Guest guest Posted December 28, 2006 Report Share Posted December 28, 2006 Dear Loop friends, Everything I read associates Hashimoto's with HYPO, and Graves with HYPER. The first endocrinologist I saw confirmed I was both Hashi and hyper, which seems pretty unusual. He said, however, that folks with Hashi's can flip back and forth between the two types, and wanted me to wait another 4 weeks (it had been 2 since my last bloodwork), and have another bloodwork analysis -- to see if the hyper holds. Anyone else have Hashi's with hyper? Or, who has flip-flopped between the two? If so, can you associate anything biological with the flip, or was it produced by meds? I've been eating like a horse and think I've actually succeeded in gaining weight with hyperthyroidism, surprisingly. I wonder if something like that can flip a person from hypo to hyper. Also, I feel like I have symptoms from both sides, and certainly don't have all the " hyper " symptoms. I know that no one has to experience *all* symptoms, but I feel like I'm half and half... which seems odd. Still a newbie with this, so I apologize if this are SUPER basic Q's, Mel Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 28, 2006 Report Share Posted December 28, 2006 i was dx with hypot in 1992, went from 110lbs to 175 lbs in just a few months. Was put on syn. lost 25 lbs, did not eat much and craved starches and sugar, then in 1996 i went hyper and lost all the weight and was taken off syn. went hypo again in 2000 gained up to 175 again. stopped eating not hungry at all. it was not until this year that i found out that i have hashi, and it was only because i did the research and asked for the TPO test. i am now on armour and keeping the TSH suppressed and the free T3 and T4 in the upper ranges. i feeling much better but have found that i have adreanl stress due to not being treating properly for years and I never felt well on syn. still learning and doing as much reading and research as possible. my dr was impressed with the research i did and that i found that Canary club and did the adr stress index myself. > > Anyone else have Hashi's with hyper? Or, who has flip-flopped between > the two? If so, can you associate anything biological with the flip, or > was it produced by meds? I've been eating like a horse and think I've > actually succeeded in gaining weight with hyperthyroidism, > surprisingly. I wonder if something like that can flip a person from > hypo to hyper. Also, I feel like I have symptoms from both sides, and > certainly don't have all the " hyper " symptoms. I know that no one has > to experience *all* symptoms, but I feel like I'm half and half... which > seems odd. > > Still a newbie with this, so I apologize if this are SUPER basic Q's, > Mel > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 28, 2006 Report Share Posted December 28, 2006 WOW , that's incredible -- you certainly have gone through a lot with this! So it truly *is* possible to have Hashi's and hyper -- I assume you had Hashi's back in 1996 when you " went hyper, " even though you were *just* diagnosed this year with it. I wonder if you took meds for the hyperthyroidism, when diagnosed, to regulate it? I totally " get it " about the adrenal stress -- in fact, the book I'm reading, The Thyroid Solution, talks about how much misery people can have because of improper treatment or diagnosis errors or omissions. Thanks much for responding to my questions. I don't have a follow-up appointment until Feb. 21, so I'm in a holding/waiting pattern right now, unfortunately. My cats are having (what sounds like) a vicious fight in the LR over the catnip Christmas toys, so I'm jumping off the 'net! gratefully, Mel wrote: > > i was dx with hypot in 1992, went from 110lbs to 175 lbs in just a > few months. Was put on syn. lost 25 lbs, did not eat much and craved > starches and sugar, then in 1996 i went hyper and lost all the weight > and was taken off syn. went hypo again in 2000 gained up to 175 > again. stopped eating not hungry at all. it was not until this year > that i found out that i have hashi, and it was only because i did the > research and asked for the TPO test. i am now on armour and keeping > the TSH suppressed and the free T3 and T4 in the upper ranges. i > feeling much better but have found that i have adreanl stress due to > not being treating properly for years and I never felt well on syn. > still learning and doing as much reading and research as possible. my > dr was impressed with the research i did and that i found that Canary > club and did the adr stress index myself. > > > > > > > Anyone else have Hashi's with hyper? Or, who has flip-flopped > between > > the two? If