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Rob,

Your definition of " EMS " appears to differ from that of the State of Texas. All

organizations operating ambulances in Texas are classified as EMS Providers -

those that do not get dispatched via 911 are not segregated or separately

regulated. ALL of them are considered " EMS Providers " and have the same

requirements for licensure.

It is NOT the same as the distinction between police and private security. In

those cases, the training, responsibilities, authority, etc., are drastically

different. In the EMS field, the only significant differences are the way they

are dispatched and the type (medical, trauma, etc.) of call that they usually

respond to. Even the most " private " of services that normally do only routine

transports may roll up on an MVA - in which case they are constrained to stop

and act.

Your attitude appears to be another case of considering some people in the EMS

(state definition) field to be " just ambulance drivers " - and that is something

we definitely don't need.

SB

Subject: RE: Re: Houston

To: texasems-l

Date: Wednesday, December 31, 2008, 8:49 AM

On Wednesday, December 31, 2008 08:08, " mood " <mlindamood (AT) aemstar (DOT)

com> said:

> Rob,

>

> I would like to take note of what you said about the service “not being E

> MS, it was just an ambulance service”! I work for AEMSTAR EMS, a PRIVATE

> AMBULANCE SERVICE. We run our share of emergency calls and transfer calls.

>

> We DESERVE the same respect as that of any other EMS service. By the way, The

> service that was involved in the accident runs the 911 service for Pasadena,

> Texas, and runs 911 calls up in the Tyler area.

I stand corrected on the service involved in this incident. Generally speaking,

a private ambulance in the City of Houston equals non-EMS, so it was a logical

assumption. The error was on the part of whoever reported this to be a private

service in the first place.

I don't know anything about your agency. However, I maintain that, if a service

is not 911 dispatched, it is not EMS, no matter how many of their transfers

happen to turn emergent. Recognising that reality does not in any way disrespect

you or the job you do. It simply makes a technical distinction. It is the very

same distinction I would make between a police department and a private security

agency.

Rob

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Well said.

RE: Re: Houston

To: texasems-l

Date: Wednesday, December 31, 2008, 8:49 AM

On Wednesday, December 31, 2008 08:08, " mood " <mlindamood (AT) aemstar (DOT)

com> said:

> Rob,

>

> I would like to take note of what you said about the service " not being E

> MS, it was just an ambulance service " ! I work for AEMSTAR EMS, a PRIVATE

> AMBULANCE SERVICE. We run our share of emergency calls and transfer calls.

>

> We DESERVE the same respect as that of any other EMS service. By the way, The

> service that was involved in the accident runs the 911 service for Pasadena,

> Texas, and runs 911 calls up in the Tyler area.

I stand corrected on the service involved in this incident. Generally speaking,

a private ambulance in the City of Houston equals non-EMS, so it was a logical

assumption. The error was on the part of whoever reported this to be a private

service in the first place.

I don't know anything about your agency. However, I maintain that, if a service

is not 911 dispatched, it is not EMS, no matter how many of their transfers

happen to turn emergent. Recognising that reality does not in any way disrespect

you or the job you do. It simply makes a technical distinction. It is the very

same distinction I would make between a police department and a private security

agency.

Rob

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Rob,

Then you are definitely wrong on your analogy. My license from the state is the

same as the one hanging on any municipalities wall-issued after careful scrutiny

of our protocols, policies, procedures, insurance, etc. A security company does

not meet the same requirement as a pd, not in the companies licensing nor in the

individual professionals licensing. I was called during the 2 year licensing by

a state specialist several years ago, and he said that I had not filled a

document out correctly- that I did not list a 911 area(or include a map). I

advised him that technically, I did not get paid to cover, nor was I contracted

to provide that service to anyone. We have mutual aid agreements, back the

municipality in the area, covering when they are at a structure fire or all

ambulances are busy, and we receive a lot of emergency calls directly because of

the care and compassion that we offer, as well as the skill set that we offer.

The ems specialist started to say " but these aren't the protocols of a " and

stopped himself. -I replied " of a transfer service? " He said " You know I can't

say that. These protocols are very advanced. " I posed the following question to

him, " Does a patient in a skilled nursing facility, or a patient with an active

mi going from a rural hospital to an urban cath lab, deserve less care? " I spend

a lot of money to advance the level of care in my service. I pay a lot of money

to the professional which I hire. I am not oblivios to the fact that a lot of

private services have minimal protocols, hire young and inexperienced emts or

medical professionals(we won't hire you unless you are 23 to satisfy what I feel

is a brilliant requirement on the part of my insurance company), and provide

mainly dialysis transports. Most of the professionals which work for me came out

of 911; I have worked 911; there are very few true emegencies compared to the

level of abuse. Just listen to the number of non-emergent transports from scene

to hospital in your area, if you are able. I have been watching closely the

assumptions made in the ambulance accident. There are too many factors unknown

at this time to pass judgement.

Have a good holiday, and try not to lump people into a category-it's no

different than someone from navy saying " Oh, your army, your #### doesn't float. "

There's fun and games, and then there is business. We provide a valuable,

needed, service.

