Re: Rat poison (was Natural Blood thinner)

[Guest guest]

Hi Jim and Lil,

Coumadin works by blocking the effects of vitamin K in the body. Unfortunately,

vitamin K does a lot of other things in addition to making blood clot. Research

has

shown that inadequate levels of K are associated with increased incidence of

osteoporosis and calcification of the arteries, both common events in older

people.

There is also some evidence suggesting a role for K in preventing Alzheimer's

and

some cancers.

A small study at the University of Texas last year found that patients who have

trouble keeping their INR in the correct range had fewer fluctuations outside of

the

desired levels when they supplemented with 100 mcg/day of K. This is another

area

where research is out ahead of clinical practice.

For those with AF who are not taking Coumadin because their risk profile doesn't

call

for it, there are several nutritional supplements that can thin blood somewhat.

These include ginger, fish oil, bromelain, Vitamin E, (mixed tocopherols with

tocotrienols is the preferable form), and nattokinase. None of these will do

the job of

coumadin and should not be substituted for it by anyone at serious risk of

stroke.

Nattokinase in particular has very strong epidemiological evidence supporting

it's use

for stroke risk reduction. This is not a cheap supplement though, so I only take

it

when an episode occurs.

Supplements have a lot to offer, but need to be used carefully and with some

awareness of the possible downsides in the same way that Rx drugs should be

treated with respect. When you research something like this on the 'net look

for

information that has been published it peer-reviewed journals. Anybody can call

themselves a doctor and make grand claims, but if it isn't backed up by

published

research I'd be suspicious.

H

> Guess what, Jim. I bet if you fed rats enough Vitamin E to thin their

> blood so that they were at a very high INR ... they'd die from the

> same thing they die of on coumadin...hemmorhage! I'd really like to

> see us stop calling Coumadin " rat poison. " It is a blood thinner that

> was used to kill rats because it was not given in therapeutic doses

> but overdosed. Once again, Coumadin is *not* " Raid for Rats. " I

> also suspect that if you thin your blood, no matter *what* you use,

> you are going to have the same kinds of side-effects (bruising,

> potential bleeds) that you would have with Coumadin. I'd like to hear

> one of our medical professionals weigh in on this - I have a lot to

> learn, I am sure. Lil

>

> In a message dated 4/16/2006 1:56:28 P.M. Pacific Standard Time,

> jshowker@... writes:

>

> But, if you have a need to thin your blood and you could choose a

> natural, safe product that does not cause death under any

> circumstances, or, choose rat poison. . . . Well, it's a pretty easy

> choice for me. )

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Oh, please. Can we just stop calling it rat poison? This is not

helpful.

>

> Hi Jim and Lil,

>

> Coumadin works by blocking the effects of vitamin K in the body.

Unfortunately,

> vitamin K does a lot of other things in addition to making blood

clot. Research has

> shown that inadequate levels of K are associated with increased

incidence of

> osteoporosis and calcification of the arteries, both common events

in older people.

> There is also some evidence suggesting a role for K in preventing

Alzheimer's and

> some cancers.

>

> A small study at the University of Texas last year found that

patients who have

> trouble keeping their INR in the correct range had fewer

fluctuations outside of the

> desired levels when they supplemented with 100 mcg/day of K. This is

another area

> where research is out ahead of clinical practice.

>

> For those with AF who are not taking Coumadin because their risk

profile doesn't call

> for it, there are several nutritional supplements that can thin

blood somewhat.

> These include ginger, fish oil, bromelain, Vitamin E, (mixed

tocopherols with

> tocotrienols is the preferable form), and nattokinase. None of

these will do the job of

> coumadin and should not be substituted for it by anyone at serious

risk of stroke.

> Nattokinase in particular has very strong epidemiological evidence

supporting it's use

> for stroke risk reduction. This is not a cheap supplement though, so

I only take it

> when an episode occurs.

>

> Supplements have a lot to offer, but need to be used carefully and

with some

> awareness of the possible downsides in the same way that Rx drugs

should be

> treated with respect. When you research something like this on the

'net look for

> information that has been published it peer-reviewed journals.

Anybody can call

> themselves a doctor and make grand claims, but if it isn't backed up

by published

> research I'd be suspicious.

