Extreme fatigue and tightness in chest

[Guest guest]

i started taking armour on saturday and only 1/4 grain. i've noticed that i am super, super tired in the morning and even throughout the day. and it's a weird tired, i feel like dead weight, especially my forearms.... you know that feeling that sort of feels weak and tickly when you try to make a fist and can't? that's how my arms feel.......really weak. and my chest feels a little tight, like it's hard to expand when i breathe. this happened when i tried levoxyl 2 yrs ago also and i couldn't take it and stopped after 9 days. why does this happen? does this mean that i need to take adrenal meds?thanks--palma

Ahhh...imagining that irresistible "new car" smell? Check out

new cars at Yahoo! Autos.

[Guest guest]

My first thought is adrenal..

Can we run through some of the basic schtuff?

You eat breakfast?

You eat at least 4 or 5 times a day?

You avoid goitrogens?

You take vitamins?

Is it worst in the morning and eases up during the day?

How about going to sleep at night... do you drop off easily and stay asleep through the night?

Has your sleep pattern changed (how you are falling asleep/staying asleep) since starting the Armour?

If the adrenals are over taxed, struggling to keep up with things in a body that is low on thyroid hormone, the adding of thyroid hormone is going to kick up the level of body processes.. that kicks up the work load on the adrenals... causing the fatigue and such, just as you describe. It's actually a normal/predictable thing...

How much it affects an individual depends on a gazzillion factors, some don't notice it at all... others are knocked to the ground (exaggeration there)...

A quarter grain is a physically small dose, it's gonna be pretty tough to split that.. what you can do is not take it everyday... taking it every other day or every third day.. that will reduce the effect on your body as your body adjusts to the additional thyroid hormone...

Do you know if you have any sensitivites to any tableting agents, the stuff that is used to make a pill a pill?

Topper ()

On Tue, 8 May 2007 10:02:41 -0700 (PDT) palma joshi writes:

i started taking armour on saturday and only 1/4 grain. i've noticed that i am super, super tired in the morning and even throughout the day. and it's a weird tired, i feel like dead weight, especially my forearms.... you know that feeling that sort of feels weak and tickly when you try to make a fist and can't? that's how my arms feel.......really weak. and my chest feels a little tight, like it's hard to expand when i breathe. this happened when i tried levoxyl 2 yrs ago also and i couldn't take it and stopped after 9 days. why does this happen? does this mean that i need to take adrenal meds?thanks--palma

[Guest guest]

,

Hi do you avoid all goitrogens all the time? And if so which ones.thanks, Bernetta

-- Re: Extreme fatigue and tightness in chest

My first thought is adrenal..

Can we run through some of the basic schtuff?

You eat breakfast?

You eat at least 4 or 5 times a day?

You avoid goitrogens?

You take vitamins?

Is it worst in the morning and eases up during the day?

How about going to sleep at night... do you drop off easily and stay asleep through the night?

Has your sleep pattern changed (how you are falling asleep/staying asleep) since starting the Armour?

If the adrenals are over taxed, struggling to keep up with things in a body that is low on thyroid hormone, the adding of thyroid hormone is going to kick up the level of body processes.. that kicks up the work load on the adrenals... causing the fatigue and such, just as you describe. It's actually a normal/predictable thing...

How much it affects an individual depends on a gazzillion factors, some don't notice it at all... others are knocked to the ground (exaggeration there)...

A quarter grain is a physically small dose, it's gonna be pretty tough to split that.. what you can do is not take it everyday... taking it every other day or every third day.. that will reduce the effect on your body as your body adjusts to the additional thyroid hormone...

Do you know if you have any sensitivites to any tableting agents, the stuff that is used to make a pill a pill?

Topper ()

On Tue, 8 May 2007 10:02:41 -0700 (PDT) palma joshi writes:

i started taking armour on saturday and only 1/4 grain. i've noticed that i am super, super tired in the morning and even throughout the day. and it's a weird tired, i feel like dead weight, especially my forearms.... you know that feeling that sort of feels weak and tickly when you try to make a fist and can't? that's how my arms feel.......really weak. and my chest feels a little tight, like it's hard to expand when i breathe. this happened when i tried levoxyl 2 yrs ago also and i couldn't take it and stopped after 9 days. why does this happen? does this mean that i need to take adrenal meds?thanks--palma

[Guest guest]

There are only two things that I still consume with soy in them... My salad dressing (a generic of Miracle whip, I used it as a sandwich spread) and the bran of peanut butter I buy. Many peanut butter brands use soy oil as an emulsifier.