Akin

Akin Ambulance

Sent from my BlackBerry® smartphone with SprintSpeed

RE: Re: Houston

On Wednesday, December 31, 2008 08:08, " mood "

said:

> Rob,

>

> I would like to take note of what you said about the service “not being E

> MS, it was just an ambulance serviceâ€! I work for AEMSTAR EMS, a PRIVATE

> AMBULANCE SERVICE. We run our share of emergency calls and transfer calls.

>

> We DESERVE the same respect as that of any other EMS service. By the way, The

> service that was involved in the accident runs the 911 service for Pasadena,

> Texas, and runs 911 calls up in the Tyler area.

I stand corrected on the service involved in this incident. Generally speaking,

a private ambulance in the City of Houston equals non-EMS, so it was a logical

assumption. The error was on the part of whoever reported this to be a private

service in the first place.

I don't know anything about your agency. However, I maintain that, if a service

is not 911 dispatched, it is not EMS, no matter how many of their transfers

happen to turn emergent. Recognising that reality does not in any way

disrespect you or the job you do. It simply makes a technical distinction. It

is the very same distinction I would make between a police department and a

private security agency.

Rob

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ok, since security officers are ot REAL cops, then are you saying that that

transfer medics are not real paramedics? I know a lot of transfer guys that I

trust a whole lot more some some of your so called REAL medics. You need to

retink your statement ..........

---

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Wow!! Sounds like they know each other.

Andy Foote

RE: Re: Houston

ok, since security officers are ot REAL cops, then are you saying that

that transfer medics are not real paramedics? I know a lot of transfer

guys that I trust a whole lot more some some of your so called REAL

medics. You need to retink your statement ..........

---

Â

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Joe,

Look at it this way...Does a security guard go through the same training

that a LEO goes through? I don't think so. Does a Paramedic or EMT that

works for a transfer service go through the same training that a Paramedic

or EMT that works at a 911 provider does? Of course they do. There is your

analogy.

Thom Seeber, CCEMT-P

RE: Re: Houston

ok, since security officers are ot REAL cops, then are you saying that that

transfer medics are not real paramedics? I know a lot of transfer guys that

I trust a whole lot more some some of your so called REAL medics. You need

to retink your statement ..........

---

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I have had friends comment on both sides of this issue here on this list.

For EMS to progress, we have to stop the internal bickering. The

firefighters will still talk under their breath about volunteers versus

" professionals. " (In my writing and speaking, I use the term " career versus

volunteer " because I feel both are " professionals " ). But, as an industry

and profession they have a unified voice (IAFC has a volunteer chief's

division). EMS, after all, is a transportation business primarily. While

medical care is important, the heart of the issue is TRANSPORTATION.

Fundamentally, 911 and non-911 providers transport patients (just as career

and volunteer firefighters fill burning buildings with water). Thus, let's

look for our common interests and not pick each other apart. Every person

in EMS is a colleague and a professional-regardless of whether they are

running dialysis centre transfers in Houston or flying for Life Flight.

That is how I see it.

BEB

E. Bledsoe, DO, FACEP

Clinical Professor of Emergency Medicine

University of Nevada School of Medicine

Department of Emergency Medicine

University Medical Center of Southern Nevada

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Joe Berry,

E-mail me off line. I want to talk to you.

Mike L.

B. mood

Marketing and Business Development Manager

AEMSTAR EMS

13003 Road Suite F-1

Stafford, Texas 77477

Office:

Cell:

Fax:

E-mail: mlindamood@...

From: texasems-l [mailto:texasems-l ] On

Behalf Of Joe B

Sent: Wednesday, December 31, 2008 11:00 AM

To: texasems-l

Subject: RE: Re: Houston

ok, since security officers are ot REAL cops, then are you saying that that

transfer medics are not real paramedics? I know a lot of transfer guys that

I trust a whole lot more some some of your so called REAL medics. You need

to retink your statement ..........

---

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On Wednesday, December 31, 2008 09:55, " STEVE BOWMAN "

said:

> Your definition of " EMS " appears to differ from that of the State of Texas.

Agreed. However, I certainly was not attempting to put forth a legal definition

of the term. I was merely stating the reality of the semantics involved. I

also was not fishing for a debate on the issue. It's like debating whether or

not gay marriage is really " marriage " . It is pointless, as neither side is

likely to convert, so there will be no consensus.

> It is NOT the same as the distinction between police and private security.

> In those cases, the training, responsibilities, authority, etc., are

drastically

> different.

Not really. If all the employees of a private security company paid their way

through some police academy, but were not employed as police officers, would

that make them police officers? Of course not. EMS is a job description. If

you aren't performing that job, then it isn't you, even if you are certified and

qualified to do it. The Cosmetology Commission regulates nail technicians.

That doesn’t make nail technicians cosmetologists.

> Your attitude appears to be another case of considering some people in the EMS

> (state definition) field to be " just ambulance drivers " - and that is

something we

> definitely don't need.

Do you know me that well, Steve, or have you recently been licensed to practise

psychology? Regardless, your characterisation of my motivation is a recklessly

incorrect assumption. I mean no disrespect to those non-EMS ambulance service

providers. And I did NOT call them “ambulance driversâ€, so I resent your

dishonest attempt to put words into my mouth. Their training is as valid as

yours and mine. They do an important job for very little reward. And, at my

age, I am not far off from requiring their services, so they certainly have my

respect. I’m just calling a spade a spade. Just because you occasionally run

across an emergency does not make you EMS. Otherwise, every bystander in the US

would be EMS too. And I believe that honesty is indeed what “we needâ€.

