Crazy no more!

[Guest guest]

Hi all,

I joined the list about a week ago after some toxic fallout followed by a lot of

searching and cascading light bulb moments. I've been reading like crazy since I

joined and I must say a big thank you to you all for helping me to feel like I'm

not crazy after all.

Here's a bit about me:

I'm 39, married to a wonderful man and have 2 incredible children. I have two

university qualifications (only one in my FOO to have gone to uni) and have

always held down jobs successfully (I'm good at what I do). The thing is I have

a real problem with self worth and believing that other people actually want me

around or that anything I do is up to standard. It has taken years for my

husband to get me used to receiving compliments, accepting unconditional love

and being able to accept gifts without asking " what's the catch " . I detach, over

think everything and am overly self critical (yes there has been some honest

self appraisal going on – it's been a big year with a lot of breakthroughs with

lies revealed for what they are).

Both my parents are only children and I have a younger sister. I now strongly

suspect that all 3 are somewhere on the BPD/NPD spectrum or so enmeshed that

they may as well be. My sister was taken to a psyc. as a teen and I remember

something about her " not having a conscience/not being able to see consequences "

in the outcome so excuses are always made for my sister's dramas (drug abuse,

illnesses, bad behavior, etc) as she " can't help it " (hmmm). There was also a

family business in the mix where both my parents worked.

It is usually my mother and sister tag teaming to bring me down (or them up?)

but my father will join in too. So as I see it at the moment it's usually me as

the all bad / scapegoat. I think my mother and sister are queen/waif types where

my father is a hermit type. I am the child that " never does anything to help "

and " never completes anything " and is always being told to " be nice to your

sister " .

My one safe place was my Nan (father's mother) who spoke value into me as a

child and young adult; unfortunately I lost her when I was 19. She was an

amazing woman who is the mother of my heart – I miss her still.

I have been instinctively maintaining a superficial and low contact relationship

with my FOO since I was legally/financially able to. I decided this year that I

did not want to go through the usual Christmas day hoo-ha and so opted out

(politely – I got someone else to read the email) and received a particularly

toxic reply - lots of FOG. The email, whilst horrid, actually did me a favor –

it gave me the key to unlocking the puzzle – she blamed a 9yr old me for all the

family's pain and dysfunction apparently because " I shut them out of my life " –

WTF??? She also told me that I was cold hearted and uncaring and unless I

changed my attitude I would never have a proper family relationship. I haven't

responded but may need to at some point.

I started my search with how children deal with trauma (my mother had a CVA when

I was 9 and was hospitalized for months coming home with multiple side effects

including epilepsy – yep no counseling and I had to grow up FAST and take on

quite a bit as my father disappeared into his work). So I'm now looking at PTSD

which explains a lot of my detachment and other depressive behaviors during high

school. But that only felt like it told half the story so I kept looking and

came across BPD/NPD which sounded eerily familiar and as so many people here

have said " did we have the same parents? " .

The FOO behavior that clinched the deal for me this year was that my sister

remembered my son's birthday and forgot my daughter's; my mother forgot my son's

birthday and remembered my daughter's. It's almost as if they are trying to

divvy up my children between them so they can have one each. The kids are now 10

and 12 and are smart. They have been asking " how come mummy is so nice when

nanna (my mother) is so horrible " and they do not want to visit with my FOO any

more, they've had enough of what they describe as my FOO's bullying behavior

towards me (yes my FOO dumps on me in front of my kids and always has done,

maybe I'll go into that another time). They also blow off the FOG for what it

is.

This Christmas was the most relaxed and enjoyable one I think I have ever had

(no FOO drama) and since finding this list I have felt more at peace and sane

than I have ever felt. I'm in a good place right now but know I have a long way

to go.

So here I am, trying to understand, learn and heal. I am looking into therapy

(my work offers a free service) and am in the process of getting hold of SWOE,

etc. I'm really quite stable considering but I still question my judgment and

ask myself if I am overreacting as the behaviors are so insidious as to be

easily disregarded by most people even as I sit writing this.

Thank you for taking the time to read. I look forward to getting to know you

all.

LT

[Guest guest]

Hi LT,

Welcome to WTO! I hope that you will find great insight and healing here. I am

also a split-black, scapegoat KO with a Golden Child sibling. I was struck by

how amazingly similar your nadas statement are to mine. She also began telling

me--when I was a young child, not yet 10 or 12--I had 'abandoned this family', I

'wasn't a part' of 'this family', and that I was 'mean and hateful'. They

aren't quite the same words but are definitely paraphrases of themes. I now

understand that nada was projecting HER behavior onto me. By severely,

relentlessly scapegoating me, she was being hateful to ME, and abandoning ME.

I will often see statements on this board that post-ers recount, bewildered, how

could my nada say this, when it was so off?--and it will be so obvious to me

that they are pure projection.

Best,

Charlie

>

>

> Hi all,

> I joined the list about a week ago after some toxic fallout followed by a lot

of searching and cascading light bulb moments. I've been reading like crazy

since I joined and I must say a big thank you to you all for helping me to feel

like I'm not crazy after all.

> Here's a bit about me:

> I'm 39, married to a wonderful man and have 2 incredible children. I have two

university qualifications (only one in my FOO to have gone to uni) and have

always held down jobs successfully (I'm good at what I do). The thing is I have

a real problem with self worth and believing that other people actually want me

around or that anything I do is up to standard. It has taken years for my

husband to get me used to receiving compliments, accepting unconditional love

and being able to accept gifts without asking " what's the catch " . I detach, over

think everything and am overly self critical (yes there has been some honest

self appraisal going on – it's been a big year with a lot of breakthroughs with

lies revealed for what they are).

> Both my parents are only children and I have a younger sister. I now strongly

suspect that all 3 are somewhere on the BPD/NPD spectrum or so enmeshed that

they may as well be. My sister was taken to a psyc. as a teen and I remember

something about her " not having a conscience/not being able to see consequences "

in the outcome so excuses are always made for my sister's dramas (drug abuse,

illnesses, bad behavior, etc) as she " can't help it " (hmmm). There was also a

family business in the mix where both my parents worked.

> It is usually my mother and sister tag teaming to bring me down (or them up?)

but my father will join in too. So as I see it at the moment it's usually me as

the all bad / scapegoat. I think my mother and sister are queen/waif types where

my father is a hermit type. I am the child that " never does anything to help "

and " never completes anything " and is always being told to " be nice to your

sister " .

> My one safe place was my Nan (father's mother) who spoke value into me as a

child and young adult; unfortunately I lost her when I was 19. She was an

amazing woman who is the mother of my heart – I miss her still.

> I have been instinctively maintaining a superficial and low contact

relationship with my FOO since I was legally/financially able to. I decided this

year that I did not want to go through the usual Christmas day hoo-ha and so

opted out (politely – I got someone else to read the email) and received a

particularly toxic reply - lots of FOG. The email, whilst horrid, actually did

me a favor – it gave me the key to unlocking the puzzle – she blamed a 9yr old

me for all the family's pain and dysfunction apparently because " I shut them out

of my life " – WTF??? She also told me that I was cold hearted and uncaring and

unless I changed my attitude I would never have a proper family relationship. I

haven't responded but may need to at some point.

> I started my search with how children deal with trauma (my mother had a CVA

when I was 9 and was hospitalized for months coming home with multiple side

effects including epilepsy – yep no counseling and I had to grow up FAST and

take on quite a bit as my father disappeared into his work). So I'm now looking

at PTSD which explains a lot of my detachment and other depressive behaviors

during high school. But that only felt like it told half the story so I kept

looking and came across BPD/NPD which sounded eerily familiar and as so many

people here have said " did we have the same parents? " .

