Guest guest Posted February 1, 2007 Report Share Posted February 1, 2007 Hi I am having a hard time understanding the differtent T4 ranges. I believe for those without thyroid disease their levels should be between .3 and 3.0 per the chart posted on this group. And I have Hashi's, so my values should be 0 to .1 (currently T4 is 3.9, so they have just increased my dosage to 150 mcg Eltroxin from 100 daily) What about those with Graves? As my Mom had Rai 30 years ago, and she is wondering. Thanks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 1, 2007 Report Share Posted February 1, 2007 ... I think you mean to ask about TSH... I remember your TSH as being 3.9... Or am I remembering wrong? With Grave's and RAI... it's also important to keep TSH levels low... But not for quite the same reason, or more accurately, you don't do it the same way... TSH is the Thyroid Stimulating Hormone. With Hashi's the antibodies are stimulated by thyroid gland activity. The higher the TSH level the more stimulation to the thyroid gland to increase production... It's the stimulated/active thyroid gland that causes the antibodies to kick up their attack. In the cash of both Hashi's and Grave's the body has goofed and has suddenly decided that the thyroid gland is a foreign body and must be destroy to protect the body. Hashi's antibodies destroy gland tissues, Grave's antibodies cause the thyroid gland to over produce. Both involve antibodies, but the two differing types have a different affect on the gland. It's also possible, that considering how long ago your mom was treated, that she may not have had Grave's but the hyper stage of Hashi's.. that might be confirmed with an antibody test. Even today there are docs that are not familiar with Hashi's having a hyper stage and will misdiagnose it has Grave's. How are you doing with the new dosage? Have you felt any difference yet, or is your body not as swift to react (often folks don't feel much of a change at first when on a T4 only med like Eltroxin, so don't worry if you don't feel anything yet, it takes time for most of us to adjust to a change in dosage) It takes a while until all the different hormones are straight in your head, so don't worry about mixing stuff up, we all keep an eye out for each other to not transpose them or mix them up.... Topper () On Thu, 01 Feb 2007 17:52:45 -0000 " makjhorton " makjhorton@...> writes: > Hi > > I am having a hard time understanding the differtent T4 ranges. > > I believe for those without thyroid disease their levels should be > between .3 and 3.0 per the chart posted on this group. > > And I have Hashi's, so my values should be 0 to .1 > (currently T4 is 3.9, so they have just increased my dosage to 150 > mcg Eltroxin from 100 daily) > > What about those with Graves? As my Mom had Rai 30 years ago, and > she is wondering. > > Thanks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 1, 2007 Report Share Posted February 1, 2007 > > Hi > > I am having a hard time understanding the differtent T4 ranges. > > I believe for those without thyroid disease their levels should be > between .3 and 3.0 per the chart posted on this group. > > And I have Hashi's, so my values should be 0 to .1 > (currently T4 is 3.9, so they have just increased my dosage to 150 mcg > Eltroxin from 100 daily) > > What about those with Graves? As my Mom had Rai 30 years ago, and she > is wondering. > > Thanks. > The range you are using looks more like a TSH range and TSH question..then a T4 question..( if my TSH was 3.9 I would expect increase, if my T4 was above range and I was given an increase I would run and find a new doc) TSH is a thyroid stimulating hormone, it is not a thyroid hormone but works on a feed back loop system..it is good for first look at the thyroid but beyond that IMO it is useless as to many other factors including autoimmune diseases can falsly effect the TSH. As a general rule TSH tells you what your body feels it needs, more or less thyroid hormone..so TSH should be lower in the range and at the same time T4 is a thyroid hormone and everyone's set points are different but it should be in the upper 2/3's end of the range. For your mom it really depends if she has Grave's antibodys.. Hyper = low TSH , higher than range T4 and /or T3.. The antibody for Grave's can suppress the TSH and a lot of treated Grave's patients find they have close to zero on TSH but the Ft4 and Ft3 are also low as the antobody binds to TSH receptor sites on the Thyroid. ( another reason TSH is useless) . The