Guest guest Posted May 7, 2007 Report Share Posted May 7, 2007 In a message dated 5/7/2007 10:55:19 A.M. Pacific Daylight Time, Grayson902@... writes: God: " Shut up, both of you. You're apples and oranges. There is no easy comparison between you. Now knock it off right now, before I decide that bananas need to inherit the Earth. " In this analogy bananas are Firefighters. Louis N. Molino, Sr., CET FF/NREMT-B/FSI/EMSI Freelance Consultant/Trainer/Author/Journalist/Fire Protection Consultant LNMolino@... (Cell Phone) (IFW/TFW/FSS Office) (IFW/TFW/FSS Fax) " A Texan with a Jersey Attitude " " Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people " Eleanor Roosevelt - US diplomat & reformer (1884 - 1962) The comments contained in this E-mail are the opinions of the author and the author alone. I in no way ever intend to speak for any person or organization that I am in any way whatsoever involved or associated with unless I specifically state that I am doing so. Further this E-mail is intended only for its stated recipient and may contain private and or confidential materials retransmission is strictly prohibited unless placed in the public domain by the original author. ************************************** See what's free at http://www.aol.com. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 7, 2007 Report Share Posted May 7, 2007 In a message dated 5/7/2007 10:54:34 A.M. Pacific Daylight Time, ExLngHrn@... writes: To me, the no-brain answer should be medical professional. Not " just like the so-and-sos. " EMS needs to figure out what the hell it is instead of turning green with envy over nursing salaries. -Wes Ah but you know as well as I do that we can find lots of folks that are decent Medics that would argue Public Safety. Hence the argument itself. Louis N. Molino, Sr., CET FF/NREMT-B/FSI/EMSI Freelance Consultant/Trainer/Author/Journalist/Fire Protection Consultant LNMolino@... (Cell Phone) (IFW/TFW/FSS Office) (IFW/TFW/FSS Fax) " A Texan with a Jersey Attitude " " Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people " Eleanor Roosevelt - US diplomat & reformer (1884 - 1962) The comments contained in this E-mail are the opinions of the author and the author alone. I in no way ever intend to speak for any person or organization that I am in any way whatsoever involved or associated with unless I specifically state that I am doing so. Further this E-mail is intended only for its stated recipient and may contain private and or confidential materials retransmission is strictly prohibited unless placed in the public domain by the original author. ************************************** See what's free at http://www.aol.com. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 7, 2007 Report Share Posted May 7, 2007 In a message dated 5/7/2007 11:31:49 A.M. Pacific Daylight Time, hatfield@... writes: Sigh…it wasn’t enough to stir the RN vs Medic, you just HAD to bring the FF’s into it too!!!!! tis my lot in life! Louis N. Molino, Sr., CET FF/NREMT-B/FSI/EMSI Freelance Consultant/Trainer/Author/Journalist/Fire Protection Consultant LNMolino@... (Cell Phone) (IFW/TFW/FSS Office) (IFW/TFW/FSS Fax) " A Texan with a Jersey Attitude " " Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people " Eleanor Roosevelt - US diplomat & reformer (1884 - 1962) The comments contained in this E-mail are the opinions of the author and the author alone. I in no way ever intend to speak for any person or organization that I am in any way whatsoever involved or associated with unless I specifically state that I am doing so. Further this E-mail is intended only for its stated recipient and may contain private and or confidential materials retransmission is strictly prohibited unless placed in the public domain by the original author. ************************************** See what's free at http://www.aol.com. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 7, 2007 Report Share Posted May 7, 2007 In a message dated 5/7/2007 11:06:52 A.M. Pacific Daylight Time, txguy001@... writes: An LVN compared to an RN is like an EMT compared to a paramedic. I'm semi insulted by that given how the RN's I know treat the LVN's I know. I know a lot of both BTW in many states and that's a dynamic that seems to be static. Louis N. Molino, Sr., CET FF/NREMT-B/FSI/EMSI Freelance Consultant/Trainer/Author/Journalist/Fire Protection Consultant LNMolino@... (Cell Phone) (IFW/TFW/FSS Office) (IFW/TFW/FSS Fax) " A Texan with a Jersey Attitude " " Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people " Eleanor Roosevelt - US diplomat & reformer (1884 - 1962) The comments contained in this E-mail are the opinions of the author and the author alone. I in no way ever intend to speak for any person or organization that I am in any way whatsoever involved or associated with unless I specifically state that I am doing so. Further this E-mail is intended only for its stated recipient and may contain private and or confidential materials retransmission is strictly prohibited unless placed in the public domain by the original author. ************************************** See what's free at http://www.aol.com. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 7, 2007 Report Share Posted May 7, 2007 In a message dated 5/7/2007 11:06:45 A.M. Pacific Daylight Time, ExLngHrn@... writes: Can we not accept that we're both? Wes, YOU do listen when we chat! Louis N. Molino, Sr., CET FF/NREMT-B/FSI/EMSI Freelance Consultant/Trainer/Author/Journalist/Fire Protection Consultant LNMolino@... (Cell Phone) (IFW/TFW/FSS Office) (IFW/TFW/FSS Fax) " A Texan with a Jersey Attitude " " Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people " Eleanor Roosevelt - US diplomat & reformer (1884 - 1962) The comments contained in this E-mail are the opinions of the author and the author alone. I in no way ever intend to speak for any person or organization that I am in any way whatsoever involved or associated with unless I specifically state that I am doing so. Further this E-mail is intended only for its stated recipient and may contain private and or confidential materials retransmission is strictly prohibited unless placed in the public domain by the original author. ************************************** See what's free at http://www.aol.com. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 7, 2007 Report Share Posted May 7, 2007 In a message dated 5/7/2007 11:49:56 A.M. Pacific Daylight Time, ExLngHrn@... writes: On a more practical note, why hasn't EMS attempted to work with the nursing home industry to better prepare them to deal with emergencies, activation of the 911 system, and pre-arrival emergency care? On the whole I'd agree but also state that like everything else if one looks one will find systems that have done this very well. BTW it's 9-1-1, a 911 is a car and 9/11 is a day we better never forget! Pet peeve of mine Louis N. Molino, Sr., CET FF/NREMT-B/FSI/EMSI Freelance Consultant/Trainer/Author/Journalist/Fire Protection Consultant LNMolino@... (Cell Phone) (IFW/TFW/FSS Office) (IFW/TFW/FSS Fax) " A Texan with a Jersey Attitude " " Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people " Eleanor Roosevelt - US diplomat & reformer (1884 - 1962) The comments contained in this E-mail are the opinions of the author and the author alone. I in no way ever intend to speak for any person or organization that I am in any way whatsoever involved or associated with unless I specifically state that I am doing so. Further this E-mail is intended only for its stated recipient and may contain private and or confidential materials retransmission is strictly prohibited unless placed in the public domain by the original author. ************************************** See what's free at http://www.aol.com. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 7, 2007 Report Share Posted May 7, 2007 In a message dated 07-May-07 13:52:37 Central Daylight Time, airmedic51@... writes: True, but basics are basics and common sense is common sense. LVNs should know how to apply BASIC CARE--- Especially O2 without doctor's orders if the patient needs it ! But, alas, maybe that's wishful thinking. part of the problem here is that many facilities interpret the various nursing practice acts to mean 'anything not specifically permitted is forbidden'... for example...a decade or so ago, I had a number of LPNs who wanted to take ACLS. They were willing to spend the time to learn the rhythms etc, but the then Admin types were horrified...'LPNs can't push emergency medications!'...I had to get a letter from the State Board of Nursing confirming that, while a 'plain' RN cannot delegate an LPN to push medications, that a physician can legally direct an LPN to do so. This was later amended to allow MSN Nurse Practs to supervise LPNs doing IV push meds as well. I'm suspecting that there's something in the facility SOPs that prohibit independent actions such as starting emergency oxygen without a practitioner's order, despite the clear legal guidelines from the FDA permitting that. Bean counters, no doubt... ck S. Krin, DO FAAFP ************************************** See what's free at http://www.aol.com. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 7, 2007 Report Share Posted May 7, 2007 In a message dated 5/7/2007 12:11:42 P.M. Pacific Daylight Time, ExLngHrn@... writes: Maybe this is a time and place for the EMS medical director to make a collegial suggestion to his associate, the nursing home medical director? WES WES WES you are assuming that the NH MD types are actually hands on which in SOME EMS Systems is a stretch let alone the NH business, remember it took the feds 10 years or so of raiding NH types before they started raiding EMS types for things like fraud. Louis N. Molino, Sr., CET FF/NREMT-B/FSI/EMSI Freelance Consultant/Trainer/Author/Journalist/Fire Protection Consultant LNMolino@... (Cell Phone) (IFW/TFW/FSS Office) (IFW/TFW/FSS Fax) " A Texan with a Jersey Attitude " " Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people " Eleanor Roosevelt - US diplomat & reformer (1884 - 1962) The comments contained in this E-mail are the opinions of the author and the author alone. I in no way ever intend to speak for any person or organization that I am in any way whatsoever involved or associated with unless I specifically state that I am doing so. Further this E-mail is intended only for its stated recipient and may contain private and or confidential materials retransmission is strictly prohibited unless placed in the public domain by the original author. ************************************** See what's free at http://www.aol.com. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 7, 2007 Report Share Posted May 7, 2007 Does anybody remember being told if you were in this for the money, you were in the wrong profession?? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 7, 2007 Report Share Posted May 7, 2007 That should win the Pulitzer Prize for fruit reporting. GG > > Apple: " I'm better. " > > Orange: " No, I'm better! " > > Apple: " Yeah, but I'm a pome. I'm an essential ingredient in the All > American Dessert. " > > Orange: " So? I'm a citrus fruit, plus I'm juicy and segmented. " > > Apple: " You're also a navel orange, and thus biologically irrelevant. " > > Orange: " I belong to a long and extremely diverse list of fruits - > tangerines, nectarines, grapefruits, satsumas - I could go on, but we are so much more > diverse than you! " > > Apple: " Not diverse? NOT DIVERSE??? Granny , MacIntosh, Golden > Delicious... Apple: " Not diverse? NOT DIVERSE??? Granny , MacIntosh, Golden > Delicious...<wbr>want me to keep going? Besides, God doesn't have to tell us to > grow. We grow naturally, from seeds scattered haphazardly about the country by > ny Appleseed. You only grow in carefully tended orchards in extremely > temperate climates like Flo > > Orange: " And apples don't grow in orchards? Puh-leeze! Besides, since we > require so much more time and effort to ripen, we're obviously the superior > fruit. You, on the other hand, went through a much shorter ripening process. > There's no telling if you're even edible when you get plucked from the tree. " > > Apple: " Oh yeah? We'll you're acidic and upset people's stomachs! You're so > bitter, that your juice makes a good cleaning fluid! " > > Orange: " You take that back! " > > Apple: " Not until you admit that some apple orchards are just as good as > orange orchards, and produce fruit just as tasty! " > > Orange: " You're nothing more than a fancied up Bartlett Pear, and any citrus > fruit could do your job better! " > > Apple: " I am an important fruit and the namesake of one of the world's most > successful computer companies, and I DEMAND THAT YOU GIVE ME THE RESPECT I > DESERVE AS AN INTEGRAL PART OF THE FRUIT FAMILY! " > > God: " Shut up, both of you. You're apples and oranges. There is no easy > comparison between you. Now knock it off right now, before I decide that bananas > need to inherit the Earth. " > > > Re: Re: Paramedic Vs Nurse > > Recent Activity > 3New Members > Visit Your Group > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 7, 2007 Report Share Posted May 7, 2007 Best I ever heard someone tackle this Paramedic/RN thing. If we are going to increase our status as a profession, it must come form within.... ________________________________ From: texasems-l [texasems-l ] On Behalf Of ExLngHrn@... [ExLngHrn@...] Sent: Monday, May 07, 2007 12:36 PM To: texasems-l Subject: Re: Paramedic Vs Nurse Why do we insist on comparing ourselves with nursing? Granted, some of the skills are the same, but we are in two very different fields with very different mindsets, environments, and paradigms. Just because I also put gas in the ambulance doesn't mean I should compare myself with a service station attendant. We need to concentrate on developing our own identity, not merely piggybacking on some other field. -Wes Ogilvie Paramedic Vs Nurse Does anybody remember being told if you were in this for the money, you were in the wrong profession?? __________________________________________________________ AOL now offers free email to everyone. Find out more about what's free from AOL at AOL.com. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 7, 2007 Report Share Posted May 7, 2007 Apple: " I'm better. " Orange: " No, I'm better! " Apple: " Yeah, but I'm a pome. I'm an essential ingredient in the All American Dessert. " Orange: " So? I'm a citrus fruit, plus I'm juicy and segmented. " Apple: " You're also a navel orange, and thus biologically irrelevant. " Orange: " I belong to a long and extremely diverse list of fruits - tangerines, nectarines, grapefruits, satsumas - I could go on, but we are so much more diverse than you! " Apple: " Not diverse? NOT DIVERSE??? Granny , MacIntosh, Golden Delicious...want me to keep going? Besides, God doesn't have to tell us to grow. We grow naturally, from seeds scattered haphazardly about the country by ny Appleseed. You only grow in carefully tended orchards in extremely temperate climates like Florida and southern California. One good freeze and you're dead. So neener neener neener. Orange: " And apples don't grow in orchards? Puh-leeze! Besides, since we require so much more time and effort to ripen, we're obviously the superior fruit. You, on the other hand, went through a much shorter ripening process. There's no telling if you're even edible when you get plucked from the tree. " Apple: " Oh yeah? We'll you're acidic and upset people's stomachs! You're so bitter, that your juice makes a good cleaning fluid! " Orange: " You take that back! " Apple: " Not until you admit that some apple orchards are just as good as orange orchards, and produce fruit just as tasty! " Orange: " You're nothing more than a fancied up Bartlett Pear, and any citrus fruit could do your job better! " Apple: " I am an important fruit and the namesake of one of the world's most successful computer companies, and I DEMAND THAT YOU GIVE ME THE RESPECT I DESERVE AS AN INTEGRAL PART OF THE FRUIT FAMILY! " God: " Shut up, both of you. You're apples and oranges. There is no easy comparison between you. Now knock it off right now, before I decide that bananas need to inherit the Earth. " Re: Re: Paramedic Vs Nurse Recent Activity 3New Members Visit Your Group Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 7, 2007 Report Share Posted May 7, 2007 Thanks folks, I'll be here all week. Try the veal. -Wes " Channeling Jackie Mason " Ogilvie Deputy Assistant Chief Cynic Fellow, American Academy of Crumudgeons Diplomate, American Society of EMS Wise-@$$es Paramedic Vs Nurse Does anybody remember being told if you were in this for the money, you were in the wrong profession?? __________________________________________________________ AOL now offers free email to everyone. Find out more about what's free from AOL at AOL.com. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 7, 2007 Report Share Posted May 7, 2007 Mr. Grayson, the office just called. Your " random " urine and breath test happened to come up today. -Wes Re: Re: Paramedic Vs Nurse Recent Activity 3New Members Visit Your Group Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 7, 2007 Report Share Posted May 7, 2007 I have taught plenty of LVNs ACLS, and they can give meds at many places under doctor's orders. The " official " RN position is probably that they shouldn't, but I have known many places where the LVN's were the backbone of the ER, and the " young " RNs were suitably deferential. In lots of the small hospitals I have taken patients to, the LVNs and the RNs performed equally. Most of those LVNs learned their emergency skills on the job. When I was at Tyler Junior College, I used to do a whole day with the LVN class on patient assessment and emergency care. They loved it, and the LVN teaching staff were thrilled to have them get that training. GG > > > In a message dated 07-May-07 13:52:37 Central Daylight Time, > airmedic51@sbcglobaairme writes: > > True, but basics are basics and common sense is common sense. > LVNs should know how to apply BASIC CARE--- Especially O2 without doctor's > orders if the patient needs it ! But, alas, maybe that's wishful thinking. > > part of the problem here is that many facilities interpret the various > nursing practice acts to mean 'anything not specifically permitted is > forbidden'.. > > for example...a decade or so ago, I had a number of LPNs who wanted to take > ACLS. They were willing to spend the time to learn the rhythms etc, but the > then Admin types were horrified... then Admin types were horrified...<wb > then > had to get a letter from the State Board of Nursing confirming that, while a > 'plain' RN cannot delegate an LPN to push medications, that a physician can > legally direct an LPN to do so. This was later amended to allow MSN Nurse > Practs to supervise LPNs doing IV push meds as well. > > I'm suspecting that there's something in the facility SOPs that prohibit > independent actions such as starting emergency oxygen without a > practitioner' in > order, despite the clear legal guidelines from the FDA permitting that. Bean > counters, no doubt... > > ck > S. Krin, DO FAAFP > > ************ ******** ******** ************<wbr>*********http://www.aol.http > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 7, 2007 Report Share Posted May 7, 2007 Believe it or not, most nurses in nursing homes are LVNs. An LVN compared to an RN is like an EMT compared to a paramedic. Most nursing homes only have a few RN's, which most are in mangement positions and are not involved in direct pt care. Re: Paramedic Vs Nurse I agree with SOME of the comments of this post. I believe that we (Paramedics) should alway strive for higher education and professionalism which will one day lead to higher pay and respect. But, My views of the hospital setting is a little different. I have worked in the ICU of our local hospital for almost 8 years, and have worked closely with RN's, MD's, and other levels of the healthcare team. I understand how the hospital chain of command works. I have the greatest respect for nurses that I have worked with. And my comments are in no way to belittle or ridicule the job they perform. But, they (Nurses) are used to working in a CONTROLLED environment. Even with the S*** is hitting the fan, whether it is during a code or some other type of Sentinel event. There is control. There is a Dr. who gives every order, even to the Liters of O2 applied. A nurse can not give ASA unless it is okayed by the physician whether it is by Verbal/Telephone Orders and in some ER's there are Standing orders. But most floor nurses do not have that privledge. They have to call for each order, each medication, etc. Now, lets address the resources. Such as Respiratory Therapist, Code Teams, Charge Nurse/Nursing Supervisors, EKG Technicians, Phelobotomists, even down to Nursing Assistants that can help with retrieving supplies. I have been a part of countless Code Blue Situations and there is always at least 10 people that respond NOT TO INCLUDE the Doctor. Sure the Nurse may be delivering the Drugs and at times Defibrillating but it is directly under the Dr that has responded to the Code Blue Situation. Each group of individuals are respondsible for their own area of expertise. For the most part, these critical situations flow together, the outcome may not alway be positive, but the process is usually seamless. For years, I believed that the two professions were similar. And after working both sides of the fence I have realized that there are more differences than most people realize. On the