Hospitals, Jail officials don't want to collect suspects' blood

January 11, 2009

AUSTIN POLICE

Hospitals, jail officials don't want to collect suspects' blood

Officials cite different reasons for not wanting to draw blood of drunken

driving suspects.

By Tony Plohetski

AMERICAN-STATESMAN STAFF

Friday, January 09, 2009

Leaders of the city's two major hospital networks and County Jail

officials have told Austin police that they no longer wish to collect blood

evidence of suspects in criminal investigations.

Officials for the county's central jail booking facility, where such samples

have traditionally been taken, informed police last year that they no longer

wanted nurses involved in the practice. Jail nurses stopped taking the samples,

which are mostly used in drunken driving cases, on Jan. 1.

Hospital representatives have since asked Austin police not to bring suspects to

emergency rooms for blood draws, a procedure that has grown in popularity among

law enforcement agencies and prompted controversy locally.

Jail and hospital officials cite a variety of reasons for their decisions.

A Seton Family of Hospitals official said workers are worried about lawsuits,

among other concerns. However, an expert in such blood draws for drunken driving

cases said state laws are clear that nurses and hospitals are protected from

such suits.

Dr. Steve Berkowitz, chief medical director for St. 's HealthCare, said,

" We don't really feel that the emergency room is really the most appropriate

place to be doing those types of procedures, because they really aren't being

seen for a medical reason. " Berkowitz said hospital officials still support

police efforts to curb drunken driving.

Staff with the County Sheriff's Office, which runs the jail, have decided

that nurses should spend their time tending to inmates, not collecting evidence.

Police say they must now find a new way to get samples in cases in which they

think the evidence is necessary.

" We have a moral and legal obligation to obtain evidence of a crime, and our

ability to do so is being hampered by the decisions of entities we have no

control over, " Police Chief Art Acevedo said. " It presents a tremendous

challenge for us. "

The decisions come as the use of blood tests in drunken driving cases has grown

among Austin police officers and others across the state.

During the New Year's Eve and Halloween holidays, Austin police conducted

so-called " no refusal " operations in which they obtained the blood of drunken

driving suspects who refused to give a breath test.

The department hired a phlebotomist for those operations, but has still sought

blood samples for suspects when the " no refusal " efforts were not in place.

Police estimate they have averaged about 30 such blood draws per month in recent

months.

The effort to obtain blood evidence, which courts have upheld as a practice, has

created controversy, with civil libertarians saying that blood draws are an

unnecessary invasion. They say that officers should be able to build cases

without such procedures.

Among other major Texas cities that also have begun collecting such samples,

most, including San and Houston, continue having jail nurses draw

suspects' blood, said Clay Abbott, a DWI resource prosecutor for the Texas

District and County Attorneys Association.

Fort Worth police take suspects to a local hospital for the procedure, he said.

Local paramedics collect blood samples in some small towns.

State laws allow police to use search warrants to obtain suspects' blood, which

Abbott said gives nurses and hospitals lawsuit protection because they are

acting under court order.

The law also permits police to draw the blood of suspects in drunken driving

crashes involving serious injury or death without a search warrant. Abbott said

nurses and medical facilities still have legal protection in those instances, as

long as they are acting in the scope of their normal duties.

According to the law, " The person who takes the blood specimen under this

chapter, or the hospital where the blood specimen is taken, is not liable for

damages arising from the request or order of the peace officer to take the blood

specimen. "

Abbott and Jim Harrington, director of the Texas Civil Rights Project, said they

are both unaware of any lawsuits in Texas against medical officials who have

drawn blood of drunken driving suspects.

Greg Hartman, senior vice president for Seton, said hospital officials want more

time to understand legal issues and other matters before collecting such

samples.

For instance, he said emergency room nurses do not perform medical procedures

without a doctor's order. When drawing blood for a criminal case, doctors seldom

evaluate suspects, creating concerns among the nurses, he said.

