps more is expected in the better preschools as well. Personally I believe in our society today we are putting far too much emphasis on academics for preschool children and not enough on play. I've posted in the past many research studies on the importance of it and in countries that don't start kindergarten till 7 due to those studies I'm sure some of those children are genius level. Probably some of those children aren't even in any preschool until that point. What I'm saying is that the options are probably a bit broader than you think. Look outside the box to other options for schools or programs. See if you can examine the kindergarten and first grade programs at his school. You'll know as his very knowledgeable grandma if he's ready for mainstream now...or would a bit more time be best for more therapy and development? I also feel this way because I started Dakota in kindergarten at 5 and Tanner at 6. Dakota is tested at 99% -but is very immature and I deeply regret starting him at 5 -especially since he's a July 30th baby so a very young 5 at that. Don't get me wrong -he's a great student and very popular with other kids in his class, but he's had behavior problems due to him being more immature than his classmates that started in kindergarten " Mrs. Geng all the other children sit up nicely during story time on the rug and your son is sprawled out on the rug " " Well you do appreciate that Dakota is a year to two younger than all of his classmates because nobody told me that people in this town don't start their children in kindergarten until 6 here for academic and athletic reasons " (we had just moved there) Tanner being older and taller and more mature than his classmates has been such a cool thing. Wouldn't trade it for anything. Then again some things you can teach or advice, and other things you have to follow your gut and learn yourself. Like others you may find out the hard way that what I'm saying makes sense even though you doubt it now. But as you'll find in the archives you can always pull the child out of kindergarten at 5 and put them into another program until they are 6. There are as well a handful of parents like on who started their child at 5 who are doing well. In this group that is the exception not the rule. It's making sure your child is ready for 1st grade and beyond in the mainstream of not just school -but life, with self esteem in tack. That's the key. And if anyone will know what will be best -I have faith that you will find the best and most appropriate way. ===== Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 22, 2006 Report Share Posted April 22, 2006 " Personally I believe in our society today we are putting far too much emphasis on academics for preschool children and not enough on play. " AMEN!!! In my area, schools are very proud of themselves for teaching reading in kindergarten and some kindergartners have an HOUR of homework a night! My friends' " typical " kids are struggling with this and rebelling against it, but so many parents think it's academically challenging and will make their kids smart. The more I learn about how children learn and develop, the more I think it's just inappropriate. > > Must be an apraxia thing (just kidding) but Tanner too is off the > charts for his age and has always been. In fact when he was 3 when > he went to a geneticist to rule out any syndromes they X rayed his > wrist to test bone age to see if he had the syndrome where his bones > were " older " then his chronological age. His bones were younger! > > A funny story was while Tanner was 3 years old and in preschool he > went with me to Dakota's school for a PTA meeting where a table of > goodies was set up for the parents. Tanner was over at the table > looking at all the goodies and a teacher from the school walked up > to him and firmly said " Young man, please go back to your > classroom. " And I had to run over to let her know he was only 3 > (she was shocked of course as most are) > > In Tanner's school today he TOWERS over his classmates. Actually > his best friend is sleeping over tonight and Tanner looks like > he's much older. Tanner in 3rd grade is the same size as the 6th > graders in the school. And a problem? No way at all there! Tanner > is wanted on all the sports teams and all the coaches have their > eyes on him. Football, soccer, basketball -you name it. He is > never teased at all (seriously, other than what would be in the > norm) So the size I see as an asset for sure. And no -Tanner has > never ever been viewed as a bully by anyone. He is viewed as > popular, fun loving, caring, and even a " sweet child " . (words other > use to describe him to me) > > As far as being very bright -Tanner who is in 3rd is tested at a > solid 4th grade level and in some areas he doing 5th grade level > work ....but for verbal communication, he is still working hard > to catch up to " normal " . The 3rd grade is not perfect for him, but I > believe