>

> H

>

>

> > Guess what, Jim. I bet if you fed rats enough Vitamin E to thin their

> > blood so that they were at a very high INR ... they'd die from the

> > same thing they die of on coumadin...hemmorhage! I'd really like to

> > see us stop calling Coumadin " rat poison. " It is a blood thinner that

> > was used to kill rats because it was not given in therapeutic doses

> > but overdosed. Once again, Coumadin is *not* " Raid for Rats. " I

> > also suspect that if you thin your blood, no matter *what* you use,

> > you are going to have the same kinds of side-effects (bruising,

> > potential bleeds) that you would have with Coumadin. I'd like to hear

> > one of our medical professionals weigh in on this - I have a lot to

> > learn, I am sure. Lil

> >

> > In a message dated 4/16/2006 1:56:28 P.M. Pacific Standard Time,

> > jshowker@... writes:

> >

> > But, if you have a need to thin your blood and you could choose a

> > natural, safe product that does not cause death under any

> > circumstances, or, choose rat poison. . . . Well, it's a pretty easy

> > choice for me. )

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

[Guest guest]

Thanks for that info .

There are a number of people here, including myself, who have

various reasons to be reluctant to take wafarin. Some people cannot

tolerate it physically; some have been put off by seeing the effect

and risk it has for other people, maybe family members (I come into

this category), and some just don't feel they need it. For these

AFibbers, finding an effective alternative is very important and any

information in this regard is very welcome.

Sue

>

> Hi Jim and Lil,

>

> Coumadin works by blocking the effects of vitamin K in the body.

Unfortunately,

> vitamin K does a lot of other things in addition to making blood

clot. Research has

> shown that inadequate levels of K are associated with increased

incidence of

> osteoporosis and calcification of the arteries, both common events

in older people.

> There is also some evidence suggesting a role for K in preventing

Alzheimer's and

> some cancers.

>

> A small study at the University of Texas last year found that

patients who have

> trouble keeping their INR in the correct range had fewer

fluctuations outside of the

> desired levels when they supplemented with 100 mcg/day of K. This

is another area

> where research is out ahead of clinical practice.

>

> For those with AF who are not taking Coumadin because their risk

profile doesn't call

> for it, there are several nutritional supplements that can thin

blood somewhat.

> These include ginger, fish oil, bromelain, Vitamin E, (mixed

tocopherols with

> tocotrienols is the preferable form), and nattokinase. None of

these will do the job of

> coumadin and should not be substituted for it by anyone at serious

risk of stroke.

> Nattokinase in particular has very strong epidemiological evidence

supporting it's use

> for stroke risk reduction. This is not a cheap supplement though,

so I only take it

> when an episode occurs.

>

> Supplements have a lot to offer, but need to be used carefully and

with some

> awareness of the possible downsides in the same way that Rx drugs

should be

> treated with respect. When you research something like this on

the 'net look for

> information that has been published it peer-reviewed journals.

Anybody can call

> themselves a doctor and make grand claims, but if it isn't backed

up by published

> research I'd be suspicious.

>

> H

>

>

> > Guess what, Jim. I bet if you fed rats enough Vitamin E to thin

their

> > blood so that they were at a very high INR ... they'd die from

the

> > same thing they die of on coumadin...hemmorhage! I'd really

like to

> > see us stop calling Coumadin " rat poison. " It is a blood

thinner that

> > was used to kill rats because it was not given in therapeutic

doses

> > but overdosed. Once again, Coumadin is *not* " Raid for

Rats. " I

> > also suspect that if you thin your blood, no matter *what* you

use,

> > you are going to have the same kinds of side-effects (bruising,

> > potential bleeds) that you would have with Coumadin. I'd like

to hear

> > one of our medical professionals weigh in on this - I have a

lot to

> > learn, I am sure. Lil

> >

> > In a message dated 4/16/2006 1:56:28 P.M. Pacific Standard Time,

> > jshowker@... writes:

> >

> > But, if you have a need to thin your blood and you could choose

a

> > natural, safe product that does not cause death under any

> > circumstances, or, choose rat poison. . . . Well, it's a

pretty easy

> > choice for me. )

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

[Guest guest]

I meant to add Gingko Biloba to your list . Effective but also

expensive.

BTW, I think you (or someone!)also mentioned that Warfarin does not

work by thinning the blood.

FYI:

http://www.anticoagulationeurope.org/aboutace.html

> >

> > Hi Jim and Lil,

> >

> > Coumadin works by blocking the effects of vitamin K in the body.