Hartman said hospital officials also want to further discuss with police who

will pay the salaries of nurses if they are called to testify in court for such

cases. He said he is not aware of any nurses that have been summoned to court so

far for such cases.

And Hartman said the legality of nurses collecting blood evidence hasn't been

tested in court and that officials are concerned about suits against employees

or hospitals.

" This is a very complicated issue, " Hartman said. " We aren't making decisions as

to whether (law enforcement) should be doing this. "

County sheriff's office Maj. Mark Sawa, whose agency was the first to

prohibit nurses from drawing suspects' blood for evidence, said officials

decided that they also did not want jail nurses called to testify in court cases

and missing work.

He said that providing inmate care is their " essential function " and that the

department is seeking a national certification in which jail nurses are not

involved in evidence gathering.

Acevedo said police officials are now trying to find other options for

collecting blood, including possible contracts with private clinics. He said it

also is possible that the department might train a team of officers to collect

blood.

Acevedo said he has no estimates on the cost of a possible contract or training

of officers.

In the meantime, he said, officials will try to work out a temporary plan with

either the jail or a hospital.

" We are going to do what we need to do to secure the evidence we need while

minimizing the cost to taxpayers, " he said.

tplohetski@...; 445-3605

Buzz up! Vote for this story!

January 11, 2009

AMEN, BROTHER, AMEN!

Gene Gandy, JD, LP, NREMT-P

Former District Attorney who says, " This is would be a terrible law. "

>

> Of the times I have drawn blood, there have been several instances where I

> had to go to court and testify about the patient's condition (or condition

> of the body) and the technique used (e.g., alcohol prep, Betadine). You

> spend a lot of time (sometimes a whole day) waiting to testify. Will career

> EMS agencies pay their employees for sitting around the court house waiting

> to testify? What about time lost from work for volunteers? This is nothing

> but governmental cost shifting. Anytime the government shifts costs,

> emergency medicine and EMS get screwed. Buy a water-based lubricant...

>

> I say we establish the " First Texas Church of EMS " and make one of our

> theological doctrines state that we are against drawing blood for law

> enforcement and making us do so violates our most closely held religious

> beliefs. Can I get an Amen?

>

> BEB

>

> Hospitals, Jail officials don't

> want to collect suspects' blood

>

> AUSTIN POLICEHospitals, jail officials don't want to collect suspects'

> bloodOfficials cite different reasons for not wanting to draw blood of

> drunken driving suspects.By Tony PlohetskiAMERICAN- drunken driving suspec

> January 09, 2009 Leaders of the city's two major hospital networks and

> County Jail officials have told Austin police that they no longer

> wish to collect blood evidence of suspects in criminal investigations.

> Officials for the county's central jail booking facility, where such samples

> have traditionally been taken, informed police last year that they no longer

> wanted nurses involved in the practice. Jail nurses stopped taking the

> samples, which are mostly used in drunken driving cases, on Jan. 1. Hospital

> representatives have since asked Austin police not to bring suspects to

> emergency rooms for blood draws, a procedure that has grown in popularity

> among law enforcement agencies and prompted controversy locally. Jail and

> hospital officials cite a variety of reasons for their decisions. A Seton

> Family of Hospitals official said workers are worried about lawsuits, among

> other concerns. However, an expert in such blood draws for drunken driving

> cases said state laws are clear that nurses and hospitals are protected from

> such suits. Dr. Steve Berkowitz, chief medical director for St. 's

> HealthCare, said, " We don't really feel that the emergency room is really

> the most appropriate place to be doing those types of procedures, because

> they really aren't being seen for a medical reason. " Berkowitz said hospital

> officials still support police efforts to curb drunken driving. Staff with

> the County Sheriff's Office, which runs the jail, have decided that

> nurses should spend their time tending to inmates, not collecting evidence.

