RE: Acting Out since starting E

September 5, 2006

I know exactly what you mean. Actually I meant to comment on the

lack of facial expression. That has been something we have noticed

in the last 2-3 weeks - ph's face is totally different. Although

I treasured his smile before - it was always a weak smile and he

generally " looked " sad or serious, even though he was actually a

very happy kid. Now his face lights up with expression. But all this

expression makes him look like a different child. -

> We experienced a surge in activity when starting omega 3, or with

> dose increases...accompanied by about 2-3 weeks of more difficult,

> crankier behavior...that always improved after the 3rd week. But

> like described...the behavior was just out of character for

my

> son...who was always the most angelic baby - but to the point that

> his good behavior wasn't really normal. I am happy to see him

react

> to other kids taking away his toys now, and expressing emotion.

His

> responses are so much more normal than they used to be. And each

> incidence of " bad " behavior was alway accompanied by a surge in

> speech and coordination, and a " hey, look at what I can do " type

> attitude...rather than passively watching the world pass him by.

> Although we saw this with fish oil...did not see it on the vitamin

> E. You may want to just give it alittle time.

>

> -

>

> > Vicki I suspect too that it's the fish oil that may cause

> > the " aggressive " behavior since we've heard about this before

here

> > and there in the archives. What some consider " hyper "

> > or " aggressive " or " naughty " others consider normal for a 3 year

> > old. I know for my son... he was so " good " and " quiet " prior to

> > EFAs...but too good - not normal. I am strange in that I

welcomed

> his

> > naughtiness -the terrible stage he never went through at 2.

> >

> > Now I'm sure there are those who have children that go beyond

> normal

> > naughtiness, but all you have to do is either reduce the oils or

> > stop them. It's pretty easy to fix. In most cases without

> reducing or stopping, within a few

> > days to a week the " bad " behavior goes away and the speech surges

> > more...but check the archives and you'll read this from others

who

> > may or may not be part of the group anymore. (some who have

> > children doing well don't post often or anymore)

> >

> > I know today most are starting everything all at once...but when

in

> > doubt lower the dosage and/or start with one thing at a time and

> > gradually increase so you can see what is doing what. I mean if

> you

> > start fish oils and E at the same time...how do you know which is

> > creating the surge? For those of us who have had our child on

fish

> > oils for months or years....it's easy to know.

> >

> > And Vicki I know you weren't exactly asking a question, and I

> really

> > hope I don't scare you back to lurk mode (we like you here!) -

but

> to

> > smell like fish from eating fish oil...esp in the amounts we give

> > our children, is something you should look into. It could mean a

> > rare condition. But don't fear....to date out of the now 6

> children

> > in this group who have parents that posted about smelling

> > fishy...none yet have been confirmed with this yet -so you

> > probably have another messy kid who doesn't get 'all' the fish

oil

> > in her mouth! (just a drop to the hair will be pretty stinky!)

> >

> > archive:

> >

> > Re: Walmart's Spring Valley brand of fish oils??

> >

> > Kerri this has come up about four or five times now since this

> group

> > has started, but to date nobody has confirmed the

trimethylaminuria

> > diagnosis. (probably it's all just messy kids!)

> >

> > This was the most recent from from 2004 - can you

update

> > us?

> >

> > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~start of archive

> >

> > Re: a fishy smell...to

> >

> > Hi ,

> >

> > Yes, if I was positive it wasn't just that my son smelled fishy

due

> > to him wiping his mouth with his hand after being given fish

oil -

> > which is oily of course -and then wiping his hand on his body,

> > clothes and through his hair, which would then all stink and in

the

> > case of clothes would not come out that easy -I would stop the

oils

> > right away until I had the test for TRIMETHYLAMINURIA done by my

> > son's pediatrician. TRIMETHYLAMINURIA is an extremely rare

> > diagnosis -and in the few times this subject came up here thus

far

> > the parents found the fishy smell was due to the oils getting on

> the

> > child from an outside source -not an inside one.

