Guest guest Posted April 2, 2007 Report Share Posted April 2, 2007 Many of you may remember at one of the GETAC meetings last year, someone brought up the criminal history background checks, and the fact that this could turn into a witch hunt by DSHS. Meaning that if Q. Public was arrested 20 yrs ago for a hot check, and this still showed up on his record, that DSHS would try and hold this against them on their certification or recert, and many did not think this was fair. I realize that the current problem with DSHS and getting people recertified currently is only part of this problem. If you read the enforcement review committee page, it says that they can take their sweet time in make a determination. Was there not a time frame talked about when DSHS gave their version of what they do? Remember, we are talking about a bunch of beurocrates that you are paying with your tax money. Now, you have to be fingerprinted, like a criminal to get a cert? Why? Because the FBI wants to know all about that they can? Abuse of government powers if you ask me. No wonder nobody wants to get into EMS, besides the low pay. Does the people we pay care if they prevent you from working, as long as they are getting paid? Good question. Now, there are those out there that should not be in EMS, and if you read the list today, the case in Sherman is a good example. But, those that worked there, are they going to be judged by the state when they are recertified? Those with " real " criminal histories, murder, robbery, assault, etc., yes should not be in EMS what-so-ever. But, those that have made a mistake or two in their lives, should not be held to the same standards as those that have more serious crimes. What is everyone elses feelings on this? Wayne --------------------------------- TV dinner still cooling? Check out " Tonight's Picks " on Yahoo! TV. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 2, 2007 Report Share Posted April 2, 2007 For my teacher cert I had to be fingerprinted. It took a month to get everything back. I think every parent wants to know that every teacher has been cleared by the top LE in the nation to be around their children. The public can feel more comfortable that the medic taking care of them has been cleared. I feel more confident than ever before that there is increased due diligence with DSHS. -MH ________________________________ From: texasems-l [texasems-l ] On Behalf Of Wayne D [rxmd911@...] Sent: Monday, April 02, 2007 9:39 AM To: Texas EMS list Subject: Criminal history & EMS Many of you may remember at one of the GETAC meetings last year, someone brought up the criminal history background checks, and the fact that this could turn into a witch hunt by DSHS. Meaning that if Q. Public was arrested 20 yrs ago for a hot check, and this still showed up on his record, that DSHS would try and hold this against them on their certification or recert, and many did not think this was fair. I realize that the current problem with DSHS and getting people recertified currently is only part of this problem. If you read the enforcement review committee page, it says that they can take their sweet time in make a determination. Was there not a time frame talked about when DSHS gave their version of what they do? Remember, we are talking about a bunch of beurocrates that you are paying with your tax money. Now, you have to be fingerprinted, like a criminal to get a cert? Why? Because the FBI wants to know all about that they can? Abuse of government powers if you ask me. No wonder nobody wants to get into EMS, besides the low pay. Does the people we pay care if they prevent you from working, as long as they are getting paid? Good question. Now, there are those out there that should not be in EMS, and if you read the list today, the case in Sherman is a good example. But, those that worked there, are they going to be judged by the state when they are recertified? Those with " real " criminal histories, murder, robbery, assault, etc., yes should not be in EMS what-so-ever. But, those that have made a mistake or two in their lives, should not be held to the same standards as those that have more serious crimes. What is everyone elses feelings on this? Wayne --------------------------------- TV dinner still cooling? Check out " Tonight's Picks " on Yahoo! TV. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 2, 2007 Report Share Posted April 2, 2007 Now something like that I can understand. But are we not going overboard on some of these things? Wayne Hudson wrote: For my teacher cert I had to be fingerprinted. It took a month to get everything back. I think every parent wants to know that every teacher has been cleared by the top LE in the nation to be around their children. The public can feel more comfortable that the medic taking care of them has been cleared. I feel more confident than ever before that there is increased due diligence with DSHS. -MH ________________________________ From: texasems-l [texasems-l ] On Behalf Of Wayne D [rxmd911@...] Sent: Monday, April 02, 2007 9:39 AM To: Texas EMS list Subject: Criminal history & EMS Many of you may remember at one of the GETAC meetings last year, someone brought up the criminal history background checks, and the fact that this could turn into a witch hunt by DSHS. Meaning that if Q. Public was arrested 20 yrs ago for a hot check, and this still showed up on his record, that DSHS would try and hold this against them on their certification or recert, and many did not think this was fair. I realize that the current problem with DSHS and getting people recertified currently is only part of this problem. If you read the