Guest guest Posted March 12, 2007 Report Share Posted March 12, 2007 In a message dated 3/12/2007 1:27:54 P.M. Central Daylight Time, petsardlj@... writes: If we are comparing nursing with our level then the 15-17$ range is the starting point that I see in hospitals here in the panhandle. High level seems to be somewhere around 24-28$ per hour. Being a paramedic and being a registered nurse can't be compared. They are completely two different ballparks. I have spent the last two years in a paramedic-RN transition (an actually classroom setting, not the online stuff). The knowledge which I have learned and gained in nursing school far exceeds what I ever learned in paramedic school. First, we'll start off with education. In paramedic school, I didn't have to have any classes prior to my paramedic program with the exception of EMT-B class. In the RN program, I had to have English, Math, A & P I, A & P 2, Microbiology, Nutrition, advanced pharmacology, adult psy, child psy, and Nursing based assessment. I've never seen any EMS program require any classes taken prior to enrollment. In EMS, we are taught to take care of patient's in the first hour or so of there emergency. We have to know what to do, when to do it, how much to do, and hopefully how to fix a screw up if one were to happen. Nurses have to know the same thing. But nurses also have to know all about labs, medications, diagnostic testing, and patient teaching. Nurses have to know what is going to happen to the patient several days down the road if they give a certain medication stat. Nurses must know how nutritional needs directly effect a patient's condition and there outcome. Now remember, now all nurses are good nurses,and the same goes for paramedics. Both paramedicine and nursing has there place for each. But when comparing salaries, the two fields don't compare. One of the biggest differences which I have seen besides the education stand point is the organization which exist in nursing. For example, the Emergency Nurses Association is extremely active on the national level, state level, and also the local level. I've have yet to see any EMS organization that as many members and is as active as this one organization is. In order to be able to compare EMS to nursing, we first must raise our standards. The first standard being education. Then, we must come together as a group (EMSAT), and become active in our community. Once we do these two little things, I believe EMS will be one step further to being able to be compared to nursing. <BR><BR><BR>**************************************<BR> AOL now offers free email to everyone. Find out more about what's free from AOL at http://www.aol.com. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 12, 2007 Report Share Posted March 12, 2007 In a message dated 3/12/2007 4:21:36 P.M. Central Daylight Time, txguy001@... writes: In order to be able to compare EMS to nursing, we first must raise our standards. The first standard being education. Then, we must come together as a group (EMSAT), and become active in our community. Once we do these two little things, I believe EMS will be one step further to being able to be compared to nursing. Overall I agree but I think rather then a one then two step process it's a concurrent process. Louis N. Molino, Sr., CET FF/NREMT-B/FSI/EMSI Freelance Consultant/Trainer/Author/Journalist/Fire Protection Consultant LNMolino@... (Cell Phone) (IFW/TFW/FSS Office) (IFW/TFW/FSS Fax) " A Texan with a Jersey Attitude " " Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people " Eleanor Roosevelt - US diplomat & reformer (1884 - 1962) The comments contained in this E-mail are the opinions of the author and the author alone. I in no way ever intend to speak for any person or organization that I am in any way whatsoever involved or associated with unless I specifically state that I am doing so. Further this E-mail is intended only for its stated recipient and may contain private and or confidential materials retransmission is strictly prohibited unless placed in the public domain by the original author. <BR><BR><BR>**************************************<BR> AOL now offers free email to everyone. Find out more about what's free from AOL at http://www.aol.com. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 12, 2007 Report Share Posted March 12, 2007 Pardon the first e-mail. I should have made a new subject as I just did. Question: What is felt as sufficient remuneration for the education and conditions in which we work? I have seen that 15-17$ per hour is not high enough so where is the starting level and what would be the highest level? I think we may have done this before but it can be good to fish in the same spot to see if you can catch anything new. If we are comparing nursing with our level then the 15-17$ range is the starting point that I see in hospitals here in the panhandle. High level seems to be somewhere around 24-28$ per hour. Of course management are somewhere around 40 -50$ per hour and better. Danny L. Owner/NREMT-P PETSAR INC. (Panhandle Emergency Training Services And Response) Office Fax Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 12, 2007 Report Share Posted March 12, 2007 , There are associate degree paramedic programs that require virtually the same courses that your RN program did. Of course, the standards between courses are vast in Texas, and they are going to become less demanding, not more, as paramedicine is downgraded. The industry has not and will not support improved education standards for paramedics. Congratulations