responsibility for issued equipment

[Guest guest]

Theoretically yes. But there are lots of exceptions.

First, take a look and the written policies and procedures. If that's not

covered, it's questionable whether or not making the employee for the radio

would stick.

Second, was negligent conduct involved? It seems unfair to charge an

employee for an accident. However, if the employee has a history of ruining

equipment, it might be grounds for disciplinary action.

This is really a human relations problem, not so much as a legal problem.

If there's a union involved, the union contract may dictate what happens.

Further, without a clear policy, of which the employee is aware, it would be

possibly seen as an arbitrary and unfair policy to charge the employee.

The time to be figuring this out is not after an incident. There should be

a clear policy, cleared with legal, and it should be applied without

discrimination.

In my judgment, there are better ways to handle the matter than charging the

employee for the equipment.

What if a fire engine is involved? Let's say one of the drivers loses control

and totals the thing. Would any fire department attempt to charge the

firefighter $425,000 for the engine? I don't think so. So what's the

difference

in that and a $500 radio except in amount?

Gene Gandy, JD, LP

>

> If equipment that is issued to you is broken, can the employer legally

> make you pay for the equipment.

>

> Say for instance you work for a city department and are issued a

> radio. This radio falls from your personal vehicle on the way home and

> is run over. Can the city make you pay for the radio?

>

> Garrett

>

>

>

**************************************

See what's new at http://www.aol.com

[Guest guest]

Ah yes, Steve, you've hit the nail on the head.

It all depends on the facts of the situation, as Sgt. Friday well knew.

[For those of you pups who don't know who Sgt. Friday was, you probably don't

know who Dixie McCall or Dr. Joe Early was either. Consult Google. Friday's

famous line was " just the facts, ma'am " ]

Remember the definition of negligence? Doing something that a reasonable

and prudent person wouldn't do. That's the short definition.

So if you drop the radio, just like some of us now and then drop our keys, or

knock over a glass of water, that's not negligence. But if you leave it on

the back bumper of your truck and it falls off and lebenty-eight motorists

drive over it, that MAY be, depending on the eye of the beholder.

Remember: " You can often observe a lot just by looking. "

GG

>

> Negligence is very subjective. If you drop something, is that

> negligence? It seems to be a fine line. If you willfully destroy

> something, different story. Can an employer legally withhold wages to

> compensate for a loss?

>

> Re: responsibility for issued equipment

>

>

>

> In the case of negligence, they probably can.

>

> ReD <emsfire@...

> <mailto:emsfire%mailto:emsfirmai> > wrote: If equipment that is issued

> to you is broken, can the employer legally

> make you pay for the equipment.

>

> Say for instance you work for a city department and are issued a

> radio. This radio falls from your personal vehicle on the way

> home and

> is run over. Can the city make you pay for the radio?

>

> Garrett

>

> " A prudent man foresees the difficulties ahead and prepares for

> them; the simpleton goes blindly on and suffers the consequences.

> Proverbs 22:3

>

> ------------ ------- ------- -

> Need a vacation? Get great deals to amazing places on Yahoo!

> Travel.

>

>

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 10/16/2007 9:14:03 P.M. Central Daylight Time,

baystarems@... writes:

UPS drivers are made to pay for any damages to both the company vehicle or

the other vehicle, if proven at fault. If they want to keep their jobs.

Yea but I bet you dollars to doughnuts they make a HELL of a LOT MORE then

anyone in EMS in Texas (with some exceptions maybe).

Louis N. Molino, Sr., CET

FF/NREMT-B/FSI/EMSI

Owner and President of LNM Emergency Services Consulting Services (LNMECS)

Freelance Consultant/Trainer/Author/Journalist/Fire Protection Consultant

LNMolino@...

(Cell Phone)

(IFW/TFW/FSS Office)

(IFW/TFW/FSS Fax)

The comments contained in this E-mail are the opinions of the author and the

author alone. I in no way ever intend to speak for any person or

organization that I am in any way whatsoever involved or associated with unless

I

specifically state that I am doing so. Further this E-mail is intended only for

its

stated recipient and may contain private and or confidential materials

retransmission is strictly prohibited unless placed in the public domain by the

original author.

************************************** See what's new at http://www.aol.com

[Guest guest]

If equipment that is issued to you is broken, can the employer legally

make you pay for the equipment.