so, can you associate anything biological with the > flip, or > > was it produced by meds? I've been eating like a horse and think > I've > > actually succeeded in gaining weight with hyperthyroidism, > > surprisingly. I wonder if something like that can flip a person > from > > hypo to hyper. Also, I feel like I have symptoms from both sides, > and > > certainly don't have all the " hyper " symptoms. I know that no one > has > > to experience *all* symptoms, but I feel like I'm half and half... > which > > seems odd. > > > > Still a newbie with this, so I apologize if this are SUPER basic > Q's, > > Mel > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 28, 2006 Report Share Posted December 28, 2006 i did not take anything when i went hyper, i stopped the syn and then i was " normal " i wish for those days again!! Have you been to http://www.stopthethyroidmadness.com/ there is a lot of info there. Best of luck. > > WOW , that's incredible -- you certainly have gone through a lot > with this! So it truly *is* possible to have Hashi's and hyper -- I > assume you had Hashi's back in 1996 when you " went hyper, " even though > you were *just* diagnosed this year with it. I wonder if you took meds > for the hyperthyroidism, when diagnosed, to regulate it? > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 28, 2006 Report Share Posted December 28, 2006 Here is one link with an excerpt. http://vitamvas.tripod.com/ " Hashimoto's Disease occurs when there is an alteration in the body's immune system which causes the body to develop antibodies to thyroid cell components. These components are thyroid peroxidase (TPO) and thyroglobulin (TG). You could have antibodies to either or both components. Generally the onset is slow but not detected in the early progression of the disease. It results in progressive destruction of the thyroid gland. The person may experience symptoms of hyperthyroidism at first when the thyroid may actually produce too much thyroid hormones. As the thyroid antibodies attack the thyroid the person will develop symptoms of hypothyroidism. Hashimoto's eventually leads to hypothyroidism. Hashimoto's Disease is often referred to as Hashimoto's thyroiditis, autoimmune thyroiditis, lymphadenoid goiter, struma lymphomatosa, and chronic lymphocytic thyroiditis. I have read there is evidence of genetic predisposition to Hashimoto's Disease and apparently about 25% of people with Hashimoto's Disease also have another type of autoimmune disease (ex. pernicious anemia, diabetes, adrenal insufficiency). People can develop Hashimoto's disease at any age however it most commonly develops in women ages 30 to 50. It was first identified in 1912. " And another from the Merck Manual http://www.merck.com/mmpe/sec12/ch152/ch152d.html " " Symptoms, Signs, and Diagnosis Patients complain of painless enlargement of the thyroid or fullness in the throat. Examination reveals a nontender goiter that is smooth or nodular, firm, and more rubbery than the normal thyroid. Many patients present with symptoms of hypothyroidism, but some present with hyperthyroidism. Testing consists of T4, TSH, and thyroid autoantibodies; early in the disease T4 and TSH levels are normal and there are high levels of thyroid peroxidase antibodies and less commonly of antithyroglobulin antibodies. Thyroid radioactive iodine uptake may be increased, perhaps because of defective iodide organification together with a gland that continues to trap iodine. The patient later develops hypothyroidism with decreased T4, decreased thyroid radioactive iodine uptake, and increased TSH. Testing for other autoimmune disorders is warranted only when clinical manifestations are present. " Then there is Shomon's site on About.com, with excerpt. http://thyroid.about.com/od/thyroidbasicsthyroid101/a/5lies.htm " 3. You Have Graves' Disease/Hyperthyroidism and Need Radioactive Iodine (RAI) Treatment When it comes to autoimmune thyroid disease, Hashimoto's disease, which usually results in hypothyroidism, is the far more common than Graves' disease, which causes hyperthyroidism. At some stages of Hashimoto's disease, however, and in particular, often during the early stages, the thyroid that is in the process of autoimmune failure may actually spurt into action and become temporarily overactive, making a person hyperthyroid. Sometimes, it's the temporary hyperthyroidism symptoms -- anxiety, heart palpitations, fast pulse, weight loss, diarrhea, insomnia -- that first bring a Hashimoto's patient to the doctor. Unfortunately, some doctors run just the thyroid bloodwork for TSH, see the low TSH that is characteristic of hyperthyroidism, and recommend radioactive iodine treatment -- a