on going to get your RN. Gene > > > In a message dated 3/12/2007 1:27:54 P.M. Central Daylight Time, > petsardlj@sbcglobalpets writes: > > If we are comparing nursing with our level then the 15-17$ range is the > starting point that I see in hospitals here in the panhandle. High level > seems to > be somewhere around 24-28$ per hour. > > Being a paramedic and being a registered nurse can't be compared. They are > completely two different ballparks. > > I have spent the last two years in a paramedic-RN transition (an actually > classroom setting, not the online stuff). The knowledge which I have learned > and gained in nursing school far exceeds what I ever learned in paramedic > school. > > First, we'll start off with education. In paramedic school, I didn't have > to have any classes prior to my paramedic program with the exception of > EMT-B > class. In the RN program, I had to have English, Math, A & P I, A & P 2, > Microbiology, Nutrition, advanced pharmacology, adult psy, child psy, and > Nursing > based assessment. I've never seen any EMS program require any classes taken > prior to enrollment. > > In EMS, we are taught to take care of patient's in the first hour or so of > there emergency. We have to know what to do, when to do it, how much to do, > and hopefully how to fix a screw up if one were to happen. > > Nurses have to know the same thing. But nurses also have to know all about > labs, medications, diagnostic testing, and patient teaching. Nurses have to > know what is going to happen to the patient several days down the road if > they give a certain medication stat. Nurses must know how nutritional needs > directly effect a patient's condition and there outcome. > > Now remember, now all nurses are good nurses,and the same goes for > paramedics. Both paramedicine and nursing has there place for each. But when > comparing salaries, the two fields don't compare. > > One of the biggest differences which I have seen besides the education stand > point is the organization which exist in nursing. For example, the > Emergency Nurses Association is extremely active on the national level, > state level, > and also the local level. I've have yet to see any EMS organization that as > many members and is as active as this one organization is. > > In order to be able to compare EMS to nursing, we first must raise our > standards. The first standard being education. Then, we must come together > as a > group (EMSAT), and become active in our community. Once we do these two > little things, I believe EMS will be one step further to being able to be > compared to nursing. > > > <BR><BR><BR><wbr>****<wbr>****<wbr>****<wbr>****<w<BR> AOL now offers free > email to everyone. Find out more about what's free from AOL at > http://www.aol.http > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 12, 2007 Report Share Posted March 12, 2007 Obviously if you did not have to take any english, A & P, or psychology, you were in a certificate program for your Paramedic training and not in a degree program. >In a message dated 3/12/2007 1:27:54 P.M. Central Daylight Time, > >petsardlj@... writes: > > > >If we are comparing nursing with our level then the 15-17$ range is the > >starting point that I see in hospitals here in the panhandle. High level seems to > >be somewhere around 24-28$ per hour. > > > >Being a paramedic and being a registered nurse can't be compared. They are > >completely two different ballparks. > > > >I have spent the last two years in a paramedic-RN transition (an actually > >classroom setting, not the online stuff). The knowledge which I have learned > >and gained in nursing school far exceeds what I ever learned in paramedic > >school. > > > >First, we'll start off with education. In paramedic school, I didn't have > >to have any classes prior to my paramedic program with the exception of EMT-B > >class. In the RN program, I had to have English, Math, A & P I, A & P 2, > >Microbiology, Nutrition, advanced pharmacology, adult psy, child psy, and Nursing > >based assessment. I've never seen any EMS program require any classes taken > >prior to enrollment. > > > >In EMS, we are taught to take care of patient's in the first hour or so of > >there emergency. We have to know what to do, when to do it, how much to do, > >and hopefully how to fix a screw up if one were to happen. > > > >Nurses have to know the same thing. But nurses also have to know all about > >labs, medications, diagnostic testing, and patient teaching. Nurses have to > >know what is going to happen to the patient several days down the road if > >they give a certain medication stat. Nurses must know how nutritional needs > >directly effect a patient's condition and there outcome. > > > >Now remember, now all nurses are good nurses,and the same goes for > >paramedics. Both paramedicine and nursing has there place for each. But when > >comparing salaries, the two fields don't compare. > > > >One of the biggest differences which I have seen besides the education stand > >point is the organization which exist in nursing. For example, the > >Emergency Nurses Association is extremely active on the national level, state level, > >and also the local level. I've have yet to see any EMS organization that as > >many members and is as active as this one organization is. > > > >In order to be able to compare EMS to nursing, we first must raise our > >standards. The first standard being education. Then, we must come together as a > >group (EMSAT), and become active in our community. Once we do these two > >little things, I