> >

> > In the meantime you could try flax seed oil, until you find out

> > more. In addition to fish oil however -you are supposed to avoid

> > all the foods that would create the smell as it reads here:

> >

> > " Cheer up, Hal--I am almost certain the problem is something you

> eat.

> > If that's right, the smell will go away as soon as you stop

eating

> > those foods.

> >

> > To find out, your doctor should test you for trimethylaminuria,

> > which is a long way to say that when you eat fish, eggs, liver,

> > kidney, or soybeans, your body does not digest these things quite

> > the way other bodies do. These foods have a chemical called

choline

> > (say it like KO-leen), which germs in the gut digest into

trimeth-

> > ylamines (just call them TMA). TMA smells fishy--very fishy, in

> > fact.

> >

> > For most people that fishy smell doesn't matter because their

body

> > turns TMA into something else, TMA oxide, which does not smell at

> > all. But in people with trimethylaminuria, their bodies cannot

> > change the TMA. So the TMA comes out in their sweat, urine, and

> > breath, and no matter how much these people scrub, the TMA makes

> > them smelly. Having this problem does not make people sick in any

> > way, but it certainly is embarrassing.

> >

> > You say that sometimes the fishy smell goes away, which makes me

> > think that if you stay away from foods with choline, you'll be

> fine.

> > The worst foods for you would be fish, eggs, liver, and kidney.

> > Avoid them. If that's not enough, then you should also stay away

> > from soybeans, peas, and mayonnaise. (Think of that--a doctor's

> > excuse not to eat liver and tofu!)

> >

> > Eggs, soybeans, and mayonnaise can be hard to avoid, because they

> > are part of many packaged foods. At first, you'll have to think a

> > lot about things like whether a Big Mac has mayonnaise (it does).

> > You and your family will have to read the labels on packages very

> > carefully. But you'll soon learn what you can and cannot eat.

> >

> > This diet is a pain, there's no doubt about that. But it's much

> less

> > of a pain than smelling like rotten fish. "

> > http://www.jhu.edu/~jhumag/496web/derzebra.html

<http://www.jhu.edu/~jhumag/496web/derzebra.html>

> >

> > Please do keep us posted. We hope you have just another messy

kid!

> >

> > =====

> >

September 5, 2006

That is what is affectionately known as a " don't sue me " note. Almost

all manufacturers have them in some way, shape or form. It's their way

of saying " use my product at your own risk " . It is safe to give the

vit. e to kids under 16. It is even included in infant formulas.

It is likely that all products from that same manufacturer/distributor

carry the exact same statement.

Kris

On Sep 5, 2006, at 9:27 AM, KATHYELKAY@... wrote:

> Hi, I have a question about the vit E? I was looking at a bottle of

> Vit E that I have at home, it stated that children under 16 yrs should

> not take them. Is there something different about the Vit E 400 IU

> Apha and 100 IU Gamma? I did not notice my bottle having the 100 IU

> Gamma and the Apha.

>

> Thank you,

>

> Kathy,

> Laurel, MD

> mother to Kayla eight years old, non-verbal

>

> [ ] Re: Acting Out since starting E

>

> Wendi,

>

> My 2 yr old had what seemed like 100 time outs yesterday. I can't

> blame it on the supplements b/c I just started the E tonight and the

> he's been on the fish oils for a while. So maybe he's just acting

> like a 2 yr old? Could yours just be acting like a 3 yr old?? Or

> do you really feel it's the supplements? I sure hope not. I hate

> to think what I might be in for if mine gets any more stubborn!

September 5, 2006

Hi Becky!