> Unfortunately,

> > vitamin K does a lot of other things in addition to making blood

> clot. Research has

> > shown that inadequate levels of K are associated with increased

> incidence of

> > osteoporosis and calcification of the arteries, both common

events

> in older people.

> > There is also some evidence suggesting a role for K in

preventing

> Alzheimer's and

> > some cancers.

> >

> > A small study at the University of Texas last year found that

> patients who have

> > trouble keeping their INR in the correct range had fewer

> fluctuations outside of the

> > desired levels when they supplemented with 100 mcg/day of K.

This

> is another area

> > where research is out ahead of clinical practice.

> >

> > For those with AF who are not taking Coumadin because their risk

> profile doesn't call

> > for it, there are several nutritional supplements that can thin

> blood somewhat.

> > These include ginger, fish oil, bromelain, Vitamin E, (mixed

> tocopherols with

> > tocotrienols is the preferable form), and nattokinase. None of

> these will do the job of

> > coumadin and should not be substituted for it by anyone at

serious

> risk of stroke.

> > Nattokinase in particular has very strong epidemiological

evidence

> supporting it's use

> > for stroke risk reduction. This is not a cheap supplement

though,

> so I only take it

> > when an episode occurs.

> >

> > Supplements have a lot to offer, but need to be used carefully

and

> with some

> > awareness of the possible downsides in the same way that Rx

drugs

> should be

> > treated with respect. When you research something like this on

> the 'net look for

> > information that has been published it peer-reviewed journals.

> Anybody can call

> > themselves a doctor and make grand claims, but if it isn't

backed

> up by published

> > research I'd be suspicious.

> >

> > H

> >

> >

> > > Guess what, Jim. I bet if you fed rats enough Vitamin E to

thin

> their

> > > blood so that they were at a very high INR ... they'd die

from

> the

> > > same thing they die of on coumadin...hemmorhage! I'd really

> like to

> > > see us stop calling Coumadin " rat poison. " It is a blood

> thinner that

> > > was used to kill rats because it was not given in therapeutic

> doses

> > > but overdosed. Once again, Coumadin is *not* " Raid for

> Rats. " I

> > > also suspect that if you thin your blood, no matter *what*

you

> use,

> > > you are going to have the same kinds of side-effects

(bruising,

> > > potential bleeds) that you would have with Coumadin. I'd like

> to hear

> > > one of our medical professionals weigh in on this - I have a

> lot to

> > > learn, I am sure. Lil

> > >

> > > In a message dated 4/16/2006 1:56:28 P.M. Pacific Standard

Time,

> > > jshowker@ writes:

> > >

> > > But, if you have a need to thin your blood and you could

choose

> a

> > > natural, safe product that does not cause death under any

> > > circumstances, or, choose rat poison. . . . Well, it's a

> pretty easy

> > > choice for me. )

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

[Guest guest]

It is my understanding that Vitamin E works as a blood thinner by affecting

the VitaminK levels, somehow. I just tried to find the reference I read,

but couldn't find it.

I did find this though:

" Vitamin E researcher Ishwarlal Jialal, MD, of the University of Texas

Medical Center in Dallas, says that he becomes concerned when people on

Coumadin take more than 800 IU of E.

I must have seen 10 references to this very thing on the web. My question

is, well, if Vitamin E enhances the blood thinning effect, why not take more

Vitamin E and less coumadin? This never even seems to occur as a thought

process to a doctor, even though coumadin is very dangerous with lots of

side effects, and E is relatively benign. Can you imagine being able to buy

E over the counter if it actually put people's lives at risk? Or how about

this-- Can you imagine being able to buy coumadin over the counter?

Doctors are so tied in to the pharmaceutical world, with all the free

samples from the weekly drug rep visits and many of them being on drug

company payrolls for one reason or another. I have a cousin who is an

internist and his story of working for a drug company is amazing.

> For these

> AFibbers, finding an effective alternative (to coumadin) is very important

and any

> information in this regard is very welcome.

You could always try the coumadin replacement procedure, using Vitamin E or

other natural thinners, it might work for you. You could increase your E

dose by 200 iu each week monitoring the protime test and gradually reduce

the coumadin as needed. I would point out to you that you, or your

insurance company pay the doctor, not the other way around. He works for

you. He is not god. You could tell him this is what you're going to do,

and not ask. He wouldn't get in trouble with other doctors if you do this

and he has no choice. If he agrees with you or approves your experiment with

E, he could lose his license or be severely reprimanded. Cranky patients

who won't take their medicine the way they are suppose to are well known in

the world of doctors. I know this to be true, cause I'm one of them. Take

charge, it's your body, your life.