Fruits and vegies that are goitrogens... I limit but have not eliminated.

HFCS is in most sodas, and a surprising number of things all around us. The only thing I consume that has that in it is Mountain Dew. A friend gives me a case of it for my birthday in the summer, and another for Christmas. Occasionally I get a bottle or two other times, as little treats when I'm helping someone with a computer.

I am 'drag butt' for a couple of days after having the Dew. Though the caffeine buzz at the time is pretty nice!

So.. that's me.

The fruits and vegies are still good for us. I dont' think, once your levels are stable and things are going well, that they should be totally eliminated. There is way too much good nutrition there to give up. But when you are still trying to get levels of thyroid hormones stabilized, reducing them to eliminate that variable makes it easier.

As things get better, you can start adding them back in and adjusting thyroid dosage to accommodate. At that point it's simply keeping those fruits and vegies pretty consistent as to how much you eat of them in a week. Then it will all balance out.

The other two, the soy and the HFCS. They both effect us in a different way than the natural foods.

.... I'll try to keep this short, I have a REALLY bad attitude about soy....

The soy products that are added to foods as a protein source were originally byproducts that were found to be too expensive to dispose of. Long story short, after it was found to cause genetic mutation in animals they started finding ways to market it to humans. It's showing up in more and more things cuz they need to find more and more ways to use it up. Ironically I saw a news spot a month or so ago where they were saying that they have a recommendation for how much soy a person should consume a day. I nearly dropped to the floor. They did not say it as you should heat at least this much as a boost to your health, the type of phrasing that would suggest that it's a really good thing and the more you get the better, but eating at least this much will give you a start on it's benefits.... Instead they said that you should eat up this much (I can't remember exactly it was like 35 grams). That suggests, to my biased mind, that they have determined that if you don't eat more than that the negative effects aren't going to be showing up so soon, but if you do eat up to that, you will be another garbage disposal for them. I'm stopping with that.

HFCS. High Fructose Corn Syrup. It's a chemically modified corn sugar. Very cheap to make AND doesn't involve import taxes, which sugar does. That's why it's in so many things. Cheap sweet. In addition to that it triggers a craving in the consumer to have more. Chemically it tastes sweet, nutritionally it isn't very good for our bodies. It affects thyroid hormone, insulin, fat storage... all kinds of things that affect people in a lot of ways. For thyroid specifically it affects both how the gland itself functions AND thyroid hormone conversion. It actually blocks conversion.

It can be really hard to find products that don't contain it. I've given up some things that I REALLY loved just to avoid it. Mountain Dew used to be a daily thing for me... now it's just a treat. After my reaction to it the last time I had it..... maybe if my body responds that way the next time, I'll be giving it up too.

Things that I can think of off the top of my head....

Cold cereals

Corn Flake Crumbs

Breading

Cookies

Cakes

Pies

Soda

Fruit juice drinks

Hot dogs

Ready to eat pudding

Ready to eat gelatin

Candy

Canned fruits

Deli products

Luncheon meats

It's in a LOT more things. Its often not in every brand of an item. But it takes time to look, and you have to keep watch. I've switched brands to HFCS (or soy) free only to find that they have changed their ingredients to include it later.

How important do I feel it is to care about what I eat?

Well.. for as hard as it is to get the thyroid levels optimized and stable. For as Rotten as I feel when they are off. Do I think being lazy about what I eat is justified? NO.

If I watch my levels (in my case I'm a self treater, so I monitor basals to determine how I"m doing), take care in dosing, observe symptoms and body response to med adjustments, does it make sense to not pay attention to what I eat or drink that will throw everything off? Not to me.

I'll admit that I cheat. Due to my budget, and how hard it was to keep track of food ingredients. I found it cheaper, and healthier to go back to scratch cooking and baking.

Oh.. that reminds me.. I recently changed brands of flour. The one that I had been using suddenly changed the labeling to show that soy flour was involved. Can't remember the wording. Even though it might be just an allergy warning change in the labeling and the only soy flour in it was residual cuz soy flour was made in the same mill.... I wont' buy it anymore. I try, as best I can, not to promote the continued use of things that I feel are harming people, and animals.

So.. I bake all my own breads, cakes, pies, cookies, bars... all that stuff. Even make my own bread crumbs. I kick up nutritional content by adding extra things like oatmeal (for fiber) or powdered milk (for calcium and protein) and eggs (for protein). A 'hamburger bun' that I make is a good basis for a meal, it's satisfying, and filling. A hamburger bun from the store, doesn't satisfy, leaves one wanting more... cuz the nutrients are lacking.