> Police say they must now find a new way to get samples in cases in which

> they think the evidence is necessary. " We have a moral and legal obligation

> to obtain evidence of a crime, and our ability to do so is being hampered by

> the decisions of entities we have no control over, " Police Chief Art Acevedo

> said. " It presents a tremendous challenge for us. " The decisions come as the

> use of blood tests in drunken driving cases has grown among Austin police

> officers and others across the state. During the New Year's Eve and

> Halloween holidays, Austin police conducted so-called " no refusal "

> operations in which they obtained the blood of drunken driving suspects who

> refused to give a breath test. The department hired a phlebotomist for those

> operations, but has still sought blood samples for suspects when the " no

> refusal " efforts were not in place. Police estimate they have averaged about

> 30 such blood draws per month in recent months. The effort to obtain blood

> evidence, which courts have upheld as a practice, has created controversy,

> with civil libertarians saying that blood draws are an unnecessary invasion.

> They say that officers should be able to build cases without such

> procedures. Among other major Texas cities that also have begun collecting

> such samples, most, including San and Houston, continue having jail

> nurses draw suspects' blood, said Clay Abbott, a DWI resource prosecutor for

> the Texas District and County Attorneys Association. Fort Worth police take

> suspects to a local hospital for the procedure, he said. Local paramedics

> collect blood samples in some small towns. State laws allow police to use

> search warrants to obtain suspects' blood, which Abbott said gives nurses

> and hospitals lawsuit protection because they are acting under court order.

> The law also permits police to draw the blood of suspects in drunken driving

> crashes involving serious injury or death without a search warrant. Abbott

> said nurses and medical facilities still have legal protection in those

> instances, as long as they are acting in the scope of their normal duties.

> According to the law, " The person who takes the blood specimen under this

> chapter, or the hospital where the blood specimen is taken, is not liable

> for damages arising from the request or order of the peace officer to take

> the blood specimen. " Abbott and Jim Harrington, director of the Texas Civil

> Rights Project, said they are both unaware of any lawsuits in Texas against

> medical officials who have drawn blood of drunken driving suspects. Greg

> Hartman, senior vice president for Seton, said hospital officials want more

> time to understand legal issues and other matters before collecting such

> samples. For instance, he said emergency room nurses do not perform medical

> procedures without a doctor's order. When drawing blood for a criminal case,

> doctors seldom evaluate suspects, creating concerns among the nurses, he

> said. Hartman said hospital officials also want to further discuss with

> police who will pay the salaries of nurses if they are called to testify in

> court for such cases. He said he is not aware of any nurses that have been

> summoned to court so far for such cases. And Hartman said the legality of

> nurses collecting blood evidence hasn't been tested in court and that

> officials are concerned about suits against employees or hospitals. " This is

> a very complicated issue, " Hartman said. " We aren't making decisions as to

> whether (law enforcement) should be doing this. " County sheriff's

> office Maj. Mark Sawa, whose agency was the first to prohibit nurses from

> drawing suspects' blood for evidence, said officials decided that they also

> did not want jail nurses called to testify in court cases and missing work.

> He said that providing inmate care is their " essential function " and that

> the department is seeking a national certification in which jail nurses are

> not involved in evidence gathering. Acevedo said police officials are now

> trying to find other options for collecting blood, including possible

> contracts with private clinics. He said it also is possible that the

> department might train a team of officers to collect blood. Acevedo said he

> has no estimates on the cost of a possible contract or training of officers.

> In the meantime, he said, officials will try to work out a temporary plan

> with either the jail or a hospital. " We are going to do what we need to do

> to secure the evidence we need while minimizing the cost to taxpayers, " he

> said. tplohetski@statesmatploh; 445-3605 Buzz up! Vote for this

> story!

January 11, 2009

You know, it is just my opinion and this has all been discussed in Texas EMS

over and over before when legislation has been out forth to be passed to require

EMS services to do this. We have fought it again and again. It appears to me

that the least expensive way and the way to make every other medical service and

agency out there happy is to do what is mentioned at the end of this article -

train your own officers to do it. It is NOT difficult, NOT a long training

session, and it leaves the " liability " if any as well as the testifying with the

folks already involved and who are trained to testify and to gather other

evidence.

