A year later

[Guest guest]

I looked and i haven't posted to this site in about a year. Too much

going on and too tired; at least that is my excuse and I am sticking

to it.

I had a friend ask about a Thyroid Group yesterday and I gave her this

group address. Her email address is lacorona@... in case she

contacts you. Wonderful, wise woman and online friend.

To the problem at hand...a year ago, lab test before generic Armour

Thyroid (doc thinks generic is ok) on levothyroxine;

TSH (.35-5.5) 0.371

T4 (4.5-12) 7.5

T3 uptake (24-39) 32

Free Thyroxine Index(1.2-4.9) 2.4

Extremely tired all the time.

March 7, 2007 on 90 mg. generic

TSH (.35-5.5) 8.557

T4 (5.0-12.5) 2.7 L

Free T3 (2.3-4.2) 2.2 L

Better but still tired

As of last Monday, May 7, on 120 mg. Armour generic:

TSH (.35-5.5) 1.940

Free T4 (0.89-1.80) 0.63 L

Free T3 (2.3-4.2) 2.9

So she told me to quit the Armour and start taking Cytomel 25 mgs.

More energy.

Now that I look at it, it looks like we were getting there. I don't

understand what changed and I am totally confused. Any suggestions?

I am supposed to see her again in 3 weeks. What will just taking the

Cytomel do to me in the mean time?

Saliva Cortisol levels a year ago; (don't know where they are now but

I am taking DHEA.)

7-9 am (.27-2.06) .26 awake for 3 hrs due to insomnia

11-1 pm (.03-.77) .58

3-5 pm (.03-.56) .09

10-12 am (.03-.50) .09

DHEA 7-9 am (14 - 277) 103

Lab says this shows adrenal fatigue, so I wonder if I should take

adrenal gland med, too.

BTW, my ferretin is 6 (10-291). I have never had such a difficult

time being " normal " in my life; so she has me taking Chromagen FA,

too. I feel like a pill disposal!

Thanks,

Peggy

[Guest guest]

Hi Peggy,

IMHO your last numbers look like you could use an increase of Armour

not removal of it. My understanding of Cytomel is that it is a

straight t3 which means that you would have to keep a strict regime

on taking your meds. Your TSH of 1.940 is high when taking meds for

it and should be at 1 or lower. The t4 should be in the top range

and is really low so you need more t4 not less. Your t3 is also low

and needs to be in the mid to high of the range. You were on 120mgs

of Armour so why is she not giving you an increase? Are you having

some conversion trouble at anytime? But if as it seems from the labs

you do not have an adequate amount of t4 to convert then your t3 will

also be low. This is what I see with it anyway and I am sure that

others will put in their insights too. Good to see you back again

and we will keep our eye open for your friend.

Dawn

ThyroCanuck

>

> I looked and i haven't posted to this site in about a year. Too

much

> going on and too tired; at least that is my excuse and I am sticking

> to it.

>

> I had a friend ask about a Thyroid Group yesterday and I gave her

this

> group address. Her email address is lacorona@... in case she

> contacts you. Wonderful, wise woman and online friend.

>

> To the problem at hand...a year ago, lab test before generic Armour

> Thyroid (doc thinks generic is ok) on levothyroxine;

> TSH (.35-5.5) 0.371

> T4 (4.5-12) 7.5

> T3 uptake (24-39) 32

> Free Thyroxine Index(1.2-4.9) 2.4

> Extremely tired all the time.

>

> March 7, 2007 on 90 mg. generic

> TSH (.35-5.5) 8.557

> T4 (5.0-12.5) 2.7 L

> Free T3 (2.3-4.2) 2.2 L

> Better but still tired

>

> As of last Monday, May 7, on 120 mg. Armour generic:

> TSH (.35-5.5) 1.940

> Free T4 (0.89-1.80) 0.63 L

> Free T3 (2.3-4.2) 2.9

>

> So she told me to quit the Armour and start taking Cytomel 25 mgs.

> More energy.

>

> Now that I look at it, it looks like we were getting there. I don't

> understand what changed and I am totally confused. Any

suggestions?

> I am supposed to see her again in 3 weeks. What will just taking

the

> Cytomel do to me in the mean time?