better than 4th grade. He is catching up as far as I see > it, and best? His self esteem is high and he thinks school is " fun " > > Thing is that Tanner's in an academically advanced school so it's > not really like a typical 3rd grade. He is learning to speak and > sing some songs in Chinese even! (an no I have no idea if he speaks > OK in that language!) So that's an option -an advanced placement. > > Options are never crystal clear of course, but I base my views on > both research for children with delays in any area as well as > responses from this group over the years. > > As always kindergarten isn't the real test. Not sure what the > public school kindergarten class is like where you are in Florida, > but I know the way the one is Jersey was and the one here in Florida > was and in both cases it wasn't much different than what Tanner was > learning in the incredible preschool he went to at Summit Speech > School in New Providence, NJ. I wouldn't use the word challenge for > either program I saw. I've heard a bit more is expected now in > kindergarten but perhaps more is expected in the better preschools > as well. > > Personally I believe in our society today we are putting far too > much emphasis on academics for preschool children and not enough on > play. I've posted in the past many research studies on the > importance of it and in countries that don't start kindergarten till > 7 due to those studies I'm sure some of those children are genius > level. Probably some of those children aren't even in any preschool > until that point. > > What I'm saying is that the options are probably a bit broader than > you think. Look outside the box to other options for schools or > programs. See if you can examine the kindergarten and first grade > programs at his school. You'll know as his very knowledgeable > grandma if he's ready for mainstream now...or would a bit more time > be best for more therapy and development? > > I also feel this way because I started Dakota in kindergarten at 5 > and Tanner at 6. Dakota is tested at 99% -but is very immature and > I deeply regret starting him at 5 -especially since he's a July 30th > baby so a very young 5 at that. Don't get me wrong -he's a great > student and very popular with other kids in his class, but he's had > behavior problems due to him being more immature than his classmates > that started in kindergarten " Mrs. Geng all the other children sit > up nicely during story time on the rug and your son is sprawled out > on the rug " " Well you do appreciate that Dakota is a year to two > younger than all of his classmates because nobody told me that > people in this town don't start their children in kindergarten until > 6 here for academic and athletic reasons " (we had just moved there) > Tanner being older and taller and more mature than his classmates > has been such a cool thing. Wouldn't trade it for anything. > > Then again some things you can teach or advice, and other things you > have to follow your gut and learn yourself. Like others you may > find out the hard way that what I'm saying makes sense even though > you doubt it now. But as you'll find in the archives you can always > pull the child out of kindergarten at 5 and put them into another > program until they are 6. There are as well a handful of parents > like on who started their child at 5 who are doing > well. In this group that is the exception not the rule. > > It's making sure your child is ready for 1st grade and beyond in the > mainstream of not just school -but life, with self esteem in tack. > That's the key. And if anyone will know what will be best -I have > faith that you will find the best and most appropriate way. > > ===== > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 22, 2006 Report Share Posted April 22, 2006 I teach English as a foreign language to young children (2-12), and my observation has been that there are a few children who are ready to read at five or six, but the majority are not. Most children are ready to learn the sounds of the alphabet by this age, but moving on to more complex phonics is a big leap. Schools here in Japan do not teach academics in kindergarten. The emphasis here is on social skills, group play and circle time participation, with various play stations for kids to experiment and learn as they follow their own inclinations. I think the kindergartens here do a great job, though I feel advanced kids would benefit from academic supplementing at home. If you have a child who knew his colors, shapes, the alphabet and their sounds before the age of two, for example, this play format might be fun, but not particularly appropriate. The problem is arbitrarily setting up one age for all children to be doing the same thing at the same time. Kids just don't develop that way. But it would probably cost too much money to provide both academic and play-format options for parents. That is why I am in favor of a low-academic state-run