usually permanent treatment that permanently disables the thyroid, and renders the patient hypothyroid for life. The problem is, the patient doesn't suffer form Graves' disease and the hyperthyroidism is just temporary " Hashitoxicosis " -- and the patient is ultimately on his or her way to becoming hypothyroid. In some cases, then, unless the hyperthyroidism was life-threatening and uncontrollable using drugs, the expensive radiation treatment -- whose side effects are still being debated -- is needless administered. If you are told that you have Graves' Disease or hyperthyroidism, and are rushed to have RAI, insist on blood tests for various antibodies, as well as imaging tests, to demonstrate that you do indeed have Graves'/hyperthyroidism, and are not just experiencing temporary Hashitoxicosis. " And there are many many more, if you google " Hashimoto's Disease Causing Hyperthyroidism " . Hashi/hyper > Dear Loop friends, > Everything I read associates Hashimoto's with HYPO, and Graves with > HYPER. The first endocrinologist I saw confirmed I was both Hashi and > hyper, which seems pretty unusual. He said, however, that folks with > Hashi's can flip back and forth between the two types, and wanted me to > wait another 4 weeks (it had been 2 since my last bloodwork), and have > another bloodwork analysis -- to see if the hyper holds. > > Anyone else have Hashi's with hyper? Or, who has flip-flopped between > the two? If so, can you associate anything biological with the flip, or > was it produced by meds? I've been eating like a horse and think I've > actually succeeded in gaining weight with hyperthyroidism, > surprisingly. I wonder if something like that can flip a person from > hypo to hyper. Also, I feel like I have symptoms from both sides, and > certainly don't have all the " hyper " symptoms. I know that no one has > to experience *all* symptoms, but I feel like I'm half and half... which > seems odd. > > Still a newbie with this, so I apologize if this are SUPER basic Q's, > Mel Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 28, 2006 Report Share Posted December 28, 2006 , this is such interesting material -- particularly because in my first blood test, the problem component was thyroid peroxidase (the nurse told me that was the indicator that was " off " in the blood work). I must have antibodies to TPO, as it says in the first paragraph below. Reading this, and being helped by information posted by others, I am beginning to understand -- which is really saying something, because I felt overwhelmed before, and pretty " clueless. " Although there is much to digest here, I'm glad to have it and will study more... My thanks to you and others! It's really quite gratifying to receive help and I hope to be able to give some in the future. Maybe I can " pay it forward " .... gratefully, Mel wrote: > > Here is one link with an excerpt. > > http://vitamvas.tripod.com/ http://vitamvas.tripod.com/> > > " Hashimoto's Disease occurs when there is an alteration in the body's > immune > system which causes the body to develop antibodies to thyroid cell > components. These components are thyroid peroxidase (TPO) and > thyroglobulin > (TG). You could have antibodies to either or both components. > Generally the > onset is slow but not detected in the early progression of the > disease. It > results in progressive destruction of the thyroid gland. The person may > experience symptoms of hyperthyroidism at first when the thyroid may > actually produce too much thyroid hormones. As the thyroid antibodies > attack > the thyroid the person will develop symptoms of hypothyroidism. > Hashimoto's > eventually leads to hypothyroidism. Hashimoto's Disease is often > referred to > as Hashimoto's thyroiditis, autoimmune thyroiditis, lymphadenoid goiter, > struma lymphomatosa, and chronic lymphocytic thyroiditis. I have read > there > is evidence of genetic predisposition to Hashimoto's Disease and > apparently > about 25% of people with Hashimoto's Disease also have another type of > autoimmune disease (ex. pernicious anemia, diabetes, adrenal > insufficiency). > People can develop Hashimoto's disease at any age however it most > commonly > develops in women ages 30 to 50. It was first identified in 1912. " > > And another from the Merck Manual > > http://www.merck.com/mmpe/sec12/ch152/ch152d.html > http://www.merck.com/mmpe/sec12/ch152/ch152d.html> > > " > " Symptoms, Signs, and Diagnosis > > Patients complain of painless enlargement of the thyroid or fullness > in the > throat. Examination reveals a nontender goiter that is smooth or nodular, > firm, and more rubbery than the normal thyroid. Many patients present > with > symptoms of