I have come up with some recipes and collected recipes that include ingredients that 'better' nutritional content in some way. One I have a lot of fun with is an oatmeal crusted fried chicken. Adding fiber spin to something that normally doesn't have much. I set up a page with oatmeal recipes.. might give some folks some ideas.

www.thyrophoenix.com/add_oatmeal_for_fiber.htm

Other 'evil' things I've modified how I make them, as in shape or size, this page shows my take on pies.

www.toppers-place.com/my_holiday_favs.htm Doing things like this allows me to add variety and fun without going over board, and cuz I make the stuff I have control over portion sizes as well.

I'll stop, I'm getting carried away.

Topper ()

On Tue, 8 May 2007 21:57:55 -0400 (Eastern Daylight Time) "Bernetta Elliott" writes:

,

Hi do you avoid all goitrogens all the time? And if so which ones.thanks, Bernetta

[Guest guest]

Hey -- here are my canary club saliva results and then i'll answer your questions below: Free Cortisol Rhythm7-8 am 19 range is 13-24 normal11-noon 5 range is 5-10 normal4-5 pm 9 range is 3-8 elevated11-midnite 4 range is 1-4 normalDHEA 3

range is 3-10 borderlinefTSH 40 range is 26-85 normalfT4 .18 range is .17-.42 normalfT3 1.26 range is .28-1.10 highTPO negativeEstradiol 13 range is 5-13 normal for follicular stage?Progesterone 29 range is 20-100

normal for follicular stage?Free Testosterone 18 range is 8-20 normaltopper2@... wrote: My first thought is adrenal.. Can we run through some of the basic schtuff? You eat breakfast? rarely, i mostly will drink a cup of decaf coffee with cream and sugar, sometimes i will eat something sweet...... You eat at least 4 or 5 times a

day? no, mostly twice a day You avoid goitrogens? no, it's way too hard to do that, but i'm not the most healthiest eater so i'm sure i'm not overdoing it on the goitrogenic veggies You take vitamins? yes, i'm taking iron, B12, 2 multis, Vitamin C during the day and then at night i take, cal/mag, kelp drops, liquid minerals, vit C.......sometimes, i'll skip it for a couple days if i feel like i'm being overloaded or feel anxious......... Is it worst in the morning and eases up during the day? sometimes........i only started the armour on 5-5-07 and i just noticed the intense lethargy and tightness in chest but it seemed to go away. Monday was a great day but then Tuesday i had some shortness of breath and started feeling panicky.... How about going to sleep at night... do you drop off easily and stay asleep through the night? i do feel some anxiousness before going to sleep because

my mind will have the strangest thoughts coming from nowhere, almost like images, very strange but then i do fall asleep rather soon but i wake up frequently!! Has your sleep pattern changed (how you are falling asleep/staying asleep) since starting the Armour? too soon to tell.......... If the adrenals are over taxed, struggling to keep up with things in a body that is low on thyroid hormone, the adding of thyroid hormone is going to kick up the level of body processes.. that kicks up the work load on the adrenals... causing the fatigue and such, just as you describe. It's actually a normal/predictable thing... How much it affects an individual depends on a gazzillion factors, some don't notice it at all... others are knocked to the ground (exaggeration there)... A quarter grain is a physically small dose, it's gonna be pretty tough to split that..

what you can do is not take it everyday... taking it every other day or every third day.. that will reduce the effect on your body as your body adjusts to the additional thyroid hormone... Do you know if you have any sensitivites to any tableting agents, the stuff that is used to make a pill a pill? not that i know of, i don't think so though........ Topper () On Tue, 8 May 2007 10:02:41 -0700 (PDT) palma joshi <dholakia72 (AT) yahoo (DOT) com> writes: i started taking armour on saturday and only 1/4 grain. i've noticed that i am super, super tired in the morning and even throughout the day. and it's a weird tired, i feel like dead weight, especially my forearms.... you know that feeling that sort of feels weak and tickly when you try to make a fist and can't?

that's how my arms feel.......really weak. and my chest feels a little tight, like it's hard to expand when i breathe. this happened when i tried levoxyl 2 yrs ago also and i couldn't take it and stopped after 9 days. why does this happen? does this mean that i need to take adrenal meds?thanks--palma

Ahhh...imagining that irresistible "new car" smell? Check out

new cars at Yahoo! Autos.

[Guest guest]

Just from my gut.. .as we talk more....

