Re: Re: About my son ABA program

[Guest guest]

At 07:03 AM 2/4/2006, you wrote:

>Perhaps if we get this information out there, and call is " How ABA

>can be used effectively with an apraxic child " or something like

>that with parent and professional opinions - we can prevent the

>trauma stories we read about from traditional ABA used on an apraxic

>child.

This would be fabulous! I think that those of us with bad ABA experiences

would be thrilled to work with a therpists like Igor's! She really seems

to understand the child and apraxia. My son's therapists never did. It

was much too strict and approximations were not accepted. I'm sure

everyone understands the mentality of " he's said it once so he CAN say

it. " In my son's case that was one of the reasons the team labelled him

autistic. He " lost " words around the age of 18 mo to 2.5 yrs. Must be

autism, right?

It would be wonderful if apraxia support and awareness was out there as

much as autism awareness. It also seems that in some ways it would be

easier. When I went to autism support groups I felt like my son didn't

have anything in common with the other kids. I was always told that is

because ASD is such a wide spectrum. Well with apraxia my son is so

similar to so many of the kids here. It seems like apraxia is less of a

mystery and many of the " rules " for working with our kids would better

carry across the board to anyone with apraxia. I'm out there trying to

educate at least the ones my son comes into contact with. Hopefully that

will help the next kid. Apraxia is pretty uncommon where I live now so

maybe that is why our experience has been worse.

Miche

[Guest guest]

Hi ,

do you know what traditional ABA is? what is your definition of the therapy?

just curious

chris

kiddietalk <kiddietalk@...> wrote:

Some very good points to remember . But on one point a bit

premature to assume that new parents will be able to now add ABA to

the mix of therapies with such a lack of awareness and still a

majority of trauma stories shared here.

To clarify: I am not addressing those of you who have children with

autism where ABA is great, or autism and apraxia where modified

ABA 'can' be great, right now I'm speaking to those who have

children that are speech impaired/apraxic/even 'just' late talkers -

who can't yet speak, desperately want to -and need to be taught not

encouraged to talk. How is ABA appropriate for them? Is it ever?

Giseli has started to address this and perhaps others can share more.

I'm also not talking about those children with behavioural issues

(hitting and extreme negative behaviours. Yes -ABA to address the behaviour)...

(but that isn't the same thing as ABA to teach a child how to talk)

As I just posted earlier - by Giseli sharing her one example of

modified ABA (and from what she wrote it is clearly a modified

program of ABA and not traditional) it shows that in that context it

would be not only appropriate -but a program that would probably

work for just about all speech impaired/apraxic children. If we

hear from a few others on how it works with their speech

impaired/apraxic child (without autism) then we can put it all

together as a page of " what to look for "

For now -we'll use just Giseli's examples on that page -and when her

ABA therapist has the time after her wedding, and her Prompt

therapist has the time -perhaps they can write something up as well

that can be added. Hopefully it can be another resource that

parents can share with the professionals that work with their

child.

just posted her experience and so did Caroline and forgive

me if I can't recall everyone else on the not so nice news of ABA

and apraxia. The typical ABA therapist experience posted about here

over the years shows this is one therapy that probaly is not going

to be awesome, good, or even appropriate, and in some cases

detrimental for an apraxic child. In most cases it's not as severe

as detrimental -but trauma has been reported.

We can use Tina's example when ABA is used to address negative behaviour.

For now it is not safe at all to assume Giseli's experience is at

all a typical example for ABA therapy on a child with apraxia.

