Guest guest Posted March 29, 2007 Report Share Posted March 29, 2007 Hey Guys, have a question.. One of the guys I work with got some pictures in his Email that were taken in the back of an ambulance .. the pics were graphic and of the patient's injuries and his face. I'm pretty sure the patient didn't consent to having his pic plastered in Emails to this EMT's buddies. who do you report stuff like this to and should I be reporting it after all the E-mail wasn't to me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 29, 2007 Report Share Posted March 29, 2007 In a message dated 3/29/2007 9:30:22 PM Central Daylight Time, firerescue2ems@... writes: (in reference to a post where someone was asking about the misuse of pictures taken of a patient) YOU DO NOT TURN " BENEDICT ARNOLD " ON YOUR PARTNER. WHAT HAPPENS ON THE TRUCK, STAYS ON THE TRUCK. anyone else besides me who has a problem with this attitude when it is in regards to patient safety, security or confidentiality? While I have taken pictures of wounds for educational purposes, the only time I've included faces was with the patient's/parent's permission, and then only for limited usage (like giving a kid a souvenir of his helicopter ride for a busted leg). Hijinks are one thing...censorious behavior (like posting your patient's face on the web without permission) is another...and this is the sort of thing that could cost your license if you are found to have a been an accomplice after the fact... Or do we allow ourselves to remain 'ambulance drivers' and not professionals? ck S. Krin, DO FAAFP Former NR EMT-A... ************************************** See what's free at http://www.aol.com. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 29, 2007 Report Share Posted March 29, 2007 In a message dated 3/29/2007 11:59:29 PM Central Daylight Time, hatfield@... writes: I think Doc was referring to the 'what gets done on the truck stays on the truck'. I agree with Doc on this one. If you are talking about telling me you are screwing around on your girlfriend, that's one thing, you do something illegal and that's another issue altogether. which was exactly my point. We cannot afford to find ourselves protecting bad apples in EMS. If Physician groups hadn't tolerated this sort of thing, it's less likely that we would be seeing the kinds of malpractice insurance problems that we are. ck S. Krin, DO FAAFP ************************************** See what's free at http://www.aol.com. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 29, 2007 Report Share Posted March 29, 2007 The pictures may very well be a HIPAA violation and probably are. If the pictures came from a member of your organization, you should report the incident to your HIPAA Privacy Officer. Every service must have a HIPAA Privacy Officer. If you do not know who your privacy officer is, then your service is not in compliance with HIPAA, which mandates that every provider educate its employees about its provisions. The very fact that some EMT has transmitted pictures of a patient to others is evidence of a HIPAA violation, which carries a minimum $100 dollar fine to the provider for each incident. Find out who your service's Privacy Officer is, and if your service doesn't have a Privacy Officer, discretely talk to your supervisor/manager and suggest to her/him that the service is not in HIPAA compliance. Gene G. > > Hey Guys, > > have a question.. One of the guys I work with got some pictures in his > Email that were taken in the back of an ambulance .. the pics were > graphic and of the patient's injuries and his face. I'm pretty sure > the patient didn't consent to having his pic plastered in Emails to > this EMT's buddies. who do you report stuff like this to and should I > be reporting it after all the E-mail wasn't to me. > > > ************************************** See what's free at http://www.aol.com. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 29, 2007 Report Share Posted March 29, 2007 Obviously, you are new to the way life that we live as Firemen {and Fire women}, Medics, and Police Officers. Let me help help you, " We as a profession {and family} are unique individuals. We find interest and fascination in things that make most people nauseous. We spend our lives experiencing things, most people do not want to admit to themselves exist. Put simply, as long as no one is hurt or dies, you back your partner. YOU DO NOT TURN " BENEDICT ARNOLD " ON YOUR PARTNER. WHAT HAPPENS ON THE TRUCK, STAYS ON THE TRUCK. Question???? Hey Guys, have a question.. One of the guys I work with got some pictures in his Email that were taken in the back of an ambulance .. the pics were graphic and of the patient's injuries and his face. I'm pretty sure the patient didn't consent to having his pic plastered in Emails to this EMT's buddies. who do you report stuff like this to and should I be reporting it after all the E-mail wasn't to me. ________________________________________________________________________________\ ____ Sucker-punch spam with award-winning protection. Try the free Yahoo! Mail Beta. http://advision.webevents.yahoo.com/mailbeta/features_spam.html Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 29, 2007 Report Share Posted March 29, 2007 Couple of questions to clarify.... 1. was the photo taken by an on duty personnell? 