> The FOO behavior that clinched the deal for me this year was that my sister

remembered my son's birthday and forgot my daughter's; my mother forgot my son's

birthday and remembered my daughter's. It's almost as if they are trying to

divvy up my children between them so they can have one each. The kids are now 10

and 12 and are smart. They have been asking " how come mummy is so nice when

nanna (my mother) is so horrible " and they do not want to visit with my FOO any

more, they've had enough of what they describe as my FOO's bullying behavior

towards me (yes my FOO dumps on me in front of my kids and always has done,

maybe I'll go into that another time). They also blow off the FOG for what it

is.

> This Christmas was the most relaxed and enjoyable one I think I have ever had

(no FOO drama) and since finding this list I have felt more at peace and sane

than I have ever felt. I'm in a good place right now but know I have a long way

to go.

> So here I am, trying to understand, learn and heal. I am looking into therapy

(my work offers a free service) and am in the process of getting hold of SWOE,

etc. I'm really quite stable considering but I still question my judgment and

ask myself if I am overreacting as the behaviors are so insidious as to be

easily disregarded by most people even as I sit writing this.

> Thank you for taking the time to read. I look forward to getting to know you

all.

> LT

>

[Guest guest]

Its hard to wrap our minds around the concept that a person can be too severely

mentally ill to be raising children when she's not waving a meat-cleaver around

or shooting a gun at her kids' heads or selling her children to pedophiles for

drugs.

People, including the very children of bpd moms who are receiving emotional

abuse, don't equate behaviors such as assigning an artificial role to a child

(like the role of " scapegoat " ), an inability to view and relate to the child as

a separate, unique and good human being, or an inability to accept that the

child has feelings and needs that need to be met in a responsible way... as

abusive and indicative of a mental disorder. People don't equate inflicting

unrealistic expectations (perfectionism) on a child as being severely abusive,

and people don't equate screaming in a child's face or threatening physical

assault or threatening to abandon the child as being severely abusive... but

they are.

These misperceptions need to change. They badly need to change.

The very traits that define personality disorder, that define the Cluster B pds

in particular, are *exactly the opposite* traits and behaviors that one thinks

of as being inherent to a " good enough " parent.

Nobody in their right mind would hire a nanny to care for their child if that

person exhibited any five of the 9 bpd criteria toward their child. Nobody in

their right mind would leave their child in the care of someone who is

chronically irritable, easily triggered into rage, highly impulsive, someone who

makes suicide threats or self-mutiliates under stress, or becomes delusional and

paranoid under stress, who sees the child as either all good or all bad, (or

switches the child back and forth), who has a fear of being alone, etc.

Its insane, its crazy to leave a little child with such an individual. Why this

is not blatantly obvious is truly beyond me. I don't get it.

I think there needs to be massive public education about what mentally healthy

behaviors look like and sound like, in comparison to what mentally ill,

abnormal, abusive behaviors look like and sound like, particularly in regards to

parenting; we need some kind of minimally acceptable standard to go by, so that

kids can be rescued from severely abusive homes more easily.

Just me on my soapbox again; my opinion to take or leave.

-Annie

> >

> >

> > Hi all,

> > I joined the list about a week ago after some toxic fallout followed by a

lot of searching and cascading light bulb moments. I've been reading like crazy

since I joined and I must say a big thank you to you all for helping me to feel

like I'm not crazy after all.

> > Here's a bit about me:

> > I'm 39, married to a wonderful man and have 2 incredible children. I have

two university qualifications (only one in my FOO to have gone to uni) and have

always held down jobs successfully (I'm good at what I do). The thing is I have

a real problem with self worth and believing that other people actually want me

around or that anything I do is up to standard. It has taken years for my

husband to get me used to receiving compliments, accepting unconditional love

and being able to accept gifts without asking " what's the catch " . I detach, over

think everything and am overly self critical (yes there has been some honest

self appraisal going on – it's been a big year with a lot of breakthroughs with

lies revealed for what they are).

> > Both my parents are only children and I have a younger sister. I now

strongly suspect that all 3 are somewhere on the BPD/NPD spectrum or so enmeshed

that they may as well be. My sister was taken to a psyc. as a teen and I

remember something about her " not having a conscience/not being able to see

consequences " in the outcome so excuses are always made for my sister's dramas

(drug abuse, illnesses, bad behavior, etc) as she " can't help it " (hmmm). There

was also a family business in the mix where both my parents worked.

> > It is usually my mother and sister tag teaming to bring me down (or them

up?) but my father will join in too. So as I see it at the moment it's usually

me as the all bad / scapegoat. I think my mother and sister are queen/waif types

where my father is a hermit type. I am the child that " never does anything to

help " and " never completes anything " and is always being told to " be nice to

your sister " .

> > My one safe place was my Nan (father's mother) who spoke value into me as a

child and young adult; unfortunately I lost her when I was 19. She was an

amazing woman who is the mother of my heart – I miss her still.

> > I have been instinctively maintaining a superficial and low contact

relationship with my FOO since I was legally/financially able to. I decided this

year that I did not want to go through the usual Christmas day hoo-ha and so

opted out (politely – I got someone else to read the email) and received a

particularly toxic reply - lots of FOG. The email, whilst horrid, actually did

me a favor – it gave me the key to unlocking the puzzle – she blamed a 9yr old

me for all the family's pain and dysfunction apparently because " I shut them out

of my life " – WTF??? She also told me that I was cold hearted and uncaring and

unless I changed my attitude I would never have a proper family relationship. I

haven't responded but may need to at some point.

> > I started my search with how children deal with trauma (my mother had a CVA

when I was 9 and was hospitalized for months coming home with multiple side

effects including epilepsy – yep no counseling and I had to grow up FAST and

take on quite a bit as my father disappeared into his work). So I'm now looking

at PTSD which explains a lot of my detachment and other depressive behaviors

during high school. But that only felt like it told half the story so I kept

looking and came across BPD/NPD which sounded eerily familiar and as so many

people here have said " did we have the same parents? " .

> > The FOO behavior that clinched the deal for me this year was that my sister

remembered my son's birthday and forgot my daughter's; my mother forgot my son's

birthday and remembered my daughter's. It's almost as if they are trying to

divvy up my children between them so they can have one each. The kids are now 10

and 12 and are smart. They have been asking " how come mummy is so nice when

nanna (my mother) is so horrible " and they do not want to visit with my FOO any

more, they've had enough of what they describe as my FOO's bullying behavior

towards me (yes my FOO dumps on me in front of my kids and always has done,

maybe I'll go into that another time). They also blow off the FOG for what it

is.

> > This Christmas was the most relaxed and enjoyable one I think I have ever

had (no FOO drama) and since finding this list I have felt more at peace and

sane than I have ever felt. I'm in a good place right now but know I have a long

way to go.

> > So here I am, trying to understand, learn and heal. I am looking into

therapy (my work offers a free service) and am in the process of getting hold of

SWOE, etc. I'm really quite stable considering but I still question my judgment

and ask myself if I am overreacting as the behaviors are so insidious as to be

easily disregarded by most people even as I sit writing this.

> > Thank you for taking the time to read. I look forward to getting to know you

all.

> > LT

> >

>

[Guest guest]

couldn't agree more Annie, here here!

> > >

> > >

> > > Hi all,

> > > I joined the list about a week ago after some toxic fallout followed by a

lot of searching and cascading light bulb moments. I've been reading like crazy

since I joined and I must say a big thank you to you all for helping me to feel

like I'm not crazy after all.