>

>

> Saliva Cortisol levels a year ago; (don't know where they are now

but

> I am taking DHEA.)

>

> 7-9 am (.27-2.06) .26 awake for 3 hrs due to insomnia

> 11-1 pm (.03-.77) .58

> 3-5 pm (.03-.56) .09

> 10-12 am (.03-.50) .09

> DHEA 7-9 am (14 - 277) 103

> Lab says this shows adrenal fatigue, so I wonder if I should take

> adrenal gland med, too.

>

> BTW, my ferretin is 6 (10-291). I have never had such a difficult

> time being " normal " in my life; so she has me taking Chromagen FA,

> too. I feel like a pill disposal!

>

> Thanks,

> Peggy

>

[Guest guest]

Dawn,

That is exatly what I thought so I called her office while writing the

first time and asked her nurse to see if I understood her correctly;

drop the armour and take only cytomel. She called back and said I had

understood correctly.

Peggy

>

> Hi Peggy,

> IMHO your last numbers look like you could use an increase of Armour

> not removal of it. My understanding of Cytomel is that it is a

> straight t3 which means that you would have to keep a strict regime

> on taking your meds. Your TSH of 1.940 is high when taking meds for

> it and should be at 1 or lower. The t4 should be in the top range

> and is really low so you need more t4 not less. Your t3 is also low

> and needs to be in the mid to high of the range. You were on 120mgs

> of Armour so why is she not giving you an increase? Are you having

> some conversion trouble at anytime? But if as it seems from the labs

> you do not have an adequate amount of t4 to convert then your t3 will

> also be low. This is what I see with it anyway and I am sure that

> others will put in their insights too. Good to see you back again

> and we will keep our eye open for your friend.

> Dawn

> ThyroCanuck

[Guest guest]

Hi Peggy... yep.. got your post here and direct... just slow in getting

back with all the excitement....

05/06 03/070/7 05/07/07

Levo 90 mg Nat 120 Nat

TSH (.35-5.5) 0.371 8.557 1.940

Total T4 (4.5-12) 7.5

Total T4 (5.0-12.5) 2.7 L

Free T4 (1.2-4.9) 2.4

Free T4 (0.89-1.80) 0.63 L

Free T3 (2.3-4.2) 2.2 L 2.9

Okay.. all your numbers on one screen.. I hope it comes across

straight....

***Look at TSH.

On Levo, was decent, but you didn't give a dose.

Changed to generic natural, 90 mg. TSH shot up, shows dose too small.

Increased natural to 120 mg. TSH has dropped... but still too high

***Now look at the T4s.. they took total T4 and twice and Free T4 twice.

Between the labs while on Levo and the labs on Natural, Total T4 has

dropped significantly. Hard to qualify cuz its testing totals. And Levo

is a T4 only med so you may likely have been taking a lot more of it than

what was in the 90 mg dose of natural

We can see though that while on Levo your Free T4 was far too low for you

to feel well. With a level that low it's likely your Free T3 had to be

VERY low, but they didn't test it.

When they switched you to the 90 mg of Natural both your Total T4 and

your Free T3 were both below range... showing your dose too low.

When they increased you to the 120 mg Natural. We see the Free T4 below

range, and the Free T3 very low in it's range. Showing your dose is too

low.

So though your numbers, relative to each other are suggesting that your

body is converting at a good ratio they are also showing that the doses

of natural that you've been on are too low to give you adequate hormone.

Can you see it?

Now the doc is taking away the 120 mg Natural. That dose contains 148 mcg

of T4 and 18 mg of T3. She is replacing that with only 25 mcg of T3.

From your body's perspective it's gotten a kick up in available T3, you

are feeling better. Your body is still converting the T4 stored in your

tissues, With no more coming in to replace it. As that stored T4 is

converted and used up, your available converted T3 will drop. Making

total available T3 less than what you had on the 120 mg of Natural and

that is going to make you even MORE hypo that you have been...

I do NOT see the doc's logic.

From what I see in these numbers, levels, ratios... you were moving in

the right direction with the increase is the natural thyroid... you just

weren't on a high enough dose yet.