2. Was the photo taken from inside the ambulance or was the photographer standing out side? IF the photo was taken on duty. there are some really hairy legal things to think about. If not then its a " public event " and the " right to privacy " is limited in some fashion. I don't have specifics. But its like a press photo. However if the photo was taken inside the ambulance, then the question abounds about HIPPA. Yuck. I would not turn them in unless it was done while on duty, and the photos are used in a despairingly manner. If used for training I have no problem with that, or in a personal collection that is not for public broadcast. Tom LeNeveu Paramedic Fort Worth Texas Question???? Hey Guys, have a question.. One of the guys I work with got some pictures in his Email that were taken in the back of an ambulance .. the pics were graphic and of the patient's injuries and his face. I'm pretty sure the patient didn't consent to having his pic plastered in Emails to this EMT's buddies. who do you report stuff like this to and should I be reporting it after all the E-mail wasn't to me. ____________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _ Sucker-punch spam with award-winning protection. Try the free Yahoo! Mail Beta. http://advision. webevents. yahoo.com/ mailbeta/ features_ spam.html Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 29, 2007 Report Share Posted March 29, 2007 Hoo Boy! The Thin Blue Line, huh? What happens in Vegas stays in Vegas. Well, my friend, you're living in a dream world. Whether you recognize it or not, the HIPAA law applies to you and your friends, regardless of what you may think. And The Texas EMS Law, Chapter 773, Texas Health and Safety Code, also has some pertinent provisions about patient confidentiality. So you have gone public as saying that " what happens on the truck stays on the truck. " So far, so good. But what if somebody decides that the publication of the pictures hurt them? And they get a MEAN LAWYER to go after the folks who published the pics? They'll get a subpoena for the computers and phones that were involved in the publication of the pics, and sooner or later you will be identified as a recipient, and then they'll find your comments, and they'll get a subpoena for you and your computer's hard drive. But even if you 've " deleted " those messages, they're saved on numerous servers all over the world, and it will be quite easy for investigators to find your messages. Your deposition will be taken, you'll be asked about whether or not you received the pics and whether or not you passed them on to others. You will be cross-examined about your comments, and ultimately, if the case goes to trial, the jury will hear your comments and see you at your deposition. You will plead that all you did was look at the pics, and that you never did anything with them that would harm the patient, but the lawyers will question you for hours about when you saw them, why you saw them, what you told others about them, and so forth, all to show that you took the patient's pictures and made fun of them. Fun, huh? Of course, your employer's insurance won't cover you for your lega l expenses in defending yourself from charges of invasion of privacy, and it won't provide any legal representation for you when DSHS proposes to decertify you for violation of the privacy provisions of Chapter 773 and HIPAA, and unless you have personal malpractice insurance, which I'll bet you don't, you will either cave in or pay $$$$$ to lawyers to defend you and try to maintain your ability to work as a medic. So yeah. Just keep on being a GOOD OLE BOY MEDIC and passing around pics of patients for fun and games. Hey, folks, HIPAA is only for dopes, RIGHT? It doesn't apply to us good ole boys and girls in EMS. We've always passed around pics of dead patients and blood and guts, so why shouldn't we be allowed to keep doing it? You provide your own answers. By the way, you're a defense lawyer's DREAM. But have lots of money. Your parents and relatives can help you by mortgaging their houses now that Texas allows equity mortgages. I know they'll love you for this. Gene Gandy, JD, LP > > Obviously, you are new to the way life that we live as Firemen {and Fire > women}, Medics, and Police Officers. Let me help help you, " We as a profession > {and family} are unique individuals. We find interest and fascination in > things that make most people nauseous. We spend our lives experiencing things, > most people do not want to admit to themselves exist. Put simply, as long as no > one is hurt or dies, you back your partner. YOU DO NOT TURN " BENEDICT ARNOLD " > ON YOUR PARTNER. WHAT HAPPENS ON THE TRUCK, STAYS ON THE TRUCK. > > Question???? > > Hey Guys, > > have a question.. One of the guys I work with got some pictures in his > Email that were taken in the back of an ambulance .. the pics were > graphic and of the patient's injuries and his face. I'm pretty sure > the patient didn't consent to having his pic plastered in Emails to > this EMT's buddies. who do you report stuff like this to and should I > be reporting it after all the E-mail wasn't to me. > > ____________ ________ ________ ________ ________ ________ > Sucker-punch spam with award-winning protection. > Try the free Yahoo! Mail Beta. > http://advision.http://advhttp://advhttp://adhttp://adhttp://ad > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 29, 2007 Report Share Posted March 29, 2007 I feel the need to present some guidelines for folks who want to take pictures at scenes. 