program at the kindergarten level. I think parents of especially advanced kids usually have the resources to add academics to their home environment as a supplement. It doesn't cost so much money to use a library, for example. > AMEN!!! In my area, schools are very proud of themselves for > teaching reading in kindergarten and some kindergartners have an > HOUR of homework a night! My friends' " typical " kids are struggling > with this and rebelling against it, but so many parents think it's > academically challenging and will make their kids smart. The more I > learn about how children learn and develop, the more I think it's > just inappropriate. > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 23, 2006 Report Share Posted April 23, 2006 , I forgot to mention factor number three: at least two months ago he made it very clear that he KNEW he was being evaluated to see whether he was ready for kindergarten while he was in Head Start and ALREADY would consider it a failure if he didn't go. Nobody in the family told him this, he picked it up in school. Fortunately, the Charter School where he is going to go teaches each child as an individual and is much better at that than the local public schools. I believe I told you also, on the phone, that in aftercare he hit somebody the other day. I just started him on a children's probiotic because some of his tests came back that he had yeast (high arabinose on organic acid urine test) so he may be having die-off at the moment. Today we had a very strange day. He started to do some computer puzzles with his mother in the morning before I took him to church, so he was missing his mother at church. At Sunday school he wanted to be the " line leader " and hold the door open for the other children but another smaller child beat him to it, and he had a meltdown, so we left early. His Sunday school teacher didn't understand why it was important to him, and felt he needed to share the job (which actually his father agreed with.) I have never heard him talking the way he was talking at that point, wishing all his friends were dead and he could go live in a forest. Then I went home, and his father wanted to go get a better hedge trimmer at Lowe's...and while we were waiting in line, he actually bit my arm through two thick layers of knit material--unfortunately because of my age my skin is so thin that I was bleeding and have a raw spot now. He is usually not aggressive but...he felt terrible that he had hurt me. He kissed the bandaid and gave me a hug, but it didn't make him feel much better. So the question of whether he could start bullying behavior is not out of the question, especially if he got that kind of a reputation. He is the kind of the child who if you tell somebody he does something, will definitely live up to it. He was NEVER aggressive in Day Care before he started Head Start. Then we got home and the puppy--who was playing with the other dog and Ben's puppy and usually does fine...had blood all over his ear and had to go to the vet's and get a staple in his ear, emergency fee and all. Fortunately Ben didn't see the dog with the bloody ear, that would have been all we needed. I do think his size could be a problem, despite your experience with Tanner. Especially if the adults around start to blame him for things, whether or not he actually did them. Peace, Kathy E. > > Must be an apraxia thing (just kidding) but Tanner too is off the > charts for his age and has always been. In fact when he was 3 when > he went to a geneticist to rule out any syndromes they X rayed his > wrist to test bone age to see if he had the syndrome where his bones > were " older " then his chronological age. His bones were younger! > > A funny story was while Tanner was 3 years old and in preschool he > went with me to Dakota's school for a PTA meeting where a table of > goodies was set up for the parents. Tanner was over at the table > looking at all the goodies and a teacher from the school walked up > to him and firmly said " Young man, please go back to your > classroom. " And I had to run over to let her know he was only 3 > (she was shocked of course as most are) > > In Tanner's school today he TOWERS over his classmates. Actually > his best friend is sleeping over tonight and Tanner looks like > he's much older. Tanner in 3rd grade is the same size as the 6th > graders in the school. And a problem? No way at all there! Tanner > is wanted on all the sports teams and all the coaches have their > eyes on him. Football, soccer, basketball -you name it. He is > never teased at all (seriously, other than what would be in the > norm) So the size I see as an asset for sure. And no -Tanner has > never ever been viewed as a bully by anyone. He is viewed as > popular, fun loving, caring, and even a " sweet child " . (words other > use to describe him to me) > > As far as being very bright -Tanner who is in 3rd is tested at a > solid 4th grade level and in some areas