believe EMS will be one step further to being able to be > >compared to nursing. > > > > > ><BR><BR><BR>**************************************<BR> AOL now offers free > >email to everyone. Find out more about what's free from AOL at > >http://www.aol.com. > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 13, 2007 Report Share Posted March 13, 2007 I agree that Paramedics are underpaid. When compared to Nursing it is almost criminal. I think the difference is that Nurses have good representation where we (as paramedics) do not. Another factor to consider is the " volunteer factor " . No industry can ever expect to advance in pay to any great length as long as there are people who will do the job for free. I know that there are places where volunteers are a necessity because of low budgets, but there are many examples of places that do not have any need for a volunteer program. (reference yearly operating budget of Cy-Fair VFD) What is the old saying... " why buy the cow when you can get the milk for free " ... On another note, there are Paramedic jobs that pay very well. Mine for example. Given, not all have a military background, but my industry is getting so thin that we are needing to pool from Civ services. So for all you Para's that feel you are world class, in shape and can think of your feet (even while bad people are shooting at you)...read on. I work 90 days on and get 30 days off. So that comes out to three months off a year. For every day I am at work (the three months) I am paid a day rate of $560 a day. Pay break down: $560x 30=$16,800 Rate at 3 months=$50,400 Rate @ 9 months= 151,200 10% job completion bonus =$15,120 (at end of contract) Total yearly pay plus bonus: $166,320 That is with three months off a year to fly anywhere in the world and live like a rock star. ...but I like to come home and volunteer... Feel free to contact me if you want more details. Ed Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 13, 2007 Report Share Posted March 13, 2007 Gene; Where is it that you see the downgrading of EMS, I see just the opposite. I can remember 10 years ago(or better) when the education was not as intense as it is now in programs across the state. I still have yet to see what pay scale should be given. Is the 15-17$ range low or median? The education, training and the job are in constant change. I do not see where the standards will become less demanding. Downgrade? I don't think so. wegandy1938@... wrote: , There are associate degree paramedic programs that require virtually the same courses that your RN program did. Of course, the standards between courses are vast in Texas, and they are going to become less demanding, not more, as paramedicine is downgraded. The industry has not and will not support improved education standards for paramedics. Congratulations on going to get your RN. Gene > > > In a message dated 3/12/2007 1:27:54 P.M. Central Daylight Time, > petsardlj@sbcglobalpets writes: > > If we are comparing nursing with our level then the 15-17$ range is the > starting point that I see in hospitals here in the panhandle. High level > seems to > be somewhere around 24-28$ per hour. > > Being a paramedic and being a registered nurse can't be compared. They are > completely two different ballparks. > > I have spent the last two years in a paramedic-RN transition (an actually > classroom setting, not the online stuff). The knowledge which I have learned > and gained in nursing school far exceeds what I ever learned in paramedic > school. > > First, we'll start off with education. In paramedic school, I didn't have > to have any classes prior to my paramedic program with the exception of > EMT-B > class. In the RN program, I had to have English, Math, A & P I, A & P 2, > Microbiology, Nutrition, advanced pharmacology, adult psy, child psy, and > Nursing > based assessment. I've never seen any EMS program require any classes taken > prior to enrollment. > > In EMS, we are taught to take care of patient's in the first hour or so of > there emergency. We have to know what to do, when to do it, how much to do, > and hopefully how to fix a screw up if one were to happen. > > Nurses have to know the same thing. But nurses also have to know all about > labs, medications, diagnostic testing, and patient teaching. Nurses have to > know what is going to happen to the patient several days down the road if > they give a certain medication stat. Nurses must know how nutritional needs > directly effect a patient's condition and there outcome. > > Now remember, now all nurses are good nurses,and the same goes for > paramedics. Both paramedicine and nursing has there place for each. But when > comparing salaries, the two fields don't compare. > > One of the biggest differences which I have seen besides the education stand > point is the organization which exist in nursing. For example, the > Emergency Nurses Association is extremely active on the national level, > state level, > and also the local level. I've have yet to see any EMS organization that as > many members and is as active as this one organization is. > > In order to be able to compare EMS to nursing, we first must raise our > standards. The first standard being education. Then, we must come together > as a > group (EMSAT), and become active in our community. Once we do these two > little things, I believe EMS will be one step further to being able to be > compared to nursing. > > > <BR><BR><BR><wbr>****<wbr>****<wbr>****<wbr>****<w<BR> AOL now offers free > email to everyone. Find out more about what's free from