You have the results for the four sample times for the cortisol.... the first one is looking decent.. but the second one drops down to the bottom and the last two are over range and at the top end of the range.. that leads me to belive that the glands are struggling... that ties in with your symptoms.

Not eating a proper breakfast... if we don't eat breakfast, we are using the adrenal hormones to function on, since there is no food for us to use as fuel/energy.. that might account for the levels dropping for the second test... when was your first meal in relation to those spit samples?

The kelp drops are going to be adding iodine to your system... remind me... do you have Hashi's?

Feeling anxious, racing brain, frequent waking..that all ties in with adrenal hormones being too high late night and during sleep. The body is waking in response to the hormones.

Do the tests for me? Spot check your resting pulse through the day. I'm curious what it looks like when you wake, before dosing... Sometime after you eat and noonish.... sometime in the afternoon.... sometime in the evening... as you settle in for bed.... and if you think about it, during one of your night wakenings.

I'm wondering if we can spot a pattern. Remember resting pulse rates, if at all possible... So you want to be sitting quietly for about 15 or 20 minutes before you check it.

I know I'm a breakfast nag... but try to see if you can get something into your stomach besides the coffee. Doesn't have to be a heck of a lot, but try to balance carbs and proteins... even something like peanut bunter toast would be good. Your aim should be something that gives a bit of energy right away with something that takes a while to digest and will give energy/calories for a longer period of time. Having a sweet is going to give a quick burn and then leave you dragging. Especially if mornings are already bad for you.

Topper ()

On Wed, 9 May 2007 07:56:52 -0700 (PDT) palma joshi writes:

Hey --

here are my canary club saliva results and then i'll answer your questions below:

Free Cortisol Rhythm7-8 am 19 range is 13-24 normal11-noon 5 range is 5-10 normal4-5 pm 9 range is 3-8 elevated11-midnite 4 range is 1-4 normalDHEA 3 range is 3-10 borderlinefTSH 40 range is 26-85 normalfT4 .18 range is .17-.42 normalfT3 1.26 range is .28-1.10 highTPO negativeEstradiol 13 range is 5-13 normal for follicular stage?Progesterone 29 range is 20-100 normal for follicular stage?Free Testosterone 18 range is 8-20 normal

[Guest guest]

thanks .... no, i don't have Hashi's. it's gonna be hard for me to do the pulse check during the day but i'll try. i work on the phones so if i can find a time where i've been quiet for awhile, i'll try but otherwise, i'm talking and typing the whole time................ also, do you have other good suggestions for protein/carb mixed meals? topper2@... wrote: Just from my gut.. .as we talk more.... You have the results for the four sample times for the cortisol.... the first one is looking decent.. but the second one drops down to the bottom and the last two are over range and at the top end of the range.. that leads me to belive that the glands are struggling... that ties in with your symptoms. Not eating a proper breakfast... if we don't eat breakfast, we are using the adrenal hormones to function on, since there is no food for us to use as fuel/energy.. that might account for the levels dropping for the second test... when was your first meal in relation to those spit samples? The kelp drops are going to be adding iodine to your system... remind me... do you have Hashi's? Feeling anxious, racing brain, frequent waking..that all ties in with adrenal hormones being too high late night and during sleep. The body is waking in response to the hormones. Do the tests for me? Spot check your resting pulse through the day. I'm curious what it looks like when you wake, before dosing... Sometime after you eat and noonish.... sometime in the afternoon.... sometime in the evening... as you settle in for bed.... and if you think about it, during one of your night wakenings. I'm wondering if we can spot a pattern. Remember resting pulse rates, if at all possible... So you want to be sitting quietly for about 15 or 20 minutes before you check it. I know I'm a breakfast nag... but try to see if you can get something into your stomach besides the coffee. Doesn't have to be a heck of a lot, but try to balance carbs and proteins... even something like peanut bunter toast would be good. Your aim should be something that gives a bit of energy right away with something that takes a while to digest and will give energy/calories for a longer period of

time. Having a sweet is going to give a quick burn and then leave you dragging. Especially if mornings are already bad for you. Topper () On Wed, 9 May 2007 07:56:52 -0700 (PDT) palma joshi <dholakia72 (AT) yahoo (DOT) com> writes: Hey -- here are my canary club saliva results and then i'll answer your questions below: Free Cortisol Rhythm7-8 am 19 range is 13-24 normal11-noon 5 range is 5-10 normal4-5 pm

9 range is 3-8 elevated11-midnite 4 range is 1-4 normalDHEA 3 range is 3-10 borderlinefTSH 40 range is 26-85 normalfT4 .18 range is .17-.42 normalfT3 1.26 range is

..28-1.10 highTPO negativeEstradiol 13 range is 5-13 normal for follicular stage?Progesterone 29 range is 20-100 normal for follicular stage?Free Testosterone 18 range is 8-20 normal

Ahhh...imagining that irresistible "new car" smell? Check out

new cars at Yahoo! Autos.