> > > Here's a bit about me:

> > > I'm 39, married to a wonderful man and have 2 incredible children. I have

two university qualifications (only one in my FOO to have gone to uni) and have

always held down jobs successfully (I'm good at what I do). The thing is I have

a real problem with self worth and believing that other people actually want me

around or that anything I do is up to standard. It has taken years for my

husband to get me used to receiving compliments, accepting unconditional love

and being able to accept gifts without asking " what's the catch " . I detach, over

think everything and am overly self critical (yes there has been some honest

self appraisal going on – it's been a big year with a lot of breakthroughs with

lies revealed for what they are).

> > > Both my parents are only children and I have a younger sister. I now

strongly suspect that all 3 are somewhere on the BPD/NPD spectrum or so enmeshed

that they may as well be. My sister was taken to a psyc. as a teen and I

remember something about her " not having a conscience/not being able to see

consequences " in the outcome so excuses are always made for my sister's dramas

(drug abuse, illnesses, bad behavior, etc) as she " can't help it " (hmmm). There

was also a family business in the mix where both my parents worked.

> > > It is usually my mother and sister tag teaming to bring me down (or them

up?) but my father will join in too. So as I see it at the moment it's usually

me as the all bad / scapegoat. I think my mother and sister are queen/waif types

where my father is a hermit type. I am the child that " never does anything to

help " and " never completes anything " and is always being told to " be nice to

your sister " .

> > > My one safe place was my Nan (father's mother) who spoke value into me as

a child and young adult; unfortunately I lost her when I was 19. She was an

amazing woman who is the mother of my heart – I miss her still.

> > > I have been instinctively maintaining a superficial and low contact

relationship with my FOO since I was legally/financially able to. I decided this

year that I did not want to go through the usual Christmas day hoo-ha and so

opted out (politely – I got someone else to read the email) and received a

particularly toxic reply - lots of FOG. The email, whilst horrid, actually did

me a favor – it gave me the key to unlocking the puzzle – she blamed a 9yr old

me for all the family's pain and dysfunction apparently because " I shut them out

of my life " – WTF??? She also told me that I was cold hearted and uncaring and

unless I changed my attitude I would never have a proper family relationship. I

haven't responded but may need to at some point.

> > > I started my search with how children deal with trauma (my mother had a

CVA when I was 9 and was hospitalized for months coming home with multiple side

effects including epilepsy – yep no counseling and I had to grow up FAST and

take on quite a bit as my father disappeared into his work). So I'm now looking

at PTSD which explains a lot of my detachment and other depressive behaviors

during high school. But that only felt like it told half the story so I kept

looking and came across BPD/NPD which sounded eerily familiar and as so many

people here have said " did we have the same parents? " .

> > > The FOO behavior that clinched the deal for me this year was that my

sister remembered my son's birthday and forgot my daughter's; my mother forgot

my son's birthday and remembered my daughter's. It's almost as if they are

trying to divvy up my children between them so they can have one each. The kids

are now 10 and 12 and are smart. They have been asking " how come mummy is so

nice when nanna (my mother) is so horrible " and they do not want to visit with

my FOO any more, they've had enough of what they describe as my FOO's bullying

behavior towards me (yes my FOO dumps on me in front of my kids and always has

done, maybe I'll go into that another time). They also blow off the FOG for what

it is.

> > > This Christmas was the most relaxed and enjoyable one I think I have ever

had (no FOO drama) and since finding this list I have felt more at peace and

sane than I have ever felt. I'm in a good place right now but know I have a long

way to go.

> > > So here I am, trying to understand, learn and heal. I am looking into

therapy (my work offers a free service) and am in the process of getting hold of

SWOE, etc. I'm really quite stable considering but I still question my judgment

and ask myself if I am overreacting as the behaviors are so insidious as to be

easily disregarded by most people even as I sit writing this.

> > > Thank you for taking the time to read. I look forward to getting to know

you all.

> > > LT

> > >

> >

>

[Guest guest]

Hi Charlie,

It has been truly validating to know that I'm not alone. I'm walking into

uncharted territory now and really appreciate having somewhere to go for advice.

I'm sorry you have experienced some of what I have, there is no excuse for any

child to through this abuse. Thank you for helping me to see it for what it

really is.

Annie - I agree completely. I think the reason we question our sanity is that

the abusive behaviour is hidden and so hard to prove because the scars cannot be

seen or measured so even good/normal people question us until they experience it

for themselves.

I've always known that my FOO was rotten but I guess there was a lot of

repression and denial going on. I was trapped in their world so I detached and

stayed away as much as possible - none of it made sense but I continued to

question my own worth/value/abilities/memories.

I think a lot of their projected taunts come from pure jealousy though I don't

understand why it needs to be this way and probably never will, but I can and

will work to change the scripts they have trained me to believe. It's ironic

that I have " proper family relationships/friendships " with everyone but them.

The downside is I find it hard to trust and believe that people want me around

and I find social situations exhausting thanks to their abuse.

I've been learning a lot about myself this year and uncovering a lot of

lies/half truths/put downs thanks to some truly wonderful managers in my new job

as well as friends and family who value ME, it has been painful but I know it

needs to be done. Honest feedback and genuine love that is free of all the

bull@#$% FOG is so good but scary in so many ways. I'm so used to skating around

the edge of any sort of emotion out of self defense that allowing myself to feel

and be vulnerable is a bit messy (I think my husband is going to buy Kleenex

shares lol).

Hugs & thanks

LT

> >

> >

> > Hi all,

> > I joined the list about a week ago after some toxic fallout followed by a

lot of searching and cascading light bulb moments. I've been reading like crazy

since I joined and I must say a big thank you to you all for helping me to feel

like I'm not crazy after all.

> > Here's a bit about me:

> > I'm 39, married to a wonderful man and have 2 incredible children. I have

two university qualifications (only one in my FOO to have gone to uni) and have

always held down jobs successfully (I'm good at what I do). The thing is I have

a real problem with self worth and believing that other people actually want me

around or that anything I do is up to standard. It has taken years for my

husband to get me used to receiving compliments, accepting unconditional love

and being able to accept gifts without asking " what's the catch " . I detach, over

think everything and am overly self critical (yes there has been some honest

self appraisal going on – it's been a big year with a lot of breakthroughs with

lies revealed for what they are).

> > Both my parents are only children and I have a younger sister. I now

strongly suspect that all 3 are somewhere on the BPD/NPD spectrum or so enmeshed

that they may as well be. My sister was taken to a psyc. as a teen and I

remember something about her " not having a conscience/not being able to see

consequences " in the outcome so excuses are always made for my sister's dramas

(drug abuse, illnesses, bad behavior, etc) as she " can't help it " (hmmm). There

was also a family business in the mix where both my parents worked.

> > It is usually my mother and sister tag teaming to bring me down (or them

up?) but my father will join in too. So as I see it at the moment it's usually

me as the all bad / scapegoat. I think my mother and sister are queen/waif types

where my father is a hermit type. I am the child that " never does anything to

help " and " never completes anything " and is always being told to " be nice to

your sister " .

> > My one safe place was my Nan (father's mother) who spoke value into me as a

child and young adult; unfortunately I lost her when I was 19. She was an

amazing woman who is the mother of my heart – I miss her still.

> > I have been instinctively maintaining a superficial and low contact

relationship with my FOO since I was legally/financially able to. I decided this

year that I did not want to go through the usual Christmas day hoo-ha and so

opted out (politely – I got someone else to read the email) and received a

particularly toxic reply - lots of FOG. The email, whilst horrid, actually did

me a favor – it gave me the key to unlocking the puzzle – she blamed a 9yr old

me for all the family's pain and dysfunction apparently because " I shut them out

of my life " – WTF??? She also told me that I was cold hearted and uncaring and

unless I changed my attitude I would never have a proper family relationship. I

haven't responded but may need to at some point.