goal of treatment whether hyper or hypo is to get the T4 into the upper 2/3 end of the range, hyper does it by lowering the T4, hypo does it by raising the T4. ( this is basic, does not include T3 or fine tuning or set points or thyroid resistance etc) Kats3boys Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 1, 2007 Report Share Posted February 1, 2007 In the cash of both Hashi's and Grave's the body has goofed and has > suddenly decided that the thyroid gland is a foreign body and must be > destroy to protect the body. Hashi's antibodies destroy gland tissues, > Grave's antibodies cause the thyroid gland to over produce. Both involve > antibodies, but the two differing types have a different affect on the > gland. ( sorry Topper) Antibodies in Hashi's cause thyroid cell destruction. The antibodies in Grave's do not destroy the thyroid. Grave's antibodies are called TRAB..or TSH Receptor Antibodies which can be broken down further to TSI ( stimulating) and TBII( blocking) they fill the TSH receptor sites and stimulate the thyroid to produce more hormone. This is why in primary hypo you always see a raised TSH ( >2) and why in treated hyper you see supressed TSH ( <0.1) even though the patient maybe hypo. This is the reason you being hyper with a TSH above 2 was never diagnosed, Grave's only accounts for 70 % of all hyper patients yet 99% of all diagnosis is based on the assumption of Grave's antibodies binding to TSH receptor sites. This is also why with PROPER treatment those with Grave's can and do go into remission, meaning no meds not hyper or hypo and those with Hashi's although they can slow down the cell destruction and minimize swings almost always end up going more hypo and eventually end up with little or no thyroid function. Kats3boys Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 1, 2007 Report Share Posted February 1, 2007 Much better explanation that mine, thanks, Kats3 I didn't/don't have Grave's.. the cause of my hyper was defective TSH receptors... In my case, caught before the gland goes to an extreme (without the TSH receptors working properly the bland doesn't know if it's got correct output, needs to increase or decrease) it can be regulated by using replacement hormone to get the body back up to function and wait for the gland to increase, if it chooses to, or you can use anti-thyroid drugs to block hormone until the gland decides to slow. If the gland happens to reset itself to the proper production levels it still needs constant supervision to correct it again if it creeps. From what I've read the 'creep' is slow, and doesn't roller coaster like with Hashi's... or build rapidly like Grave's. The three in my family with this defect all happened to creep to hyper. It happened mine wasn't caught until my gland had escalated to storm... The other two were caught much sooner, one treated with a partial thyroidectomy the other treated with anti-thyroid meds, they are both doing much much better than I.... But don't know if it was due to their not going into storm and getting RAI and the damage that results from that, or that they still have partially functioning glands. But thanks for the clarification on the Graves!!! Topper () On Thu, 01 Feb 2007 19:06:45 -0000 " kats3boys " kats3boys@...> writes: > ( sorry Topper) > Antibodies in Hashi's cause thyroid cell destruction. > The antibodies in Grave's do not destroy the thyroid. Grave's > antibodies are called TRAB..or TSH Receptor Antibodies which can be > broken down further to TSI ( stimulating) and TBII( blocking) they > fill > the TSH receptor sites and stimulate the thyroid to produce more > hormone. > > This is why in primary hypo you always see a raised TSH ( >2) and > why > in treated hyper you see supressed TSH ( <0.1) even though the > patient maybe hypo. > > This is the reason you being hyper with a TSH above 2 was never > diagnosed, Grave's only accounts for 70 % of all hyper patients yet > 99% > of all diagnosis is based on the assumption of Grave's antibodies > binding to TSH receptor sites. > > This is also why with PROPER treatment those with Grave's can and do > go > into remission, meaning no meds not hyper or hypo and those with > Hashi's although they can slow down the cell destruction and > minimize > swings almost always end up going more hypo and eventually end up > with little or no thyroid function. > > Kats3boys Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 1, 2007 Report Share Posted February 1, 2007 You have given the ranges for the TSH (Thyroid Stimulating Hormone), made by the pituitary to stimulate a NORMAL thyroid, in the healthy cycle of things (which we no longer have). The T4 is the main thyroid hormone, converted to the useable forms for use in the body, as in T3, T2, T1, so on. Each body system uses differing amts of all these thyroid hormones and SHOULD convert it to what it needs, but doesn't always do it, that's for sure. Confused > Hi > > I am having a hard time understanding the differtent T4 ranges. > > I believe for those without thyroid disease their levels should be > between .3 and 3.0 per the chart posted on this group. > > And I have Hashi's, so my values should be 0 to .1 > (currently T4 is 3.9, so they have just increased my dosage to 150 mcg > Eltroxin from 100 daily) > > What about those with Graves? As my Mom had Rai 30 years ago, and she > is wondering. > > Thanks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 1, 2007 Report Share Posted February 1, 2007 This is where i get confused too. My antibodies are very high, meaning my body is attacking the thyroid, right? So, wouldn't upping my Armour make the thyroid more active and the antibodies want to fight harder?jackieTSH is the Thyroid Stimulating Hormone. With Hashi's the antibodies arestimulated by thyroid gland activity. The higher the TSH level the morestimulation to the thyroid gland to increase production... It's thestimulated/active thyroid gland that causes the antibodies to kick uptheir attack... Topper () Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 1, 2007 Report Share Posted February 1, 2007 Thyroid hormone does not "go to the thyroid", it takes the place of what your own thyroid will no longer be able to make. You are not "feeding" your thyroid. What you do when you take the hormone from outside of the body is that the thyroid becomes a "silent bystander", that is, if you take enough thyroid hormone to silence it and therefore keep it from making it's OWN hormone, possibly keeping the antibodies from attacking it. The oral thyroid hormones you are taking are accomplishing the tasks of going here and there into the cells of your whole body in order for you to sustain life and to feel well, that is, if you are taking enough, but not way too much. It does not make the thyroid work, which is part of what you want to accomplish in autoimmune thyroid disease. These are the basic principles of replacing or taking thyroid hormones. Re: Confused This is where i get confused too. My antibodies are very high, meaning my body is attacking the thyroid, right? So, wouldn't upping my Armour make the thyroid more active and the antibodies want to fight harder? jackie TSH is the Thyroid Stimulating Hormone. With Hashi's the antibodies arestimulated by thyroid gland activity. The higher the TSH level the morestimulation to the thyroid gland to increase production... It's thestimulated/active thyroid gland that causes the antibodies to kick uptheir attack... Topper () Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 1, 2007 Report Share Posted February 1, 2007 Further note----Compare this to taking insulin for Diabetes, when the Pancreas will never again make it's own insulin to cover the blood sugar that you've made in your blood stream. The Pancreas is not being rejuvenated again, rather, it is being bypassed and something outside of the body is taking it's place. Re: Confused This is where i get confused too. My antibodies are very high, meaning my body is attacking the thyroid, right? So, wouldn't upping my Armour make the thyroid more active and the antibodies want to fight harder? jackie Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 1, 2007 Report Share Posted February 1, 2007 Armour takes over instead of your thyroid. Your gland goes to sleep since the armour does the work. THE antibodies don't see the sleeping gland and die. ~E:) --- Ken & Jackie Reimer quest4us@...