he doing 5th grade level > work ....but for verbal communication, he is still working hard > to catch up to " normal " . The 3rd grade is not perfect for him, but I > believe better than 4th grade. He is catching up as far as I see > it, and best? His self esteem is high and he thinks school is " fun " > > Thing is that Tanner's in an academically advanced school so it's > not really like a typical 3rd grade. He is learning to speak and > sing some songs in Chinese even! (an no I have no idea if he speaks > OK in that language!) So that's an option -an advanced placement. > > Options are never crystal clear of course, but I base my views on > both research for children with delays in any area as well as > responses from this group over the years. > > As always kindergarten isn't the real test. Not sure what the > public school kindergarten class is like where you are in Florida, > but I know the way the one is Jersey was and the one here in Florida > was and in both cases it wasn't much different than what Tanner was > learning in the incredible preschool he went to at Summit Speech > School in New Providence, NJ. I wouldn't use the word challenge for > either program I saw. I've heard a bit more is expected now in > kindergarten but perhaps more is expected in the better preschools > as well. > > Personally I believe in our society today we are putting far too > much emphasis on academics for preschool children and not enough on > play. I've posted in the past many research studies on the > importance of it and in countries that don't start kindergarten till > 7 due to those studies I'm sure some of those children are genius > level. Probably some of those children aren't even in any preschool > until that point. > > What I'm saying is that the options are probably a bit broader than > you think. Look outside the box to other options for schools or > programs. See if you can examine the kindergarten and first grade > programs at his school. You'll know as his very knowledgeable > grandma if he's ready for mainstream now...or would a bit more time > be best for more therapy and development? > > I also feel this way because I started Dakota in kindergarten at 5 > and Tanner at 6. Dakota is tested at 99% -but is very immature and > I deeply regret starting him at 5 -especially since he's a July 30th > baby so a very young 5 at that. Don't get me wrong -he's a great > student and very popular with other kids in his class, but he's had > behavior problems due to him being more immature than his classmates > that started in kindergarten " Mrs. Geng all the other children sit > up nicely during story time on the rug and your son is sprawled out > on the rug " " Well you do appreciate that Dakota is a year to two > younger than all of his classmates because nobody told me that > people in this town don't start their children in kindergarten until > 6 here for academic and athletic reasons " (we had just moved there) > Tanner being older and taller and more mature than his classmates > has been such a cool thing. Wouldn't trade it for anything. > > Then again some things you can teach or advice, and other things you > have to follow your gut and learn yourself. Like others you may > find out the hard way that what I'm saying makes sense even though > you doubt it now. But as you'll find in the archives you can always > pull the child out of kindergarten at 5 and put them into another > program until they are 6. There are as well a handful of parents > like on who started their child at 5 who are doing > well. In this group that is the exception not the rule. > > It's making sure your child is ready for 1st grade and beyond in the > mainstream of not just school -but life, with self esteem in tack. > That's the key. And if anyone will know what will be best -I have > faith that you will find the best and most appropriate way. > > ===== > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 23, 2006 Report Share Posted April 23, 2006 Hi Kathy, Factor number 3 1/2 concerns me -not factor number 3. It appears to me getting him out of Head Start one way or another may answer many problems. No problem for factor number 3. At his age it's easy enough to pull the wool over his eyes still -for his own good of course. " you are so bright you tested into the ____ (fill in the blank) school this year! Isn't that exciting Benny?! " (just have to find the right advanced placement for him with or without kindergarten starting this year) Honestly nobody knows with all you've said what would happen if he was pulled out of Head Start and started kindergarten right away. Would the new negative behaviors fade away and would he go back to the way he was before...which was not aggressive? Would this be something to examine with a professional? Or was this a one time thing? Adapted from Clinical Practice Guidelines Communication Disorders III 22-25 In addition, the policy statement from the neurology journal Neurology, (August, 