Ambulance there are only Medics. And depending on the area you serve, there may only be two crews that would respond to a major medical incident, such as Cardiac Arrest. This equals 4 medics. We have to " assess " and " diagnose " as a Doctor, Treat and Medicate as a Nurse, We provide O2, breathing treatments, and Intubate as RT's, We obtain EKG's as the Tech. We are kind, and provide blood draws as the Phlebotomist. And we have less people, resources and most importantly the ever changing and at times uncontrolled environments in which we have to remain calm and work. There is not always the perfect light or the perfect working surface such as a pt wedged in between the toilet and a wall or the car the is overturned in a ditch. Yes my examples are a bit extreme, but we have all been there. Please do not take what I am saying in a negative way. The hospital staff are wonderful, and I am in NO WAY saying that Paramedics are Super Heroes, or that we are BETTER, but the situations are not the same. I feel like it is comparing Apples to Oranges. They are both fruit. Just like our ultimate goal is the same, which is to provide the highest level of patient care, whether it is prehospital or not. I know wonderful Nurses that would not make a shift in an ambulance. Just like there are Wonderful Paramedics that would not make a shift having to deal the attitudes of cranky patients and cranky Dr's for a constant 12 hour shift. We are what we are. But we are not the same. Enjoy the differences. April F. McElroy NREMT-P City of Clute EMS > Is it possible that one of the reasons that paramedic pay is so low > (comparably to nurses, for example) is because that so many medics volunteer > their > time? If the demand goes up, so does the pay in other industries. > > EMT-B > > ************ ********* ********* ******** See what's free at > http://www.aol. com. > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 7, 2007 Report Share Posted May 7, 2007 Sigh it wasn’t enough to stir the RN vs Medic, you just HAD to bring the FF’s into it too!!!!! Hatfield FF/EMT-P HYPERLINK " http://www.canyonlakefire-ems.org/ " www.canyonlakefire-ems.org Re: Re: Paramedic Vs Nurse In a message dated 5/7/2007 10:55:19 A.M. Pacific Daylight Time, HYPERLINK " mailto:Grayson902%40aol.com " Grayson902 (AT) aol (DOT) -com writes: God: " Shut up, both of you. You're apples and oranges. There is no easy comparison between you. Now knock it off right now, before I decide that bananas need to inherit the Earth. " In this analogy bananas are Firefighters. Louis N. Molino, Sr., CET FF/NREMT-B/FSI/-EMSI Freelance Consultant/Trainer/-Author/Journalis-t/Fire Protection Consultant HYPERLINK " mailto:LNMolino%40aol.com " LNMolino (AT) aol (DOT) -com (Cell Phone) (IFW/TFW/FSS Office) (IFW/TFW/FSS Fax) " A Texan with a Jersey Attitude " " Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people " Eleanor Roosevelt - US diplomat & reformer (1884 - 1962) The comments contained in this E-mail are the opinions of the author and the author alone. I in no way ever intend to speak for any person or organization that I am in any way whatsoever involved or associated with unless I specifically state that I am doing so. Further this E-mail is intended only for its stated recipient and may contain private and or confidential materials retransmission is strictly prohibited unless placed in the public domain by the original author. ************-*********-*********-******** See what's free at HYPERLINK " http://www.aol.com. " http://www.aol.-com. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 7, 2007 Report Share Posted May 7, 2007 And remember, there are even darned few LVNs. You're dealing mostly with CNAs, medication aides, and a variety of other minimally trained personnel when you show up at a nursing home. And the reason they may not have done certain interventions is a lack of training and/or standing orders for their particular level of practice. On a more practical note, why hasn't EMS attempted to work with the nursing home industry to better prepare them to deal with emergencies, activation of the 911 system, and pre-arrival emergency care? -Wes Ogilvie Re: Paramedic Vs Nurse I agree with SOME of the comments of this post. I believe that we (Paramedics) should alway strive for higher education and professionalism which will one day lead to higher pay and respect. But, My views of the hospital setting is a little different. I have worked in the ICU of our local hospital for almost 8 years, and have worked closely with RN's, MD's, and other levels of the healthcare team. I understand how the hospital chain of command works. I have the greatest respect for nurses that I have worked with. And my comments are in no way to belittle or ridicule the job they perform. But, they (Nurses) are used to working in a CONTROLLED environment. Even with the S*** is hitting the fan, whether it is during a code or some other type of Sentinel event. There is control. There is a Dr. who gives every order, even to the Liters of O2 applied. A nurse can not give ASA unless it is okayed by the physician whether it is by Verbal/Telephone Orders and in some ER's there are Standing orders. But most floor nurses do not have that privledge. They have to call for each order, each medication, etc. Now, lets address the resources. Such as Respiratory Therapist, Code Teams, Charge Nurse/Nursing Supervisors, EKG Technicians, Phelobotomists, even down to Nursing Assistants that can help with retrieving supplies. I have been a part of countless Code Blue Situations and there is always at least 10 people that respond NOT TO INCLUDE the Doctor. Sure the Nurse may be delivering the Drugs and at times Defibrillating but it is directly under the Dr that has responded to the Code Blue Situation. Each group of individuals are respondsible for their own area of expertise. For the most part, these critical situations flow together, the outcome may not alway be positive, but the process is usually seamless. For years, I believed that the two professions were similar. And after working both sides of the fence I have realized that there are more differences than most people realize. On the Ambulance there are only Medics. And depending on the area you serve, there may only be two crews that would respond to a major medical incident, such as Cardiac Arrest. This equals 4 medics. We have to " assess " and " diagnose " as a Doctor, Treat and Medicate as a Nurse, We provide O2, breathing treatments, and Intubate as RT's, We obtain EKG's as the Tech. We are kind, and provide blood draws as the Phlebotomist. And we have less people, resources and most importantly the ever changing and at times uncontrolled environments in which we have to remain calm and work. There is not always the perfect light or the perfect working surface such as a pt wedged in between the toilet and a wall or the car the is overturned in a ditch. Yes my examples are a bit extreme, but we have all been there. Please do not take what I am saying in a negative way. The hospital staff are wonderful, and I am in NO WAY saying that Paramedics are Super Heroes, or that we are BETTER, but the situations are not the same. I feel like it is comparing