> > I started my search with how children deal with trauma (my mother had a CVA

when I was 9 and was hospitalized for months coming home with multiple side

effects including epilepsy – yep no counseling and I had to grow up FAST and

take on quite a bit as my father disappeared into his work). So I'm now looking

at PTSD which explains a lot of my detachment and other depressive behaviors

during high school. But that only felt like it told half the story so I kept

looking and came across BPD/NPD which sounded eerily familiar and as so many

people here have said " did we have the same parents? " .

> > The FOO behavior that clinched the deal for me this year was that my sister

remembered my son's birthday and forgot my daughter's; my mother forgot my son's

birthday and remembered my daughter's. It's almost as if they are trying to

divvy up my children between them so they can have one each. The kids are now 10

and 12 and are smart. They have been asking " how come mummy is so nice when

nanna (my mother) is so horrible " and they do not want to visit with my FOO any

more, they've had enough of what they describe as my FOO's bullying behavior

towards me (yes my FOO dumps on me in front of my kids and always has done,

maybe I'll go into that another time). They also blow off the FOG for what it

is.

> > This Christmas was the most relaxed and enjoyable one I think I have ever

had (no FOO drama) and since finding this list I have felt more at peace and

sane than I have ever felt. I'm in a good place right now but know I have a long

way to go.

> > So here I am, trying to understand, learn and heal. I am looking into

therapy (my work offers a free service) and am in the process of getting hold of

SWOE, etc. I'm really quite stable considering but I still question my judgment

and ask myself if I am overreacting as the behaviors are so insidious as to be

easily disregarded by most people even as I sit writing this.

> > Thank you for taking the time to read. I look forward to getting to know you

all.

> > LT

> >

>

[Guest guest]

I agree with Annie the public should be more educated about mental illness and

children. Growing up my BP mother told me if I told anyone about what was going

on at home she would make sure they wouldn't believe me by telling them that I

was crazy. It wasn't till I was 23 years old that someone even asked me if I was

being abused. That was a turning point in my life, I started to understand that

she was abusing me. Growing up I understood that my Dad was abusive but, he

wasn't BP. My BP mom's abuse was surrounded by FOG. I got off track of the topic

I wanted to talk about. The public needs to know about the signs of BP. Because

some high functioning BP are teaching young children. It kills me knowing that

my NC BP mom is a first grade teacher and, yes she is abusive to the students in

her class I've seen it at first hand. But she puts on this big show and everyone

loves her. So, when a parent complains that she made their child cry the

principal is of the mind set that oh so in so would never do that. She is a

great teacher who is great to all her students. If the public was more educated

they would be able to protect their children from being abused by a BP teacher.

Happy New Year!! I am new to the group and, I am glad to be here.

SB

Sent from my BlackBerry® device on the Simple Mobile network

Re: Crazy no more!

Its hard to wrap our minds around the concept that a person can be too severely

mentally ill to be raising children when she's not waving a meat-cleaver around

or shooting a gun at her kids' heads or selling her children to pedophiles for

drugs.

People, including the very children of bpd moms who are receiving emotional

abuse, don't equate behaviors such as assigning an artificial role to a child

(like the role of " scapegoat " ), an inability to view and relate to the child as

a separate, unique and good human being, or an inability to accept that the

child has feelings and needs that need to be met in a responsible way... as

abusive and indicative of a mental disorder. People don't equate inflicting

unrealistic expectations (perfectionism) on a child as being severely abusive,

and people don't equate screaming in a child's face or threatening physical

assault or threatening to abandon the child as being severely abusive... but

they are.

These misperceptions need to change. They badly need to change.

The very traits that define personality disorder, that define the Cluster B pds

in particular, are *exactly the opposite* traits and behaviors that one thinks

of as being inherent to a " good enough " parent.

Nobody in their right mind would hire a nanny to care for their child if that

person exhibited any five of the 9 bpd criteria toward their child. Nobody in

their right mind would leave their child in the care of someone who is

chronically irritable, easily triggered into rage, highly impulsive, someone who

makes suicide threats or self-mutiliates under stress, or becomes delusional and

paranoid under stress, who sees the child as either all good or all bad, (or

switches the child back and forth), who has a fear of being alone, etc.

Its insane, its crazy to leave a little child with such an individual. Why this

is not blatantly obvious is truly beyond me. I don't get it.

I think there needs to be massive public education about what mentally healthy

behaviors look like and sound like, in comparison to what mentally ill,

abnormal, abusive behaviors look like and sound like, particularly in regards to

parenting; we need some kind of minimally acceptable standard to go by, so that

kids can be rescued from severely abusive homes more easily.

Just me on my soapbox again; my opinion to take or leave.

-Annie

> >

> >

> > Hi all,

> > I joined the list about a week ago after some toxic fallout followed by a

lot of searching and cascading light bulb moments. I've been reading like crazy

since I joined and I must say a big thank you to you all for helping me to feel

like I'm not crazy after all.

> > Here's a bit about me:

> > I'm 39, married to a wonderful man and have 2 incredible children. I have

two university qualifications (only one in my FOO to have gone to uni) and have

always held down jobs successfully (I'm good at what I do). The thing is I have

a real problem with self worth and believing that other people actually want me

around or that anything I do is up to standard. It has taken years for my

husband to get me used to receiving compliments, accepting unconditional love

and being able to accept gifts without asking " what's the catch " . I detach, over

think everything and am overly self critical (yes there has been some honest

self appraisal going on – it's been a big year with a lot of breakthroughs with

lies revealed for what they are).

> > Both my parents are only children and I have a younger sister. I now

strongly suspect that all 3 are somewhere on the BPD/NPD spectrum or so enmeshed

that they may as well be. My sister was taken to a psyc. as a teen and I

remember something about her " not having a conscience/not being able to see

consequences " in the outcome so excuses are always made for my sister's dramas

(drug abuse, illnesses, bad behavior, etc) as she " can't help it " (hmmm). There

was also a family business in the mix where both my parents worked.

> > It is usually my mother and sister tag teaming to bring me down (or them

up?) but my father will join in too. So as I see it at the moment it's usually

me as the all bad / scapegoat. I think my mother and sister are queen/waif types

where my father is a hermit type. I am the child that " never does anything to

help " and " never completes anything " and is always being told to " be nice to

your sister " .

> > My one safe place was my Nan (father's mother) who spoke value into me as a

child and young adult; unfortunately I lost her when I was 19. She was an

amazing woman who is the mother of my heart – I miss her still.

> > I have been instinctively maintaining a superficial and low contact

relationship with my FOO since I was legally/financially able to. I decided this

year that I did not want to go through the usual Christmas day hoo-ha and so

opted out (politely – I got someone else to read the email) and received a

particularly toxic reply - lots of FOG. The email, whilst horrid, actually did

me a favor – it gave me the key to unlocking the puzzle – she blamed a 9yr old

me for all the family's pain and dysfunction apparently because " I shut them out

of my life " – WTF??? She also told me that I was cold hearted and uncaring and

unless I changed my attitude I would never have a proper family relationship. I

haven't responded but may need to at some point.

> > I started my search with how children deal with trauma (my mother had a CVA

when I was 9 and was hospitalized for months coming home with multiple side

effects including epilepsy – yep no counseling and I had to grow up FAST and

take on quite a bit as my father disappeared into his work). So I'm now looking

at PTSD which explains a lot of my detachment and other depressive behaviors

during high school. But that only felt like it told half the story so I kept

looking and came across BPD/NPD which sounded eerily familiar and as so many

people here have said " did we have the same parents? " .