> wrote: > > This is where i get confused too. My antibodies > are very high, > > meaning my body is attacking the thyroid, right? > So, wouldn't > > upping my Armour make the thyroid more active and > the antibodies > > want to fight harder? > > jackie > > > > > > > > > TSH is the Thyroid Stimulating Hormone. With > Hashi's the antibodies > > are > > stimulated by thyroid gland activity. The higher > the TSH level the > > more > > stimulation to the thyroid gland to increase > production... It's the > > stimulated/active thyroid gland that causes the > antibodies to kick up > > their attack... > > > > Topper () > > > > > > > Day after day, day after day, We stuck, nor breath nor motion; As idle as a painted ship Upon a painted ocean. Water, water, everywhere, And all the boards did shrink; Water, water, everywhere, Nor any drop to drink. ~The Ancient Mariner ________________________________________________________________________________\ ____ Any questions? Get answers on any topic at www.Answers.yahoo.com. Try it now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 2, 2007 Report Share Posted February 2, 2007 Increasing your Armour increases your hormone levels Increasing your hormone levels decreases your body's need for hormone. That decreases TSH That decreases the activity of the thyroid gland ..... and that decreases the activity of the antibodies.... So the goal is to provide enough replacement hormone to allow the TSH to go down to near zero so that the thyroid gland goes to sleep. Topper () On Thu, 1 Feb 2007 17:55:20 -0800 Ken & Jackie Reimer writes: This is where i get confused too. My antibodies are very high, meaning my body is attacking the thyroid, right? So, wouldn't upping my Armour make the thyroid more active and the antibodies want to fight harder? jackie Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 2, 2007 Report Share Posted February 2, 2007 The way an endo described it me was that when you add the hormone, your thyroid works LESS and LESS to produce what your body need and lower your TSH to suppress your thyroid activity. SUe This is where i get confused too. My antibodies are very high, meaning my body is attacking the thyroid, right? So, wouldn't upping my Armour make the thyroid more active and the antibodies want to fight harder? jackie TSH is the Thyroid Stimulating Hormone. With Hashi's the antibodies are stimulated by thyroid gland activity. The higher the TSH level the more stimulation to the thyroid gland to increase production... It's the stimulated/active thyroid gland that causes the antibodies to kick up their attack... Topper () Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 2, 2007 Report Share Posted February 2, 2007 Hi Thanks for these deifinitions. It is very helpful to see the differences between our diseases. mom is going to ask for the antibody test to be done, and we will let you know the results. And yes you are right, that I was asking incorreclty due to confusion. Someday I'll get it together I hope, I hate trying to opperate thru this fog... Take care, and many thnaks, > > ... I think you mean to ask about TSH... I remember your TSH as > being 3.9... Or am I remembering wrong? > > With Grave's and RAI... it's also important to keep TSH levels low... > But not for quite the same reason, or more accurately, you don't do it > the same way... > > TSH is the Thyroid Stimulating Hormone. With Hashi's the antibodies are > stimulated by thyroid gland activity. The higher the TSH level the more > stimulation to the thyroid gland to increase production... It's the > stimulated/active thyroid gland that causes the antibodies to kick up > their attack. > > In the cash of both Hashi's and Grave's the body has goofed and has > suddenly decided that the thyroid gland is a foreign body and must be > destroy to protect the body. Hashi's antibodies destroy gland tissues, > Grave's antibodies cause the thyroid gland to over produce. Both involve > antibodies, but the two differing types have a different affect on the > gland. > > It's also possible, that considering how long ago your mom was treated, > that she may not have had Grave's but the hyper stage of Hashi's.. that > might be confirmed with an antibody test. Even today there are docs that > are not familiar with Hashi's having a hyper stage and will misdiagnose > it has Grave's. > > How are you doing with the new dosage? Have you felt any difference yet, > or is your body not as swift to react (often folks don't feel much of a > change at first when on a T4 only med like Eltroxin, so don't worry if > you don't feel anything yet, it takes time for most of us to adjust to a > change in dosage) > > It takes a while until all the different hormones are straight in your > head, so don't worry about mixing stuff up, we all keep an eye out for > each other to not transpose them or mix them up.... > > Topper () > > On Thu, 01 Feb 2007 17:52:45 -0000 " makjhorton " > writes: > > Hi > > > > I am having a hard time understanding the differtent T4 ranges. > > > > I believe for those without thyroid disease their levels should be > > between .3 and 3.0 per the chart posted