Apples to Oranges. They are both fruit. Just like our ultimate goal is the same, which is to provide the highest level of patient care, whether it is prehospital or not. I know wonderful Nurses that would not make a shift in an ambulance. Just like there are Wonderful Paramedics that would not make a shift having to deal the attitudes of cranky patients and cranky Dr's for a constant 12 hour shift. We are what we are. But we are not the same. Enjoy the differences. April F. McElroy NREMT-P City of Clute EMS > Is it possible that one of the reasons that paramedic pay is so low > (comparably to nurses, for example) is because that so many medics volunteer > their > time? If the demand goes up, so does the pay in other industries. > > EMT-B > > ************ ********* ********* ******** See what's free at > http://www.aol. com. > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 7, 2007 Report Share Posted May 7, 2007 True, but basics are basics and common sense is common sense. LVNs should know how to apply BASIC CARE--- Especially O2 without doctor's orders if the patient needs it ! But, alas, maybe that's wishful thinking. txguy001@... wrote: Believe it or not, most nurses in nursing homes are LVNs. An LVN compared to an RN is like an EMT compared to a paramedic. Most nursing homes only have a few RN's, which most are in mangement positions and are not involved in direct pt care. Re: Paramedic Vs Nurse I agree with SOME of the comments of this post. I believe that we (Paramedics) should alway strive for higher education and professionalism which will one day lead to higher pay and respect. But, My views of the hospital setting is a little different. I have worked in the ICU of our local hospital for almost 8 years, and have worked closely with RN's, MD's, and other levels of the healthcare team. I understand how the hospital chain of command works. I have the greatest respect for nurses that I have worked with. And my comments are in no way to belittle or ridicule the job they perform. But, they (Nurses) are used to working in a CONTROLLED environment. Even with the S*** is hitting the fan, whether it is during a code or some other type of Sentinel event. There is control. There is a Dr. who gives every order, even to the Liters of O2 applied. A nurse can not give ASA unless it is okayed by the physician whether it is by Verbal/Telephone Orders and in some ER's there are Standing orders. But most floor nurses do not have that privledge. They have to call for each order, each medication, etc. Now, lets address the resources. Such as Respiratory Therapist, Code Teams, Charge Nurse/Nursing Supervisors, EKG Technicians, Phelobotomists, even down to Nursing Assistants that can help with retrieving supplies. I have been a part of countless Code Blue Situations and there is always at least 10 people that respond NOT TO INCLUDE the Doctor. Sure the Nurse may be delivering the Drugs and at times Defibrillating but it is directly under the Dr that has responded to the Code Blue Situation. Each group of individuals are respondsible for their own area of expertise. For the most part, these critical situations flow together, the outcome may not alway be positive, but the process is usually seamless. For years, I believed that the two professions were similar. And after working both sides of the fence I have realized that there are more differences than most people realize. On the Ambulance there are only Medics. And depending on the area you serve, there may only be two crews that would respond to a major medical incident, such as Cardiac Arrest. This equals 4 medics. We have to " assess " and " diagnose " as a Doctor, Treat and Medicate as a Nurse, We provide O2, breathing treatments, and Intubate as RT's, We obtain EKG's as the Tech. We are kind, and provide blood draws as the Phlebotomist. And we have less people, resources and most importantly the ever changing and at times uncontrolled environments in which we have to remain calm and work. There is not always the perfect light or the perfect working surface such as a pt wedged in between the toilet and a wall or the car the is overturned in a ditch. Yes my examples are a bit extreme, but we have all been there. Please do not take what I am saying in a negative way. The hospital staff are wonderful, and I am in NO WAY saying that Paramedics are Super Heroes, or that we are BETTER, but the situations are not the same. I feel like it is comparing Apples to Oranges. They are both fruit. Just like our ultimate goal is the same, which is to provide the highest level of patient care, whether it is prehospital or not. I know wonderful Nurses that would not make a shift in an ambulance. Just like there are Wonderful Paramedics that would not make a shift having to deal the attitudes of cranky patients and cranky Dr's for a constant 12 hour shift. We are what we are. But we are not the same. Enjoy the differences. April F. McElroy NREMT-P City of Clute EMS > Is it possible that one of the reasons that paramedic pay is so low > (comparably to nurses, for example) is because that so many medics volunteer > their > time? If the demand goes up, so does the pay in other industries. > > EMT-B > > ************ ********* ********* ******** See what's free at > http://www.aol. com. > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 7, 2007 Report Share Posted May 7, 2007 I know many times that we have as medics, but are ignored for all kinds of reasons. ExLngHrn@... wrote: And remember, there are even darned few LVNs. You're dealing mostly with CNAs, medication aides, and a variety of other minimally trained personnel when you show up at a nursing home. And the reason they may not have done certain interventions is a lack of training and/or standing orders for their particular level of practice. On a more practical note, why hasn't EMS attempted to work with the nursing home industry to better prepare them to deal with emergencies, activation of the 911 system, and pre-arrival emergency care? -Wes Ogilvie Re: Paramedic Vs Nurse I agree with SOME of the comments of this post. I believe that we (Paramedics) should alway strive for higher education and professionalism which will one day lead to higher pay and respect. But, My views of the hospital setting is a little different. I have worked in the ICU of our local hospital for almost 8 years, and have worked closely with RN's, MD's, and other levels of the healthcare team. I understand how the hospital chain of command works. I have the greatest respect for nurses that I have worked with. And my comments are in no way to belittle or ridicule the job they perform. But, they (Nurses) are used to working in a CONTROLLED environment. Even with the S*** is hitting the fan, whether it is during a code or some other type of Sentinel event. There is control. There is a Dr. who gives every order, even to the Liters of O2 applied. A nurse can not give ASA unless it is okayed by the physician whether it is by Verbal/Telephone Orders and in some ER's there are Standing orders. But most floor nurses do not have that privledge. They have to call for each order, each medication, etc. Now, lets address the resources. Such as Respiratory Therapist, Code