This “Big Tent†theory of EMS is killing us just like it killed the

Republican Party. A little dose of reality is exactly what “we needâ€.

Regards,

Rob

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On Thursday, January 1, 2009 09:51, " , Rick "

said:

> In your perfect world a person who trains to work for an

> ambulance company would have to be certified/licensed as a TMT (transfer

> medical technician) or perhaps a NEMT (non-emergency medical technician)

> rather than EMT (which stands for emergency medical technician).

I believe your plan has merit. It's a good start.

> regardless of your meaning, you sir, are stereotyping a group of colleagues

> that you claim to respect.

You seem to be confused about what this discussion is about. It isn't about

people. It isn't about training, licensure, competency, or professionalism. It

is about jobs and job descriptions. I don't care if you have a Master's degree,

twenty years in EMS, and are the smartest, hardest working, most professional

medical provider in the state, providing critical care transports. The reality

remains that, if your employer’s PRIMARY mission is not EMERGENCY RESPONSE,

then you are not in EMS. And really, any medic whose self worth is dimished by

that reality has issues. Whether I respect them or not is irrelevant if they

don’t respect themselves.

Rob

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Now we're getting to the meat of the matter. Dudley for President. Oops,

we already have one. Well then, Dudley for Philosopher King.

He nails it. The crap about EMS vs. non-EMS is just that. Crap. The

truth is that we are all prehospital medical care givers, and we should be

concentrating on the best ways to serve our patients, not whose system patch is

the

most macho. We seem to be hung up on the word " emergency. " We have never

defined that word adequately in the history of our craft. Notice I do not use

the word " profession. " We are a long way from being a profession, as this

discussion amply demonstrates.

The dictionary definition is an unforeseen condition that requires urgent or

immediate action. That can be viewed narrowly or broadly. Perhaps we are

wrong in using it at all to describe what we do and who we are. We do much

more than " emergency care. " In fact, in those services that are strictly 911,

very little of the care given is actually emergency care. So what's the

problem?

There may be functional differences in our roles at any one time, but overall

we're in the same boat. We learn a set of skills and knowledge that enable

us to care for people in a variety of different settings, just as some

physicians do family practice and some do ER work. They are all physicians,

and

they all stick together like super glue. Lawyers are the same way. It

doesn't

matter whether you're a plaintiff's lawyer or a defense lawyer, a contract

specialist, or a divorce lawyer, write wills for a living or do copyrights. In

the end you're a doctor or a lawyer, and you stick together where it counts,

that is, in matters that define you as professionals and determine how you

are treated by the rest of the world.

I have about given up on the idea that we in prehospital medicine, which is

really what we do, will ever learn to stick together and promote our common

interests. It's easier to herd tomcats on horseback than it is to get EMTs to

stick together. But it is senseless to argue about whose practice is more

important and what it ought to be called when our average rate of compensation

is

less than $15.00 an hour and we are forced to work under conditions that Joe

the Plumber would not stand for.

Let's join together as prehospital medical caregivers and forget about the

semantics in the names we give ourselves. Whether you're transporting a lady

who is post-CVA and now has a urinary tract infection from her Foley and is in

septic shock, or a guy who just took a .45 round in the chest, you're

important, and there's no difference in degree.

How about we resolve to act like medical professionals this year?

Gene Gandy, Prehospital Medical Caregiver

>

> I believe what this particular discussion is about... " emergency " vs

> " non-emergency " is much deeper and darker than any of us are willing to truly

admit.Â

> What we are talking about is that once a person reaches a certain age,

> certain disability status, or certain chronic illness capacity and especially

if

> they can no longer live on their own...THEY NO LONGER MERIT THE SERVICES OF US

> HIGHLY TRAINED, RANDY RESCUE, CRASH-BURN-DIE, LIFE-SAVING, DEATH-CHEATING

> PARAMEDICS AND EMT'S.

>

> This is all about the bias we all have that those patients in nursing homes

> and other assisted living facilities are not worthy of our services. How

> else would you explain the everyday accepted practice in almost every medium

and

> large city in the state (as long as they are served by a " non-emergency "

> provider)Â where a 70 yo female with pulmonary edema in a " NURSING HOME " is

> perfectly fine sitting in a wheelchair on 4 lpm by nasal cannula for 25 or 30

> minutes waiting on the " PRIVATE " crew to come pick her up...yet that same

patient

> sitting in her own living room would warrant 1 (if not 2) ambulances, an

> engine company and one or maybe two patrol officers. Or the elderly patient

who

> falls on her way to the dining room at the nursing center can lay on the

> floor for 75 minutes without any type of protest by the medics in the station

3

> blocks away...yet we will run emergency through multiple intersections to

> shave 30 seconds off our response to the 68 yo patient who is sitting on

their

> couch after twist

> ing their ankle in the backyard. Or my personal favorite.... ing their

> ankle in the backyard. Or my personal favorite....<wbr>those " non-emergency "

> guys are lo ing their ankle in the backyard. Or my personal

favorite....<wbr>

> those " non-emergency "