We support our offices in every other way as do the hospitals who have stood up

and refused to do this any longer. But what makes senses in this area is for

the officers to be able to take care of it. It is not abandoning them to want

them to take care of it; it is not a matter of wanting the drunks to get off.

It is just makes more sense.

Jane Dinsmore

To: texasems-l@...: haussecker87@...: Sun, 11 Jan

2009 09:38:32 -0600Subject: Hospitals, Jail officials don't want to

collect suspects' blood

AUSTIN POLICEHospitals, jail officials don't want to collect suspects'

bloodOfficials cite different reasons for not wanting to draw blood of drunken

driving suspects.By Tony PlohetskiAMERICAN-STATESMAN STAFF Friday, January 09,

2009 Leaders of the city's two major hospital networks and County Jail

officials have told Austin police that they no longer wish to collect blood

evidence of suspects in criminal investigations. Officials for the county's

central jail booking facility, where such samples have traditionally been taken,

informed police last year that they no longer wanted nurses involved in the

practice. Jail nurses stopped taking the samples, which are mostly used in

drunken driving cases, on Jan. 1. Hospital representatives have since asked

Austin police not to bring suspects to emergency rooms for blood draws, a

procedure that has grown in popularity among law enforcement agencies and

prompted controversy locally. Jail and hospital officials cite a variety of

reasons for their decisions. A Seton Family of Hospitals official said workers

are worried about lawsuits, among other concerns. However, an expert in such

blood draws for drunken driving cases said state laws are clear that nurses and

hospitals are protected from such suits. Dr. Steve Berkowitz, chief medical

director for St. 's HealthCare, said, " We don't really feel that the

emergency room is really the most appropriate place to be doing those types of

procedures, because they really aren't being seen for a medical

reason. " Berkowitz said hospital officials still support police efforts to curb

drunken driving. Staff with the County Sheriff's Office, which runs the

jail, have decided that nurses should spend their time tending to inmates, not

collecting evidence. Police say they must now find a new way to get samples in

cases in which they think the evidence is necessary. " We have a moral and legal

obligation to obtain evidence of a crime, and our ability to do so is being

hampered by the decisions of entities we have no control over, " Police Chief Art

Acevedo said. " It presents a tremendous challenge for us. " The decisions come as

the use of blood tests in drunken driving cases has grown among Austin police

officers and others across the state. During the New Year's Eve and Halloween

holidays, Austin police conducted so-called " no refusal " operations in which

they obtained the blood of drunken driving suspects who refused to give a breath

test. The department hired a phlebotomist for those operations, but has still

sought blood samples for suspects when the " no refusal " efforts were not in

place. Police estimate they have averaged about 30 such blood draws per month in

recent months. The effort to obtain blood evidence, which courts have upheld as

a practice, has created controversy, with civil libertarians saying that blood

draws are an unnecessary invasion. They say that officers should be able to

build cases without such procedures. Among other major Texas cities that also

have begun collecting such samples, most, including San and Houston,

continue having jail nurses draw suspects' blood, said Clay Abbott, a DWI

resource prosecutor for the Texas District and County Attorneys Association.

Fort Worth police take suspects to a local hospital for the procedure, he said.

Local paramedics collect blood samples in some small towns. State laws allow

police to use search warrants to obtain suspects' blood, which Abbott said gives

nurses and hospitals lawsuit protection because they are acting under court

order. The law also permits police to draw the blood of suspects in drunken

driving crashes involving serious injury or death without a search warrant.

Abbott said nurses and medical facilities still have legal protection in those

instances, as long as they are acting in the scope of their normal duties.