> > The FOO behavior that clinched the deal for me this year was that my sister

remembered my son's birthday and forgot my daughter's; my mother forgot my son's

birthday and remembered my daughter's. It's almost as if they are trying to

divvy up my children between them so they can have one each. The kids are now 10

and 12 and are smart. They have been asking " how come mummy is so nice when

nanna (my mother) is so horrible " and they do not want to visit with my FOO any

more, they've had enough of what they describe as my FOO's bullying behavior

towards me (yes my FOO dumps on me in front of my kids and always has done,

maybe I'll go into that another time). They also blow off the FOG for what it

is.

> > This Christmas was the most relaxed and enjoyable one I think I have ever

had (no FOO drama) and since finding this list I have felt more at peace and

sane than I have ever felt. I'm in a good place right now but know I have a long

way to go.

> > So here I am, trying to understand, learn and heal. I am looking into

therapy (my work offers a free service) and am in the process of getting hold of

SWOE, etc. I'm really quite stable considering but I still question my judgment

and ask myself if I am overreacting as the behaviors are so insidious as to be

easily disregarded by most people even as I sit writing this.

> > Thank you for taking the time to read. I look forward to getting to know you

all.

> > LT

> >

>

[Guest guest]

Hi findingmyself72,

Your story is very, very similar to mine. I too was the scapegoat kid and I had

a " good " sister. Most of my foo can be located along the npd/bpd spectrum. I

have three university degrees (two of them masters level), and yet I struggle

with feeling competent and " good enough " .

I have two amazing children (10 and 12). One BIG difference is that you figured

out how to pick a supportive husband. Sadly, I did not. I picked someone with

NPD traits (at the least) and some fairly misogynistic/abusive tendencies of his

own (verbal and emotional).

How did you have the sense to find a good-hearted husband? That says to me that

you must be quite strong and well-grounded despite your beginnings.

Back to the similarities.... My nada disappeared into mental hospitals after

suicide attempts when I was a child. I have struggled with C-PTSD symptoms on

and off all my life, though I didn't know it as that until quite recently.

I made it into my mid thirties with relatively little awareness of all this

stuff and functioning pretty well (outwardly at least). But then the sh*t hit

the fan.

I started having babies and my husband became increasingly abusive. My father

died and I had a complex grief reaction. My mother became even more outrageously

mean and manipulative. She continuously threatened to cut me out of her life

and to abandon me if I didn't do/see things her way. I saw how she was starting

to spin her hateful webs around my new family members, including my older

daughter, and to bad mouth me at every turn to anyone who would listen, etc.

All of this added up cumulatively, and I lost it. I became very depressed.

It's been a long, tough haul, but I'm re-emerging. I divorced my husband.

Woo-hoo! I have to remain ever vigilant in relation to him though. He tries to

undermine my relationship with my kids which is horrible, but other than that

and the fact that my " good " sister has some pretty serious issues of her own and

is not willing or able to be in a meaningful relationship with me, I have dug

myself out from FOO craziness and found a truly wonderful, smart, healthy,

mutually supportive set of friends and then even a new partner. I also have a

long-standing relationship with a therapist who really gets this stuff.

If you are inclined to get therapy, I suggest finding one that has expertise in

" attachment " . My therapist's deep understanding of attachment and how it can go

awry and how to use the therapeutic context to heal attachment wounds is what

made ALL the difference for me.

Anyway, this is my way of introducing myself to you and to say that I look

forward to getting to know you too.

Welcome,

HC

>

>

> Hi all,

> I joined the list about a week ago after some toxic fallout followed by a lot

of searching and cascading light bulb moments. I've been reading like crazy

since I joined and I must say a big thank you to you all for helping me to feel

like I'm not crazy after all.

> Here's a bit about me:

> I'm 39, married to a wonderful man and have 2 incredible children. I have two

university qualifications (only one in my FOO to have gone to uni) and have

always held down jobs successfully (I'm good at what I do). The thing is I have

a real problem with self worth and believing that other people actually want me

around or that anything I do is up to standard. It has taken years for my

husband to get me used to receiving compliments, accepting unconditional love

and being able to accept gifts without asking " what's the catch " . I detach, over

think everything and am overly self critical (yes there has been some honest

self appraisal going on – it's been a big year with a lot of breakthroughs with

lies revealed for what they are).

> Both my parents are only children and I have a younger sister. I now strongly

suspect that all 3 are somewhere on the BPD/NPD spectrum or so enmeshed that

they may as well be. My sister was taken to a psyc. as a teen and I remember

something about her " not having a conscience/not being able to see consequences "

in the outcome so excuses are always made for my sister's dramas (drug abuse,

illnesses, bad behavior, etc) as she " can't help it " (hmmm). There was also a

family business in the mix where both my parents worked.

> It is usually my mother and sister tag teaming to bring me down (or them up?)

but my father will join in too. So as I see it at the moment it's usually me as

the all bad / scapegoat. I think my mother and sister are queen/waif types where

my father is a hermit type. I am the child that " never does anything to help "

and " never completes anything " and is always being told to " be nice to your

sister " .

> My one safe place was my Nan (father's mother) who spoke value into me as a

child and young adult; unfortunately I lost her when I was 19. She was an

amazing woman who is the mother of my heart – I miss her still.

> I have been instinctively maintaining a superficial and low contact

relationship with my FOO since I was legally/financially able to. I decided this

year that I did not want to go through the usual Christmas day hoo-ha and so

opted out (politely – I got someone else to read the email) and received a

particularly toxic reply - lots of FOG. The email, whilst horrid, actually did

me a favor – it gave me the key to unlocking the puzzle – she blamed a 9yr old

me for all the family's pain and dysfunction apparently because " I shut them out

of my life " – WTF??? She also told me that I was cold hearted and uncaring and

unless I changed my attitude I would never have a proper family relationship. I

haven't responded but may need to at some point.

> I started my search with how children deal with trauma (my mother had a CVA

when I was 9 and was hospitalized for months coming home with multiple side

effects including epilepsy – yep no counseling and I had to grow up FAST and

take on quite a bit as my father disappeared into his work). So I'm now looking

at PTSD which explains a lot of my detachment and other depressive behaviors

during high school. But that only felt like it told half the story so I kept

looking and came across BPD/NPD which sounded eerily familiar and as so many

people here have said " did we have the same parents? " .

> The FOO behavior that clinched the deal for me this year was that my sister

remembered my son's birthday and forgot my daughter's; my mother forgot my son's

birthday and remembered my daughter's. It's almost as if they are trying to

divvy up my children between them so they can have one each. The kids are now 10

and 12 and are smart. They have been asking " how come mummy is so nice when

nanna (my mother) is so horrible " and they do not want to visit with my FOO any

more, they've had enough of what they describe as my FOO's bullying behavior

towards me (yes my FOO dumps on me in front of my kids and always has done,

maybe I'll go into that another time). They also blow off the FOG for what it

is.

> This Christmas was the most relaxed and enjoyable one I think I have ever had

(no FOO drama) and since finding this list I have felt more at peace and sane

than I have ever felt. I'm in a good place right now but know I have a long way

to go.

> So here I am, trying to understand, learn and heal. I am looking into therapy

(my work offers a free service) and am in the process of getting hold of SWOE,

etc. I'm really quite stable considering but I still question my judgment and

ask myself if I am overreacting as the behaviors are so insidious as to be

easily disregarded by most people even as I sit writing this.

> Thank you for taking the time to read. I look forward to getting to know you

all.

