Guest guest Posted January 19, 2007 Report Share Posted January 19, 2007 HI E. I like your theory. I actually did better with more T4F as well. This was years ago when first diagnosed. Then I added T3 to try to get warm and lose weight. I got warm. Then I switched to armour cuz I heard natural is better. I gained weight and got cold I added in some levoxyl but am still cold. Not gaining but not losing. My t4f has been just inside low range and t3F at highest end of range. What to do..... I feel I need more straight t4..... Sue Judy; I can't be sure about the weight thing with the t4 as opposed to the Armour, EXCEPT...I can give you a pattern I've noticed. It could be wrong..just trying to observe...and take notes. DID your t4 while on Armour ever reach the same place in the labs.....the t4free? While everyone will tell you that t3 will make you lose weight..I beleive this is a little flawed as an absolute. I think if your t4 is up high enough....then you get a smoother ride out of whatever t3 you are taking or not taking...because it has a more flexible set of jobs in the system. If its not there..then it can't be so fluid a solution for you when you hit all those changes that you go through every day. WHEN its lower...there is less t4 to port over to the more active hormones in the set. LESS active hormones..makes your metabolism slow down. One day...we will find out that t4 has more use in the body that the role some want to relegate it to as merely a " pro-hormone:...perhaps. I boosted my t4 again recently...and I feel that my wieght drop is due to the changing of the protocol around. More t4 pulls the heavy load...and less perky t3 that get to pick up the slack. Still fooling with the ratio...but I think I'm getting closer!! AAAARRRG!!! ~E:) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 19, 2007 Report Share Posted January 19, 2007 Sue: I think you just got to keep tweaking in that direction.. That is all you can do. ITS a lot of hard work...but I think it will be worth it in the end.. I can tell you this...when I get my T4 reading back..it will be over range. ~E:) --- JustYourTypeDTP justyourtypedtp@...> wrote: > HI E. > > I like your theory. > I actually did better with more T4F as well. This > was years ago when first > diagnosed. > Then I added T3 to try to get warm and lose weight. > I got warm. > Then I switched to armour cuz I heard natural is > better. > I gained weight and got cold > I added in some levoxyl but am still cold. Not > gaining but not losing. > My t4f has been just inside low range and t3F at > highest end of range. > What to do..... I feel I need more straight t4..... > > Sue > > On 1/18/07 8:16 PM, " E Gillespie " > lyongillespie@...> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > Judy; > > > > I can't be sure about the weight thing with the t4 > as > > opposed to the Armour, EXCEPT...I can give you a > > pattern I've noticed. > > > > It could be wrong..just trying to observe...and > take > > notes. > > > > DID your t4 while on Armour ever reach the same > place > > in the labs.....the t4free? > > > > While everyone will tell you that t3 will make you > > lose weight..I beleive this is a little flawed as > an > > absolute. > > > > I think if your t4 is up high enough....then you > get > > a smoother ride out of whatever t3 you are taking > or > > not taking...because it has a more flexible set of > > jobs in the system. If its not there..then it > can't > > be so fluid a solution for you when you hit all > those > > changes that you go through every day. > > > > WHEN its lower...there is less t4 to port over to > the > > more active hormones in the set. LESS active > > hormones..makes your metabolism slow down. > > > > One day...we will find out that t4 has more use in > the > > body that the role some want to relegate it to as > > merely a " pro-hormone:...perhaps. > > > > I boosted my t4 again recently...and I feel that > my > > wieght drop is due to the changing of the protocol > > around. More t4 pulls the heavy load...and less > perky > > t3 that get to pick up the slack. > > > > Still fooling with the ratio...but I think I'm > getting > > closer!! AAAARRRG!!! > > > > ~E:) > > > > > > > > > > > > > TOTAL-Thyroidectomy 26 months post-op. ________________________________________________________________________________\ ____ Need Mail bonding? Go to the Yahoo! Mail Q&A for great tips from Yahoo! Answers users. http://answers.yahoo.com/dir/?link=list&sid=396546091 