According to the law, " The person who takes the blood specimen under this

chapter, or the hospital where the blood specimen is taken, is not liable for

damages arising from the request or order of the peace officer to take the blood

specimen. " Abbott and Jim Harrington, director of the Texas Civil Rights

Project, said they are both unaware of any lawsuits in Texas against medical

officials who have drawn blood of drunken driving suspects. Greg Hartman, senior

vice president for Seton, said hospital officials want more time to understand

legal issues and other matters before collecting such samples. For instance, he

said emergency room nurses do not perform medical procedures without a doctor's

order. When drawing blood for a criminal case, doctors seldom evaluate suspects,

creating concerns among the nurses, he said. Hartman said hospital officials

also want to further discuss with police who will pay the salaries of nurses if

they are called to testify in court for such cases. He said he is not aware of

any nurses that have been summoned to court so far for such cases. And Hartman

said the legality of nurses collecting blood evidence hasn't been tested in

court and that officials are concerned about suits against employees or

hospitals. " This is a very complicated issue, " Hartman said. " We aren't making

decisions as to whether (law enforcement) should be doing this. " County

sheriff's office Maj. Mark Sawa, whose agency was the first to prohibit nurses

from drawing suspects' blood for evidence, said officials decided that they also

did not want jail nurses called to testify in court cases and missing work. He

said that providing inmate care is their " essential function " and that the

department is seeking a national certification in which jail nurses are not

involved in evidence gathering. Acevedo said police officials are now trying to

find other options for collecting blood, including possible contracts with

private clinics. He said it also is possible that the department might train a

team of officers to collect blood. Acevedo said he has no estimates on the cost

of a possible contract or training of officers. In the meantime, he said,

officials will try to work out a temporary plan with either the jail or a

hospital. " We are going to do what we need to do to secure the evidence we need

while minimizing the cost to taxpayers, " he said. tplohetski@...;

445-3605 Buzz up! Vote for this story![Non-text portions of this message have

been removed]

_________________________________________________________________

Windows Live™ Hotmail®: Chat. Store. Share. Do more with mail.

http://windowslive.com/howitworks?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_t1_hm_justgotbetter_howitwor\

ks_012009

January 11, 2009

Sorry about the typos. Just got out of the hospital a couple days ago and still

a little " off " . LOL

http://windowslive.com/explore?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_t1_allup_explore_012009

January 11, 2009

Of the times I have drawn blood, there have been several instances where I

had to go to court and testify about the patient's condition (or condition

of the body) and the technique used (e.g., alcohol prep, Betadine). You

spend a lot of time (sometimes a whole day) waiting to testify. Will career

EMS agencies pay their employees for sitting around the court house waiting

to testify? What about time lost from work for volunteers? This is nothing

but governmental cost shifting. Anytime the government shifts costs,

emergency medicine and EMS get screwed. Buy a water-based lubricant...

I say we establish the " First Texas Church of EMS " and make one of our

theological doctrines state that we are against drawing blood for law

enforcement and making us do so violates our most closely held religious

beliefs. Can I get an Amen?

BEB

Hospitals, Jail officials don't

want to collect suspects' blood

AUSTIN POLICEHospitals, jail officials don't want to collect suspects'

bloodOfficials cite different reasons for not wanting to draw blood of

drunken driving suspects.By Tony PlohetskiAMERICAN-STATESMAN STAFF Friday,

January 09, 2009 Leaders of the city's two major hospital networks and

County Jail officials have told Austin police that they no longer

wish to collect blood evidence of suspects in criminal investigations.

Officials for the county's central jail booking facility, where such samples

have traditionally been taken, informed police last year that they no longer

wanted nurses involved in the practice. Jail nurses stopped taking the

samples, which are mostly used in drunken driving cases, on Jan. 1. Hospital

representatives have since asked Austin police not to bring suspects to

emergency rooms for blood draws, a procedure that has grown in popularity

among law enforcement agencies and prompted controversy locally. Jail and

hospital officials cite a variety of reasons for their decisions. A Seton

Family of Hospitals official said workers are worried about lawsuits, among

other concerns. However, an expert in such blood draws for drunken driving

cases said state laws are clear that nurses and hospitals are protected from

such suits. Dr. Steve Berkowitz, chief medical director for St. 's

HealthCare, said, " We don't really feel that the emergency room is really

the most appropriate place to be doing those types of procedures, because

they really aren't being seen for a medical reason. " Berkowitz said hospital

officials still support police efforts to curb drunken driving. Staff with

the County Sheriff's Office, which runs the jail, have decided that

nurses should spend their time tending to inmates, not collecting evidence.