hypothyroidism, but some present with hyperthyroidism. > > Testing consists of T4, TSH, and thyroid autoantibodies; early in the > disease T4 and TSH levels are normal and there are high levels of thyroid > peroxidase antibodies and less commonly of antithyroglobulin antibodies. > Thyroid radioactive iodine uptake may be increased, perhaps because of > defective iodide organification together with a gland that continues > to trap > iodine. The patient later develops hypothyroidism with decreased T4, > decreased thyroid radioactive iodine uptake, and increased TSH. > Testing for > other autoimmune disorders is warranted only when clinical manifestations > are present. " > > Then there is Shomon's site on About.com, with excerpt. > > http://thyroid.about.com/od/thyroidbasicsthyroid101/a/5lies.htm > http://thyroid.about.com/od/thyroidbasicsthyroid101/a/5lies.htm> > > " > 3. You Have Graves' Disease/Hyperthyroidism and Need Radioactive Iodine > (RAI) Treatment > > When it comes to autoimmune thyroid disease, Hashimoto's disease, which > usually results in hypothyroidism, is the far more common than Graves' > disease, which causes hyperthyroidism. At some stages of Hashimoto's > disease, however, and in particular, often during the early stages, the > thyroid that is in the process of autoimmune failure may actually > spurt into > action and become temporarily overactive, making a person hyperthyroid. > Sometimes, it's the temporary hyperthyroidism symptoms -- anxiety, heart > palpitations, fast pulse, weight loss, diarrhea, insomnia -- that first > bring a Hashimoto's patient to the doctor. Unfortunately, some doctors > run > just the thyroid bloodwork for TSH, see the low TSH that is > characteristic > of hyperthyroidism, and recommend radioactive iodine treatment -- a > usually > permanent treatment that permanently disables the thyroid, and renders > the > patient hypothyroid for life. The problem is, the patient doesn't suffer > form Graves' disease and the hyperthyroidism is just temporary > " Hashitoxicosis " -- and the patient is ultimately on his or her way to > becoming hypothyroid. In some cases, then, unless the hyperthyroidism was > life-threatening and uncontrollable using drugs, the expensive radiation > treatment -- whose side effects are still being debated -- is needless > administered. > > If you are told that you have Graves' Disease or hyperthyroidism, and are > rushed to have RAI, insist on blood tests for various antibodies, as > well as > imaging tests, to demonstrate that you do indeed have > Graves'/hyperthyroidism, and are not just experiencing temporary > Hashitoxicosis. " > > And there are many many more, if you google " Hashimoto's Disease Causing > Hyperthyroidism " . > > > > Hashi/hyper > > > Dear Loop friends, > > Everything I read associates Hashimoto's with HYPO, and Graves with > > HYPER. The first endocrinologist I saw confirmed I was both Hashi and > > hyper, which seems pretty unusual. He said, however, that folks with > > Hashi's can flip back and forth between the two types, and wanted me to > > wait another 4 weeks (it had been 2 since my last bloodwork), and have > > another bloodwork analysis -- to see if the hyper holds. > > > > Anyone else have Hashi's with hyper? Or, who has flip-flopped between > > the two? If so, can you associate anything biological with the flip, or > > was it produced by meds? I've been eating like a horse and think I've > > actually succeeded in gaining weight with hyperthyroidism, > > surprisingly. I wonder if something like that can flip a person from > > hypo to hyper. Also, I feel like I have symptoms from both sides, and > > certainly don't have all the " hyper " symptoms. I know that no one has > > to experience *all* symptoms, but I feel like I'm half and half... which > > seems odd. > > > > Still a newbie with this, so I apologize if this are SUPER basic Q's, > > Mel > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 28, 2006 Report Share Posted December 28, 2006 I've got BOTH antibodies and both in the thousands, lol. Can you immagine what my thyroid probably looks like by now? They are hungry little devils. We're talking about 13 yrs ago or so, the last time my thyroid was ever scanned. It looked normal then, but then I had just been diagnosed. I did my own antibody testing, finally, about 3 yrs or so ago, cause I couldn't get anyone else to do it, and that's what I found. Re: Hashi/hyper > , this is such interesting material -- particularly because in my > first blood test, the problem component was thyroid peroxidase (the > nurse told me that was the indicator that was " off " in the blood work). > I must have antibodies to TPO, as it says in