1. If you are on-duty, then anything you record, in any media, is part of the patient's medical record. So if you take a picture of a patient while you're on duty, your picture is subject to the privacy provisions of HIPAA and TH & SC Chapter 773. It becomes a part of the patient's records, should be appended to your PCR, and whether or not you do that, it's privileged. 2. If you are not an on-duty provider, you can take a picture of anything onscene that anyone passing by could have seen with the naked eye. Bystanders can record anything that can be seen or heard by anyone passing by, and it's not protected. You can pass those pictures around at will without fear of liability, although keep in mind that anybody can sue you on any day for anything. If you get sued for passing around pictures of a patient that you took as a bystander, then you may have to defend the suit. 3. If you are the recipient of pictures sent by someone else who took them in violation of privacy rules, you may or may not be liable for something. If you only view them and don't do anything else with them, you may not be liable for anything simply because a person claiming damage wouldn't be able to show that they had suffered any injury or damage as a result of your actions; on the other hand, if you passed the pictures on and somehow because of that the patient was harmed, you could be held liable. Privacy rules only attach to people in certain situations. A patient has the right to think that his caregivers will not wrongfully expose his communications with caregivers to public scrutiny. But things that can be observed by any member of the public passing by the scene of an accident or incident, are fair game for being recorded. Pictures can either be protected by HIPAA, or they can be totally non-protected, depending upon who took them and under what circumstances they were taken. Gene G. > > Couple of questions to clarify.... > > 1. was the photo taken by an on duty personnel? > 2. Was the photo taken from inside the ambulance or was the photographer > standing out side? > > IF the photo was taken on duty. there are some really hairy legal things to > think about. If not then its a " public event " and the " right to privacy " is > limited in some fashion. I don't have specifics. But its like a press photo. > However if the photo was taken inside the ambulance, then the question abounds > about HIPPA. Yuck. > > I would not turn them in unless it was done while on duty, and the photos > are used in a despairingly manner. If used for training I have no problem with > that, or in a personal collection that is not for public broadcast. > > Tom LeNeveu > Paramedic > Fort Worth Texas > > Question???? > > Hey Guys, > > have a question.. One of the guys I work with got some pictures in his > Email that were taken in the back of an ambulance .. the pics were > graphic and of the patient's injuries and his face. I'm pretty sure > the patient didn't consent to having his pic plastered in Emails to > this EMT's buddies. who do you report stuff like this to and should I > be reporting it after all the E-mail wasn't to me. > > ____________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _ > Sucker-punch spam with award-winning protection. > Try the free Yahoo! Mail Beta. > http://advision. webevents. yahoo.com/ mailbeta/ features_ spam.html > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 29, 2007 Report Share Posted March 29, 2007 > > In a message dated 3/29/2007 9:30:22 PM Central Daylight Time, > firerescue2ems@... writes: > > YOU DO NOT TURN " BENEDICT ARNOLD " ON YOUR PARTNER. WHAT HAPPENS ON THE > TRUCK, STAYS ON THE TRUCK. > > anyone else besides me who has a problem with this attitude when it is in > regards to patient safety, security or confidentiality? I don't, and here's why. It's not the poster's problem. If he doesn't want to see, have or know about the pics, he can hit delete and ask his buddy not to forward stuff - maybe even use it as a means to educate his buddy on why, if these were in fact on duty pics, there are problems (legal, ethical and moral) with posting identifiable injury pics, etc. Choosing instead to " out " someone, and use a public list for backing to do so, is cowardly and goes against the " strong brotherhood " we tend to develop and need. Cover it up? Of course not. But step in without knowing all the facts, make an assumption, and turn a fellow medic in for something that the original poster isn't even a part of, party to, or has any direct interest in? The OP shouldn't even be considering that, and Rick hits the nail on the head. Stepping up and causing a problem isn't going to save anyone from any harm - it's going to make the situation bigger and worse... and put him on the outside with every medic that knows what he did. Mike :/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 30, 2007 Report Share Posted March 30, 2007 Maybe you should go and talk to the person that did this. Ask them what they were thinking. I can see very good points to every ones reply so far. I personally feel the best thing to do would be confront the person, tell them that you feel that their actions were unprofessional, and once crap like that gets out to the general public who does not know anything about the wonderful world of EMS, it could put EMS in the news for another negative mark, and we all know how the media likes to blow things out of proportion. I'm a firm believer in what happens in the truck stays in the truck, but you do need to draw the line somewhere when it comes to the patient, the