[Guest guest]

If you are consistently talking and typing that will still give a pattern.... I'm pretty much always on the puter.. typing and such.. that's when I'm spot checking my pulse rates... it's when you are up and walking around, or anxious, when the heart rate kicks up.

Mixed meals... I have a limited repertoire myself.

A good quality bread, not the cheap white stuff.

Top it with

egg (fried, boiled, scrambled, or egg salad)

peanut butter

cheese

sausage

bacon

left over meat from the night before.

some tuna or chicken salad

Drawing a blank here... see what I do is usually have any meal any time.. for example this morning I had a bowl of soup from the batch that I made yesterday. We're expecting warm weather the rest of the week. I don't do well with heat. So a hot bowl of soup in the morning gets a good hot meal into me and some extra fluid. Though tomorrow I might have an egg sandwich or I might do a toasted bun with peanut butter.. it's grabbing what is handy. Most of the time I tend to make it ahead, unless its a toasted bun or egg thing, so that I have no excuses to not eat cuz I don't want to stop to make something. Too easy to not eat breakfast if you have to stop what you are doing to get up to go fix it.

I get up, go potty, pop my first thyroid dose (sublingually) then work on emails and such till it's dissolved and I can head to the kitchen to eat.

Consider your tastes. Dont' go hog wild with portions or calories.. but if one meal a day has to be the highest calorie one, it should be breakfast... My meals are all pretty much the same, calorie wise... somewhere between 250 and 350.

You can vary things by having a bit more 'extravagant' breakfast one day and a leaner one the next... but you should never ever skip.. if time is tight and you are running out the door... a piece of fruit and some cheese... or even just the fruit. It would be better than going without. Try to follow the fruit in the next couple of hours with something a bit more solid for sustained energy.

When I was still working I did a lot of meatballs. They were made with oatmeal.. I baked them and froze them so they were always quick to grab and neat to eat. Meat and carb all in a little 'pop in your mouth' bite. Adding BBQ sauce in the meat mixture gave them a nice little kick without making them messy to eat. Finger food.

I don't know if the gives you any ideas.. I hope it will give some direction as you wander your kitchen or the store...

Topper ()

On Wed, 9 May 2007 12:25:06 -0700 (PDT) palma joshi writes:

thanks ....

no, i don't have Hashi's. it's gonna be hard for me to do the pulse check during the day but i'll try. i work on the phones so if i can find a time where i've been quiet for awhile, i'll try but otherwise, i'm talking and typing the whole time................

also, do you have other good suggestions for protein/carb mixed meals?

[Guest guest]

Hi

Thanks for this info.

I don't eat any HFCS and haven't in yrs. I don't eat any sugar at all. I only use Stevia. I don't eat any gluten either. I was wondering about the vegs. It you stay away from all the goieter ones. Oh I don't eat any soy either. When I did it killed my stomach. Thanks, Bernetta

-- Re: Extreme fatigue and tightness in chest

There are only two things that I still consume with soy in them... My salad dressing (a generic of Miracle whip, I used it as a sandwich spread) and the bran of peanut butter I buy. Many peanut butter brands use soy oil as an emulsifier.

Fruits and vegies that are goitrogens... I limit but have not eliminated.

HFCS is in most sodas, and a surprising number of things all around us. The only thing I consume that has that in it is Mountain Dew. A friend gives me a case of it for my birthday in the summer, and another for Christmas. Occasionally I get a bottle or two other times, as little treats when I'm helping someone with a computer.

I am 'drag butt' for a couple of days after having the Dew. Though the caffeine buzz at the time is pretty nice!

So.. that's me.

The fruits and vegies are still good for us. I dont' think, once your levels are stable and things are going well, that they should be totally eliminated. There is way too much good nutrition there to give up. But when you are still trying to get levels of thyroid hormones stabilized, reducing them to eliminate that variable makes it easier.

As things get better, you can start adding them back in and adjusting thyroid dosage to accommodate. At that point it's simply keeping those fruits and vegies pretty consistent as to how much you eat of them in a week. Then it will all balance out.