>

> Face it....this isn't about the use of lights and sirens (or if it is, we

> are much farther behind the " professional " curve than I thought) but it is

more

> about who is " deserving " of us 911'ers and who isn't....and very often, it

> has nothing to do with the medical condition of the patient and everything to

> do with where that patient lives, how they smell, or look or what type of

> medical history they have.Â

>

> This is a deep, dark secret that we don't like to talk about....but it is

> very real and exists in I would bet almost every agency in the state (and

> nation). If we are a transport profession.. This is a deep, dark secret that

we

> don't like to talk about....but it i

>

> Dudley

>

> PS: I am constantly reminded of the talent that exists in the lowly

> " non-emergency " providers... PS: I am constantly reminded of the talent that

exists

> in the lowly " non-emergency " providers...<wbr>as they usually deal with many

> more complex

>

> RE: Re: Houston

>

> On Thursday, January 1, 2009 09:51, " , Rick " <

> rick.moore@...> said:

>

> > In your perfect world a person who tra

> ins to work for an

> > ambulance company would have to be certified/licensed as a TMT (transfer

> > medical technician) or perhaps a NEMT (non-emergency medical technician)

> > rather than EMT (which stands for emergency medical technician).

>

> I believe your plan has merit. It's a good start.

>

> > regardless of your meaning, you sir, are stereotyping a group of

> colleagues

> > that you claim to respect.

>

> You seem to be confused about what this discussion is about. It isn't about

> people. It isn't about training, licensure, competency, or professionalism.

> It is about jobs and job descriptions. I don't care if you have a Master's

> degree, twenty years in EMS, and are the smartest, hardest working, most

> professional medical provider in the state, providing critical care

transports. The

> reality remains that, if your employer’s PRIMARY mission is not EMERGENCY

> RESPONSE, then you are not in EMS. And really, any medic whose self worth is

> dimished by that reality has issues. Whether I respect them or not is

irrelevant

> if they don’t respect themselves.

>

> Rob

>

>

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You know, the irony is that I routinely transport patients in my 'Transfer'

service that would curl the hair of a 911 paramedic... The bottom line is,

there is a rift that doesn't belong, and a common belief among many in

hospitals and all over the medical field, even among our own colleagues that

transport providers are worth less than the 911 paramedic... Your statement

that you " believe Rick's plan has merit. It's a good start. " is indicative

of that mindset. The fields are vastly different but both take the same

clinical skills and training, and to think that we need a separate

certification is folly. Let's stop disparaging the folks who work for an

ambulance service and not county government. EMS is EMS is EMS. We all learn

out of the same textbook in the same classrooms in the same hospitals.

Joe Percer, LP

On Thu, Jan 1, 2009 at 11:54 AM, rob.davis@... <

rob.davis@...> wrote:

> On Thursday, January 1, 2009 09:51, " , Rick " <

> rick.moore@... <rick.moore%40triadhospitals.com>> said:

>

> > In your perfect world a person who trains to work for an

> > ambulance company would have to be certified/licensed as a TMT (transfer

> > medical technician) or perhaps a NEMT (non-emergency medical technician)

> > rather than EMT (which stands for emergency medical technician).

>

> I believe your plan has merit. It's a good start.

>

> > regardless of your meaning, you sir, are stereotyping a group of

> colleagues

> > that you claim to respect.

>

> You seem to be confused about what this discussion is about. It isn't about

> people. It isn't about training, licensure, competency, or professionalism.

> It is about jobs and job descriptions. I don't care if you have a Master's

> degree, twenty years in EMS, and are the smartest, hardest working, most

> professional medical provider in the state, providing critical care

> transports. The reality remains that, if your employer's PRIMARY mission is

> not EMERGENCY RESPONSE, then you are not in EMS. And really, any medic whose

> self worth is dimished by that reality has issues. Whether I respect them or

> not is irrelevant if they don't respect themselves.

>

> Rob

>

>

>

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I believe what this particular discussion is about... " emergency " vs

" non-emergency " is much deeper and darker than any of us are willing to truly

admit. What we are talking about is that once a person reaches a certain age,

certain disability status, or certain chronic illness capacity and especially if

they can no longer live on their own...THEY NO LONGER MERIT THE SERVICES OF US

HIGHLY TRAINED, RANDY RESCUE, CRASH-BURN-DIE, LIFE-SAVING, DEATH-CHEATING

PARAMEDICS AND EMT'S.

This is all about the bias we all have that those patients in nursing homes and

other assisted living facilities are not worthy of our services. How else

would you explain the everyday accepted practice in almost every medium and

large city in the state (as long as they are served by a " non-emergency "

provider)Â where a 70 yo female with pulmonary edema in a " NURSING HOME " is

perfectly fine sitting in a wheelchair on 4 lpm by nasal cannula for 25 or 30

minutes waiting on the " PRIVATE " crew to come pick her up...yet that same

patient sitting in her own living room would warrant 1 (if not 2) ambulances,

an engine company and one or maybe two patrol officers. Or the elderly patient

who falls on her way to the dining room at the nursing center can lay on the

floor for 75 minutes without any type of protest by the medics in the station 3

blocks away...yet we will run emergency through multiple intersections to shave

30 seconds off our response to the 68 yo patient who is sitting on their couch

after twist

ing their ankle in the backyard. Or my personal favorite....those

" non-emergency " guys are losers, they can't do the job we do...oops we are out

of ambulances...call those " non-emergency " guys and have them cover those 911

calls we can't get to....