Teams, Charge Nurse/Nursing Supervisors, EKG Technicians, Phelobotomists, even down to Nursing Assistants that can help with retrieving supplies. I have been a part of countless Code Blue Situations and there is always at least 10 people that respond NOT TO INCLUDE the Doctor. Sure the Nurse may be delivering the Drugs and at times Defibrillating but it is directly under the Dr that has responded to the Code Blue Situation. Each group of individuals are respondsible for their own area of expertise. For the most part, these critical situations flow together, the outcome may not alway be positive, but the process is usually seamless. For years, I believed that the two professions were similar. And after working both sides of the fence I have realized that there are more differences than most people realize. On the Ambulance there are only Medics. And depending on the area you serve, there may only be two crews that would respond to a major medical incident, such as Cardiac Arrest. This equals 4 medics. We have to " assess " and " diagnose " as a Doctor, Treat and Medicate as a Nurse, We provide O2, breathing treatments, and Intubate as RT's, We obtain EKG's as the Tech. We are kind, and provide blood draws as the Phlebotomist. And we have less people, resources and most importantly the ever changing and at times uncontrolled environments in which we have to remain calm and work. There is not always the perfect light or the perfect working surface such as a pt wedged in between the toilet and a wall or the car the is overturned in a ditch. Yes my examples are a bit extreme, but we have all been there. Please do not take what I am saying in a negative way. The hospital staff are wonderful, and I am in NO WAY saying that Paramedics are Super Heroes, or that we are BETTER, but the situations are not the same. I feel like it is comparing Apples to Oranges. They are both fruit. Just like our ultimate goal is the same, which is to provide the highest level of patient care, whether it is prehospital or not. I know wonderful Nurses that would not make a shift in an ambulance. Just like there are Wonderful Paramedics that would not make a shift having to deal the attitudes of cranky patients and cranky Dr's for a constant 12 hour shift. We are what we are. But we are not the same. Enjoy the differences. April F. McElroy NREMT-P City of Clute EMS > Is it possible that one of the reasons that paramedic pay is so low > (comparably to nurses, for example) is because that so many medics volunteer > their > time? If the demand goes up, so does the pay in other industries. > > EMT-B > > ************ ********* ********* ******** See what's free at > http://www.aol. com. > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 7, 2007 Report Share Posted May 7, 2007 Maybe this is a time and place for the EMS medical director to make a collegial suggestion to his associate, the nursing home medical director? Docs, are y'all listening? -Wes Re: Paramedic Vs Nurse I agree with SOME of the comments of this post. I believe that we (Paramedics) should alway strive for higher education and professionalism which will one day lead to higher pay and respect. But, My views of the hospital setting is a little different. I have worked in the ICU of our local hospital for almost 8 years, and have worked closely with RN's, MD's, and other levels of the healthcare team. I understand how the hospital chain of command works. I have the greatest respect for nurses that I have worked with. And my comments are in no way to belittle or ridicule the job they perform. But, they (Nurses) are used to working in a CONTROLLED environment. Even with the S*** is hitting the fan, whether it is during a code or some other type of Sentinel event. There is control. There is a Dr. who gives every order, even to the Liters of O2 applied. A nurse can not give ASA unless it is okayed by the physician whether it is by Verbal/Telephone Orders and in some ER's there are Standing orders. But most floor nurses do not have that privledge. They have to call for each order, each medication, etc. Now, lets address the resources. Such as Respiratory Therapist, Code Teams, Charge Nurse/Nursing Supervisors, EKG Technicians, Phelobotomists, even down to Nursing Assistants that can help with retrieving supplies. I have been a part of countless Code Blue Situations and there is always at least 10 people that respond NOT TO INCLUDE the Doctor. Sure the Nurse may be delivering the Drugs and at times Defibrillating but it is directly under the Dr that has responded to the Code Blue Situation. Each group of individuals are respondsible for their own area of expertise. For the most part, these critical situations flow together, the outcome may not alway be positive, but the process is usually seamless. For years, I believed that the two professions were similar. And after working both sides of the fence I have realized that there are more differences than most people realize. On the Ambulance there are only Medics. And depending on the area you serve, there may only be two crews that would respond to a major medical incident, such as Cardiac Arrest. This equals 4 medics. We have to " assess " and " diagnose " as a Doctor, Treat and Medicate as a Nurse, We provide O2, breathing treatments, and Intubate as RT's, We obtain EKG's as the Tech. We are kind, and provide blood draws as the Phlebotomist. And we have less people, resources and most importantly the ever changing and at times uncontrolled environments in which we have to remain calm and work. There is not always the perfect light or the perfect working surface such as a pt wedged in between the toilet and a wall or the car the is overturned in a ditch. Yes my examples are a bit extreme, but we have all been there. Please do not take what I am saying in a negative way. The hospital staff are wonderful, and I am in NO WAY saying that Paramedics are Super Heroes, or that we are BETTER, but the situations are not the same. I feel like it is comparing Apples to Oranges. They are both fruit. Just like our ultimate goal is the same, which is to provide the highest level of patient care, whether it is prehospital or not. I know wonderful Nurses that would not make a shift in an ambulance. Just like there are Wonderful Paramedics that would not make a shift having to deal the attitudes of cranky patients and cranky Dr's for a constant 12 hour shift. We are what we are. But we are not the same. Enjoy the differences. April F. McElroy NREMT-P City of Clute EMS > Is it possible that one of the reasons that paramedic pay is so low > (comparably to nurses, for example) is because that so many medics volunteer > their > time? If the demand goes up, so does the pay in other industries. > > EMT-B > > ************ ********* ********* ******** See what's free at > http://www.aol. com. > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 7, 2007 Report Share Posted May 7, 2007 Sometimes that is the case. Sometimes, the new ‘certification’ levels are added in an effort to save money. Take a lower level of cert, add ‘specialized training’, and give them a new title, pay a little more, but not as much as the next higher level and viola!!!! The smaller