Say for instance you work for a city department and are issued a

radio. This radio falls from your personal vehicle on the way home and

is run over. Can the city make you pay for the radio?

Garrett

[Guest guest]

I know if we had a loss due to carelessness or negligence it would be an

issue.

Tom Clutts

7111 Five Forks

Spring TX 77379

tclutts@...

www.ccems.com

tel:

fax:

cell:

This message (and any associated files) contains confidential information or

HIPAA protected information and is intended only for texasems-l .

If you are not texasems-l you should not disseminate, distribute

or copy this e-mail. Please notify tclutts@... immediately by e-mail if

you have received this e-mail by mistake and delete this e-mail from your

system. E-mail transmission cannot be guaranteed to be secure or error-free as

information could be intercepted, corrupted, lost, destroyed, arrive late or

incomplete, or contain viruses. Tom Clutts therefore does not accept liability

for any errors or omissions in the contents of this message, which arise as a

result of e-mail transmission. If verification is required please request a

hard-copy version. Any views or opinions presented are solely those of the

author and do not necessarily represent those of the company.

--------------------------------------------------------

________________________________

From: texasems-l [mailto:texasems-l ] On

Behalf Of ReD

Sent: Tuesday, October 16, 2007 5:36 PM

To: texasems-l

Subject: responsibility for issued equipment

If equipment that is issued to you is broken, can the employer legally

make you pay for the equipment.

Say for instance you work for a city department and are issued a

radio. This radio falls from your personal vehicle on the way home and

is run over. Can the city make you pay for the radio?

Garrett

[Guest guest]

In the case of negligence, they probably can.

ReD wrote: If equipment that is issued

to you is broken, can the employer legally

make you pay for the equipment.

Say for instance you work for a city department and are issued a

radio. This radio falls from your personal vehicle on the way home and

is run over. Can the city make you pay for the radio?

Garrett

" A prudent man foresees the difficulties ahead and prepares for them; the

simpleton goes blindly on and suffers the consequences. " Proverbs 22:3

---------------------------------

Need a vacation? Get great deals to amazing places on Yahoo! Travel.

[Guest guest]

Negligence is very subjective. If you drop something, is that

negligence? It seems to be a fine line. If you willfully destroy

something, different story. Can an employer legally withhold wages to

compensate for a loss?

Re: responsibility for issued equipment

In the case of negligence, they probably can.

ReD <emsfire@...

<mailto:emsfire%40redsanders.com> > wrote: If equipment that is issued

to you is broken, can the employer legally

make you pay for the equipment.

Say for instance you work for a city department and are issued a

radio. This radio falls from your personal vehicle on the way

home and

is run over. Can the city make you pay for the radio?

Garrett

" A prudent man foresees the difficulties ahead and prepares for

them; the simpleton goes blindly on and suffers the consequences. "

Proverbs 22:3

---------------------------------

Need a vacation? Get great deals to amazing places on Yahoo!

Travel.

[Guest guest]

My answer on that is no...now, if the policy is in place that employees are

responsible for returning all issued equipment, with the exception of uniforms,

in sound working conditions upon departing the company or at any time the

company requests it and that the individual employee is responsible if this is

not possible for any reason, then the employee, in my opinion, can be required

to replace whatever it is they break, destroy or lose.?

You cannot take money out of their paycheck without the employees approval, but

you could require a payment back and take disciplinary action if not done

including termination...

BUT, I agree with Gene...this is a human relations and PR problem.? My

philosophy...if you don't want it broken, damaged or destroyed...don't give it

to paramedics...

This is a leadership philosophy issue...I personally believe that you hire

quality people, pay them appropriately, train them to be unbelievable...and when

things get broken by these good people, pat them on the back, tell them it is

okay...and replace whatever was broken...if it was done on purpose well we got a

bigger problem, but if you hire and retain quality people, it is probably

something that you need to work through.? If the employee continues down that

track, then you have to probably separate them from the organization.?

I?believe it speaks volumes about an organization and its leadership if they

require their employees to pay for stuff they break...either 1.) they do not

have quality employees and the ones they could attract are destructive and

abusive (which makes me wonder how they care for their patients) or 2.) the

organization is a little too concerned about the equipment and the bottom line

dollars?and needs to focus more on their people or else they are walking down a

short pier towards becoming organization #1 above...