Face it....this isn't about the use of lights and sirens (or if it is, we are

much farther behind the " professional " curve than I thought) but it is more

about who is " deserving " of us 911'ers and who isn't....and very often, it has

nothing to do with the medical condition of the patient and everything to do

with where that patient lives, how they smell, or look or what type of medical

history they have.Â

This is a deep, dark secret that we don't like to talk about....but it is very

real and exists in I would bet almost every agency in the state (and nation).Â

If we are a transport profession...why is it we try to segregate ourselves based

upon the transports we do?

Dudley

PS: I am constantly reminded of the talent that exists in the lowly

" non-emergency " providers...as they usually deal with many more complex and sick

patients every day instead of the low % of the time that us " emergency " superior

folks do.Â

RE: Re: Houston

On Thursday, January 1, 2009 09:51, " , Rick "

said:

> In your perfect world a person who tra

ins to work for an

> ambulance company would have to be certified/licensed as a TMT (transfer

> medical technician) or perhaps a NEMT (non-emergency medical technician)

> rather than EMT (which stands for emergency medical technician).

I believe your plan has merit. It's a good start.

> regardless of your meaning, you sir, are stereotyping a group of colleagues

> that you claim to respect.

You seem to be confused about what this discussion is about. It isn't about

people. It isn't about training, licensure, competency, or professionalism. It

is about jobs and job descriptions. I don't care if you have a Master's degree,

twenty years in EMS, and are the smartest, hardest working, most professional

medical provider in the state, providing critical care transports. The reality

remains that, if your employer’s PRIMARY mission is not EMERGENCY RESPONSE,

then you are not in EMS. And really, any medic whose self worth is dimished by

that reality has issues. Whether I respect them or not is irrelevant if they

don’t respect themselves.

Rob

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First in defense of Rob he is the most anti running lights and sirens

person I know, so do not think his opinion is just a way to get to

drive like an idiot.

Second a point I was thinking as I read the discussions and even

sadly the rude remarks of some was while those that only do transfers

to doctors offices and dialysis are as highly educated and trained as

the rest of us is what happens with public perception.

Now my concern is the public especially in big citys sees all these

ambulances and two things happen: 1. the public gets a false sense of

security because wow with an ambulance basically on every street

corner I am safe. 2. at budget time we ask the public to support us

to put more ambulances on the street and they start wondering what

are we going to now have two on every block, I don't think so. The

public does not understand the fact that when they dial 911 the

transfer ambulance sitting down the street will not respond, but that

they have to wait on a 911 ambulance.

So my question is why not have medical vans that are not lit up and

styled like ambulances? Yes they still need medical equipment and

supplys as we all know at times patients do develope some very

serious complications following dialysis, such as electrolyte

imbalances which can even create a cardiac event. This would provide

the needed properly equiped medical transport w/o creating public

confusion. Yes the state would need a different designation for the

medical transport van. We could keep the same certification levels

but IMHO even for those of us that do not work in transfer services

there should actually be more education on things to watch for

following dialysis and other common transfer concerns.

Someone brought up how very few of the 911 calls are actual

emergencys and they are right. In fact every service should have a

policy that lights and sirens be limited to use for real emergencies

if used at all. And for that matter maybe we should start looking at

establishing guidelines to deny transport to those that do not have

real emergencys, but that is another discussion.

Just my rambling thoughts.

Renny

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On Thursday, January 1, 2009 10:19, " danielray85603 "

said:

> Just my two cents on this. I took it to be a little offensive that

> someone who works a transfer service is of less value or not worth as

> much as someone who works 911 primarily. We all got our start

> somewhere and we were all newbies at one time. I got my start working

> for a BLS transfer service and we did handle emergency calls on rare

> occasion. I learned alot about how to deal with patients and how to

> interact with people at that job. I will never regret it.

I completely agree with you. However, I never said anything about anyone being

of less value or worth. That all came from someone's fertile imagination as

they misinterpreted what I said. I went out of my way to make it clear that I

was making no statement regarding anyone's personal worth. All I did was define

job status. Again, if someone thinks that working non-EMS transfers makes them

less of a professional, or less worthy, then it is them who are devaluating

themselves, not me.

NEVER let anyone else define your personal worth. NEVER! Not me or anyone

else! YOU and you alone define your personal worth.

It should also be noted that not everyone starts out running non-EMS transfers.

In fact, most people in EMS did not start out that way. Most providers enter

EMS directly without that foundation. I'm certainly not saying that is a good

thing. It just is what it is. Most people who go to EMT or Paramedic school do

so because they want to run EMS, and that is what they go on to do.

Rob

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Do you post that in your ads that there is no difference or do you

you try and claim there is a difference? Just asking because if no

real difference what is the point? Why should I choose you over

someone else?

I understand where you are coming from. But in reality even though

EMS are certified at the same level does not mean each person equal.