the first paragraph below. > Reading this, and being helped by information posted by others, I am > beginning to understand -- which is really saying something, because I > felt overwhelmed before, and pretty " clueless. " Although there is much > to digest here, I'm glad to have it and will study more... > > My thanks to you and others! It's really quite gratifying to receive > help and I hope to be able to give some in the future. Maybe I can " pay > it forward " .... > > gratefully, > Mel Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 28, 2006 Report Share Posted December 28, 2006 > > Dear Loop friends, > Everything I read associates Hashimoto's with HYPO, and Graves with > HYPER. The first endocrinologist I saw confirmed I was both Hashi and > hyper, which seems pretty unusual. He said, however, that folks with > Hashi's can flip back and forth between the two types, and wanted me to > wait another 4 weeks (it had been 2 since my last bloodwork), and have > another bloodwork analysis -- to see if the hyper holds. > > Anyone else have Hashi's with hyper? Or, who has flip-flopped between > the two? If so, can you associate anything biological with the flip, or > was it produced by meds? I've been eating like a horse and think I've > actually succeeded in gaining weight with hyperthyroidism, > surprisingly. I wonder if something like that can flip a person from > hypo to hyper. Also, I feel like I have symptoms from both sides, and > certainly don't have all the " hyper " symptoms. I know that no one has > to experience *all* symptoms, but I feel like I'm half and half... which > seems odd. > > Still a newbie with this, so I apologize if this are SUPER basic Q's, > Mel > You want to make sure the doctor runs proper antibody testing on you.. TSI..thyroid stimulating antibody..this is for Graves..be warned they use a range like 130% or 1.3 for positive meaning you could be at 100% and considered negative..although in a true sense less than 2% is considered negative. TBII..this is thyroid blocking antibodies, the reason why some people with graves go hypo or have high TSI and are eurothyroid. TPO, TG..these antibodies are inflammation markers for the thyroid. Both TPO and TG only exsist inside the thyroid, as the thyroid is damaged by inflammation these leak into the blood stream and being foriegn to the bloodstream the body produces antibodies towards them. Being markers of inflammation both those with Hashi's and Grave's and even those with out thyroid disorders can have TPO..the difference is with a normal range of 0-35..those with no thyroid disorder or with graves will be in range..or just above range..those with hashi's are usually seen in the hundreds, although I have seen medical papers that suggest 5 times the normal range to be positive( 175 or higher)and some that say anything above 35 is positive for hashi's.. Now the early stages of Hashi's tend to go something like this.. The thyroid is attacked by antibodies, these antibodies cause cell destruction, this cell destruction releases stored up hormone( different from Grave's where the thyroid produces extra hormones) this release of stored hormones causes temporary hyperthyroidism, the attack on the thyroid lessens, the thyroid returns to normal ( maybe just a little less depending on cell destruction) ..this process than repeats , the hyper getting a little less each time and the hypo getting a little more each time. Hashi's literally does cause permanent cell destruction of the thyroid gland.. Now remember TSH is thyroid stimulating hormone, stimulation of the thyroid increases thyroid cell destruction as it increases antibodies against the thyroid. With Hashi's regardless of hyper or hypo( except T3 toxicity) the idea is to use Synthroid in full replacement doses to supress the TSH to stop thyroid stimulation.. With Grave's TSI antibodies attach directly to the TSH cell receptors of the thyroid stimualting the thyroid regardless of TSH.. Now the reason I post this..using antithyroid drugs with Hashi's will block the thyroid from producing excessive hormones..this will increase the TSH which will stimulate the thyroid..which will increase antibodies against the thyroid.. Using Synthroid with Grave's is like adding fuel to the fire.. the thyroid gland is already stimulated and producing excessive hormone regardless of the TSH.. The important thing here is to confirm the reason for your thyroid disorder, other things such as toxic nodules,temporary thyroiditis etc. need to be looked at also..but you need to know for sure before you start treatment. Kats3boys Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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