The other two, the soy and the HFCS. They both effect us in a different way than the natural foods.

.... I'll try to keep this short, I have a REALLY bad attitude about soy....

The soy products that are added to foods as a protein source were originally byproducts that were found to be too expensive to dispose of. Long story short, after it was found to cause genetic mutation in animals they started finding ways to market it to humans. It's showing up in more and more things cuz they need to find more and more ways to use it up. Ironically I saw a news spot a month or so ago where they were saying that they have a recommendation for how much soy a person should consume a day. I nearly dropped to the floor. They did not say it as you should heat at least this much as a boost to your health, the type of phrasing that would suggest that it's a really good thing and the more you get the better, but eating at least this much will give you a start on it's benefits.... Instead they said that you should eat up this much (I can't remember exactly it was like 35 grams). That suggests, to my biased mind, that they have determined that if you don't eat more than that the negative effects aren't going to be showing up so soon, but if you do eat up to that, you will be another garbage disposal for them. I'm stopping with that.

HFCS. High Fructose Corn Syrup. It's a chemically modified corn sugar. Very cheap to make AND doesn't involve import taxes, which sugar does. That's why it's in so many things. Cheap sweet. In addition to that it triggers a craving in the consumer to have more. Chemically it tastes sweet, nutritionally it isn't very good for our bodies. It affects thyroid hormone, insulin, fat storage... all kinds of things that affect people in a lot of ways. For thyroid specifically it affects both how the gland itself functions AND thyroid hormone conversion. It actually blocks conversion.

It can be really hard to find products that don't contain it. I've given up some things that I REALLY loved just to avoid it. Mountain Dew used to be a daily thing for me... now it's just a treat. After my reaction to it the last time I had it..... maybe if my body responds that way the next time, I'll be giving it up too.

Things that I can think of off the top of my head....

Cold cereals

Corn Flake Crumbs

Breading

Cookies

Cakes

Pies

Soda

Fruit juice drinks

Hot dogs

Ready to eat pudding

Ready to eat gelatin

Candy

Canned fruits

Deli products

Luncheon meats

It's in a LOT more things. Its often not in every brand of an item. But it takes time to look, and you have to keep watch. I've switched brands to HFCS (or soy) free only to find that they have changed their ingredients to include it later.

How important do I feel it is to care about what I eat?

Well.. for as hard as it is to get the thyroid levels optimized and stable. For as Rotten as I feel when they are off. Do I think being lazy about what I eat is justified? NO.

If I watch my levels (in my case I'm a self treater, so I monitor basals to determine how I"m doing), take care in dosing, observe symptoms and body response to med adjustments, does it make sense to not pay attention to what I eat or drink that will throw everything off? Not to me.

I'll admit that I cheat. Due to my budget, and how hard it was to keep track of food ingredients. I found it cheaper, and healthier to go back to scratch cooking and baking.

Oh.. that reminds me.. I recently changed brands of flour. The one that I had been using suddenly changed the labeling to show that soy flour was involved. Can't remember the wording. Even though it might be just an allergy warning change in the labeling and the only soy flour in it was residual cuz soy flour was made in the same mill.... I wont' buy it anymore. I try, as best I can, not to promote the continued use of things that I feel are harming people, and animals.

So.. I bake all my own breads, cakes, pies, cookies, bars... all that stuff. Even make my own bread crumbs. I kick up nutritional content by adding extra things like oatmeal (for fiber) or powdered milk (for calcium and protein) and eggs (for protein). A 'hamburger bun' that I make is a good basis for a meal, it's satisfying, and filling. A hamburger bun from the store, doesn't satisfy, leaves one wanting more... cuz the nutrients are lacking.

I have come up with some recipes and collected recipes that include ingredients that 'better' nutritional content in some way. One I have a lot of fun with is an oatmeal crusted fried chicken. Adding fiber spin to something that normally doesn't have much. I set up a page with oatmeal recipes.. might give some folks some ideas.

www.thyrophoenix.com/add_oatmeal_for_fiber.htm

Other 'evil' things I've modified how I make them, as in shape or size, this page shows my take on pies.

www.toppers-place.com/my_holiday_favs.htm Doing things like this allows me to add variety and fun without going over board, and cuz I make the stuff I have control over portion sizes as well.

I'll stop, I'm getting carried away.

Topper ()

On Tue, 8 May 2007 21:57:55 -0400 (Eastern Daylight Time) "Bernetta Elliott" writes:

,

Hi do you avoid all goitrogens all the time? And if so which ones.thanks, Bernetta