For a true transfer medic job I would be able to do the job but I

would not be as profecient at it as someone that has chosen to work

in that field. But the same is true of a transfer medic all of a

sudden after years of transfer jumping in on a 911 ambulance. They

could do the job, but they would not be as smooth at it as someone

that has only done 911. Both require medical knowledge and skill but

the aproaches are different. It does not make one better than the

other. Both provide needed services. So if I dial 911 I want the

experienced 911 provider to show up. If for some reason I ever need

transfer care I want the medic that is experienced in transfer taking

care of me. Why because I want the best care for that moment.

Can a medic do both? Yes. But I would prefer a specialist rather

than a jack of all trades.

Renny

>

> The Texas Real Estate Commission licenses all real estate agents.

Not all real estate agents are REALTORS. Call a REALTOR a real

estate agent and you will immediately be corrected and receive a

glare of contempt. Now granted both REALTORS and real estate

agents are licensed to perform the very same tasks (job description)

such as writing contracts, herein lies the difference. I pay over

$1,000 a year to the National Association, the Texas Assoc and my

local board of REALTORS to differentiate myself from the others. I

also have an entirely different code of ethics and bylaws that I have

to abide by that real estate agents don't. Still, that makes me no

better than my non-REALTOR counterparts because at the end of the day

we all do the same thing; make a difference in someone's life.

>

> p.s. If you're wondering why the capitalization of " REALTOR " it is

because it is a registered trademark and spelling it any other way is

technically a violation of the aforementioned bylaws (yes, they are

that anal).

>

>

> ~Joan

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Renny,

With respect I think the LARGER point that Jpan makes is how this

" discussion " like so many we have in fourums such as the one we have

here in some ways and by some people turned into a shouting match and

such. The fact is a good verbal back and fourth on ANY professional

disagreement on any topic in any profession can be and generall ISVs

good thing but when it gets ugly it's just ugly and ugly in public

gets UGLY.

Louis N. Molino, Sr. CET

FF/NREMT/FSI/EMSI

Typed by my fingers on my iPhone. Please excuse any typo's

(Cell)

LNMolino@...

> Do you post that in your ads that there is no difference or do you

> you try and claim there is a difference? Just asking because if no

> real difference what is the point? Why should I choose you over

> someone else?

>

> I understand where you are coming from. But in reality even though

> EMS are certified at the same level does not mean each person equal.

> For a true transfer medic job I would be able to do the job but I

> would not be as profecient at it as someone that has chosen to work

> in that field. But the same is true of a transfer medic all of a

> sudden after years of transfer jumping in on a 911 ambulance. They

> could do the job, but they would not be as smooth at it as someone

> that has only done 911. Both require medical knowledge and skill but

> the aproaches are different. It does not make one better than the

> other. Both provide needed services. So if I dial 911 I want the

> experienced 911 provider to show up. If for some reason I ever need

> transfer care I want the medic that is experienced in transfer taking

> care of me. Why because I want the best care for that moment.

>

> Can a medic do both? Yes. But I would prefer a specialist rather

> than a jack of all trades.

>

> Renny

>

>

>>

>> The Texas Real Estate Commission licenses all real estate agents.

> Not all real estate agents are REALTORS. Call a REALTOR a real

> estate agent and you will immediately be corrected and receive a

> glare of contempt. Now granted both REALTORS and real estate

> agents are licensed to perform the very same tasks (job description)

> such as writing contracts, herein lies the difference. I pay over

> $1,000 a year to the National Association, the Texas Assoc and my

> local board of REALTORS to differentiate myself from the others. I

> also have an entirely different code of ethics and bylaws that I have

> to abide by that real estate agents don't. Still, that makes me no

> better than my non-REALTOR counterparts because at the end of the day

> we all do the same thing; make a difference in someone's life.

>>

>> p.s. If you're wondering why the capitalization of " REALTOR " it is

> because it is a registered trademark and spelling it any other way is

> technically a violation of the aforementioned bylaws (yes, they are

> that anal).

>>

>>

>> ~Joan

>

>

>

> ------------------------------------

>

>

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No need to post or claim anything. I have an organization of over 2

million members headquartered in D.C. and a well organized PAC to do

that for me. When I said there was no difference, I was referring to

the legal guidelines TREC says I can perform within. Trust me there

is a difference when it come to everything else, but since this is an

EMS thread I will defer clarifying said differences to the

appropriate forums.

> >

> > The Texas Real Estate Commission licenses all real estate

agents.

> Not all real estate agents are REALTORS. Call a REALTOR a real

> estate agent and you will immediately be corrected and receive a

> glare of contempt. Now granted both REALTORS and real estate

> agents are licensed to perform the very same tasks (job

description)

> such as writing contracts, herein lies the difference. I pay over

> $1,000 a year to the National Association, the Texas Assoc and my

> local board of REALTORS to differentiate myself from the others. I

> also have an entirely different code of ethics and bylaws that I

have

> to abide by that real estate agents don't. Still, that makes me no

> better than my non-REALTOR counterparts because at the end of the

day

> we all do the same thing; make a difference in someone's life.

> >

> > p.s. If you're wondering why the capitalization of " REALTOR " it

is

> because it is a registered trademark and spelling it any other

way is

> technically a violation of the aforementioned bylaws (yes, they are

> that anal).

> >

> >

> > ~Joan

>

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Please,

           Everyone ( I hope) has said their piece. It's 2009 ! Drop it, please

!