care they receive and the respect we should try to give them whether they deserve it or not. Just my two cents Rick wrote: Obviously, you are new to the way life that we live as Firemen {and Fire women}, Medics, and Police Officers. Let me help help you, " We as a profession {and family} are unique individuals. We find interest and fascination in things that make most people nauseous. We spend our lives experiencing things, most people do not want to admit to themselves exist. Put simply, as long as no one is hurt or dies, you back your partner. YOU DO NOT TURN " BENEDICT ARNOLD " ON YOUR PARTNER. WHAT HAPPENS ON THE TRUCK, STAYS ON THE TRUCK. Question???? Hey Guys, have a question.. One of the guys I work with got some pictures in his Email that were taken in the back of an ambulance .. the pics were graphic and of the patient's injuries and his face. I'm pretty sure the patient didn't consent to having his pic plastered in Emails to this EMT's buddies. who do you report stuff like this to and should I be reporting it after all the E-mail wasn't to me. __________________________________________________________ Sucker-punch spam with award-winning protection. Try the free Yahoo! Mail Beta. http://advision.webevents.yahoo.com/mailbeta/features_spam.html Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 30, 2007 Report Share Posted March 30, 2007 This is the most asinine things I have read in a long time. So if your partner does something illegal in the ambulance, it stays on the truck? If not, where do you draw the line? Legal vs. illegal? Was taking the picture legal? Was sharing it with anyone not involved in the patient care legal? Does anyone get hurt if you drink in your ambulance? If nobody get hurt while you were drunk, does it count? I could get carried away, but I think I'll stop and let your comments soak in a minute or two before I go on. Re: Question???? Obviously, you are new to the way life that we live as Firemen {and Fire women}, Medics, and Police Officers. Let me help help you, " We as a profession {and family} are unique individuals. We find interest and fascination in things that make most people nauseous. We spend our lives experiencing things, most people do not want to admit to themselves exist. Put simply, as long as no one is hurt or dies, you back your partner. YOU DO NOT TURN " BENEDICT ARNOLD " ON YOUR PARTNER. WHAT HAPPENS ON THE TRUCK, STAYS ON THE TRUCK. Question???? Hey Guys, have a question.. One of the guys I work with got some pictures in his Email that were taken in the back of an ambulance .. the pics were graphic and of the patient's injuries and his face. I'm pretty sure the patient didn't consent to having his pic plastered in Emails to this EMT's buddies. who do you report stuff like this to and should I be reporting it after all the E-mail wasn't to me. __________________________________________________________ Sucker-punch spam with award-winning protection. Try the free Yahoo! Mail Beta. http://advision. <http://advision.webevents.yahoo.com/mailbeta/features_spam.html> webevents.yahoo.com/mailbeta/features_spam.html Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 30, 2007 Report Share Posted March 30, 2007 I think Doc was referring to the 'what gets done on the truck stays on the truck'. I agree with Doc on this one. If you are talking about telling me you are screwing around on your girlfriend, that's one thing, you do something illegal and that's another issue altogether. Re: Question???? On 3/29/07, krin135 (AT) aol (DOT) <mailto:krin135%40aol.com> com <krin135 (AT) aol (DOT) <mailto:krin135%40aol.com> com> wrote: > > In a message dated 3/29/2007 9:30:22 PM Central Daylight Time, > firerescue2ems@ <mailto:firerescue2ems%40yahoo.com> yahoo.com writes: > > YOU DO NOT TURN " BENEDICT ARNOLD " ON YOUR PARTNER. WHAT HAPPENS ON THE > TRUCK, STAYS ON THE TRUCK. > > anyone else besides me who has a problem with this attitude when it is in > regards to patient safety, security or confidentiality? I don't, and here's why. It's not the poster's problem. If he doesn't want to see, have or know about the pics, he can hit delete and ask his buddy not to forward stuff - maybe even use it as a means to educate his buddy on why, if these were in fact on duty pics, there are problems (legal, ethical and moral) with posting identifiable injury pics, etc. Choosing instead to " out " someone, and use a public list for backing to do so, is cowardly and goes against the " strong brotherhood " we tend to develop and need. Cover it up? Of course not. But step in without knowing all the facts, make an assumption, and turn a fellow medic in for something that the original poster isn't even a part of, party to, or has any direct interest in? The OP shouldn't even be considering that, and Rick hits the nail on the head. Stepping up and causing a problem isn't going to save anyone from any harm - it's going to make the situation bigger and worse... and put him on the outside with every medic that knows what he did. Mike :/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 30, 2007 Report Share Posted March 30, 2007 >>Put simply, as long as no one is hurt or dies, you back your partner. YOU DO NOT TURN " BENEDICT ARNOLD " ON YOUR PARTNER. WHAT HAPPENS ON THE TRUCK, STAYS ON THE TRUCK.