It's not exactly that the oil would have to spill out. Even if your

daughter chews the capsules, chances are she will get some oil on

her lips. All she would need to do to smell like a fishing boat is

wipe the back of her hand on her mouth...then wipe her hands on her

clothes or through her hair. I mean unless you have a child that

eats and never gets anything on her lips (and even around her

mouth!) like most. Since the fish oil is not chocolate colored it's

not easy to see...just smell. What I did is give Tanner his fish

oil with a paper towel handy and whether he wanted to wipe his mouth

or not...I made him wipe it each time. You would be amazed that

each time there was a bit of fish oil on his lips even though it

looked like it just went into his mouth and he swallowed it.

Should you test for TRIMETHYLAMINURIA? (isn't it funny that it's all

bolded like it's a Saturday Night Live horror word) Why not wait to

see if the fish smell is there after trying the paper towel thing

for a few days because TRIMETHYLAMINURIA is very very very very very

rare. Because...if she had TRIMETHYLAMINURIA -she'd have signs even

with a little bit of fish or other foods...and you report it's only when you

upped

the dosage (so more of a chance she's not getting it all 100% into

her mouth)

Bounty to the rescue!

As far as the hyperness...is it affecting her social or academic

activities? Is she doing better in other areas...or worse? How

long has she been on the fish oils and would you want to reduce them

(or stop them)? That's typically when most of us see the

regression...and given the choice between not talking and more

hyper, most choose more hyper. I know for us (again) it was a great

thing because Tanner was actually kind of lethargic-just-go-along-

with-everything-with-no-fuss before the EFAs. EFAs calmed my ADHD

child down and gave life to my apraxic one. If for real ADHD is

suspected you can try upping the EPA a bit more to a 1-1 ratio.

That's what has worked best for Dakota my ADHD child -but that's too

high in EPA for my apraxic one. So don't know what to tell you

(raise the EPA 1/2 more?) Good thing it's easy enough to play with

the dosages and no harm in stopping them cold turkey (other than

health reasons that is...meaning you are taking away one of the

healthiest things you could possibly feed your child that also would

give her a head's up in school)

Just one of a zillion trillion articles on this -check the archives

or google or PubMed for many mores.

" The body portion: Feed your child's brain

A study of Kenyan schoolchildren conducted in the 1980s and 1990s

illustrates the idea that our intellect can be shaped by what we eat

and how we use our brains.

UCLA researchers looked at six- to eight-year olds in 1984, then

another, larger group of them in 1998, and noted something amazing:

In just 14 years, their IQs increased more than any other population

ever studied.

What happened?

There were two key factors. The first is that the kids started

getting better nutrition--including more protein, which kept them

alert, energetic, and less prone to anemia, an iron deficiency that

dulls thinking skills.

Even if you don't live in Kenya, there's a good chance your kids

aren't eating what they need for optimal brain performance. For

example, if they're not eating a lot of fish, or taking fish-oil

supplements, then there might be an opportunity for some gains.

Learn More!

• How does nutrition affect your body?

• Make Your Kids Smarter: Top Teacher Tips for Grades K to 8 by

V. Shearin Karres

Foods rich in omega-3 fats--such as salmon, fresh tuna, herring, and

sardine--contain something called eicosapentaenoic acid, or EPA. EPA

does three things: It boosts blood flow to the brain, it helps make

hormones that boost brain function, and it helps boost the immune

system by acting as an anti-inflammatory agent. (A healthy immune

system is important for young children, because illness can wear

them out and impair learning.)

A study published in the journal Pediatrics showed that kids who

took fish-oil supplements, which contain omega-3, showed huge

improvements in spelling, IQ, and reading. Even their behavior got

better.

Typically, kids (and adults) in the United States don't eat a lot of

fish--and therefore are missing out on the benefits. Fish oil isn't

a magic potion, but experts are increasingly agreeing that we need

more in our diets. (A word of caution: Mercury levels are high in

some of these same fatty fish. Mercury--a pollutant from coal plants-

-can cause brain damage and other physical ailments. Many stores now

carry warnings on the most susceptible fish products.) "

http://encarta.msn.com/encnet/departments/elementary/default.aspx?article=twoway\

s

" Which fish oil brands are best for children?