Let's find another topic------------- Thank you in advance.

> Do you post that in your ads that there is no difference or do you

> you try and claim there is a difference? Just asking because if no

> real difference what is the point? Why should I choose you over

> someone else?

>

> I understand where you are coming from. But in reality even though

> EMS are certified at the same level does not mean each person equal.

> For a true transfer medic job I would be able to do the job but I

> would not be as profecient at it as someone that has chosen to work

> in that field. But the same is true of a transfer medic all of a

> sudden after years of transfer jumping in on a 911 ambulance. They

> could do the job, but they would not be as smooth at it as someone

> that has only done 911. Both require medical knowledge and skill but

> the aproaches are different. It does not make one better than the

> other. Both provide needed services. So if I dial 911 I want the

> experienced 911 provider to show up. If for some reason I ever need

> transfer care I want the medic that is experienced in transfer taking

> care of me. Why because I want the best care for that moment.

>

> Can a medic do both? Yes. But I would prefer a specialist rather

> than a jack of all trades.

>

> Renny

>

>

>>

>> The Texas Real Estate Commission licenses all real estate agents.

> Not all real estate agents are REALTORS. Call a REALTOR a real

> estate agent and you will immediately be corrected and receive a

> glare of contempt. Now granted both REALTORS and real estate

> agents are licensed to perform the very same tasks (job description)

> such as writing contracts, herein lies the difference. I pay over

> $1,000 a year to the National Association, the Texas Assoc and my

> local board of REALTORS to differentiate myself from the others. I

> also have an entirely different code of ethics and bylaws that I have

> to abide by that real estate agents don't. Still, that makes me no

> better than my non-REALTOR counterparts because at the end of the day

> we all do the same thing; make a difference in someone's life.

>>

>> p.s. If you're wondering why the capitalization of " REALTOR " it is

> because it is a registered trademark and spelling it any other way is

> technically a violation of the aforementioned bylaws (yes, they are

> that anal).

>>

>>

>> ~Joan

>

>

>

> ------------ --------- --------- ------

>

>

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That is the point of my reply. I am familiar with the differences in

your profession. There is a difference in quality based on what a

person specializes in EMS as well. I was not trying to argue but use

your point to illustrate that. Sorry if it came out otherwise. Yes

a 911 medic can do transfer and yes a transfer medic can do 911 but

each is specialized and requires different ways of thinking and

doing. There is no shame in either job. The only shame would be

doing either job poorly as it would harm those that we are there to

take care of.

> > >

> > > The Texas Real Estate Commission licenses all real estate

> agents.

> > Not all real estate agents are REALTORS. Call a REALTOR a real

> > estate agent and you will immediately be corrected and receive a

> > glare of contempt. Now granted both REALTORS and real estate

> > agents are licensed to perform the very same tasks (job

> description)

> > such as writing contracts, herein lies the difference. I pay

over

> > $1,000 a year to the National Association, the Texas Assoc and my

> > local board of REALTORS to differentiate myself from the others.

I

> > also have an entirely different code of ethics and bylaws that I

> have

> > to abide by that real estate agents don't. Still, that makes me

no

> > better than my non-REALTOR counterparts because at the end of the

> day

> > we all do the same thing; make a difference in someone's life.

> > >

> > > p.s. If you're wondering why the capitalization of " REALTOR " it

> is

> > because it is a registered trademark and spelling it any other

> way is

> > technically a violation of the aforementioned bylaws (yes, they

are

> > that anal).

> > >

> > >

> > > ~Joan

> >

>

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Louis, Joan and others...

I may still be in the euphoria of a new year...but I do not see anything from

the discussion of the last several days that is ugly or unprofessional.? I think

multiple people were expression their view points very well as competent,

passionate adults on an EMS based Email list.?

Actually, in a discussion about political correctness back in July of 2008, Joan

made the following entry:

http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/texasems-l/message/78065

I think this really states clearly what we were doing.? We, as members of this

profession, were having a cogent and passionate debate about areas of our

profession that we will never resolve without such discussions...when someone

stepped in and tried to squash the debate by claiming it wasn't professional.?

Unfortunately, we have to have these discussions, as heated and uncomfortable as

they may be, in order to increase and further the level of professionalism we

currently enjoy.

Happy New Year everyone!

Dudley

Re: Re: Houston

Renny,

With respect I think the LARGER point that Jpan makes is how this

" discussion " like so many we have in fourums such as the one we have

here in some ways and by some people turned into a shouting match and

such. The fact is a good verbal back and fourth on ANY professional

disagreement on any topic in any profession can be and generall ISVs

good thing but when it gets ugly it's just ugly and ugly in public

gets UGLY.

Louis N. Molino, Sr. CET

FF/NREMT/FSI/EMSI

Typed by my fingers on my iPhone. Please excuse any typo's

(Cell)

LNMolino@...

> Do you post that in your ads that there is no difference or do you

> you try and claim there is a difference? Just asking because if no

> real difference what is the point? Why should I choose you over

> someone else?

>

> I understand where you are coming from. But in reality even though

> EMS are certified at the same level does not mean each person equal.