Dudley

Re: responsibility for issued equipment

In the case of negligence, they probably can.

ReD <emsfire@...

<mailto:emsfire%40redsanders.com> > wrote: If equipment that is issued

to you is broken, can the employer legally

make you pay for the equipment.

Say for instance you work for a city department and are issued a

radio. This radio falls from your personal vehicle on the way

home and

is run over. Can the city make you pay for the radio?

Garrett

" A prudent man foresees the difficulties ahead and prepares for

them; the simpleton goes blindly on and suffers the consequences. "

Proverbs 22:3

---------------------------------

Need a vacation? Get great deals to amazing places on Yahoo!

Travel.

[Guest guest]

That's exactly my point (and just my own.) Accidents happen and most people

don't mean for things to happen, but they do. It seems to me a matter of intent.

If they didn't intend for something to happen, forget it. If it happens often or

its expensive, retrain them. If they intend to it, charge them.

This e-mail is confidential and intended solely for the use of the individual

(s) to whom it is addressed. Any views or opinions presented are solely those of

the author and do not necessarily represent those of The City of Azle or its

policies. If you have received this e-mail message in error, please phone Steve

Lemming (817)444-7108. Please also destroy and delete the message from your

computer.

For more information on The City of Azle, visit our web site at:

http://www.cityofazle.org <http://www.cityofazle.org/>

Re: responsibility for issued equipment

In the case of negligence, they probably can.

ReD <emsfire@... <mailto:emsfire%40redsanders.com>

<mailto:emsfire%40redsanders.com> > wrote: If equipment that is issued

to you is broken, can the employer legally

make you pay for the equipment.

Say for instance you work for a city department and are issued a

radio. This radio falls from your personal vehicle on the way

home and

is run over. Can the city make you pay for the radio?

Garrett

" A prudent man foresees the difficulties ahead and prepares for

them; the simpleton goes blindly on and suffers the consequences. "

Proverbs 22:3

---------------------------------

Need a vacation? Get great deals to amazing places on Yahoo!

Travel.

[Guest guest]

Let me tell a story.

While employed with the City of Baytown, I was issued a portable radio. One

night, someone broke into my car and stole a few of my items, including the

radio. (I know it was stupid for me to leave it out in the vehicle anyway).

Moving one, when I was assigned the port radio I had to sign a document

which made me liable for replacement cost and repairs due to my negligence,

etc.

Well my boss at the time, Jack Pitcock, told me I had to pay for the radio.

I should have brought the radio into the house, it was my fault. I was wrong

and I messed up.

I didn’t get mad, but telling my wife we were about to pay for a 3K port

radio was tough. She was pissed and I got my butt chewed out.

I filed the claim on my insurance the next day. You should have heard the

lady on the phone, with the insurance company, when I told her about the

contents in my car and the value of that radio. She started to laugh. I

didn’t think it was funny.

Well, you know what? Three days later, someone turned In my radio to the

police department and I got my radio back. Perfect condition, too! I was

lucky. Any you know what? I returned that insurance check back to the

insurance company and they gave me a big discount on my auto insurance the

following year. I thank GOD for that one. We were blessed.

Anyway, my point is. It happened to me and I was made to pay for the radio.

I have since been educated on the matter and an employer can make you pay

for anything, especially if you agree to it in writing. And, if there is no

agreement in place, if negligence is found on part of the party who was at

fault, a court will make you pay to.

UPS drivers are made to pay for any damages to both the company vehicle or

the other vehicle, if proven at fault. If they want to keep their jobs.

_____

From: texasems-l [mailto:texasems-l ] On

Behalf Of THEDUDMAN@...

Sent: Tuesday, October 16, 2007 8:13 PM

To: texasems-l

Subject: Re: responsibility for issued equipment

My answer on that is no...now, if the policy is in place that employees are

responsible for returning all issued equipment, with the exception of

uniforms, in sound working conditions upon departing the company or at any

time the company requests it and that the individual employee is responsible

if this is not possible for any reason, then the employee, in my opinion,

can be required to replace whatever it is they break, destroy or lose.?

You cannot take money out of their paycheck without the employees approval,

but you could require a payment back and take disciplinary action if not

done including termination...

BUT, I agree with Gene...this is a human relations and PR problem.? My

philosophy...if you don't want it broken, damaged or destroyed...don't give

it to paramedics...