(and from what she wrote a child with no unusual behaviour issues)

New parents don't always know what is right or not right. Educated

or not I know parents in the situation where the ABA therapist was

insisting the child " needed to cry for a breakthrough " and even

though the parent in their gut knew something wasn't right -they

were torn as to " is this right? " The one parent I know posted about

this here is Kim if you check the archives. She is a criminal

investigave attorney who lives near me and while this was going on

as strong as she may be for her career -she was upset to tears about

what to do or not do. (she stopped ABA and her son is in apraxia

therapy taking EFAs and no longer fitting classic signs of apraxia

either -doing great)

We as a group agree that what Giseli states is appropriate and that

if that was the typical example of all those who practice modified

ABA then of course modified ABA would always be appropriate. Until

there is more awareness about what to do and not to do -still

proceed with caution if you have a child who is just apraxic/speech

impaired. Read over Giseli's message to see what to look for. If

in your gut something doesn't seem right - listen to it.

Mom and Dad typically do know best.

=========

[Guest guest]

Mics school is all autism but as of September this year all types of children

can be enrolled, not just autism. I know ABA can help all children with

difficulties.The director/owner of Mics school has worked so hard to get the

state to approve any child who can benefit from ABA. Laurie

[Guest guest]

hi lisa,

I'll reply to this one then the most recent.

ABA in new york is paid for by the district. My first client paid out of

pocket for me but that was 10 years ago. Now its protocol that autistic/Pdd

children get ABA.

I feel non-autistic/PDD children, children like my son who have cognitive

issues, severe speech/language issues and are impulsive would benefit from ABA

as well. yes my son has behavior when it comes to learning because he may have

language processing issues also very common with Apraxia. He just doesn't get it

sometimes and he really wants to, and he get behavioral because that is his

tactic to get out of the work, either he fights or shuts down. Once again

is not PDD. but nor is he considered the " typical " apraxic child either.

I will admit that with a compliant typical apraxic child, would I go right to

ABA?.... No but.... because of the structure of taking data and having specific

goals and specific prompts that ALL have to follow, not just the SLP, its a good

way to get everyone on the same page. and its a good way to go if other

therapies are failing because there is accountability. meaning when certain

programs are not going well everyone will brainstorm and find out why and what

they can do to help the child progress.

is now getting 4 hours of ABA with a great teacher. he is doing very

well with her. he now knows that we are not correcting his speech we are

correcting the wrong answer. he says " ed " (red) for " boo " (blue). she does not

correct his speech and makes him say until he says it right. he had more

comprehension of what people are trying to get out of him now. At school they

do not use ABA approach to teach, but with behavior they do. we will be putting

in speech programs for him now to help him to add the first letter of words

because he leaves them out and for some indiv sounds that really disordered.

(he will say a completely different sound for another sound)

The program will consist of 10 trials and if he is not wanting to do 10 we go

down to 5. the program will concentrate on words that he does not put the first

sound on like " down " we will say d then own and we would praise if he said it

right or do errorless meaning we will say no negative words for when he does not

say it right. we also do oral motor exercises with them too. he does not have

oral motor issues, (his SLP feels he is not apraxic because he can do oral motor

things ummm NOT...LOL

I think i answered the other email too

sorry so long but I hope I answered your questions

For the page... I can write up some detailed programs for parents to look

up,maybe people can write up some speech/language goals that their typical

apraxic children need that other therapies are not doing so well with. What do

ya think?

chris

kiddietalk <kiddietalk@...> wrote:

no I don't know much about ABA first hand -so can only go by

what others tell me. I've never had Tanner in ABA and it's never

been considered an appropriate therapy for those that don't have

autism or behavioral problems -so I only know what I've been told by

those who have had their child in the program, or from what I've

read here. And from what I've heard from my Aunt which was ABA from

decades ago when it first developed and used on autistic children -

or children with " atypical behavior " My aunt was not in favor of the

program from what she witnessed in some of the children she worked

with then, and said in the follow up they were able to function but

not socially. Back then there were more punishments used with ABA

then rewards -that's when she was in Boston. Most of the punishments

were deprivation -but there were some experiments using pain.

Sometimes the children were hurt.

I know ABA has come a long way -but as long as a way it has come -

apraxia is still in the dark. The way it is now with the lack of

awareness about what apraxia is, a motor planning disorder, that's

why I say " proceed with caution " Apparently you and other

knowledgeable ABA therapists are not going to be detrimental and can

be positive. But ABA therapy outside of everything else is

expensive and timely. Is ABA more beneficial then other therapies

we know as a group to be helpful?