enforcement review committee page, it says that they can take their sweet time in make a determination. Was there not a time frame talked about when DSHS gave their version of what they do? Remember, we are talking about a bunch of beurocrates that you are paying with your tax money. Now, you have to be fingerprinted, like a criminal to get a cert? Why? Because the FBI wants to know all about that they can? Abuse of government powers if you ask me. No wonder nobody wants to get into EMS, besides the low pay. Does the people we pay care if they prevent you from working, as long as they are getting paid? Good question. Now, there are those out there that should not be in EMS, and if you read the list today, the case in Sherman is a good example. But, those that worked there, are they going to be judged by the state when they are recertified? Those with " real " criminal histories, murder, robbery, assault, etc., yes should not be in EMS what-so-ever. But, those that have made a mistake or two in their lives, should not be held to the same standards as those that have more serious crimes. What is everyone elses feelings on this? Wayne --------------------------------- TV dinner still cooling? Check out " Tonight's Picks " on Yahoo! TV. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 2, 2007 Report Share Posted April 2, 2007 Wayne, I can tell you that the problem is probably NOT DSHS, but the person filling out the application for certification/recertification. There are 3 questions....1) Have you ever received deferred adjudication for any misdemeanors or felonies; 2) Have you ever been convicted of a felony; 3) Have you ever been convicted of a misdeameanor. Now, say someone got deferred adjudication for the hot check they wrote in college 10 years ago...it was one time and one time only...does it matter to DSHS or to you if you are hiring them....probably not...BUT when the medic is answering the question about DefAd and check " NO " because they think...it isn't on my record it is Deferred Adjudication....and the background check shows it...it initiates an action by DSHS because the person was not honest in answering the questions on the application... Frustrating? Yes...but I would rather have 100% background checks on everyone than a random system...probably pretty scary what they are finding with this (ask Maxie) but we have to educate our friends, co-workers, employees, and employers to answer these questions truthfully...it speed up the process and it prevents an investigation as to why someone lied on their application. BTW, this is one reason why we are moving towards recerting our people (we do it with them) up to 5 or 6 months in advance so if there is a mistake here...we can have some spare time to work through it.... I agree with ...this is one area where DSHS is VERY diligent and doing a good job. Dudley Criminal history & EMS Many of you may remember at one of the GETAC meetings last year, someone brought up the criminal history background checks, and the fact that this could turn into a witch hunt by DSHS. Meaning that if Q. Public was arrested 20 yrs ago for a hot check, and this still showed up on his record, that DSHS would try and hold this against them on their certification or recert, and many did not think this was fair. I realize that the current problem with DSHS and getting people recertified currently is only part of this problem. If you read the enforcement review committee page, it says that they can take their sweet time in make a determination. Was there not a time frame talked about when DSHS gave their version of what they do? Remember, we are talking about a bunch of beurocrates that you are paying with your tax money. Now, you have to be fingerprinted, like a criminal to get a cert? Why? Because the FBI wants to know all about that they can? Abuse of government powers if you ask me. No wonder nobody wants to get into EMS, besides the low pay. Does the people we pay care if they prevent you from working, as long as they are getting paid? Good question. Now, there are those out there that should not be in EMS, and if you read the list today, the case in Sherman is a good example. But, those that worked there, are they going to be judged by the state when they are recertified? Those with " real " criminal histories, murder, robbery, assault, etc., yes should not be in EMS what-so-ever. But, those that have made a mistake or two in their lives, should not be held to the same standards as those that have more serious crimes. What is everyone elses feelings on this? Wayne --------------------------------- TV dinner still cooling? Check out " Tonight's Picks " on Yahoo! TV. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 2, 2007 Report Share Posted April 2, 2007 As y'all know by now, I'm a lawyer. I also work in state government and spend a fair amount of time dealing with administrative law, although not with occupational certification or licensure. Here's the rub -- and why it takes so long, etc. There's a standard called " arbitrary and capricious " in the law. Basically, it means you can't make decisions on a whim. Unfortunately, what some people might consider discretion or judgment, another will consider to be arbitrary and capricious. As a result, we're stuck, for better or worse, with a regulatory system enacted through the process of rulemaking that's a poor, albeit legal, substitute for any of us making that judgment call. Believe it or not, it's probably a good thing. The last thing I think any of us would want is a decision on our EMS certification being based upon which bureaucrat reviewed our file. One person might deny an