> For a true transfer medic job I would be able to do the job but I

> would not be as profecient at it as someone that has chosen to work

> in that field. But the same is true of a transfer medic all of a

> sudden after years of transfer jumping in on a 911 ambulance. They

> could do the job, but they would not be as smooth at it as someone

> that has only done 911. Both require medical knowledge and skill but

> the aproaches are different. It does not make one better than the

> other. Both provide needed services. So if I dial 911 I want the

> experienced 911 provider to show up. If for some reason I ever need

> transfer care I want the medic that is experienced in transfer taking

> care of me. Why because I want the best care for that moment.

>

> Can a medic do both? Yes. But I would prefer a specialist rather

> than a jack of all trades.

>

> Renny

>

>

>>

>> The Texas Real Estate Commission licenses all real estate agents.

> Not all real estate agents are REALTORS. Call a REALTOR a real

> estate agent and you will immediately be corrected and receive a

> glare of contempt. Now granted both REALTORS and real estate

> agents are licensed to perform the very same tasks (job description)

> such as writing contracts, herein lies the difference. I pay over

> $1,000 a year to the National Association, the Texas Assoc and my

> local board of REALTORS to differentiate myself from the others. I

> also have an entirely different code of ethics and bylaws that I have

> to abide by that real estate agents don't. Still, that makes me no

> better than my non-REALTOR counterparts because at the end of the day

> we all do the same thing; make a difference in someone's life.

>>

>> p.s. If you're wondering why the capitalization of " REALTOR " it is

> because it is a registered trademark and spelling it any other way is

> technically a violation of the aforementioned bylaws (yes, they are

> that anal).

>>

>>

>> ~Joan

>

>

>

> ------------------------------------

>

>

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This topic only reinforces the the fact that our profession is not

united. There are 911 services that only do 911, there are services

that do 911 and transfers, and there are private services that do

transfers and mutual aid and/or primary 911 services.

What should we do about the services that do both?

-Nate

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There are many services that do both and do both well. Why should we have to do

anything with them? After all as long as they are performing great patient care

and take care of the patient the way the patient needs to be taken care of then

leave them alone and let them be. Remember it is about the patients not about

the different types of EMTs, Intermediates, or Paramedics. Some of the best

Paramedics I have ever known or worked with have been with transfer services

their entire career. What's the difference between an ambulance taking a

transfer or running an emergency call when helicopter services do it all the

time. We don't question their skill level when we call them to a scene even

though the last 2 or 3 patients they transported may have very well been

hospital to hospital.

Subject: Re: Houston

To: texasems-l

Date: Saturday, January 3, 2009, 8:21 PM

This topic only reinforces the the fact that our profession is not

united. There are 911 services that only do 911, there are services

that do 911 and transfers, and there are private services that do

transfers and mutual aid and/or primary 911 services.

What should we do about the services that do both?

-Nate

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Thanks for going back thru archives to dig up my then-one and only

post and applying it to something that has vitually nothing to do

with political correctness....futile at best.

Call it what you want, but what I was referring to was the PERCEPTION

of professionalism, Dudley, that the taxpayers that fund your service

and other government-based ones will have as a result of reading

this. By all means continue your " debates " ; I'll continue reading

and laughing. Remember, reality itself doesn't bite...only the

perception of it.

~Joan

> >>

> >> The Texas Real Estate Commission licenses all real estate agents.

> > Not all real estate agents are REALTORS. Call a REALTOR a real

> > estate agent and you will immediately be corrected and receive a

> > glare of contempt. Now granted both REALTORS and real estate

> > agents are licensed to perform the very same tasks (job

description)

> > such as writing contracts, herein lies the difference. I pay over

> > $1,000 a year to the National Association, the Texas Assoc and my

> > local board of REALTORS to differentiate myself from the others. I

> > also have an entirely different code of ethics and bylaws that I

have

> > to abide by that real estate agents don't. Still, that makes me no

> > better than my non-REALTOR counterparts because at the end of the

day

> > we all do the same thing; make a difference in someone's life.

> >>

> >> p.s. If you're wondering why the capitalization of " REALTOR " it

is

> > because it is a registered trademark and spelling it any other

way is

> > technically a violation of the aforementioned bylaws (yes, they

are

> > that anal).

> >>

> >>

> >> ~Joan

> >

> >

> >

> > ------------------------------------

> >

> >

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In a message dated 1/1/2009 2:51:13 P.M. Central Standard Time,

rick.moore@... writes:

Bottom line: the training is the same, the proficiency exams are the

same and the patch on the shoulder are the same whether the medic's

dispatcher answered the phone " 911 what is your emergency " or " thank you

for calling ABC EMS, how may we help you " .

I totally disagree with Rob (not sure that I know who he is) but the above

statement definitely does not hold true. This is a poor argument. Ask any of

the medics that came to our service with a paramedic patch, if they are the

same medic after NETP school with us. NETP stands for New Employee Training

Program. It is a two week course and totally changes the outlook and

training of paramedics. Also, no two Paramedic schools are equal in their

teachings

as the other. While I wish that the statement were true, it isn't.

Rob does need to gain respect for all medics and try and realize that

thinking like his, sets us back 25 years.

Andy

**************New year...new news. Be the first to know what is making

headlines. (http://www.aol.com/?ncid=emlcntaolcom00000026)

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