By TANIA ALEXANDER, Daily Mail 14:22pm 6th June 2006

Research proves fish oil tablets can boost your child's brainpower -

but how do you persuade fussy youngsters to take them? Here, an

expert rates the top brands...and our junior panel give their taste

verdict:

Fish oils are the new health 'wonder' food - not a week goes by, it

seems, without yet more research confirming how good they are for

you.

Not only do they help children with learning difficulties such as

dyslexia, ADHD and dyspraxia, and adults with conditions as

schizophrenia and depression, fish oils protect the heart and reduce

the pain of arthritis.

Then last week a study, funded by Boots, found that regular doses of

fish oils dramatically boosted young children's performance at

school. Nearly three quarters of the youngsters - who were of mixed

academic ability - showed improvements in numeracy, reading and

writing after taking fish oil supplements for nine months.

" With no placebo group, we don't know what progress they would have

have made anyway " says Dr , a Senior Research Fellow

from Oxford University. " But these findings are in line with other

evidence that fish oils really can improve behaviour and learning in

many children. "

It is the Omega-3 fatty acids - specifically EPA and DHA - they

contain that make fish oils so beneficial. Unfortunately the body

can't make Omega-3s; the best source is oily fish. But the problem,

as most parents know, is that children don't like it, so Omega-3

supplements are becoming a popular option.

Traditional cod liver oil is not particularly rich in EPA and DHA;

it also contains the fat-soluble vitamins A and D, that can be toxic

in excess, so high doses are not advisable in the long-term. "

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/articles/health/dietfitness.html?in_articl\

\

e_id=389362 & in_page_id=1798 & in_a_source=

=====

September 6, 2006

FYI - Vit E is also used as a natural preservative in lots of

foods. Read some labels and look for the word tocopherol, that's

vitamin E

>

> > Hi, I have a question about the vit E? I was looking at a bottle

of

> > Vit E that I have at home, it stated that children under 16 yrs

should

> > not take them. Is there something different about the Vit E 400

IU

> > Apha and 100 IU Gamma? I did not notice my bottle having the 100

IU

> > Gamma and the Apha.

> >

> > Thank you,

> >

> > Kathy,

> > Laurel, MD

> > mother to Kayla eight years old, non-verbal

> >

> > [ ] Re: Acting Out since starting E

> >

> > Wendi,

> >

> > My 2 yr old had what seemed like 100 time outs yesterday. I

can't

> > blame it on the supplements b/c I just started the E tonight

and the

> > he's been on the fish oils for a while. So maybe he's just

acting

> > like a 2 yr old? Could yours just be acting like a 3 yr old?? Or

> > do you really feel it's the supplements? I sure hope not. I hate

> > to think what I might be in for if mine gets any more stubborn!

>

September 8, 2006

Hi ,

Thanks for your response. I think you're right that doesn't have

Trimethylaminuria, as she eats other fish and I don't notice the smell.

I just got a little concerned when I read the email about this disease.

I brought to a neuro-psychologist last year, who said she was too

young to test for ADHD (4.1 at that time), but that he didn't see many

signs. He said she had very organized play, which kids with ADHD

normally don't exhibit at that age. In addition, she has very extensive

imaginary play. But I have noticed that as her speech has gotten better,

some of her other symptoms have worsened. She actually talks too much.

She often doesn't take a breath to let other people talk. (This is with

family, she is still cautious about speaking with other people, who she

doesn't think will understand her.) And she fidgets a lot too. Maybe

these are just part of the sensory integration, as her OT says she has

mild to moderate sensory issues. Would a neuro MD be able to diagnose

her with ADHD at her age (4.10)? Maybe it's time that we went to see

one.

If anyone knows of a good neuron MD in the Chicago area, please let me

know.

Thanks,

Becky McFarland

September 8, 2006