2000), states that Absolute Indications for Immediate Evaluation include, · No babbling or pointing or other gestures by twelve months · No single words by sixteen months · No two-word spontaneous phrases by twenty-four months · Any loss of any language or social skills at any age. The aggressive behaviors just started since the Head Start program? With severe regression I'd examine and/or look to pull the child out immediately from such a program. What's going on there? http://parentcenter.babycenter.com/refcap/bigkid/gdevelopment/1388463.html The reaction to other children is normal even though most don't go into death at 5 since there are many 5 year olds who really don't understand what that means yet. Many young children can scream " I hate you " one minute and " I love you " the next. I found this article on the " I hate you " part http://parentcenter.babycenter.com/expert/bigkid/gbehavior/70955.html What concerns me is that he bit you, his adored grandmother, hard enough to draw blood. Were you just standing there minding your own business when this happened? Did he know/say why he bit you? Was he aware he was biting you while he was doing it? Did you try to stop him while he was doing it and did he seem aware to you of what he was doing? Did he go through a biting phase during the normal preschool years? They say about 10% of toddlers bite. http://www.pkids.org/08-03biting.pdf My children never did so I'm not as aware of this -have to search. I do know that any aggressive behavior today is taken serious in public schools. Zero tolerance means just that, and while an aggressive child has a right to be educated, all children have a right to feel safe while being schooled. Biting that leaves marks is bad enough. Biting that breaks the skin is serious as you know. Is he aware of right and wrong and is he capable of control? If you started him in kindergarten this year and he gets frustrated with other children will he know not to bite/lash at them or the teacher? Being viewed as a bully because a child is tall in comparison to peers is different than the child who actually is a bully and may require some behavioral methods of therapy (yes this is another exception where behavioral therapy may be needed). What would happen if he does bite and draw blood even if he was the youngest and smallest in the class? In most schools I know he would be suspended -no question about that. Perhaps the aggressive behavior is due to Head Start. And perhaps this is just again a one time thing. I do hope that's what it is. FIGHTING AND BITING http://www.aacap.org/publications/factsfam/81.htm Interesting Time Magazine article Does Kindergarten Need Cops? The youngest schoolkids are acting out in really outrageous ways. Why? http://www.time.com/time/archive/preview/0,10987,556865,00.html or full article here http://susanohanian.org/show_atrocities.html?id=1522 ===== Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 23, 2006 Report Share Posted April 23, 2006 Was in a rush so didn't really read through this article at first but did before I closed out my computer and look what I found!! " In addition, many educators worry about rising academic pressure in kindergarten and first grade in anticipation of the yearly tests demanded by the No Child Left Behind Act. In Texas, which has led the nation in embracing such tests, most kindergartens now go the full day, yet some have eliminated recess or limited it to 15 minutes a day. " It's a mistake to focus exclusively on academic readiness, " says Hinshaw, chair-elect of the psychology department at University of California, Berkeley. " Even more vital than early reading, " he says, " is the learning of play skills, which form the foundation of cognitive skills. " Hinshaw points out that in Europe, kids often aren't taught to read until age 7. Insisting that they read at 5, he says, " puts undue pressure on a child. " Eerie huh? Or should I say deja vu from this morning's message I sent here or what? Guess I'll just say " As I was saying... " > Interesting Time Magazine article > Does Kindergarten Need Cops? > The youngest schoolkids are acting out in really outrageous ways. > Why? > http://www.time.com/time/archive/preview/0,10987,556865,00.html > or full article here > http://susanohanian.org/show_atrocities.html?id=1522 ===== Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 24, 2006 Report Share Posted April 24, 2006 Maybe I haven't made myself clear enough...no, Head Start itself isn't the problem. He is/ was never aggressive there during school hours. He had an excellent teacher there for the past two years until they moved her earlier this week. He is ONLY aggressive in the after-care program which has day care providers instead of teachers, and then this anger yesterday which seemed to relate to our adamant refusal to " buy him a toy " to assuage his hurt feelings and naughty words regarding the Sunday school incident, which of course we were