Please don't take all this as advice. I aint qualified to give no advice.

Study the data, make your own decisions.

Best,

Jim

Re: Rat poison (was Natural Blood thinner)

> Thanks for that info .

> There are a number of people here, including myself, who have

> various reasons to be reluctant to take wafarin. Some people cannot

> tolerate it physically; some have been put off by seeing the effect

> and risk it has for other people, maybe family members (I come into

> this category), and some just don't feel they need it. For these

> AFibbers, finding an effective alternative is very important and any

> information in this regard is very welcome.

> Sue

>

>

>

> >

> > Hi Jim and Lil,

> >

> > Coumadin works by blocking the effects of vitamin K in the body.

> Unfortunately,

> > vitamin K does a lot of other things in addition to making blood

> clot. Research has

> > shown that inadequate levels of K are associated with increased

> incidence of

> > osteoporosis and calcification of the arteries, both common events

> in older people.

> > There is also some evidence suggesting a role for K in preventing

> Alzheimer's and

> > some cancers.

> >

> > A small study at the University of Texas last year found that

> patients who have

> > trouble keeping their INR in the correct range had fewer

> fluctuations outside of the

> > desired levels when they supplemented with 100 mcg/day of K. This

> is another area

> > where research is out ahead of clinical practice.

> >

> > For those with AF who are not taking Coumadin because their risk

> profile doesn't call

> > for it, there are several nutritional supplements that can thin

> blood somewhat.

> > These include ginger, fish oil, bromelain, Vitamin E, (mixed

> tocopherols with

> > tocotrienols is the preferable form), and nattokinase. None of

> these will do the job of

> > coumadin and should not be substituted for it by anyone at serious

> risk of stroke.

> > Nattokinase in particular has very strong epidemiological evidence

> supporting it's use

> > for stroke risk reduction. This is not a cheap supplement though,

> so I only take it

> > when an episode occurs.

> >

> > Supplements have a lot to offer, but need to be used carefully and

> with some

> > awareness of the possible downsides in the same way that Rx drugs

> should be

> > treated with respect. When you research something like this on

> the 'net look for

> > information that has been published it peer-reviewed journals.

> Anybody can call

> > themselves a doctor and make grand claims, but if it isn't backed

> up by published

> > research I'd be suspicious.

> >

> > H

> >

> >

> > > Guess what, Jim. I bet if you fed rats enough Vitamin E to thin

> their

> > > blood so that they were at a very high INR ... they'd die from

> the

> > > same thing they die of on coumadin...hemmorhage! I'd really

> like to

> > > see us stop calling Coumadin " rat poison. " It is a blood

> thinner that

> > > was used to kill rats because it was not given in therapeutic

> doses

> > > but overdosed. Once again, Coumadin is *not* " Raid for

> Rats. " I

> > > also suspect that if you thin your blood, no matter *what* you

> use,

> > > you are going to have the same kinds of side-effects (bruising,

> > > potential bleeds) that you would have with Coumadin. I'd like

> to hear

> > > one of our medical professionals weigh in on this - I have a

> lot to

> > > learn, I am sure. Lil

> > >

> > > In a message dated 4/16/2006 1:56:28 P.M. Pacific Standard Time,

> > > jshowker@... writes:

> > >

> > > But, if you have a need to thin your blood and you could choose

> a

> > > natural, safe product that does not cause death under any

> > > circumstances, or, choose rat poison. . . . Well, it's a

> pretty easy

> > > choice for me. )

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

[Guest guest]

Yes, I agree they are well known in the world of doctors. Many of them are

well known as *former* and often *deceased* patients.

Lil

In a message dated 4/18/2006 10:49:22 A.M. Pacific Standard Time,

jshowker@... writes:

You could tell him this is what you're going to do,

and not ask. He wouldn't get in trouble with other doctors if you do this

and he has no choice. If he agrees with you or approves your experiment with

E, he could lose his license or be severely reprimanded. Cranky patients

who won't take their medicine the way they are suppose to are well known in

the world of doctors

[Guest guest]

Well, I hope so, Jim. You've kept me awake and on my toes!