EMT a license a " minor in possession " charge at age 17 could indicate a drug problem and the guy sitting at the next desk will approve a convicted burglar because burglary " isn't connected to EMS. " Anyways, the moral of the story is that our teachers weren't kidding when they warned us about things going on our " permanent record. " It just so happens that the permanent record isn't our school record, but our criminal record. Hope I've helped y'all figure out the reasoning behind this process. -Wes Ogilvie Criminal history & EMS Many of you may remember at one of the GETAC meetings last year, someone brought up the criminal history background checks, and the fact that this could turn into a witch hunt by DSHS. Meaning that if Q. Public was arrested 20 yrs ago for a hot check, and this still showed up on his record, that DSHS would try and hold this against them on their certification or recert, and many did not think this was fair. I realize that the current problem with DSHS and getting people recertified currently is only part of this problem. If you read the enforcement review committee page, it says that they can take their sweet time in make a determination. Was there not a time frame talked about when DSHS gave their version of what they do? Remember, we are talking about a bunch of beurocrates that you are paying with your tax money. Now, you have to be fingerprinted, like a criminal to get a cert? Why? Because the FBI wants to know all about that they can? Abuse of government powers if you ask me. No wonder nobody wants to get into EMS, besides the low pay. Does the people we pay care if they prevent you from working, as long as they are getting paid? Good question. Now, there are those out there that should not be in EMS, and if you read the list today, the case in Sherman is a good example. But, those that worked there, are they going to be judged by the state when they are recertified? Those with " real " criminal histories, murder, robbery, assault, etc., yes should not be in EMS what-so-ever. But, those that have made a mistake or two in their lives, should not be held to the same standards as those that have more serious crimes. What is everyone elses feelings on this? Wayne --------------------------------- TV dinner still cooling? Check out " Tonight's Picks " on Yahoo! TV. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 2, 2007 Report Share Posted April 2, 2007 it is a common thing that people think deferred adjudication means not on your record. i think that is expungment. ive been asked " have you ever been detained? " which really means stopped by LE for a traffic violation i had to get fingerprinted years ago to work as a medic at a class 1 horse racing track jim davis THEDUDMAN@... wrote: Wayne, I can tell you that the problem is probably NOT DSHS, but the person filling out the application for certification/recertification. There are 3 questions....1) Have you ever received deferred adjudication for any misdemeanors or felonies; 2) Have you ever been convicted of a felony; 3) Have you ever been convicted of a misdeameanor. Now, say someone got deferred adjudication for the hot check they wrote in college 10 years ago...it was one time and one time only...does it matter to DSHS or to you if you are hiring them....probably not...BUT when the medic is answering the question about DefAd and check " NO " because they think...it isn't on my record it is Deferred Adjudication....and the background check shows it...it initiates an action by DSHS because the person was not honest in answering the questions on the application... Frustrating? Yes...but I would rather have 100% background checks on everyone than a random system...probably pretty scary what they are finding with this (ask Maxie) but we have to educate our friends, co-workers, employees, and employers to answer these questions truthfully...it speed up the process and it prevents an investigation as to why someone lied on their application. BTW, this is one reason why we are moving towards recerting our people (we do it with them) up to 5 or 6 months in advance so if there is a mistake here...we can have some spare time to work through it.... I agree with ...this is one area where DSHS is VERY diligent and doing a good job. Dudley Criminal history & EMS Many of you may remember at one of the GETAC meetings last year, someone brought up the criminal history background checks, and the fact that this could turn into a witch hunt by DSHS. Meaning that if Q. Public was arrested 20 yrs ago for a hot check, and this still showed up on his record, that DSHS would try and hold this against them on their certification or recert, and many did not think this was fair. I realize that the current problem with DSHS and getting people recertified currently is only part of this problem. If you read the enforcement review committee page, it says that they can take their sweet time in make a determination. Was there not a time frame talked about when DSHS gave their version of what they do? Remember, we are talking about a bunch of beurocrates that you are paying with your tax money. Now, you have to be fingerprinted, like a criminal to get a cert? Why? Because the FBI wants to know all about that they can? Abuse of government powers if you ask me. No wonder nobody wants to get into EMS, besides the low pay. Does the people we pay care if they prevent you from working, as long as they are getting paid? Good question. Now, there are those out there that should not be in EMS, and if you read the list today, the case in Sherman is a good example. But, those that worked there, are they going to be judged by the state when they are recertified? Those with " real " criminal histories, murder, robbery, assault, etc., yes should not be in EMS what-so-ever. But, those that have made a mistake or two in their lives, should not be held to the same standards as those that have more serious crimes. What is everyone elses feelings on this? Wayne --------------------------------- TV dinner still cooling? Check out " Tonight's Picks " on Yahoo! TV. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 2, 2007 Report Share Posted April 2, 2007 > it is a common thing that people think deferred adjudication means > not on your record. Correct. The arrest still shows, there's just not a final conviction entered. I wonder why EMS doesn't use the " final conviction " standard, though? And while Class C Misdemeanors don't USUALLY show up on a criminal history, there are circumstances when they CAN... Mike Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 3, 2007 Report Share Posted April 3, 2007 Like DOC? Barry E. McClung, FF/EMT-P _____ From: texasems-l [mailto:texasems-l ] On Behalf Of Mike Sent: Monday, 02 April, 2007 21:36 To: texasems-l Subject: Re: Criminal history & EMS And while Class C Misdemeanors don't USUALLY show up on a criminal history, there are circumstances when they CAN... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 4, 2007 Report Share Posted April 4, 2007 they used to ask if you were convicted of anything (other than minor traffic offenses) and now they ask about deferred adjudication,etc) i think??? jim davis Mike wrote: > it is a common thing that people think deferred adjudication means > not on your record. Correct. The arrest still shows, there's just not a final conviction entered. I wonder why EMS doesn't use the " final conviction " standard, though? And while Class C Misdemeanors don't USUALLY show up on a criminal history, there are circumstances when they CAN... Mike --------------------------------- Don't get soaked. Take a quick peek at the forecast with theYahoo! Search weather shortcut. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 5, 2007 Report Share Posted April 5, 2007 In a message dated 4/5/2007 10:06:52 A.M. Central Daylight Time, ExLngHrn@... writes: So the FBI has your prints, big deal... they probably already have them anyway from another application Once you are " in the system' you're in it period. AFIS is a pretty cool thing unless of course you leave your prints at a homicide where you don't belong. ly I'm for printing folks for that reason alone. I've worked 30 maybe 40 major crime scenes in my life between my time in Camden and other paces and since UMDNJ Printed be when I was hired I never had an issue with " why was your print here or there " I know several EMT and medic types from the old stomping grounds that when their prints showed up as " unknowns " they had to take time to go get printed for " rule out " purposes, those prints were taken locally and once they were ruled out they were filed but not placed in any " system " , that was before AFIS of course so I'm not sure how they'd be handled today but these guys and gals had to go to XYZ PD and get printed and that takes time and effort, getting printed at the front end makes life easier for all in my view. I'm not at all paranoid about that black helicopter that follows me to work every morning. Louis N. Molino, Sr., CET FF/NREMT-B/FSI/EMSI Freelance Consultant/Trainer/Author/Journalist/Fire Protection Consultant LNMolino@... (Cell Phone) (IFW/TFW/FSS Office) (IFW/TFW/FSS Fax) " A Texan with a Jersey Attitude " " Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people " Eleanor Roosevelt - US diplomat & reformer (1884 - 1962) The comments contained in this E-mail are the opinions of the author and the author alone. I in no way ever intend to speak for any person or organization that I am in any way whatsoever involved or associated with unless I specifically state that I am doing so. Further this E-mail is intended only for its stated recipient and may contain private and or confidential materials retransmission is strictly prohibited unless placed in the public domain by the original author. ************************************** See what's free at http://www.aol.com. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 5, 2007 Report Share Posted April 5, 2007 Ok another two cents from the list newbie... Are criminal background checks a bad idea. I dont think anyone in this day and age can say no once they think about it. There are many many people out there that should not be in EMS. As for the finger print requirement... its not such a bad thing really. So the FBI has your prints, big deal... they probably already have them anyway from another application... Is it too much government oversight... I dont think so in a day where identity theft is so prevelent. Would any of us want to be held liable because someone stole your identity, became a paramedic under your name,ssn, etc. and then killed someone? While that may be far fetched, how is submitting your finger prints really hurting you other than a few minutes of trouble. Or rather is it something that just gives us one more reason to gripe? And as far as the background checks taking too long or too thorough.. I have seen the mom test applied to few things on the list server. Why not this? Would you want the people going to your mom's house to have been checked thoroughly? Can it be fustrating to submit the thing? Sure but why try to play with the system and try to get out of reporting this or that and making the system take longer. If there is something there to report, do it, the people at DSHS cant be that