IMHO

I would have increased your dose to 2 1/4 grain... that would be 150 mg.

That should have your TSH creep down a bit and your Frees creep up a bit.

But I'd guess that you're still going to need more than that... a dose of

3 grain or more is not unheard of. My own sweet spot is about 4 1/2

grain, that would be 270 mg

So.. my humble opinion.. the doc made the wrong move. At three weeks to

go back for follow up labs, your results will show that your Free T3 will

have dropped and your Free T4 will be even lower.. .and your TSH is gonna

go up.

Make sure that you don't dose the morning before labs, you want the labs

to show your existing conversion, not that you just dosed.

arggghhh this is a doc that isn't so smart.

How's your level of guts?

Given these circumstances.. I'd stay on the 2 grain (120 mg) of natural

and add 1/4 tab of the 25 mcg T3 taken twice a day, for a total per day

of 12.5...

But that's me..

That would make you feel better... wouldn't trash the T4 stores you

already have... and you can go in and stomp your feet when you tell that

doc that the increase in T3 is the right direction.. lets kick up the

Natural so that you can be alive again.

IMHO, of course....

The adrenals... low all stages through the day? Yah.. I'd say your gland

are fatigues.. and yeah.. I'd say get on some adrenal replacement.. like

soon.

The Ferritin.. yeah.. you need to kick that up too... I'm not familiar

with Chromagen FA, is that an iron supplement? When did you start on that

and are you taking it the same time you take your thyroid?

Just to cover bases...

How are you taking your Natural Thyroid.. empty tummy and swallowing it

or tucked under your tongue (sublingually)?

Are you taking it all in one dose or divided doses?

How much time between the labs and your last dose?

Those are my thoughts so far.. took a bit of time to stare at it...

Topper ()

On Mon, 14 May 2007 17:38:24 -0000 " Peggy " hummer_378@...> writes:

> I looked and i haven't posted to this site in about a year. Too

> much

> going on and too tired; at least that is my excuse and I am

> sticking to it.

>

> I had a friend ask about a Thyroid Group yesterday and I gave her

> this

> group address. Her email address is lacorona@... in case she

> contacts you. Wonderful, wise woman and online friend.

>

> To the problem at hand...a year ago, lab test before generic Armour

> Thyroid (doc thinks generic is ok) on levothyroxine;

> TSH (.35-5.5) 0.371

> T4 (4.5-12) 7.5

> T3 uptake (24-39) 32

> Free Thyroxine Index(1.2-4.9) 2.4

> Extremely tired all the time.

>

> March 7, 2007 on 90 mg. generic

> TSH (.35-5.5) 8.557

> T4 (5.0-12.5) 2.7 L

> Free T3 (2.3-4.2) 2.2 L

> Better but still tired

>

> As of last Monday, May 7, on 120 mg. Armour generic:

> TSH (.35-5.5) 1.940

> Free T4 (0.89-1.80) 0.63 L

> Free T3 (2.3-4.2) 2.9

>

> So she told me to quit the Armour and start taking Cytomel 25 mgs.

> More energy.

>

> Now that I look at it, it looks like we were getting there. I don't

> understand what changed and I am totally confused. Any suggestions?

>

> I am supposed to see her again in 3 weeks. What will just taking

> the Cytomel do to me in the mean time?

>

> Saliva Cortisol levels a year ago; (don't know where they are now

> but I am taking DHEA.)

>

> 7-9 am (.27-2.06) .26 awake for 3 hrs due to insomnia

> 11-1 pm (.03-.77) .58

> 3-5 pm (.03-.56) .09

> 10-12 am (.03-.50) .09

> DHEA 7-9 am (14 - 277) 103

> Lab says this shows adrenal fatigue, so I wonder if I should take

> adrenal gland med, too.

>

> BTW, my ferretin is 6 (10-291). I have never had such a difficult

> time being " normal " in my life; so she has me taking Chromagen FA,

> too. I feel like a pill disposal!