<< WRONG. You owe it to your partner to take the issue up with them *first* but it had better be resolved with that first conversation. Partners watch eachother's back. Partners also don't put eachother in the kind of situation this EMT is in. This code of silence stuff is bullshit. -- Grayson, CCEMT-P, etc. MEDIC Training Solutions http://www.medictrainingsolutions.com/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 30, 2007 Report Share Posted March 30, 2007 >>The OP shouldn't even be considering that, and Rick hits the nail on the head. Stepping up and causing a problem isn't going to save anyone from any harm - it's going to make the situation bigger and worse... and put him on the outside with every medic that knows what he did.<< No Mike, he misses the nail head by several feet. I'll agree with you that the original poster needs to address this issue with the partner FIRST, before asking advice in a public forum about how to turn this guy in. Tattling on your partner, without knowing all the facts, is just chickenshit. But Rick's reply was a blanket statement implying a code of silence in EMS. I call bullshit on that one. Everyone keeps their mouth shut as long as no one is hurt or killed? What kind of crap is that, and how do you quantify " hurt? " Is it physical, emotional, or mental damage? Does a breach of privacy qualify as harm? You bet it does. And if the organization this person belongs to would ostracize someone for blowing the whistle on inappropriate behavior, then the culture of the organization is rotten, not the original poster. -- Grayson, CCEMT-P, etc. MEDIC Training Solutions http://www.medictrainingsolutions.com/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 30, 2007 Report Share Posted March 30, 2007 But this didn't happen on the truck. It happened at his house (assumably, could have been anywhere he checks his email). He wasn't the on duty one, he got some third or fourth party emails he was worried about the content of. Completely different story. Mike > > I think Doc was referring to the 'what gets done on the truck stays on > the truck'. I agree with Doc on this one. If you are talking about > telling me you are screwing around on your girlfriend, that's one thing, > you do something illegal and that's another issue altogether. > > Re: Question???? > > On 3/29/07, krin135 (AT) aol (DOT) <mailto:krin135% <krin135%25>40aol.com> com < > krin135 (AT) aol (DOT) > <mailto:krin135% <krin135%25>40aol.com> com> wrote: > > > > In a message dated 3/29/2007 9:30:22 PM Central Daylight Time, > > firerescue2ems@ <mailto:firerescue2ems%40yahoo.com> yahoo.com writes: > > > > YOU DO NOT TURN " BENEDICT ARNOLD " ON YOUR PARTNER. WHAT HAPPENS ON THE > > TRUCK, STAYS ON THE TRUCK. > > > > anyone else besides me who has a problem with this attitude when it is > in > > regards to patient safety, security or confidentiality? > > I don't, and here's why. It's not the poster's problem. If he > doesn't want to see, have or know about the pics, he can hit delete > and ask his buddy not to forward stuff - maybe even use it as a means > to educate his buddy on why, if these were in fact on duty pics, there > are problems (legal, ethical and moral) with posting identifiable > injury pics, etc. > > Choosing instead to " out " someone, and use a public list for backing > to do so, is cowardly and goes against the " strong brotherhood " we > tend to develop and need. Cover it up? Of course not. But step in > without knowing all the facts, make an assumption, and turn a fellow > medic in for something that the original poster isn't even a part of, > party to, or has any direct interest in? The OP shouldn't even be > considering that, and Rick hits the nail on the head. Stepping > up and causing a problem isn't going to save anyone from any harm - > it's going to make the situation bigger and worse... and put him on > the outside with every medic that knows what he did. > > Mike :/ > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 30, 2007 Report Share Posted March 30, 2007 There are two sides to this issue, like any (okay, maybe three-ten sides). Here's how I boil it down: Professional courtesy involves me " cutting you a break " just as much as it involves you being courteous enough not to do whatever it was that you now hope I'll " cut you a break " for. While there shouldn't be a culture of silence, EMS must foster a community of teamwork and trust, and usually do so with people who have no military experience to build on - and have a diminished view of team vs. self. I'm not advocating protecting someone who's intentionally screwing up. I'm advocating not throwing someone to the wolves without having all the facts, and without going to them first to see that a) you understand what's going on and they understand what's going on in the same terms you do. If I can resolve a problem with my partner then " what happens on the truck stays on the truck. " If I can't resolve it after attempting to work with my partner about it, then it's at least in part due to something my partner did/refused to do when I approached them - and that's on both of us, not just me or just him. Mike > > >>The OP shouldn't even be considering that, and Rick hits the > nail on the head. Stepping > up and causing a problem isn't going to save anyone from any harm - it's > going to make the situation bigger and worse... and put him on the outside > with every medic that knows what he did.