not about to do. I don't think he had any idea what he was doing when he bit me, we were waiting in line and not even interacting at the time, so I don't think it was consciously aggressive. It may have been he thought he was only biting my jacket. I was holding his hand, not looking at him. However a bite that is hard enough to draw blood is triply dangerous...for him because if he does it again he could be in real trouble, for me (because I have an immune deficiency (genetic) and am elderly my skin is extremely frail and doesn't heal well). And for possible damage to his own self-esteem. He used to be pretty non-social (would scream if other kids were at the playground) but lately has been wanting more and more to make friends, to play with them, is very disappointed if nobody else is at the playground, etc. Had his first play-date on Good Friday. His desire to hold the door open for the other children is a desire to be contributing and it was a substitute Sunday School teacher who pulled him aside to stop him and " try " to explain why Darryl got to do it this time, which I am sure made absolutely no sense to him. I have no doubt that he has elements of an autism spectrum kid even without a diagnosis. I have some considerable doubts about his ability to control himself, especially if he feels sick. He was very depressed for hours yesterday afternoon according to his daddy, so I think he probably does know right from wrong. What does concern me is that this might get him placed where he doesn't belong, in a self-contained classroom which would only make these behaviors MUCH worse. When I raise some of the questions with the Head Start administrators they say, he has come a LONG way, he will be OK. The way they encouraged the aggressive behaviors in aftercare was to stupidly tell him that if he hit other kids (when he was beginning to be interested in social interaction with them)--his grandma would come and pick him up. He tried that for several days last spring and I made sure it didn't work. I went there and stayed. When he did that again last week and I called him on the phone he said, " YOU DIDN'T COME! " So I guess he still has not forgotten this. He certainly seems to be trying to get my attention. On the other hand, when he was having OT it was clear that he had a tactile hyposensitivity himself and he used to bite his own hand (never broke the skin, but the problem there is my skin is frail. A tiny scratch bleeds all over the place.) I don't have an option of taking him out of Head Start and putting him anywhere, except keeping him at my house. And I am not really physically able to do that. Being suspended or expelled would be OK next to a self-contained classroom and might end up meaning he would be home-schooled. By whom, I have no idea since his daddy has to work and his mommy can't watch him for 20 minutes ordinarily. And I can't even get anybody in to help me with housework. One of my helpers from assisted living already called this morning and said she is too sick to come this week. The other one's son was hit by a car on Good Friday and his ankle badly broken. Nothing is working around here right now. Peace, Kathy E. > > > Honestly nobody knows with all you've said what would happen if he > was pulled out of Head Start and started kindergarten right away. > Would the new negative behaviors fade away and would he go back to > the way he was before...which was not aggressive? Would this be > something to examine with a professional? Or was this a one time > thing? > > Adapted from Clinical Practice Guidelines Communication Disorders > III 22-25 > In addition, the policy statement from the neurology journal > Neurology, (August, 2000), states that Absolute Indications for > Immediate Evaluation include, > · No babbling or pointing or other gestures by twelve months · No > single words by sixteen months · No two-word spontaneous phrases by > twenty-four months · Any loss of any language or social skills at > any age. > > The aggressive behaviors just started since the Head Start > program? With severe regression I'd examine and/or look to pull > the child out immediately from such a program. What's going on > there? > http://parentcenter.babycenter.com/refcap/bigkid/gdevelopment/1388463.html > > The reaction to other children is normal even though most don't go > into death at 5 since there are many 5 year olds who really don't > understand what that means yet. Many young children can scream " I > hate you " one minute and " I love you " the next. I found this > article on the " I hate you " part > http://parentcenter.babycenter.com/expert/bigkid/gbehavior/70955.html > > What concerns me is that he bit you, his adored grandmother, hard > enough to draw blood. Were you just standing there minding your own > business when this happened? Did he know/say why he bit you? Was > he aware he was biting you while he was doing it? Did you try to > stop him while he was doing it and did