lacking of common sense when they see things listed. But if you dont include it, and your application/renewal gets more scrutiny, is it their fault or yours when they have to do more indepth checking. Another point is the fact that your application / renewal is a gov. doc and that any attempt to mistate or intentionally leave something out can be a felony all of its own. This is something I am sure DSHS thinks of when they find something and use it. I mean if we cant fill out the application/renewal form out honestly, what is to say we wouldnt fudge the pt care report to cover ourselvs. And Finally! My three cents... If we want to be seen as professionals then lets let ourselves be scrutinized as such. Let it be said that our profession is held to the highest standards.When asked why we should have the status as other fields in medicine or career fields we can use it to our advantage. ez FF/EMT B > For my teacher cert I had to be fingerprinted. It took a month to get everything back. I think every parent wants to know that every teacher has been cleared by the top LE in the nation to be around their children. The public can feel more comfortable that the medic taking care of them has been cleared. I feel more confident than ever before that there is increased due diligence with DSHS. > > -MH > ________________________________ > From: texasems-l [texasems-l ] On Behalf Of Wayne D [rxmd911@...] > Sent: Monday, April 02, 2007 9:39 AM > To: Texas EMS list > Subject: Criminal history & EMS > > Many of you may remember at one of the GETAC meetings last year, someone brought up the criminal history background checks, and the fact that this could turn into a witch hunt by DSHS. Meaning that if Q. Public was arrested 20 yrs ago for a hot check, and this still showed up on his record, that DSHS would try and hold this against them on their certification or recert, and many did not think this was fair. > > I realize that the current problem with DSHS and getting people recertified currently is only part of this problem. If you read the enforcement review committee page, it says that they can take their sweet time in make a determination. Was there not a time frame talked about when DSHS gave their version of what they do? Remember, we are talking about a bunch of beurocrates that you are paying with your tax money. > > Now, you have to be fingerprinted, like a criminal to get a cert? Why? Because the FBI wants to know all about that they can? Abuse of government powers if you ask me. No wonder nobody wants to get into EMS, besides the low pay. > > Does the people we pay care if they prevent you from working, as long as they are getting paid? Good question. > > Now, there are those out there that should not be in EMS, and if you read the list today, the case in Sherman is a good example. But, those that worked there, are they going to be judged by the state when they are recertified? Those with " real " criminal histories, murder, robbery, assault, etc., yes should not be in EMS what-so- ever. But, those that have made a mistake or two in their lives, should not be held to the same standards as those that have more serious crimes. > > What is everyone elses feelings on this? > > Wayne > > --------------------------------- > TV dinner still cooling? > Check out " Tonight's Picks " on Yahoo! TV. > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 5, 2007 Report Share Posted April 5, 2007 Dang -- somebody's making some sense when discussing this topic -- and they aren't talking about the UN, Trilateral Commission, Area 51, or black helicopters! Somebody wake me up! Seriously, thanks . -Wes " Forgets how many background checks he's had " Ogilvie Austin, Texas Criminal history & EMS > > Many of you may remember at one of the GETAC meetings last year, someone brought up the criminal history background checks, and the fact that this could turn into a witch hunt by DSHS. Meaning that if Q. Public was arrested 20 yrs ago for a hot check, and this still showed up on his record, that DSHS would try and hold this against them on their certification or recert, and many did not think this was fair. > > I realize that the current problem with DSHS and getting people recertified currently is only part of this problem. If you read the enforcement review committee page, it says that they can take their sweet time in make a determination. Was there not a time frame talked about when DSHS gave their version of what they do? Remember, we are talking about a bunch of beurocrates that you are paying with your tax money. > > Now, you have to be fingerprinted, like a criminal to get a cert? Why? Because the FBI wants to know all about that they can? Abuse of government powers if you ask me. No wonder nobody wants to get into EMS, besides the low pay. > > Does the people we pay care if they prevent you from working, as long as they are getting paid? Good question. > > Now, there are those out there that should not be in EMS, and if you read the list today, the case in Sherman is a good example. But, those that worked there, are they going to be judged by the state when they are recertified? Those with " real " criminal histories, murder, robbery, assault, etc., yes should not be in EMS what-so- ever. But, those that have made a mistake or two in their lives, should not be held to the same standards as those that have more serious crimes. > > What is everyone elses feelings on this? > > Wayne > > --------------------------------- > TV dinner still cooling? > Check out " Tonight's Picks " on Yahoo! TV. > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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