<< > > No Mike, he misses the nail head by several feet. I'll agree with you that > the original poster needs to address this issue with the partner FIRST, > before asking advice in a public forum about how to turn this guy in. > Tattling on your partner, without knowing all the facts, is just > chickenshit. > > But Rick's reply was a blanket statement implying a code of silence in > EMS. I call bullshit on that one. Everyone keeps their mouth shut as long as > no one is hurt or killed? What kind of crap is that, and how do you quantify > " hurt? " > > Is it physical, emotional, or mental damage? Does a breach of privacy > qualify as harm? You bet it does. > > And if the organization this person belongs to would ostracize someone for > blowing the whistle on inappropriate behavior, then the culture of the > organization is rotten, not the original poster. > > -- > Grayson, CCEMT-P, etc. > MEDIC Training Solutions > http://www.medictrainingsolutions.com/ > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 30, 2007 Report Share Posted March 30, 2007 YOU DO NOT TURN " BENEDICT ARNOLD " ON YOUR PARTNER. WHAT HAPPENS ON THE TRUCK, STAYS ON THE TRUCK. That sounds almost as nasty as the word " snitch " . Wrong is wrong and should not be protected partner or not. If you do then you can both head for the unemployment line. Henry Re: Question???? In a message dated 3/29/2007 9:30:22 PM Central Daylight Time, firerescue2ems@... writes: (in reference to a post where someone was asking about the misuse of pictures taken of a patient) YOU DO NOT TURN " BENEDICT ARNOLD " ON YOUR PARTNER. WHAT HAPPENS ON THE TRUCK, STAYS ON THE TRUCK. anyone else besides me who has a problem with this attitude when it is in regards to patient safety, security or confidentiality? While I have taken pictures of wounds for educational purposes, the only time I've included faces was with the patient's/parent's permission, and then only for limited usage (like giving a kid a souvenir of his helicopter ride for a busted leg). Hijinks are one thing...censorious behavior (like posting your patient's face on the web without permission) is another...and this is the sort of thing that could cost your license if you are found to have a been an accomplice after the fact... Or do we allow ourselves to remain 'ambulance drivers' and not professionals? ck S. Krin, DO FAAFP Former NR EMT-A... ************************************** See what's free at http://www.aol.com. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 30, 2007 Report Share Posted March 30, 2007 In a message dated 3/30/2007 2:46:37 PM Central Daylight Time, Quinten@... writes: Looking through all of the threads on this subject I have yet to see patient rights or HIPPA come up. What if the pics were you or one of your family...I am sure you would not want to see them on myspace or youtube or any one of the dozen or so sites out there. Keep reading...Gene Gandy, Grayson and I have all raised those points... ck S. Krin, DO FAAFP ************************************** See what's free at http://www.aol.com. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 30, 2007 Report Share Posted March 30, 2007 Looking through all of the threads on this subject I have yet to see patient rights or HIPPA come up. What if the pics were you or one of your family...I am sure you would not want to see them on myspace or youtube or any one of the dozen or so sites out there. Either we are professionals or we are not. You cannot have it both ways. If a EMS worker has that little regard for his patient or his patient's rights...is this someone that should be working in this profession in the first place. What is next...concealed video camera for when he makes calls into the home to post online? Quinten Firefighter/NREMT-P Question???? Hey Guys, have a question.. One of the guys I work with got some pictures in his Email that were taken in the back of an ambulance .. the pics were graphic and of the patient's injuries and his face. I'm pretty sure the patient didn't consent to having his pic plastered in Emails to this EMT's buddies. who do you report stuff like this to and should I be reporting it after all the E-mail wasn't to me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 30, 2007 Report Share Posted March 30, 2007 For what reason were the photos taken? Why did this EMT receive them? What purpose will they be used for? As a supervisor and professional these are the questions that would need to be asked and the answers received would need to assure that there is nothing that will cause harm to the patient or the service. Internally would be the first phase to handle the situation. By that, speak to the person who received the photo's, did he/she object to them being sent? Why were they sent to him/her? Go to your immediate supervisor. Go up the chain of supervisors or to the top of the supervisory chain in your organization if necessary. If all else fails TDSHS has a procedure to complain about incidents that could or will cause harm to patients, personnel, or services. It is hard to stand up and make a complaint. If it is done for the good of all there is nothing to be ashamed about. If it is done with malice and to cause disruption for the sake of disruption then there is a problem. My Opinion only. streetmedic180 wrote: Hey Guys, have a question.. One of the guys I work with got some pictures in his Email that were taken in the back of an ambulance .. the pics were graphic and of the patient's injuries and his face. I'm pretty sure the patient didn't consent to having his pic plastered in Emails to this EMT's buddies. who do you report stuff like this to and should I be reporting it after all the E-mail wasn't to me. Danny L. Owner/NREMT-P PETSAR INC. (Panhandle Emergency Training Services And Response) Office Fax Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 30, 2007 Report Share Posted March 30, 2007 Consider the 'mother' test here within ethics and morals. Would you want a picture of your injured or sick mother floating around on the internet???? 