he seem aware to you of what > he was doing? Did he go through a biting phase during the normal > preschool years? They say about 10% of toddlers bite. > http://www.pkids.org/08-03biting.pdf My children never did so I'm > not as aware of this -have to search. I do know that any aggressive > behavior today is taken serious in public schools. Zero tolerance > means just that, and while an aggressive child has a right to be > educated, all children have a right to feel safe while being > schooled. Biting that leaves marks is bad enough. Biting that > breaks the skin is serious as you know. > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 24, 2006 Report Share Posted April 24, 2006 They are not even allowing elementary school kids to have recess any more, which is damaging the development of their brains and academics as well as social development. See: http://tinyurl.com/k4hlu which is an excellent review article. Peace, Kathy E, > > Was in a rush so didn't really read through this article at first > but did before I closed out my computer and look what I found!! > > " In addition, many educators worry about rising academic pressure in > kindergarten and first grade in anticipation of the yearly tests > demanded by the No Child Left Behind Act. In Texas, which has led > the nation in embracing such tests, most kindergartens now go the > full day, yet some have eliminated recess or limited it to 15 > minutes a day. " It's a mistake to focus exclusively on academic > readiness, " says Hinshaw, chair-elect of the psychology > department at University of California, Berkeley. " Even more vital > than early reading, " he says, " is the learning of play skills, which > form the foundation of cognitive skills. " Hinshaw points out that in > Europe, kids often aren't taught to read until age 7. Insisting that > they read at 5, he says, " puts undue pressure on a child. " > > Eerie huh? Or should I say deja vu from this morning's message I > sent here or what? Guess I'll just say " As I was saying... " > > > Interesting Time Magazine article > > Does Kindergarten Need Cops? > > The youngest schoolkids are acting out in really outrageous ways. > > Why? > > http://www.time.com/time/archive/preview/0,10987,556865,00.html > > or full article here > > http://susanohanian.org/show_atrocities.html?id=1522 > > ===== > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 24, 2006 Report Share Posted April 24, 2006 One of the articles you sent mentioned the loss of a parent or other trauma...his beloved preschool teacher's sudden removal could have been part of this. However I called his new head teacher, who was the aide for the past two years and always understood him and discovered something: It has been the policy there (at school) for Ben to have " jobs " like holding the door open for the other kids, and these jobs are his exclusive prerogative and everybody knows it. If something happens that disrupts this routine, it upsets him for the rest of the day. So when he wasn't allowed to be the doorkeeper to let the children into Sunday School, and was told he had to share this job, it was extremely upsetting to him. And that's what set us up for all the rest...sameness is a autism spectrum trait. Peace, Kathy E. > > Hi Kathy, > > Factor number 3 1/2 concerns me -not factor number 3. > > It appears to me getting him out of Head Start one way or another > may answer many problems. No problem for factor number 3. At his > age it's easy enough to pull the wool over his eyes still -for his > own good of course. " you are so bright you tested into the ____ > (fill in the blank) school this year! Isn't that exciting Benny?! " > (just have to find the right advanced placement for him with or > without kindergarten starting this year) > > Honestly nobody knows with all you've said what would happen if he > was pulled out of Head Start and started kindergarten right away. > Would the new negative behaviors fade away and would he go back to > the way he was before...which was not aggressive? Would this be > something to examine with a professional? Or was this a one time > thing? > > Adapted from Clinical Practice Guidelines Communication Disorders > III 22-25 > In addition, the policy statement from the neurology journal > Neurology, (August, 2000), states that Absolute Indications for > Immediate Evaluation include, > · No babbling or pointing or other gestures by twelve months · No > single words by sixteen months · No two-word spontaneous phrases by > twenty-four months · Any loss of any language or social skills at > any age. > > The aggressive behaviors just started since the Head Start > program? With severe regression I'd examine and/or look to pull > the child out immediately from such a program. What's going on > there? > http://parentcenter.babycenter.com/refcap/bigkid/gdevelopment/1388463.html > > The reaction to other children is normal even though most don't go > into death at 5 since there are many 