Police say they must now find a new way to get samples in cases in which

they think the evidence is necessary. " We have a moral and legal obligation

to obtain evidence of a crime, and our ability to do so is being hampered by

the decisions of entities we have no control over, " Police Chief Art Acevedo

said. " It presents a tremendous challenge for us. " The decisions come as the

use of blood tests in drunken driving cases has grown among Austin police

officers and others across the state. During the New Year's Eve and

Halloween holidays, Austin police conducted so-called " no refusal "

operations in which they obtained the blood of drunken driving suspects who

refused to give a breath test. The department hired a phlebotomist for those

operations, but has still sought blood samples for suspects when the " no

refusal " efforts were not in place. Police estimate they have averaged about

30 such blood draws per month in recent months. The effort to obtain blood

evidence, which courts have upheld as a practice, has created controversy,

with civil libertarians saying that blood draws are an unnecessary invasion.

They say that officers should be able to build cases without such

procedures. Among other major Texas cities that also have begun collecting

such samples, most, including San and Houston, continue having jail

nurses draw suspects' blood, said Clay Abbott, a DWI resource prosecutor for

the Texas District and County Attorneys Association. Fort Worth police take

suspects to a local hospital for the procedure, he said. Local paramedics

collect blood samples in some small towns. State laws allow police to use

search warrants to obtain suspects' blood, which Abbott said gives nurses

and hospitals lawsuit protection because they are acting under court order.

The law also permits police to draw the blood of suspects in drunken driving

crashes involving serious injury or death without a search warrant. Abbott

said nurses and medical facilities still have legal protection in those

instances, as long as they are acting in the scope of their normal duties.

According to the law, " The person who takes the blood specimen under this

chapter, or the hospital where the blood specimen is taken, is not liable

for damages arising from the request or order of the peace officer to take

the blood specimen. " Abbott and Jim Harrington, director of the Texas Civil

Rights Project, said they are both unaware of any lawsuits in Texas against

medical officials who have drawn blood of drunken driving suspects. Greg

Hartman, senior vice president for Seton, said hospital officials want more

time to understand legal issues and other matters before collecting such

samples. For instance, he said emergency room nurses do not perform medical

procedures without a doctor's order. When drawing blood for a criminal case,

doctors seldom evaluate suspects, creating concerns among the nurses, he

said. Hartman said hospital officials also want to further discuss with

police who will pay the salaries of nurses if they are called to testify in

court for such cases. He said he is not aware of any nurses that have been

summoned to court so far for such cases. And Hartman said the legality of

nurses collecting blood evidence hasn't been tested in court and that

officials are concerned about suits against employees or hospitals. " This is

a very complicated issue, " Hartman said. " We aren't making decisions as to

whether (law enforcement) should be doing this. " County sheriff's

office Maj. Mark Sawa, whose agency was the first to prohibit nurses from

drawing suspects' blood for evidence, said officials decided that they also

did not want jail nurses called to testify in court cases and missing work.

He said that providing inmate care is their " essential function " and that

the department is seeking a national certification in which jail nurses are

not involved in evidence gathering. Acevedo said police officials are now

trying to find other options for collecting blood, including possible

contracts with private clinics. He said it also is possible that the

department might train a team of officers to collect blood. Acevedo said he

has no estimates on the cost of a possible contract or training of officers.

In the meantime, he said, officials will try to work out a temporary plan

with either the jail or a hospital. " We are going to do what we need to do

to secure the evidence we need while minimizing the cost to taxpayers, " he

said. tplohetski@...; 445-3605 Buzz up! Vote for this

story!

January 11, 2009

Amen and preach on Jane. You both are right on the mark.

Another issue is what about those services where the Medical Director

specifically forbids the medics to draw blood. Then the medic is in a position

of violate protocol and lose job or go to jail.

Dave

Sent via BlackBerry by AT & T