on this group. > > > > And I have Hashi's, so my values should be 0 to .1 > > (currently T4 is 3.9, so they have just increased my dosage to 150 > > mcg Eltroxin from 100 daily) > > > > What about those with Graves? As my Mom had Rai 30 years ago, and > > she is wondering. > > > > Thanks. > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 2, 2007 Report Share Posted February 2, 2007 Many Thanks to Kat3 & Topper for this info. Mom & I are reviewing it. Will keep you posted. Cheers, > > Much better explanation that mine, thanks, Kats3 > > I didn't/don't have Grave's.. the cause of my hyper was defective TSH > receptors... In my case, caught before the gland goes to an extreme > (without the TSH receptors working properly the bland doesn't know if > it's got correct output, needs to increase or decrease) it can be > regulated by using replacement hormone to get the body back up to > function and wait for the gland to increase, if it chooses to, or you can > use anti-thyroid drugs to block hormone until the gland decides to slow. > If the gland happens to reset itself to the proper production levels it > still needs constant supervision to correct it again if it creeps. > > From what I've read the 'creep' is slow, and doesn't roller coaster like > with Hashi's... or build rapidly like Grave's. The three in my family > with this defect all happened to creep to hyper. It happened mine wasn't > caught until my gland had escalated to storm... The other two were > caught much sooner, one treated with a partial thyroidectomy the other > treated with anti-thyroid meds, they are both doing much much better than > I.... But don't know if it was due to their not going into storm and > getting RAI and the damage that results from that, or that they still > have partially functioning glands. > > But thanks for the clarification on the Graves!!! > > Topper () > > On Thu, 01 Feb 2007 19:06:45 -0000 " kats3boys " > writes: > > ( sorry Topper) > > Antibodies in Hashi's cause thyroid cell destruction. > > The antibodies in Grave's do not destroy the thyroid. Grave's > > antibodies are called TRAB..or TSH Receptor Antibodies which can be > > broken down further to TSI ( stimulating) and TBII( blocking) they > > fill > > the TSH receptor sites and stimulate the thyroid to produce more > > hormone. > > > > This is why in primary hypo you always see a raised TSH ( >2) and > > why > > in treated hyper you see supressed TSH ( <0.1) even though the > > patient maybe hypo. > > > > This is the reason you being hyper with a TSH above 2 was never > > diagnosed, Grave's only accounts for 70 % of all hyper patients yet > > 99% > > of all diagnosis is based on the assumption of Grave's antibodies > > binding to TSH receptor sites. > > > > This is also why with PROPER treatment those with Grave's can and do > > go > > into remission, meaning no meds not hyper or hypo and those with > > Hashi's although they can slow down the cell destruction and > > minimize > > swings almost always end up going more hypo and eventually end up > > with little or no thyroid function. > > > > Kats3boys > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 2, 2007 Report Share Posted February 2, 2007 > > > This is where i get confused too. My antibodies are very high, > > meaning my body is attacking the thyroid, right? So, wouldn't > > upping my Armour make the thyroid more active and the antibodies > > want to fight harder? > > jackie > > By upping your Armour or adding in T4, your body will be getting enough thyroid hormone from an outside source..the body is not smart enough to know if it is coming from the thyroid or from an outside source..it thinks it is getting enough thyroid hormone and it sends a signal to the pituary gland to put the brakes on the TSH .. remember TSH is a thyroid stimulating hormone.. your TSH is high when your thyroid levels are low..raise the thyroid levels..lower the TSH..lower the activity of the thyroid.. the body , mainly the liver converts T4 to T3 and all the cells in the body use T3.. the thyroid produces the hormones. Consider it going to a gas station to fill up.. the thyroid is the gas pump and the gas is your thyroid hormone..the fuel gauge and idiot light that tells you you need more fuel is the TSH... If your tank is full you do not need to fill up.. the gas pump sits not being used.. if the idiot light is on, the gas pump gets lots of work.. Kats3boys Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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