AOL at > http://www.aol.http > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 13, 2007 Report Share Posted March 13, 2007 You are correct. I took those classes on my own before an associate program was available. I took those classes to gain a better understanding of the patients I encounter. This is also why I believe these classes are needed in our Paramedicine programs today. wrote: Obviously if you did not have to take any english, A & P, or psychology, you were in a certificate program for your Paramedic training and not in a degree program. >In a message dated 3/12/2007 1:27:54 P.M. Central Daylight Time, > >petsardlj@... writes: > > > >If we are comparing nursing with our level then the 15-17$ range is the > >starting point that I see in hospitals here in the panhandle. High level seems to > >be somewhere around 24-28$ per hour. > > > >Being a paramedic and being a registered nurse can't be compared. They are > >completely two different ballparks. > > > >I have spent the last two years in a paramedic-RN transition (an actually > >classroom setting, not the online stuff). The knowledge which I have learned > >and gained in nursing school far exceeds what I ever learned in paramedic > >school. > > > >First, we'll start off with education. In paramedic school, I didn't have > >to have any classes prior to my paramedic program with the exception of EMT-B > >class. In the RN program, I had to have English, Math, A & P I, A & P 2, > >Microbiology, Nutrition, advanced pharmacology, adult psy, child psy, and Nursing > >based assessment. I've never seen any EMS program require any classes taken > >prior to enrollment. > > > >In EMS, we are taught to take care of patient's in the first hour or so of > >there emergency. We have to know what to do, when to do it, how much to do, > >and hopefully how to fix a screw up if one were to happen. > > > >Nurses have to know the same thing. But nurses also have to know all about > >labs, medications, diagnostic testing, and patient teaching. Nurses have to > >know what is going to happen to the patient several days down the road if > >they give a certain medication stat. Nurses must know how nutritional needs > >directly effect a patient's condition and there outcome. > > > >Now remember, now all nurses are good nurses,and the same goes for > >paramedics. Both paramedicine and nursing has there place for each. But when > >comparing salaries, the two fields don't compare. > > > >One of the biggest differences which I have seen besides the education stand > >point is the organization which exist in nursing. For example, the > >Emergency Nurses Association is extremely active on the national level, state level, > >and also the local level. I've have yet to see any EMS organization that as > >many members and is as active as this one organization is. > > > >In order to be able to compare EMS to nursing, we first must raise our > >standards. The first standard being education. Then, we must come together as a > >group (EMSAT), and become active in our community. Once we do these two > >little things, I believe EMS will be one step further to being able to be > >compared to nursing. > > > > > ><BR><BR><BR>**************************************<BR> AOL now offers free > >email to everyone. Find out more about what's free from AOL at > >http://www.aol.com. > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 13, 2007 Report Share Posted March 13, 2007 txguy001@... wrote: In a message dated 3/12/2007 1:27:54 P.M. Central Daylight Time, petsardlj@... writes: If we are comparing nursing with our level then the 15-17$ range is the starting point that I see in hospitals here in the panhandle. High level seems to be somewhere around 24-28$ per hour. Being a paramedic and being a registered nurse can't be compared. They are completely two different ballparks. >>>>>Then what is there that we can make a comparison to?<<<< I have spent the last two years in a paramedic-RN transition (an actually classroom setting, not the online stuff). The knowledge which I have learned and gained in nursing school far exceeds what I ever learned in paramedic school. First, we'll start off with education. In paramedic school, I didn't have to have any classes prior to my paramedic program with the exception of EMT-B class. In the RN program, I had to have English, Math, A & P I, A & P 2, Microbiology, Nutrition, advanced pharmacology, adult psy, child psy, and Nursing based assessment. I've never seen any EMS program require any classes taken prior to enrollment. >>>>>Then you have not seen the Associate Degree programs in many Texas colleges.<<<<<<<<< In EMS, we are taught to take care of patient's in the first hour or so of there emergency. We have to know what to do, when to do it, how much to do, and hopefully how to fix a screw up if one were to happen. Nurses have to know the same thing. But nurses also have to know all about labs, medications, diagnostic testing, and patient teaching. Nurses have to know what is going to happen to the patient several days down the road if they give a certain medication stat. Nurses must know how nutritional needs directly effect a patient's condition and there outcome. >>>>And we do not have to know this in EMS why?<<<<<<<<< Now remember, now all nurses are good nurses,and the same goes for paramedics. Both paramedicine and nursing has there place for each. But when comparing salaries, the two fields don't compare. One of the biggest differences which I have seen besides the education stand point is the organization which exist in nursing. For example, the Emergency Nurses Association is extremely active on the national level, state level, and also the local level. I've have yet to see any EMS organization that as many members and is as active as this one organization is. >>>>>This I will agree with.