> LT

>

[Guest guest]

my thoughts exactly. Messy is the word. i too was surprised to find myself

likable. unfortunately Nadas grooming put me into contact with other nasty

people who took advantage, but none of them are still part of my life. thus is

the luxury of non-related jerks. " sensitive " is my label. my husband was warned

when we got married...

as it turns out my " sensitivity " is not an issue in the marriage. 7 years and

yep still not an issue.

turns out when I am not being abused I don't " over-react "

the memories are hard. I overlooked, justified, and assumed I was wrong about it

all. then it all just went too far. then I realized that I really was hurt, not

just crazy.

and then the memories flooded in. so now I am awash in the horror of it all. I

thought she was a loving mother. the abuse is all so deniable.

but deniable or not the abuse was a daily part of my life. so I am trying to

heal, forgive and maintain a relationship in which the aggressor denies, ignores

and defies my feelings, experiences, and well even my personality.

good luck everyone. and thank God for WTO.

Meikjn

> > >

> > >

> > > Hi all,

> > > I joined the list about a week ago after some toxic fallout followed by a

lot of searching and cascading light bulb moments. I've been reading like crazy

since I joined and I must say a big thank you to you all for helping me to feel

like I'm not crazy after all.

> > > Here's a bit about me:

> > > I'm 39, married to a wonderful man and have 2 incredible children. I have

two university qualifications (only one in my FOO to have gone to uni) and have

always held down jobs successfully (I'm good at what I do). The thing is I have

a real problem with self worth and believing that other people actually want me

around or that anything I do is up to standard. It has taken years for my

husband to get me used to receiving compliments, accepting unconditional love

and being able to accept gifts without asking " what's the catch " . I detach, over

think everything and am overly self critical (yes there has been some honest

self appraisal going on – it's been a big year with a lot of breakthroughs with

lies revealed for what they are).

> > > Both my parents are only children and I have a younger sister. I now

strongly suspect that all 3 are somewhere on the BPD/NPD spectrum or so enmeshed

that they may as well be. My sister was taken to a psyc. as a teen and I

remember something about her " not having a conscience/not being able to see

consequences " in the outcome so excuses are always made for my sister's dramas

(drug abuse, illnesses, bad behavior, etc) as she " can't help it " (hmmm). There

was also a family business in the mix where both my parents worked.

> > > It is usually my mother and sister tag teaming to bring me down (or them

up?) but my father will join in too. So as I see it at the moment it's usually

me as the all bad / scapegoat. I think my mother and sister are queen/waif types

where my father is a hermit type. I am the child that " never does anything to

help " and " never completes anything " and is always being told to " be nice to

your sister " .

> > > My one safe place was my Nan (father's mother) who spoke value into me as

a child and young adult; unfortunately I lost her when I was 19. She was an

amazing woman who is the mother of my heart – I miss her still.

> > > I have been instinctively maintaining a superficial and low contact

relationship with my FOO since I was legally/financially able to. I decided this

year that I did not want to go through the usual Christmas day hoo-ha and so

opted out (politely – I got someone else to read the email) and received a

particularly toxic reply - lots of FOG. The email, whilst horrid, actually did

me a favor – it gave me the key to unlocking the puzzle – she blamed a 9yr old

me for all the family's pain and dysfunction apparently because " I shut them out

of my life " – WTF??? She also told me that I was cold hearted and uncaring and

unless I changed my attitude I would never have a proper family relationship. I

haven't responded but may need to at some point.

> > > I started my search with how children deal with trauma (my mother had a

CVA when I was 9 and was hospitalized for months coming home with multiple side

effects including epilepsy – yep no counseling and I had to grow up FAST and

take on quite a bit as my father disappeared into his work). So I'm now looking

at PTSD which explains a lot of my detachment and other depressive behaviors

during high school. But that only felt like it told half the story so I kept

looking and came across BPD/NPD which sounded eerily familiar and as so many

people here have said " did we have the same parents? " .

> > > The FOO behavior that clinched the deal for me this year was that my

sister remembered my son's birthday and forgot my daughter's; my mother forgot

my son's birthday and remembered my daughter's. It's almost as if they are

trying to divvy up my children between them so they can have one each. The kids

are now 10 and 12 and are smart. They have been asking " how come mummy is so

nice when nanna (my mother) is so horrible " and they do not want to visit with

my FOO any more, they've had enough of what they describe as my FOO's bullying

behavior towards me (yes my FOO dumps on me in front of my kids and always has

done, maybe I'll go into that another time). They also blow off the FOG for what

it is.

> > > This Christmas was the most relaxed and enjoyable one I think I have ever

had (no FOO drama) and since finding this list I have felt more at peace and

sane than I have ever felt. I'm in a good place right now but know I have a long

way to go.

> > > So here I am, trying to understand, learn and heal. I am looking into

therapy (my work offers a free service) and am in the process of getting hold of

SWOE, etc. I'm really quite stable considering but I still question my judgment

and ask myself if I am overreacting as the behaviors are so insidious as to be

easily disregarded by most people even as I sit writing this.

> > > Thank you for taking the time to read. I look forward to getting to know

you all.

> > > LT

> > >

> >

>

[Guest guest]

Hi HC

I have my Nan to thank for a good grounding. I was frequently left with her from

a very early age because both my parents were working in the family business

(and they wonder why I don't feel much attachment to them - a completely

separate issue to the BPD or perhaps just another symptom). The family business

was like another golden child sibling that got all the love and attention. My

FOO house was like living in a rather nasty boarding house for the most part. I

think my " detachment " coping strategy helped a lot at the time too but we all

know that climbing out of that one is tough. I can still fade out pretty quickly

when I feel overwhelmed or threatened, then all the old anxiety and mental

scripts kick in - hate it!

My husband has been through his own dramas dealing with the break-up of his

family when he was a teen so we can relate in many ways. I went through my share

of boyfriend dramas before we got together and we had been friends for 8 years

so there were no nasty surprises when we did get married. He also insisted that

he needed to deal with some of his own baggage before we had kids so that it

wasn't brought into the mix. And yes my FOO hates him with a passion because he

won't put up with any of the FOG (he can make nada look like she's sucked on a

whole crate full of lemons in about 3 seconds flat - she asks for it every time

but doesn't learn).

I'm really glad you've finally found a really supportive group of friends ( &

partner) it really helps to have a safe place and people who will stand with

you. You sound like you are in a good place right now.

I've just picked up SWOE and I'm considering therapy. Thanks for the tip about

getting someone who understands attachment, it makes sense and I'll keep it in

mind if I decide to go ahead.

Thanks for your words of encouragement.

LT

> >

> >

> > Hi all,

> > I joined the list about a week ago after some toxic fallout followed by a

lot of searching and cascading light bulb moments. I've been reading like crazy

since I joined and I must say a big thank you to you all for helping me to feel

like I'm not crazy after all.

> > Here's a bit about me:

> > I'm 39, married to a wonderful man and have 2 incredible children. I have

two university qualifications (only one in my FOO to have gone to uni) and have

always held down jobs successfully (I'm good at what I do). The thing is I have

a real problem with self worth and believing that other people actually want me

around or that anything I do is up to standard. It has taken years for my

husband to get me used to receiving compliments, accepting unconditional love

and being able to accept gifts without asking " what's the catch " . I detach, over

think everything and am overly self critical (yes there has been some honest

self appraisal going on – it's been a big year with a lot of breakthroughs with

lies revealed for what they are).

> > Both my parents are only children and I have a younger sister. I now

strongly suspect that all 3 are somewhere on the BPD/NPD spectrum or so enmeshed

that they may as well be. My sister was taken to a psyc. as a teen and I

remember something about her " not having a conscience/not being able to see

consequences " in the outcome so excuses are always made for my sister's dramas

(drug abuse, illnesses, bad behavior, etc) as she " can't help it " (hmmm). There

was also a family business in the mix where both my parents worked.