>

> Thanks,

> Peggy

[Guest guest]

Sorry, I didn't mean to be a nuisance; but when I started reading about Cytomel, I panicked. I haven't taken the armour in a week already. I even installed yahoo IM since you said you would be online about the TV, but then I thought, "I can't give her all this in an instant message." I was on 125 Levo. In your opinion, is "generic" natural ok? Doc actually started me on less natural. We have only gotten to 90 mg. after a year.Further Text in message. So though your numbers,

relative to each other are suggesting that your body is converting at a good ratio they are also showing that the doses of natural that you've been on are too low to give you adequate hormone.Can you see it?****Yes, I see exactly what was happening.Now the doc is taking away the 120 mg Natural. That dose contains 148 mcg of T4 and 18 mg of T3. She is replacing that with only 25 mcg of T3.****I'm glad you know these numbers, I didn't have a clue.From your body's perspective it's gotten a kick up in available T3, you are feeling better. Your body is still converting the T4 stored in your tissues, With no more coming in to replace it. As that stored T4 is converted and used up, your available converted T3 will drop. Making total available T3 less than what you had on the 120 mg of Natural and that is going to make you even MORE hypo that

you have been...Great!I do NOT see the doc's logic. ****Me either but I was hoping that she knew more than I did. She was one of those top docs.From what I see in these numbers, levels, ratios... you were moving in the right direction with the increase is the natural thyroid... you just weren't on a high enough dose yet.IMHOI would have increased your dose to 2 1/4 grain... that would be 150 mg. TSH creep down a bit and your Frees creep up a bit.But I'd guess that you're still going to need more than that... a dose of 3 grain or more is not unheard of. My own sweet spot is about 4 1/2 grain, that would be 270 mgSo.. my humble opinion.. the doc made the wrong move. At three weeks to go back for follow up labs, your results will show that

your Free T3 will have dropped and your Free T4 will be even lower.. .and your TSH is gonnago up.Make sure that you don't dose the morning before labs, you want the labs to show your existing conversion, not that you just dosed.arggghhh this is a doc that isn't so smart.How's your level of guts? I'm ready.Given these circumstances.. I'd stay on the 2 grain (120 mg) of natural and add 1/4 tab of the 25 mcg T3 taken twice a day, for a total per day of 12.5...But that's me..****or should I go back to the natural. I have 2 grain and 1 1/2 grain. I'll have to check tomorrow and see if I have any 1 or 1/2 grain refills left. Is 1/2 grain too much to go up...I have done that before. I don't feel so good about letting her regulate it

now. I could go to my pcp who I have been seeing for 10 years and beg and plead for him to prescribe natural and see what he would do . Why is it so difficult to get natural? My ex-endocrinologist acted like I had lost my mind. Of course, he only wanted to give me 100 levo, too.I will have to go back and see this woman, I did a heavy metals urine test today.That would make you feel better... wouldn't trash the T4 stores you already have... and you can go in and stomp your feet when you tell that doc that the increase in T3 is the right direction.. lets kick up the Natural so that you can be alive again.The adrenals... low all stages through the day? Yah.. I'd say your gland are fatigues.. and yeah.. I'd say get on some adrenal replacement.. like soon.****Where do you get it...health food store or order it?The Ferritin.. yeah.. you need to kick that up too... I'm not familiar with Chromagen FA, is that an iron supplement? When did you start on that and are you taking it the same time you take your thyroid?Yes, Chromagen is iron, Vit C, B vit mixture. I started Friday. No, I take the thyroid when I first get up but don't take the iron until I eat. It makes me nauseated. I get up, take thyroid, have coffee, then eat about 45 minutes later. Unless it's one of those days that I wake up too early, take thyroid, go back to bed. Actually, I was doing that quite often before cytomel.Just to cover bases...How are you taking your Natural Thyroid.. empty tummy and swallowing it or tucked under your tongue (sublingually)?Empty stomach. I chew it

up but usually am not patient enough to let it dissolve subl. Wonder if the armour dissolves faster? This one takes forever. I take it in one dose. Have been taking dose in am, have labs in early pm. Never thought about leaving it off. Are you taking it all in one dose or divided doses?How much time between the labs and your last dose?Those are my thoughts so far.. took a bit of time to stare at it...Topper ()Thanks, so much!! Peggy in TN Peggy in TN

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