<<<<<<<<< In order to be able to compare EMS to nursing, we first must raise our standards. The first standard being education. Then, we must come together as a group (EMSAT), and become active in our community. Once we do these two little things, I believe EMS will be one step further to being able to be compared to nursing. <BR><BR><BR>**************************************<BR> Recent Activity 6 New Members 1 New Files Visit Your Group Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 14, 2007 Report Share Posted March 14, 2007 I understand the concept behind the associates degree program, but how many paramedics actually have an associates degree? How many college programs push associate degree programs? I have done a lot of research on UTSA-HHC bach. degree in EMS and they seem to have very good program. They are one of the few in the state that offer a four year degree. Why haven't any other college or universities began to offer a four year degree in EMS? <BR><BR><BR>**************************************<BR> AOL now offers free email to everyone. Find out more about what's free from AOL at http://www.aol.com. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 14, 2007 Report Share Posted March 14, 2007 > I still have yet to see what pay scale should be given. Is the 15-17$ range low or median? If you are trying to figure out what you will have to pay to stay fully staffed then look at your competition. Wages vary according to the local labor market. Employers are going to pay their employees according to how hard it is to replace them. Increased education or licensing standards only serves to increase the scarcity of availible applicants. This is what the nurses have done. The have structured their education programs to limit the number of new nurses that can be trained. They designate certain jobs and procedures as " nursing only " , they push for patient-to-staff ratio laws, they make rules that say RN's can't delegate to " non-licensed personel " . All of these things increase nurse scarcity by controlling the number of nurses that enter the workforce, increasing the number of nurses needed to do the same job and removing the threat of substitutes. Consequently the wages paid to nurses have gone up. This pattern can be seen in other professions as well. Wages are just like any other kind of price. They are based on scarcity and the ability to find a substitute. Jeff Shade Tree Economist/Paramedic Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 14, 2007 Report Share Posted March 14, 2007 The short answer is money. There are not enough students to make cost effective to offer a four year degree. Bob txguy001@... wrote: > > I understand the concept behind the associates degree program, but how > many > paramedics actually have an associates degree? How many college programs > push associate degree programs? > > I have done a lot of research on UTSA-HHC bach. degree in EMS and they > seem > to have very good program. They are one of the few in the state that > offer a > four year degree. Why haven't any other college or universities began to > offer a four year degree in EMS? > > > <BR><BR><BR>**************************************<BR> AOL now offers > free > email to everyone. Find out more about what's free from AOL at > http://www.aol.com. <http://www.aol.com.> > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 14, 2007 Report Share Posted March 14, 2007 I do not know if I am making a mistake by pursuing this or not. I personally have a 4 year degree, but not in EMS. I have taken and taught most of the courses you are referring to at the college level. It made me a better paramedic and it does the same for nurses. You ask why the colleges do not push an associates degree in EMS. Do your research, the same college you attend as a nursing student, pushed and pushed and pushed. Lamar University, Orange, pushed and pushed and pushed. It was a failure because? The same reasons that I started this discussion off with. Some people just want a JOB and a PAYCHECK. As soon and as fast as they can get it. This is the same reason they have fasttrack Nursing programs that thousands of Paramedics took and still take all over the U.S. They did not want to go back to school for 2 more years. (four if you get your Bachelors in Nursing). If you really want to endure the process and go for an associates degree, and you want to be a better educated paramedic, you can, but it is getting harder and harder to keep associate degree programs open, when you only have 8 students per semester. Its a cost. Andy Foote Re: Pay scale discussion I understand the concept behind the associates degree program, but how many paramedics actually have an associates degree? How many college programs push associate degree programs? I have done a lot of research on UTSA-HHC bach. degree in EMS and they seem to have very good program. They are one of the few in the state that offer a four year degree. Why haven't any other college or universities began to offer a four year degree in EMS? <BR><BR><BR>**************************************<BR> AOL now offers free email to everyone. Find out more about what's free from AOL at http://www.aol.com. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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