99.9% would say no. If something fails the mother test, it is most likely unethical. To me, unstructured pictures that are for gore value should not be circulated by anyone. We need the public to know that we are compassionate providers, instead of a bunch of johnny-whoo-whoos. Pictures added to a case study that explain the continuum of care are very good. For instance - pictures and case presentation of a open fx on scene at ED, in surg, and recovery with full explanation and pt. permission. -MH ________________________________ From: texasems-l [texasems-l ] On Behalf Of Rick [firerescue2ems@...] Sent: Thursday, March 29, 2007 9:22 PM To: texasems-l Subject: Re: Question???? Obviously, you are new to the way life that we live as Firemen {and Fire women}, Medics, and Police Officers. Let me help help you, " We as a profession {and family} are unique individuals. We find interest and fascination in things that make most people nauseous. We spend our lives experiencing things, most people do not want to admit to themselves exist. Put simply, as long as no one is hurt or dies, you back your partner. YOU DO NOT TURN " BENEDICT ARNOLD " ON YOUR PARTNER. WHAT HAPPENS ON THE TRUCK, STAYS ON THE TRUCK. Question???? Hey Guys, have a question.. One of the guys I work with got some pictures in his Email that were taken in the back of an ambulance .. the pics were graphic and of the patient's injuries and his face. I'm pretty sure the patient didn't consent to having his pic plastered in Emails to this EMT's buddies. who do you report stuff like this to and should I be reporting it after all the E-mail wasn't to me. __________________________________________________________ Sucker-punch spam with award-winning protection. Try the free Yahoo! Mail Beta. http://advision.webevents.yahoo.com/mailbeta/features_spam.html Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 30, 2007 Report Share Posted March 30, 2007 My first and only post on the subject said that could be a HIPAA violation. The service might be liable for a fine at a minimum. The person who took and sent pictures of a patient by email to a friend may well have violated the Texas EMS regulations and could be brought up on disciplinary charges. Chapter 773's confidentiality provisions would seem to have been violated, if the facts are as presented. HIPAA allows patient information to be used in certain ways, and one of them is for " healthcare operations. " That includes in QA/QI/education. The situation, as I recall it, did not seem to fit that exception. If pictures of a patient taken in the ambulance are sent around for any purpose other than the above, then there would seem to be a violation. And when useing photos for training and education, the patient should not be identified. DHSH personnel monitor this list, and it is not without possibility that one of their people has noticed this and will begin an investigation to see whether or not a violation has occurred. Privacy violations are serious enough that Congress saw fit to pass a national law to deal with them. Texas has followed Congress' lead in making privacy violations a serious matter. Gene Gandy > > Looking through all of the threads on this subject I have yet to see > patient rights or HIPPA come up. What if the pics were you or one of > your family...I am sure you would not want to see them on myspace or > youtube or any one of the dozen or so sites out there. > > Either we are professionals or we are not. You cannot have it both > ways. If a EMS worker has that little regard for his patient or his > patient's rights...is this someone that should be working in this > profession in the first place. What is next...concealed video camera > for when he makes calls into the home to post online? > > Quinten > Firefighter/ Firefi > > Question???? > > Hey Guys, > > have a question.. One of the guys I work with got some pictures in his > Email that were taken in the back of an ambulance .. the pics were > graphic and of the patient's injuries and his face. I'm pretty sure > the patient didn't consent to having his pic plastered in Emails to > this EMT's buddies. who do you report stuff like this to and should I > be reporting it after all the E-mail wasn't to me. > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 30, 2007 Report Share Posted March 30, 2007 YOU DO NOT TURN " BENEDICT ARNOLD " ON YOUR PARTNER. WHAT HAPPENS ON THE TRUCK, STAYS ON THE TRUCK. If my partner ever did anything stupid I always felt free to air it out. And he or she would do the same in turn. That's one way we both got better at what we did. In this instance I know I would have given him/her " The Look " and questioned the necessity of taking pics of a patient. One question... what if you got a email of a " cool " trauma and the patient turned out to be your spouse, sibling, parent or child? Would you have a problem with it then? Bottom line is that doing something like that is not professional. --------------------------------- Food fight? Enjoy some healthy debate in the Yahoo! Answers Food & Drink Q & A. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 30, 2007 Report Share Posted March 30, 2007 I agree with those who have called this " Code of Silence " garbage...because it is and it is time, if we are going to cry about being a profession, to move past it. True professionals do the right thing EVERY time, not just when they can't " fix it " themselves. Here is a few other examples to apply the " what happens on the truck stays on the truck " philosophy... Your partner tells you he is really depressed and contemplating suicide...you talk to him and he promises to not do anything without talking to you first....what happens on the truck stays on the truck. Your partner tells you he came to work still under the influence of alcohol and marijuana last week, Sunday....by the time the first call came in at 1400, he was alright. You talk to him and he tells you it was a one time occurrence, stupid, and it will not happen again. Y'all have been working together for 3 years and he promises it was a one time thing...you believe him (even though you couldn't tell that Sunday that he was under the influence) so...what happens on the truck stays on the truck. You are working a code and your patient has been in asystole for 15 minutes. You are calling medical control for permission to cease efforts and they advise to give 1 more Epi, circulate for 5 minutes and call the code. You do so and there is no change...so you stop and begin cleaning up. Your partner who was giving meds looks at you scared and holds up a 2G syringe of Lidocaine that he accidentally pushed instead of the last Epi....what a stupid error...but it was just a one time error, the patient was dead....so...what happens on the truck stays on the truck. You walk in the dorm room at station and as you do, your partner hastily shuts down the Internet Explorer but as he does, you see several scantily clad females (okay...scantily = NONE) in various unique poses...you give him crap...didn't he read all the articles about this just a couple of weeks ago....he says yeah and tells you he won't do it again...as he gets up to go to the bathroom, you notice he is using the computer BUT it is still logged onto your credentials from before that last call....what happens on the truck stays on the truck. Face it...we are all professionals and we can never tell when actions by our partners will be damaging to them, patients, customers, stakeholders, our organization or YOU. When things are being done wrong, sure, confront your partner, but report it none the same. (and not to the texasems-l email list but to your supervisor/boss) Many many many times things are bigger and broader than you could possibly imagine and when they blow up...collateral damage can be far reaching...reporting early may give the bomb squad time to react and diffuse before the explosion. Dudley Re: Question???? There are two sides to this issue, like any (okay, maybe three-ten sides). Here's how I boil it down: Professional courtesy involves me " cutting you a break " just as much as it involves you being courteous enough not to do whatever it was that you now hope I'll " cut you a break " for. While there shouldn't be a culture of silence, EMS must foster a community of teamwork and trust, and usually do so with people who have no military experience to build on - and have a diminished view of team vs. self. I'm not advocating protecting someone who's intentionally screwing up. I'm advocating not throwing someone to the wolves without having all the facts, and without going to them first to see that a) you understand what's going on and they understand what's going on in the same terms you do. If I can resolve a problem with my partner then " what happens on the truck stays on the truck. " If I can't resolve it after attempting to work with my partner about it, then it's at least in part due to something my partner did/refused to do when I approached them - and that's on both of us, not just me or just him. Mike > > >>The OP shouldn't even be considering that, and Rick hits the > nail on the head. Stepping > up and causing a problem isn't going to save anyone from any harm - it's > going to make the situation bigger and worse... and put him on the outside > with every medic that knows what he did.<< > > No Mike, he misses the nail head by several feet. I'll agree with you that > the original poster needs to address this issue with the partner FIRST, > before asking advice in a public forum about how to turn this guy in. > Tattling on your partner, without knowing all the facts, is just > chickenshit. > > But Rick's reply was a blanket statement implying a code of silence in > EMS. I call bullshit on that one. Everyone keeps their mouth shut as long as > no one is hurt or killed? What kind of crap is that, and how do you quantify > " hurt? " > > Is it physical, emotional, or mental damage? Does a breach of privacy > qualify as harm? You bet it does. > > And if the organization this person belongs to would ostracize someone for > blowing the whistle on inappropriate behavior, then the culture of the > organization is rotten, not the original poster. > > -- > Grayson, CCEMT-P, etc. > MEDIC Training Solutions > http://www.medictrainingsolutions.com/ > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 31, 2007 Report Share Posted March 31, 2007 Thanks Dudley. ************************************** See what's free at http://www.aol.com. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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