This is a leadership philosophy issue...I personally believe that you hire

quality people, pay them appropriately, train them to be unbelievable...and

when things get broken by these good people, pat them on the back, tell them

it is okay...and replace whatever was broken...if it was done on purpose

well we got a bigger problem, but if you hire and retain quality people, it

is probably something that you need to work through.? If the employee

continues down that track, then you have to probably separate them from the

organization.?

I?believe it speaks volumes about an organization and its leadership if they

require their employees to pay for stuff they break...either 1.) they do not

have quality employees and the ones they could attract are destructive and

abusive (which makes me wonder how they care for their patients) or 2.) the

organization is a little too concerned about the equipment and the bottom

line dollars?and needs to focus more on their people or else they are

walking down a short pier towards becoming organization #1 above...

Dudley

Re: responsibility for issued equipment

In the case of negligence, they probably can.

ReD <emsfire (AT) redsanders (DOT) <mailto:emsfire%40redsanders.com> com

<mailto:emsfire%40redsanders.com> > wrote: If equipment that is issued

to you is broken, can the employer legally

make you pay for the equipment.

Say for instance you work for a city department and are issued a

radio. This radio falls from your personal vehicle on the way

home and

is run over. Can the city make you pay for the radio?

Garrett

" A prudent man foresees the difficulties ahead and prepares for

them; the simpleton goes blindly on and suffers the consequences. "

Proverbs 22:3

---------------------------------

Need a vacation? Get great deals to amazing places on Yahoo!

Travel.

[Guest guest]

This has nothing to do with a money issue or who makes more.

It is a responability issue. If a crew goes into Mcs and

leaves a radio when thy have been assigned a radio and a belt clip

to carry that radio ( which they chose not to use) then hell yea

they should be responsible and have to pay for it. Working a MVA, or

high angle rescue and a radio falls and gets broken I think is a

different story that is the cost of doing business. The owner of a

Company has to buy a new one, correct?

>

>

>

> In a message dated 10/16/2007 9:14:03 P.M. Central Daylight Time,

> baystarems@... writes:

>

> UPS drivers are made to pay for any damages to both the company

vehicle or

> the other vehicle, if proven at fault. If they want to keep their

jobs.

>

>

> Yea but I bet you dollars to doughnuts they make a HELL of a LOT

MORE then

> anyone in EMS in Texas (with some exceptions maybe).

>

> Louis N. Molino, Sr., CET

> FF/NREMT-B/FSI/EMSI

> Owner and President of LNM Emergency Services Consulting Services

(LNMECS)

> Freelance Consultant/Trainer/Author/Journalist/Fire Protection

Consultant

>

> LNMolino@...

>

> (Cell Phone)

> (IFW/TFW/FSS Office)

> (IFW/TFW/FSS Fax)

>

> The comments contained in this E-mail are the opinions of the

author and the

> author alone. I in no way ever intend to speak for any person or

> organization that I am in any way whatsoever involved or

associated with unless I

> specifically state that I am doing so. Further this E-mail is

intended only for its

> stated recipient and may contain private and or confidential

materials

> retransmission is strictly prohibited unless placed in the public

domain by the

> original author.

>

>

>

> ************************************** See what's new at

http://www.aol.com

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 10/17/2007 10:27:05 P.M. Central Daylight Time,

THEDUDMAN@... writes:

Apples and Oranges....

True but more to the fact that its really had for a UPS driver to kill a

package it's easy for an EMS person to kill a person. Driving excepted.

Louis N. Molino, Sr., CET

FF/NREMT-B/FSI/EMSI

Owner and President of LNM Emergency Services Consulting Services (LNMECS)

Freelance Consultant/Trainer/Author/Journalist/Fire Protection Consultant

LNMolino@...

(Cell Phone)

(IFW/TFW/FSS Office)

(IFW/TFW/FSS Fax)

The comments contained in this E-mail are the opinions of the author and the

author alone. I in no way ever intend to speak for any person or

organization that I am in any way whatsoever involved or associated with unless

I

specifically state that I am doing so. Further this E-mail is intended only for

its

stated recipient and may contain private and or confidential materials

retransmission is strictly prohibited unless placed in the public domain by the

original author.

************************************** See what's new at http://www.aol.com