5 year olds who really don't > understand what that means yet. Many young children can scream " I > hate you " one minute and " I love you " the next. I found this > article on the " I hate you " part > http://parentcenter.babycenter.com/expert/bigkid/gbehavior/70955.html > > What concerns me is that he bit you, his adored grandmother, hard > enough to draw blood. Were you just standing there minding your own > business when this happened? Did he know/say why he bit you? Was > he aware he was biting you while he was doing it? Did you try to > stop him while he was doing it and did he seem aware to you of what > he was doing? Did he go through a biting phase during the normal > preschool years? They say about 10% of toddlers bite. > http://www.pkids.org/08-03biting.pdf My children never did so I'm > not as aware of this -have to search. I do know that any aggressive > behavior today is taken serious in public schools. Zero tolerance > means just that, and while an aggressive child has a right to be > educated, all children have a right to feel safe while being > schooled. Biting that leaves marks is bad enough. Biting that > breaks the skin is serious as you know. > > Is he aware of right and wrong and is he capable of control? If you > started him in kindergarten this year and he gets frustrated with > other children will he know not to bite/lash at them or the > teacher? > > Being viewed as a bully because a child is tall in comparison to > peers is different than the child who actually is a bully and may > require some behavioral methods of therapy (yes this is another > exception where behavioral therapy may be needed). What would > happen if he does bite and draw blood even if he was the youngest > and smallest in the class? In most schools I know he would be > suspended -no question about that. > > Perhaps the aggressive behavior is due to Head Start. And perhaps > this is just again a one time thing. I do hope that's what it is. > > > FIGHTING AND BITING > http://www.aacap.org/publications/factsfam/81.htm > > Interesting Time Magazine article > Does Kindergarten Need Cops? > The youngest schoolkids are acting out in really outrageous ways. > Why? > http://www.time.com/time/archive/preview/0,10987,556865,00.html > or full article here > http://susanohanian.org/show_atrocities.html?id=1522 > > > > ===== > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 24, 2006 Report Share Posted April 24, 2006 I have a sevem year old daughter who was in a BOCES class for Kindergarten. The class was in a regular elementary school and not a BOCES school. Our school district started a K-1 program similar to the BOCES program this past year. We moved our daughter to the district program this year. It has been a more positive experience to have her in the district program. She was able to get counseling (social skills), speech, OT and PT in both programs. We have a four year old daughter that has similar issues, but not as severe. We are not sure if she will be in a regular class next year or the special class that her sister is currently in. Next year, the special class is supposed to be broken into two classes-K and 1st grade. The special class is all day. The regular program is transitional K. The students attend half day in either a morning or afternoon session until the December vacation. When they return to school, the morning and afternoon classes for each teacher combine into one class. The children attend school until around 1 pm and have lunch and recess at school. The last week of January, the children attend school all day. If my daughter attends the regular transitional K, I am not sure how the school district will fit all her services in, but her preschool has been able to do it in a 2 and a half hour program. I would suggest visiting the program before your IEP meeting if at all possible. You can see if the program will meet your daughter's needs.Is the program at mosense <mosense@...> wrote: My 4 dd is starting her transition process to K. Diagnosed Apraxia. she also has some physical limits and wears AFO's (braces on her feet). She uses signs and will have a communication device that will speak for her.Her annual meeting is early May. We live in NY. MY ??? is other special ed teachers not involved in her care suggested I see the program the School District wants her in before the meeting..makes sense! What the SD didnt tell me is that I dont have to send her to their program in our grade schools. She can continue in a special ed school, just like the preschool she's in now, but continues till high school age. most are for autistic or mentally retarded. has anyone chosen one over the other? why? i dont know if she will get all her services, sp, ot, pt..in the SD program opposed to a special school. and they also may not have a full day program, which shes been doing for two years!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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