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 19, 2007 Report Share Posted January 19, 2007 My labs have gotten increasingly worse since I left the Levo bandwagon. My labs on straight Levo were TSH 1.18, T4 12 at top of range and T3 midrange. All totals. Since the Armour and the combos, my T4 has dropped to 8.8 and my T3 is below range. I probably just need an increase in both, but I can't tolerate the increases. I like to be warm, but not sweaty and even when I achieved that, I still couldn't lose weight. I'm going to be in trouble with my doc, but I'm going to try the 100mcg Levo with just a touch of Armour for a month to see what happens. I'll let y'all know if it makes a difference. Then I'll have to switch back 6 weeks before I see her again to be on what she wants. That way I'll see and document properly how I feel and how my body acts on both. If I like the Levo better, I'll ask to switch again. I'm at a point where I'm tired of playing with it. It's been over 6 months and my labs just get worse, but the worst part is going up and down all day. I don't want to 'feel' my thyroid meds going into my system. Slow and steady wins the race... JudyP I actually did better with more T4F as well. This was years ago when first diagnosed. Then I added T3 to try to get warm and lose weight.I got warm. Then I switched to armour cuz I heard natural is better. I gained weight and got cold Food fight? Enjoy some healthy debatein the Yahoo! Answers Food Drink Q&A. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 19, 2007 Report Share Posted January 19, 2007 What are you taking now....and what were the labs that when with that dose...and how did you feel? IT sounds to me...like your t4 just wasn't high enough. You can't feel good without it...and if its low...you will FEEL the t3 bouncing your around. I'm only guessing from what I think you are saying... Anyone know how to kill two dogs? The rumbling...never ends. I feel like I'm in a thunderstorm.... YAY..there goes the door again. I guess we have 198 more slams to go before 2 am rolls around. WISH...me luck. ~E:) --- Judy P ygroupsjp@...> wrote: > My labs have gotten increasingly worse since I left > the Levo bandwagon. My labs on straight Levo were > TSH 1.18, T4 12 at top of range and T3 midrange. > All totals. Since the Armour and the combos, my T4 > has dropped to 8.8 and my T3 is below range. I > probably just need an increase in both, but I can't > tolerate the increases. I like to be warm, but not > sweaty and even when I achieved that, I still > couldn't lose weight. I'm going to be in trouble > with my doc, but I'm going to try the 100mcg Levo > with just a touch of Armour for a month to see what > happens. I'll let y'all know if it makes a > difference. Then I'll have to switch back 6 weeks > before I see her again to be on what she wants. > That way I'll see and document properly how I feel > and how my body acts on both. If I like the Levo > better, I'll ask to switch again. I'm at a point > where I'm tired of playing with it. It's been over > 6 months and my labs just get worse, but the worst > part is going up and down all day. > I don't want to 'feel' my thyroid meds going into > my system. Slow and steady wins the race... JudyP > > --------------------------------- > > I actually did better with more T4F as well. This > was years ago when first diagnosed. Then I added T3 > to try to get warm and lose weight. > I got warm. Then I switched to armour cuz I heard > natural is better. I gained weight and got cold > > > > --------------------------------- > Food fight? Enjoy some healthy debate > in the Yahoo! Answers Food & Drink Q&A. TOTAL-Thyroidectomy 26 months post-op. ________________________________________________________________________________\ ____ Bored stiff? Loosen up... Download and play hundreds of games for free on Yahoo! Games. http://games.yahoo.com/games/front Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 19, 2007 Report Share Posted January 19, 2007 Well, up when the labs were taken, I was taking 50mcg T4 and 45mg Armour. Labs were great TSH, midrange T4 and low T3, both totals. Now shhhh, I'm taking 100mcg Levo and 30mg Armour for a few days to see what that does for me. I know I shouldn't be playing with it, but I've been constipated, dry hair, dry skin, weight plateau etc. etc. I'll report back in a week and tell y'all what's happening then. JudyP – PollyannaLand, USA What are you taking now....and what were the labs that when with that dose...and how did you feel? Sucker-punch spam with award-winning protection. Try the free Yahoo! Mail Beta. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 19, 2007 Report Share Posted January 19, 2007 Hey Judy: I'm not one to GIVE outright advice..but to me, you never did get the t4 up high enough after going the ARmour route...or the ARmour/combo route. I just have seen too many times that people think because their t4 is midrange..its in solid territory. Those same folks...often are hyposymptomatic. What is worse..is the folks taking all armour trying to claw their way up to five grains because they STILL don't feel good...and think one more grain will be the answer. If you see thier labs...the t3 is sticking way out like some kind of bridge to nowhere and their t4 is hanging around the mid mark... I think in a few days..with what you just did there..you will start to feel better...and then maybe worse. I should think that this will be too much....t4 with that Armour. I only sweated a lot...when I was taking much more Armour. No sweating now. I'm nearly perfect with my body temp...BP...the whole thing. MUCH more normal now. I'm just dealing with aches and pains..and some lightheaded stuff still..but it all seems better. One can only have so much hormone before they tip over and then they don't feel so good. I'm thinking if you had wanted to titrate it a bit...you may have tried 60 0r 70 mcg of synthetic with 45..armour..which I would have liked to see stay put while you messed with ONLY the T4 side. You see? I myself have had to finagle things a bit. I'm doing like 70 mcgs of sythetic with 45 mgs of Armour. I won't be testing again for a few weeks..so I have a little wiggle room to make sure it all settles okay. THE t4...I'v had cooking stable now for 35 days..so that is a good start..and the Armour...was up higher..so we aren't going to wait for that to build. ITS up to you..and I promise I won't tell nobody. ~E:) --- Judy P ygroupsjp@...> wrote: > Well, up when the labs were taken, I was taking > 50mcg T4 and 45mg Armour. Labs were great TSH, > midrange T4 and low T3, both totals. > > Now shhhh, I'm taking 100mcg Levo and 30mg Armour > for a few days to see what that does for me. I know > I shouldn't be playing with it, but I've been > constipated, dry hair, dry skin, weight plateau etc. > etc. I'll report back in a week and tell y'all > what's happening then. > JudyP – PollyannaLand, USA > > > --------------------------------- > > What are you taking now....and what were the labs > that when with that dose...and how did you feel? > > > > > > > > > --------------------------------- > Sucker-punch spam with award-winning protection. > Try the free Yahoo! Mail Beta. TOTAL-Thyroidectomy 26 months post-op. ________________________________________________________________________________\ ____ Don't pick lemons. See all the new 2007 cars at Yahoo! Autos. http://autos.yahoo.com/new_cars.html Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 19, 2007 Report Share Posted January 19, 2007 I was thinking the same thing E. I wish it didn't take 6 weeks to be able to really check on each dose. Before all this started, I was taking 100mcg Eltroxin (Levothyroxine) for decades. My levo labs were: TSH, 1.185 , (.350-5.50) Total T4, 11.5 , (4.5-12) T4 Free (Direct) , 1.50 , (0.61-1.76) Total T3, 102 , (85-205) Those labs are looking pretty good to me now! I would assume that if I went back to 100mcg Levo, my new labs would be similar. Maybe a touch of cytomel would have brought them up to stellar. So what do you think you would have done if you started out with these labs with 100mcg Levo? I'm thinking if you had wanted to titrate it a bit...you may have tried 60 0r 70 mcg of synthetic with 45..armour..which I would have liked to see stayput while you messed with ONLY the T4 side. You see? Want to start your own business? Learn how on Yahoo! Small Business. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 19, 2007 Report Share Posted January 19, 2007 Judy: The new more knoweldgeable me ...doesn't like to toss out t4..unless it is to make room to shore up the t3 AS A first option. I don't like big overhauls since the body doesn't care for them anyway. NUMBER one...because the t4 drains out of the tissues FAST...and takes forever to rebuild. WHO wants to be sick for months..just to try out some ARMOUR???? In this way...one should work the problem from the t4 OUT...meaning set the t4 ...then build the t3 up to your highest set point. STILL not good?... Then do it again..tweaking the t4 down a bit ..to make room. It doesn't matter whether you do it with Cytomel or Armour...but one does have to understand that t3 will build pretty fast... and that the t4 in Armour...YES..its there, but its not exactly like the t4 in the straight pill regardless of all those cute tables say out there, so you don't have to be OVERLY ready to count it AS t4..the way we think of synthetic t4... You see? In this way..you should feel well in a couple months....UNLESS..something is already pretty broken. You see? In your case...Judy..I would have peeled back to maybe 90 mcgs..and added in 15 mgs of Armour..for fun. Then you could tweak from there.... THIS would have told you a lot about about how your system deals..without makeing a many month commitment. Just a toe in the water.. ~E:) --- Judy P ygroupsjp@...> wrote: > I was thinking the same thing E. I wish it didn't > take 6 weeks to be able to really check on each > dose. Before all this started, I was taking 100mcg > Eltroxin (Levothyroxine) for decades. > > My levo labs were: > > > TSH, 1.185 , (.350-5.50) > > Total T4, 11.5 , (4.5-12) > > T4 Free (Direct) , 1.50 , (0.61-1.76) > > Total T3, 102 , (85-205) > > > Those labs are looking pretty good to me now! I > would assume that if I went back to 100mcg Levo, my > new labs would be similar. Maybe a touch of cytomel > would have brought them up to stellar. > > So what do you think you would have done if you > started out with these labs with 100mcg Levo? > > --------------------------------- > > I'm thinking if you had wanted to titrate it a > bit...you may have tried 60 0r 70 mcg of synthetic > with 45..armour..which I would have liked to see > stay > put while you messed with ONLY the T4 side. You see? > > > > --------------------------------- > Want to start your own business? Learn how on Yahoo! > Small Business. TOTAL-Thyroidectomy 26 months post-op. ________________________________________________________________________________\ ____ Finding fabulous fares is fun. Let Yahoo! FareChase search your favorite travel sites to find flight and hotel bargains. http://farechase.yahoo.com/promo-generic-14795097 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 19, 2007 Report Share Posted January 19, 2007 So true E.... But who knew Armour would be such a letdown? Tomorrow I am going back to my 100 levo and 20 cytomel in three doses — I felt SO much better. I can always do 10 cyto and a touch of armour –but not til I get stabilized back on the synthetics. sue NUMBER one...because the t4 drains out of the tissues FAST...and takes forever to rebuild. WHO wants to be sick for months..just to try out some ARMOUR???? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 19, 2007 Report Share Posted January 19, 2007 Well Sue, I can never be sure what exactly will happen to anyone...but I have seen lots of folks on another board jump ship to the land of Armour and have a lot of problems they didn't expect. I know that I was never able to take full armour so I wanted to keep an eye on what was causing all the problems for all these people. That's when I noticed what I thought was a pattern...and my research pretty much validated my suspicions. I forget what you were taking last...but we concluded that no matter what you did, if there wasn't enough t4..you weren't gonna be happy. I have jacked my t4 up to 71 mcgs...so that out to tell you..how heavy a percentage that will be in the end compared to the t3..if I'm right. ~E:) --- JustYourTypeDTP justyourtypedtp@...> wrote: > So true E.... But who knew Armour would be such a > letdown? > Tomorrow I am going back to my 100 levo and 20 > cytomel in three doses ‹ I > felt SO much better. > I can always do 10 cyto and a touch of armour but > not til I get stabilized > back on the synthetics. > sue > > > On 1/19/07 3:31 PM, " E Gillespie " > lyongillespie@...