I know parents from the original Children's Apraxia Network group

who had to mortgage their home to pay for ABA therapy! (their child

who originally they thought was just apraxic actually was diagnosed

by Dr. Agin as having both apraxia and autism) That's because their

son went into like a full time job program of ABA -but even 's

doctor recommended 5 hours a week of ABA therapy which isn't going

to be cheap either and is far more out of pocket costs then 2 half

hour sessions a week out of pocket of speech therapy and 1 half hour

session out of pocket of occupational therapy and even throw in an

hour of cranial sacral and you still are no where near the costs

and time of ABA. Instead of everyone jumping on me for

saying " proceed with caution " why can't others outside of Giseli

post about their positive experiences of getting ABA therapy for

their pure apraxic child? Keep in mind we have tons of members that

lurk, many who can be new parents. I'm not worried about being

politically correct and not hurting anyone's feelings here -I'm

looking to raise awareness about what is best for the children- each

type of child. From what we have read here ABA is at best not

appropriate in most cases and at worst it can be detrimental.

(without mentioning costly and timely)

Again let's make a page together as a group as to how ABA can be

practical for those who don't have autism or behavioral issues and

I'm all for that.

Here's a definition of ABA from s Hopkins

Applied Behavior Analysis

Applied Behavior Analysis (ABA) is probably the most widely used

treatment technique for children with autism. ABA derives from the

work of psychologist B. F. Skinner and behavioral therapy. It

presumes that autism is a neurological disorder producing behavioral

deficits and excesses that can be modified by intense one-to-one

behavioral training. ABA was adapted to autism in the 1960s by Ivar

Lovaas, a Norwegian-born psychologist at the University of

California at Los Angeles (UCLA), who has become almost a cult

figure among the parents of some children with autism. His students

have spread out around the world, modifying his procedures somewhat.

One type of ABA is called Discrete Trial Teaching (DTT).

In DTT, tasks are broken into discrete small steps that are repeated

with positive reinforcement until they are learned. There are three

main components to DTT. First, children are given a specific

instruction to perform a task. Second, the child responds or fails

to respond. Third, the therapist provides a reinforcer, feedback

about the response or a prompt to help the child respond. Discrete

trials are usually provided in sets of 10 opportunities to respond.

One task may be sorting, using objects such as Popsicle sticks and

plastic spoons. The child may be shown two boxes, one with a

Popsicle stick in it, the other with a spoon. The child is then told

to sort a pile of sticks and spoons into the appropriate boxes. If

the child does it wrong, the therapist firmly says " no. " That might

be repeated again (a " no-no prompt " ). If the child still gets it

wrong, the therapist may back up and try again with prompts or cues

to help the child perform accurately. When the child gets it right,

he or she gets positive reinforcement. The traditional application

of DTT involves rigid and repetitive lessons, Landa says. There are

more flexible child-focused ways to apply this therapeutic strategy.

ABA also can be used to modify problem behavior such as aggression,

throwing things or refusing to switch from one activity to another.

Parents of children in ABA training are advised to provide a

structured, routine environment at home.

Research by Lovaas' supporters claims that 30 percent to 50 percent

of children with autism can function normally in a regular school

without special support after ABA therapy That research has been

challenged by critics who think the success rate is not that high.

However, even ABA's critics agree that many children are helped

significantly by intensive intervention.

Those helped the most appear to be very young children getting at

least 30 hours a week of individualized training. Parents of older

children or those getting fewer than 30 hours of training also

report some improvement.

ABA therapy also can be very expensive, at more than $1,000 a month.

The training can last two years or more.

For more information, parents can go to the publications of the

National Academies Press.

http://www.hopkinshospital.org/health_info/Neurological%

20Diseases/Reading/autism_education.html

=========