> > It is usually my mother and sister tag teaming to bring me down (or them

up?) but my father will join in too. So as I see it at the moment it's usually

me as the all bad / scapegoat. I think my mother and sister are queen/waif types

where my father is a hermit type. I am the child that " never does anything to

help " and " never completes anything " and is always being told to " be nice to

your sister " .

> > My one safe place was my Nan (father's mother) who spoke value into me as a

child and young adult; unfortunately I lost her when I was 19. She was an

amazing woman who is the mother of my heart – I miss her still.

> > I have been instinctively maintaining a superficial and low contact

relationship with my FOO since I was legally/financially able to. I decided this

year that I did not want to go through the usual Christmas day hoo-ha and so

opted out (politely – I got someone else to read the email) and received a

particularly toxic reply - lots of FOG. The email, whilst horrid, actually did

me a favor – it gave me the key to unlocking the puzzle – she blamed a 9yr old

me for all the family's pain and dysfunction apparently because " I shut them out

of my life " – WTF??? She also told me that I was cold hearted and uncaring and

unless I changed my attitude I would never have a proper family relationship. I

haven't responded but may need to at some point.

> > I started my search with how children deal with trauma (my mother had a CVA

when I was 9 and was hospitalized for months coming home with multiple side

effects including epilepsy – yep no counseling and I had to grow up FAST and

take on quite a bit as my father disappeared into his work). So I'm now looking

at PTSD which explains a lot of my detachment and other depressive behaviors

during high school. But that only felt like it told half the story so I kept

looking and came across BPD/NPD which sounded eerily familiar and as so many

people here have said " did we have the same parents? " .

> > The FOO behavior that clinched the deal for me this year was that my sister

remembered my son's birthday and forgot my daughter's; my mother forgot my son's

birthday and remembered my daughter's. It's almost as if they are trying to

divvy up my children between them so they can have one each. The kids are now 10

and 12 and are smart. They have been asking " how come mummy is so nice when

nanna (my mother) is so horrible " and they do not want to visit with my FOO any

more, they've had enough of what they describe as my FOO's bullying behavior

towards me (yes my FOO dumps on me in front of my kids and always has done,

maybe I'll go into that another time). They also blow off the FOG for what it

is.

> > This Christmas was the most relaxed and enjoyable one I think I have ever

had (no FOO drama) and since finding this list I have felt more at peace and

sane than I have ever felt. I'm in a good place right now but know I have a long

way to go.

> > So here I am, trying to understand, learn and heal. I am looking into

therapy (my work offers a free service) and am in the process of getting hold of

SWOE, etc. I'm really quite stable considering but I still question my judgment

and ask myself if I am overreacting as the behaviors are so insidious as to be

easily disregarded by most people even as I sit writing this.

> > Thank you for taking the time to read. I look forward to getting to know you

all.

> > LT

> >

>

[Guest guest]

Hello all,

Remember the 1989 movie Parenthood, starring Steve ? Keanu Reeves was an

unknown, and played the abused boyfriend of Steve 's character's teen

daughter. I just love this quote, from Keanu Reeves, when asked about his

father's abuse:

" You know, Mrs. Buckman, you need a license to buy a dog, to drive a car - hell,

you even need a license to catch a fish. But they'll let any butt-reaming

asshole be a father. "

How insightful!

Away from the Fire

> > >

> > >

> > > Hi all,

> > > I joined the list about a week ago after some toxic fallout followed by a

lot of searching and cascading light bulb moments. I've been reading like crazy

since I joined and I must say a big thank you to you all for helping me to feel

like I'm not crazy after all.

> > > Here's a bit about me:

> > > I'm 39, married to a wonderful man and have 2 incredible children. I have

two university qualifications (only one in my FOO to have gone to uni) and have

always held down jobs successfully (I'm good at what I do). The thing is I have

a real problem with self worth and believing that other people actually want me

around or that anything I do is up to standard. It has taken years for my

husband to get me used to receiving compliments, accepting unconditional love

and being able to accept gifts without asking " what's the catch " . I detach, over

think everything and am overly self critical (yes there has been some honest

self appraisal going on � it's been a big year with a lot of breakthroughs

with lies revealed for what they are).

> > > Both my parents are only children and I have a younger sister. I now

strongly suspect that all 3 are somewhere on the BPD/NPD spectrum or so enmeshed

that they may as well be. My sister was taken to a psyc. as a teen and I

remember something about her " not having a conscience/not being able to see

consequences " in the outcome so excuses are always made for my sister's dramas

(drug abuse, illnesses, bad behavior, etc) as she " can't help it " (hmmm). There

was also a family business in the mix where both my parents worked.

> > > It is usually my mother and sister tag teaming to bring me down (or them

up?) but my father will join in too. So as I see it at the moment it's usually

me as the all bad / scapegoat. I think my mother and sister are queen/waif types

where my father is a hermit type. I am the child that " never does anything to

help " and " never completes anything " and is always being told to " be nice to

your sister " .

> > > My one safe place was my Nan (father's mother) who spoke value into me as

a child and young adult; unfortunately I lost her when I was 19. She was an

amazing woman who is the mother of my heart � I miss her still.

> > > I have been instinctively maintaining a superficial and low contact

relationship with my FOO since I was legally/financially able to. I decided this

year that I did not want to go through the usual Christmas day hoo-ha and so

opted out (politely � I got someone else to read the email) and received a

particularly toxic reply - lots of FOG. The email, whilst horrid, actually did

me a favor � it gave me the key to unlocking the puzzle � she blamed a 9yr

old me for all the family's pain and dysfunction apparently because " I shut them

out of my life " � WTF??? She also told me that I was cold hearted and uncaring

and unless I changed my attitude I would never have a proper family

relationship. I haven't responded but may need to at some point.

> > > I started my search with how children deal with trauma (my mother had a

CVA when I was 9 and was hospitalized for months coming home with multiple side

effects including epilepsy � yep no counseling and I had to grow up FAST and

take on quite a bit as my father disappeared into his work). So I'm now looking

at PTSD which explains a lot of my detachment and other depressive behaviors

during high school. But that only felt like it told half the story so I kept

looking and came across BPD/NPD which sounded eerily familiar and as so many

people here have said " did we have the same parents? " .

> > > The FOO behavior that clinched the deal for me this year was that my

sister remembered my son's birthday and forgot my daughter's; my mother forgot

my son's birthday and remembered my daughter's. It's almost as if they are

trying to divvy up my children between them so they can have one each. The kids

are now 10 and 12 and are smart. They have been asking " how come mummy is so

nice when nanna (my mother) is so horrible " and they do not want to visit with

my FOO any more, they've had enough of what they describe as my FOO's bullying

behavior towards me (yes my FOO dumps on me in front of my kids and always has

done, maybe I'll go into that another time). They also blow off the FOG for what

it is.

> > > This Christmas was the most relaxed and enjoyable one I think I have ever

had (no FOO drama) and since finding this list I have felt more at peace and

sane than I have ever felt. I'm in a good place right now but know I have a long

way to go.

> > > So here I am, trying to understand, learn and heal. I am looking into

therapy (my work offers a free service) and am in the process of getting hold of

SWOE, etc. I'm really quite stable considering but I still question my judgment

and ask myself if I am overreacting as the behaviors are so insidious as to be

easily disregarded by most people even as I sit writing this.

> > > Thank you for taking the time to read. I look forward to getting to know

you all.