services I work (and worked) for worked extensively with the local NH’s in an effort to get things done to the patient prior to our arrival, we also work with them to help them distinguish what types of calls constitute the need for 911 vs. contacting their agreed provider. The turnover in these facilities are pretty high, as soon as you get a system worked out, poof!!! They are all gone, and you are back to square one. Their standing orders are written by a physician who may or may not have any concept of acute care, many if not most are general practitioners. The protocols in use at many facilities are simply plagiarized from another facility. They meet the minimum standards required. The physician is usually called by the RN/LVN/CAN on duty, and is asked to make a diagnosis over the phone at 3 in the morning. The usual diagnosis? Transport. Relieves them of responsibility in the event someone misses something in the diagnosis that allows him to NOT transport, followed by the patient immediately going ‘south’. In so much as Nurses vs Paramedics? Dangerous ground to tread, we work in different environments, I know many many excellent nurses, and as we speak am falling in love with one of them. ’s analogy is best, it’s apples to oranges. They do what they do, and I do what I do. I have been called upon to perform skills in the ER, and did so with humility and left after saying “Thanks for letting me play in your sandbox!!” I will pit my skill against many of them, and will sit quietly and watch and learn in the presence of others. No different than I do in the field. They train extensively in some areas, as we do in other areas. There is no correlation between us with the exception of needing to be organized, that’s where they moved forward, and that’s where we need to catch up. We need to work harder at watching and learning how they organized in my opinion. We need to follow them in those footsteps, not reinvent the wheel. Just my ramblings Mike Re: Paramedic Vs Nurse I agree with SOME of the comments of this post. I believe that we (Paramedics) should alway strive for higher education and professionalism which will one day lead to higher pay and respect. But, My views of the hospital setting is a little different. I have worked in the ICU of our local hospital for almost 8 years, and have worked closely with RN's, MD's, and other levels of the healthcare team. I understand how the hospital chain of command works. I have the greatest respect for nurses that I have worked with. And my comments are in no way to belittle or ridicule the job they perform. But, they (Nurses) are used to working in a CONTROLLED environment. Even with the S*** is hitting the fan, whether it is during a code or some other type of Sentinel event. There is control. There is a Dr. who gives every order, even to the Liters of O2 applied. A nurse can not give ASA unless it is okayed by the physician whether it is by Verbal/Telephone Orders and in some ER's there are Standing orders. But most floor nurses do not have that privledge. They have to call for each order, each medication, etc. Now, lets address the resources. Such as Respiratory Therapist, Code Teams, Charge Nurse/Nursing Supervisors, EKG Technicians, Phelobotomists, even down to Nursing Assistants that can help with retrieving supplies. I have been a part of countless Code Blue Situations and there is always at least 10 people that respond NOT TO INCLUDE the Doctor. Sure the Nurse may be delivering the Drugs and at times Defibrillating but it is directly under the Dr that has responded to the Code Blue Situation. Each group of individuals are respondsible for their own area of expertise. For the most part, these critical situations flow together, the outcome may not alway be positive, but the process is usually seamless. For years, I believed that the two professions were similar. And after working both sides of the fence I have realized that there are more differences than most people realize. On the Ambulance there are only Medics. And depending on the area you serve, there may only be two crews that would respond to a major medical incident, such as Cardiac Arrest. This equals 4 medics. We have to " assess " and " diagnose " as a Doctor, Treat and Medicate as a Nurse, We provide O2, breathing treatments, and Intubate as RT's, We obtain EKG's as the Tech. We are kind, and provide blood draws as the Phlebotomist. And we have less people, resources and most importantly the ever changing and at times uncontrolled environments in which we have to remain calm and work. There is not always the perfect light or the perfect working surface such as a pt wedged in between the toilet and a wall or the car the is overturned in a ditch. Yes my examples are a bit extreme, but we have all been there. Please do not take what I am saying in a negative way. The hospital staff are wonderful, and I am in NO WAY saying that Paramedics are Super Heroes, or that we are BETTER, but the situations are not the same. I feel like it is comparing Apples to Oranges. They are both fruit. Just like our ultimate goal is the same, which is to provide the highest level of patient care, whether it is prehospital or not. I know wonderful Nurses that would not make a shift in an ambulance. Just like there are Wonderful Paramedics that would not make a shift having to deal the attitudes of cranky patients and cranky Dr's for a constant 12 hour shift. We are what we are. But we are not the same. Enjoy the differences. April F. McElroy NREMT-P City of Clute EMS > Is it possible that one of the reasons that paramedic pay is so low > (comparably to nurses, for example) is because that so many medics volunteer > their > time? If the demand goes up, so does the pay in other industries. > > EMT-B > > ************ ********* ********* ******** See what's free at > HYPERLINK " http://www.aol. " http://www.aol. com. > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 7, 2007 Report Share Posted May 7, 2007 Is it just me or do some of the scope of practice debates for various health care practitioners remind me of arcane medieval guild rules? -Wes Re: Re: Paramedic Vs Nurse In a message dated 07-May-07 13:52:37 Central Daylight Time, airmedic51@... writes: True, but basics are basics and common sense is common sense. LVNs should know how to apply BASIC CARE--- Especially O2 without doctor's orders if the patient needs it ! But, alas, maybe that's wishful thinking. part of the problem here is that many facilities interpret the various nursing practice acts to mean 'anything not specifically permitted is forbidden'... for example...a decade or so ago, I had a number of LPNs who wanted to take ACLS. They were willing to spend the time to learn the rhythms etc, but the then Admin types were horrified...'LPNs can't push emergency medications!'...I had to get a letter from the State Board of Nursing confirming that, while a 'plain' RN cannot delegate an LPN to push medications, that a physician can legally direct an LPN to do so. This was later amended to allow MSN Nurse Practs to supervise LPNs doing IV push meds as well. I'm suspecting that there's something in the facility SOPs that prohibit independent actions such as starting emergency oxygen without a practitioner's order, despite the clear legal guidelines from the FDA permitting that. Bean counters, no doubt... ck S. Krin, DO FAAFP ************************************** See what's free at http://www.aol.com. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 7, 2007 Report Share Posted May 7, 2007 I beg to differ Wes. Everytime I have walked into a nursing home I have dealt with RNs and LVNs. It's a damn shame they get paid more than we do. They have no idea what they are doing in the nursing home. The only ones who have somewhat of a clue are the CNAs. The reason they have not done alot of interventions is that they can't get their head out of their ass. It seems once they stepped into the nursing home setting they forgot all their training and shooling. Are you serious, paramedics training nurses for emergencies? They need to be decertified or sent packing back to their country of origin. What would happen to us if we forgot and needed retraining in emergencies? Better luck teaching monkeys. I am sure nurses are just itching to get trained by paramedics. Sal Capuchino EMT-Paramedic Re: Paramedic Vs Nurse I agree with SOME of the comments of this post. I believe that we (Paramedics) should alway strive for higher education and professionalism which will one day lead to higher pay and respect. But, My views of the hospital setting is a little different. I have worked in the ICU of our local hospital for almost 8 years, and have worked closely with RN's, MD's, and other levels of the healthcare team. I understand how the hospital chain of command works. I have the greatest respect for nurses that I have worked with. And my comments are in no way to belittle or ridicule the job they perform. But, they (Nurses) are used to working in a CONTROLLED environment. Even with the S*** is hitting the fan, whether it is during a code or some other type of Sentinel event. There is control. There is a Dr. who gives every order, even to the Liters of O2 applied. A nurse can not give ASA unless it is okayed by the physician whether it is by Verbal/Telephone Orders and in some ER's there are Standing orders. But most floor nurses do not have that privledge. They have to call for each order, each medication, etc. Now, lets address the resources. Such as Respiratory Therapist, Code Teams, Charge Nurse/Nursing Supervisors, EKG Technicians, Phelobotomists, even down to Nursing Assistants that can help with retrieving supplies. I have been a part of countless Code Blue Situations and there is always at least 10 people that respond NOT TO INCLUDE the Doctor. Sure the Nurse may be delivering the Drugs and at times Defibrillating but it is directly under the Dr that has responded to the Code Blue Situation. Each group of individuals are respondsible for their own area of expertise. For the most part, these critical situations flow together, the outcome may not alway be positive, but the process is usually seamless. For years, I believed that the two professions were similar. And after working both sides of the fence I have realized that there are more differences than most people realize. On the Ambulance there are only Medics. And depending on the area you serve, there may only be two crews that would respond to a major medical incident, such as Cardiac Arrest. This equals 4 medics. We have to " assess " and " diagnose " as a Doctor, Treat and Medicate as a Nurse, We provide O2, breathing treatments, and Intubate as RT's, We obtain EKG's as the Tech. We are kind, and provide blood draws as the Phlebotomist. And we have less people, resources and most importantly the ever changing and at times uncontrolled environments in which we have to remain calm and work. There is not always the perfect light or the perfect working surface such as a pt wedged in between the toilet and a wall or the car the is overturned in a ditch. Yes my examples are a bit extreme, but we have all been there. Please do not take what I am saying in a negative way. The hospital staff are wonderful, and I am in NO WAY saying that Paramedics are Super Heroes, or that we are BETTER, but the situations are not the same. I feel like it is comparing Apples to Oranges. They are both fruit. Just like our ultimate goal is the same, which is to provide the highest level of patient care, whether it is prehospital or not. I know wonderful Nurses that would not make a shift in an ambulance. Just like there are Wonderful Paramedics that would not make a shift having to deal the attitudes of cranky patients and cranky Dr's for a constant 12 hour shift. We are what we are. But we are not the same. Enjoy the differences. April F. McElroy NREMT-P City of Clute EMS > Is it possible that one of the reasons that paramedic pay is so low > (comparably to nurses, for example) is because that so many medics volunteer > their > time? If the demand goes up, so does the pay in other industries. > > EMT-B > > ************ ********* ********* ******** See what's free at > http://www.aol. com. > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 7, 2007 Report Share Posted May 7, 2007 I'm suspecting that there's something in the facility SOPs that prohibit independent actions such as starting emergency oxygen without a practitioner's order, despite the clear legal guidelines from the FDA permitting that. Bean counters, no doubt... I do not think any physician in his right mind would prohibit basic care, after all aren't RNS, LVNs better educated or trained than we are? I am sure they are taught in nsg school about emergencies. I am sorry if I sound negative, but I have encountered way too many nurses that did not provide any care even for a full arrest without a DNR. I guess they need a Doc to tell them to start CPR too. Sal Capuchino EMT-Paramedic Re: Re: Paramedic Vs Nurse In a message dated 07-May-07 13:52:37 Central Daylight Time, airmedic51@... writes: True, but basics are basics and common sense is common sense. LVNs should know how to apply BASIC CARE--- Especially O2 without doctor's orders if the patient needs it ! But, alas, maybe that's wishful thinking. part of the problem here is that many facilities interpret the various nursing practice acts to mean 'anything not specifically permitted is forbidden'... for example...a decade or so ago, I had a number of LPNs who wanted to take ACLS. They were willing to spend the time to learn the rhythms etc, but the then Admin types were horrified...'LPNs can't push emergency medications!'...I had to get a letter from the State Board of Nursing confirming that, while a 'plain' RN cannot delegate an LPN to push medications, that a physician can legally direct an LPN to do so. This was later amended to allow MSN Nurse Practs to supervise LPNs doing IV push meds as well. I'm suspecting that there's something in the facility SOPs that prohibit independent actions such as starting emergency oxygen without a practitioner's order, despite the clear legal guidelines from the FDA permitting that. Bean counters, no doubt... ck S. Krin, DO FAAFP ************************************** See what's free at http://www.aol.com. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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