> wrote: > > > NUMBER one...because the t4 drains out of the > tissues > > FAST...and takes forever to rebuild. WHO wants to > be > > sick for months..just to try out some ARMOUR???? > > > > TOTAL-Thyroidectomy 26 months post-op. ________________________________________________________________________________\ ____ Bored stiff? Loosen up... Download and play hundreds of games for free on Yahoo! Games. http://games.yahoo.com/games/front Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 19, 2007 Report Share Posted January 19, 2007 Are you going to call your doctor or just do it yourself. I didn't have a very good appointment this week and I'm afraid to call her. I'll run out at some point and I'll have to see her, but I want to test it out a few weeks first. I'm not due to see her again for 3 months... Judy But who knew Armour would be such a letdown?Tomorrow I am going back to my 100 levo and 20 cytomel in three doses — I felt SO much better. Never miss an email again!Yahoo! Toolbar alerts you the instant new Mail arrives. Check it out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 19, 2007 Report Share Posted January 19, 2007 > > I was thinking the same thing E. I wish it didn't take 6 weeks to be able to really check on each dose. Before all this started, I was taking 100mcg Eltroxin (Levothyroxine) for decades. > > My levo labs were: > > > TSH, 1.185 , (.350-5.50) > > Total T4, 11.5 , (4.5-12) > > T4 Free (Direct) , 1.50 , (0.61-1.76) > > Total T3, 102 , (85-205) > > > Those labs are looking pretty good to me now! I would assume that if I went back to 100mcg Levo, my new labs would be similar. Maybe a touch of cytomel would have brought them up to stellar. > > So what do you think you would have done if you started out with these labs with 100mcg Levo? > > --------------------------------- > > I'm thinking if you had wanted to titrate it a bit...you may have tried 60 0r 70 mcg of synthetic with 45..armour..which I would have liked to see stay > put while you messed with ONLY the T4 side. You see? > > Just remember that Armour equals 38mcg of T4 and 9mg of T3 per grain or 60mg tablet.. So if you are taking 100mcg of T4 and 30 mg of Armour you are taking 119mcg of T4 and 4.5 mcg of T3.. If you do 75 mcg of T4 and 45 mg of T3 then you are taking 103.5 of T4 and 6.75 mg of T3.. Considering you are already taking 45 of Armour and 50 of T4..not to give advice on meds but I would think keeping with the Armour and splitting a 50mcg pill in half and taking 75 mcg of T4 and actually holding it until you see the doc and then coming clean after labs might be your better option, mind you so would getting your Free's tested.. Kats3boys Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 20, 2007 Report Share Posted January 20, 2007 Hi E. I was on 90 mg armour and 44 levoxyl this past couple of weeks. I am going to 100 levo and 20 cyto — I really like the straight t3 “punch” I get and it kept me warm. Sue Well Sue, I can never be sure what exactly will happen to anyone...but I have seen lots of folks on another board jump ship to the land of Armour and have a lot of problems they didn't expect. I know that I was never able to take full armour so I wanted to keep an eye on what was causing all the problems for all these people. That's when I noticed what I thought was a pattern...and my research pretty much validated my suspicions. I forget what you were taking last...but we concluded that no matter what you did, if there wasn't enough t4..you weren't gonna be happy. I have jacked my t4 up to 71 mcgs...so that out to tell you..how heavy a percentage that will be in the end compared to the t3..if I'm right. ~E:) --- JustYourTypeDTP <justyourtypedtp@... <mailto:justyourtypedtp%40earthlink.net> > wrote: > So true E.... But who knew Armour would be such a > letdown? > Tomorrow I am going back to my 100 levo and 20 > cytomel in three doses — I > felt SO much better. > I can always do 10 cyto and a touch of armour –but > not til I get stabilized > back on the synthetics. > sue > > > On 1/19/07 3:31 PM, " E Gillespie " > <lyongillespie@... <mailto:lyongillespie%40yahoo.com> > wrote: > > > NUMBER one...because the t4 drains out of the > tissues > > FAST...and takes forever to rebuild. WHO wants to > be > > sick for months..just to try out some ARMOUR???? > > > > TOTAL-Thyroidectomy 26 months post-op. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 20, 2007 Report Share Posted January 20, 2007 I am just going to do it myself. I don’t see her for 2 months. My last instructions were no med changes til she sees me but I can’t take this any longer. My joints are aching and I was freezing. Today I am warm and toasty after my morning dose of levo/ctyomel. sue Are you going to call your doctor or just do it yourself. I didn't have a very good appointment this week and I'm afraid to call her. I'll run out at some point and I'll have to see her, but I want to test it out a few weeks first. I'm not due to see her again for 3 months... Judy But who knew Armour would be such a letdown? Tomorrow I am going back to my 100 levo and 20 cytomel in three doses ˜ I felt SO much better. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 20, 2007 Report Share Posted January 20, 2007 E~Are you able to talk with the neighbors that make all the noise?If so, maybe try to explain how it sounds in your house. Bring some weather stripping over and offer to help them apply it to the inside of the door.If nothing else, it may muffle it a little. From this end it probably sounds easier said than done.Just know I feel for you. Best of luck.JackieYAY..there goes the door again. I guess we have 198more slams to go before 2 am rolls around. WISH...meluck.~E:) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 20, 2007 Report Share Posted January 20, 2007 I feel like such a dunce. I still don't understand the whole T-3 and T-4 thing.I know one helps the other convert, but when i see the e-mails that talk about them, I am like a deer in headlights. Does anyone have a "child-like" analogy to explain this to me?Thanks, JackieJudy:The new more knoweldgeable me ...doesn't like to tossout t4..unless it is to make room to shore up the t3 AS A first option.I don't like big overhauls since the body doesn't carefor them anyway.NUMBER one...because the t4 drains out of the tissuesFAST...and takes forever to rebuild. WHO wants to besick for months..just to try out some ARMOUR????In this way...one should work the problem from the t4OUT...meaning set the t4 ...then build the t3 up toyour highest set point. STILL not good?... Then do itagain..tweaking the t4 down a bit ..to make room.It doesn't matter whether you do it with Cytomel orArmour...but one does have to understand that t3 willbuild pretty fast... and that the t4 inArmour...YES..its there, but its not exactly like thet4 in the straight pill regardless of all those cutetables say out there, so you don't have to be OVERLYready to count it AS t4..the way we think of synthetict4... You see? In this way..you should feel well in a couplemonths....UNLESS..something is already pretty broken. You see?In your case...Judy..I would have peeled back to maybe90 mcgs..and added in 15 mgs of Armour..for fun.Then you could tweak from there....THIS would have told you a lot about about how yoursystem deals..without makeing a many month commitment.Just a toe in the water.. ~E:). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 21, 2007 Report Share Posted January 21, 2007 how's this... t4 is like the hand that touches the light switch and the t3 is the movement to turn the light on.... you can't do one without the other. does that work?? . Re: eeeeeeeeeee t4 I feel like such a dunce. I still don't understand the whole T-3 and T-4 thing. I know one helps the other convert, but when i see the e-mails that talk about them, I am like a deer in headlights. Does anyone have a "child-like" analogy to explain this to me? Thanks, Jackie Judy:The new more knoweldgeable me ...doesn't like to tossout t4..unless it is to make room to shore up the t3 AS A first option.I don't like big overhauls since the body doesn't carefor them anyway.NUMBER one...because the t4 drains out of the tissuesFAST...and takes forever to rebuild. WHO wants to besick for months..just to try out some ARMOUR????In this way...one should work the problem from the t4OUT...meaning set the t4 ...then build the t3 up toyour highest set point. STILL not good?... Then do itagain..tweaking the t4 down a bit ..to make room.It doesn't matter whether you do it with Cytomel orArmour...but one does have to understand that t3 willbuild pretty fast... and that the t4 inArmour...YES..its there, but its not exactly like thet4 in the straight pill regardless of all those cutetables say out there, so you don't have to be OVERLYready to count it AS t4..the way we think of synthetict4... You see? In this way..you should feel well in a couplemonths....UNLESS..something is already pretty broken. You see?In your case...Judy..I would have peeled back to maybe90 mcgs..and added in 15 mgs of Armour..for fun.Then you could tweak from there....THIS would have told you a lot about about how yoursystem deals..without makeing a many month commitment.Just a toe in the water.. ~E:) .. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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