> > > LT

> > >

> >

>

>

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

I always liked that movie so much. I agree: that line of Reeve'e character

rings so true. I'd just add to it " ...and they'll let any mentally deranged

demon from hell be a mother. "

-Annie

>

> Hello all,

>

> Remember the 1989 movie Parenthood, starring Steve ? Keanu Reeves was

an unknown, and played the abused boyfriend of Steve 's character's teen

daughter. I just love this quote, from Keanu Reeves, when asked about his

father's abuse:

>

> " You know, Mrs. Buckman, you need a license to buy a dog, to drive a car -

hell, you even need a license to catch a fish. But they'll let any butt-reaming

asshole be a father. "

>

> How insightful!

>

> Away from the Fire

[Guest guest]

Annie,

I for one agree with you. The issue of emotional health of children needs to be

taken as seriously as physical health. Not just for the benefit of the children

involved but society as a whole.

I recently found out through my friends mum, who is a social worker, that they

only consider the physical health of the children, when deciding if a child is

in danger. As someone with with a BPD mum who had social workers visiting my

home as a child, I feel let down that none of them did anything. In fact they

made it worse by saying that there 'was clearly nothing wrong' (my Nada is high

functioning). My mother has ever since reminded my sister and I of this -

strengthening our belief that the problem was with us.

Instead I had to endure 32 years of mild depression and 3 years of severe

depression and from reading the stories on this site that seems a sadly familiar

tale. Why do so many people have to suffer like this?

And I don't think it needs to cost a lot. Awareness could do so much. Why isn't

good parenting taught in schools? Schools are meant to prepare you for a

fulfilling happy life aren't they?

As well as making us a happier society it could also have long term financial

benefits. Most of the prison population in the UK is, according to Baron-Cohen

in 'Zero degrees of Empathy' (an excellent read BTW), made up of Borderlines and

Psycopaths. Surely investing in prevention now will mean less spend on a

criminal justice system in 15/20 years time?

> > >

> > >

> > > Hi all,

> > > I joined the list about a week ago after some toxic fallout followed by a

lot of searching and cascading light bulb moments. I've been reading like crazy

since I joined and I must say a big thank you to you all for helping me to feel

like I'm not crazy after all.

> > > Here's a bit about me:

> > > I'm 39, married to a wonderful man and have 2 incredible children. I have

two university qualifications (only one in my FOO to have gone to uni) and have

always held down jobs successfully (I'm good at what I do). The thing is I have

a real problem with self worth and believing that other people actually want me

around or that anything I do is up to standard. It has taken years for my

husband to get me used to receiving compliments, accepting unconditional love

and being able to accept gifts without asking " what's the catch " . I detach, over

think everything and am overly self critical (yes there has been some honest

self appraisal going on – it's been a big year with a lot of breakthroughs with

lies revealed for what they are).

> > > Both my parents are only children and I have a younger sister. I now

strongly suspect that all 3 are somewhere on the BPD/NPD spectrum or so enmeshed

that they may as well be. My sister was taken to a psyc. as a teen and I

remember something about her " not having a conscience/not being able to see

consequences " in the outcome so excuses are always made for my sister's dramas

(drug abuse, illnesses, bad behavior, etc) as she " can't help it " (hmmm). There

was also a family business in the mix where both my parents worked.

> > > It is usually my mother and sister tag teaming to bring me down (or them

up?) but my father will join in too. So as I see it at the moment it's usually

me as the all bad / scapegoat. I think my mother and sister are queen/waif types

where my father is a hermit type. I am the child that " never does anything to

help " and " never completes anything " and is always being told to " be nice to

your sister " .

> > > My one safe place was my Nan (father's mother) who spoke value into me as

a child and young adult; unfortunately I lost her when I was 19. She was an

amazing woman who is the mother of my heart – I miss her still.

> > > I have been instinctively maintaining a superficial and low contact

relationship with my FOO since I was legally/financially able to. I decided this

year that I did not want to go through the usual Christmas day hoo-ha and so

opted out (politely – I got someone else to read the email) and received a

particularly toxic reply - lots of FOG. The email, whilst horrid, actually did

me a favor – it gave me the key to unlocking the puzzle – she blamed a 9yr old

me for all the family's pain and dysfunction apparently because " I shut them out

of my life " – WTF??? She also told me that I was cold hearted and uncaring and

unless I changed my attitude I would never have a proper family relationship. I

haven't responded but may need to at some point.

> > > I started my search with how children deal with trauma (my mother had a

CVA when I was 9 and was hospitalized for months coming home with multiple side

effects including epilepsy – yep no counseling and I had to grow up FAST and

take on quite a bit as my father disappeared into his work). So I'm now looking

at PTSD which explains a lot of my detachment and other depressive behaviors

during high school. But that only felt like it told half the story so I kept

looking and came across BPD/NPD which sounded eerily familiar and as so many

people here have said " did we have the same parents? " .

> > > The FOO behavior that clinched the deal for me this year was that my

sister remembered my son's birthday and forgot my daughter's; my mother forgot

my son's birthday and remembered my daughter's. It's almost as if they are

trying to divvy up my children between them so they can have one each. The kids

are now 10 and 12 and are smart. They have been asking " how come mummy is so

nice when nanna (my mother) is so horrible " and they do not want to visit with

my FOO any more, they've had enough of what they describe as my FOO's bullying

behavior towards me (yes my FOO dumps on me in front of my kids and always has

done, maybe I'll go into that another time). They also blow off the FOG for what

it is.

> > > This Christmas was the most relaxed and enjoyable one I think I have ever

had (no FOO drama) and since finding this list I have felt more at peace and

sane than I have ever felt. I'm in a good place right now but know I have a long

way to go.

> > > So here I am, trying to understand, learn and heal. I am looking into

therapy (my work offers a free service) and am in the process of getting hold of

SWOE, etc. I'm really quite stable considering but I still question my judgment

and ask myself if I am overreacting as the behaviors are so insidious as to be

easily disregarded by most people even as I sit writing this.

> > > Thank you for taking the time to read. I look forward to getting to know

you all.

> > > LT

> > >

> >

>

[Guest guest]

Yes indeed, it sounds like you and I (and probably more than a few members here)

are on the same page RE the need for very thorough and on-going public education

about what ARE the criteria for being a " good enough " parent, demonstrating

clearly the difference between mentally healthy behaviors and mentally ill,

abusive, toxic, soul-destroying behaviors.

Big thumb's up of approval from me.

-Annie

>

> Annie,

> I for one agree with you. The issue of emotional health of children needs to

be taken as seriously as physical health. Not just for the benefit of the

children involved but society as a whole.

>

> I recently found out through my friends mum, who is a social worker, that they

only consider the physical health of the children, when deciding if a child is

in danger. As someone with with a BPD mum who had social workers visiting my

home as a child, I feel let down that none of them did anything. In fact they

made it worse by saying that there 'was clearly nothing wrong' (my Nada is high

functioning). My mother has ever since reminded my sister and I of this -

strengthening our belief that the problem was with us.

>

> Instead I had to endure 32 years of mild depression and 3 years of severe

depression and from reading the stories on this site that seems a sadly familiar

tale. Why do so many people have to suffer like this?

>

> And I don't think it needs to cost a lot. Awareness could do so much. Why

isn't good parenting taught in schools? Schools are meant to prepare you for a

fulfilling happy life aren't they?

>

> As well as making us a happier society it could also have long term financial

benefits. Most of the prison population in the UK is, according to Baron-Cohen

in 'Zero degrees of Empathy' (an excellent read BTW), made up of Borderlines and

Psycopaths. Surely investing in prevention now will mean less spend on a

criminal justice system in 15/20 years time?

>

>