Lil

In a message dated 4/18/2006 6:40:58 P.M. Pacific Standard Time,

jshowker@... writes:

Lil,

You make me laugh. )

I can tell you, though, the reports of my death have been greatly

exagerrated.

[Guest guest]

> Yes, I agree they are well known in the world of doctors. Many of them are

> well known as *former* and often *deceased* patients.

> Lil

Lil,

You make me laugh. )

I can tell you, though, the reports of my death have been greatly

exagerrated.

Best,

Jim

[Guest guest]

Thanks Jim.I think we see many things in the same light.

I am cranky too and do not take Coumadin. My doctors have not

pressed me too hard as I am in a low risk group. But of course I do

worry about clots (apart from me!) and am trying to find some

protection against them. I have so far tried Vitamin E but found

capsules upset my stomach. I have also taken/take aspirin, Cod liver

oil (worsen AF) and at the moment taking Sirco. I do feel that I

need something a bit stronger than any of these. I am considering

Bromelain but the price is prohibitive. Same with Gingko Biloba.

I wonder if there is another form of E that would not upset my

digestion?

Sue

> > >

> > > Hi Jim and Lil,

> > >

> > > Coumadin works by blocking the effects of vitamin K in the

body.

> > Unfortunately,

> > > vitamin K does a lot of other things in addition to making

blood

> > clot. Research has

> > > shown that inadequate levels of K are associated with increased

> > incidence of

> > > osteoporosis and calcification of the arteries, both common

events

> > in older people.

> > > There is also some evidence suggesting a role for K in

preventing

> > Alzheimer's and

> > > some cancers.

> > >

> > > A small study at the University of Texas last year found that

> > patients who have

> > > trouble keeping their INR in the correct range had fewer

> > fluctuations outside of the

> > > desired levels when they supplemented with 100 mcg/day of K.

This

> > is another area

> > > where research is out ahead of clinical practice.

> > >

> > > For those with AF who are not taking Coumadin because their

risk

> > profile doesn't call

> > > for it, there are several nutritional supplements that can

thin

> > blood somewhat.

> > > These include ginger, fish oil, bromelain, Vitamin E, (mixed

> > tocopherols with

> > > tocotrienols is the preferable form), and nattokinase. None of

> > these will do the job of

> > > coumadin and should not be substituted for it by anyone at

serious

> > risk of stroke.

> > > Nattokinase in particular has very strong epidemiological

evidence

> > supporting it's use

> > > for stroke risk reduction. This is not a cheap supplement

though,

> > so I only take it

> > > when an episode occurs.

> > >

> > > Supplements have a lot to offer, but need to be used carefully

and

> > with some

> > > awareness of the possible downsides in the same way that Rx

drugs

> > should be

> > > treated with respect. When you research something like this on

> > the 'net look for

> > > information that has been published it peer-reviewed journals.

> > Anybody can call

> > > themselves a doctor and make grand claims, but if it isn't

backed

> > up by published

> > > research I'd be suspicious.

> > >

> > > H

> > >

> > >

> > > > Guess what, Jim. I bet if you fed rats enough Vitamin E to

thin

> > their

> > > > blood so that they were at a very high INR ... they'd die

from

> > the

> > > > same thing they die of on coumadin...hemmorhage! I'd really

> > like to

> > > > see us stop calling Coumadin " rat poison. " It is a blood

> > thinner that

> > > > was used to kill rats because it was not given in

therapeutic

> > doses

> > > > but overdosed. Once again, Coumadin is *not* " Raid for

> > Rats. " I

> > > > also suspect that if you thin your blood, no matter *what*

you

> > use,

> > > > you are going to have the same kinds of side-effects

(bruising,

> > > > potential bleeds) that you would have with Coumadin. I'd

like

> > to hear

> > > > one of our medical professionals weigh in on this - I have a

> > lot to

> > > > learn, I am sure. Lil

> > > >

> > > > In a message dated 4/16/2006 1:56:28 P.M. Pacific Standard

Time,

> > > > jshowker@ writes:

> > > >

> > > > But, if you have a need to thin your blood and you could

choose

> > a

> > > > natural, safe product that does not cause death under any

> > > > circumstances, or, choose rat poison. . . . Well, it's a

> > pretty easy

> > > > choice for me. )

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

[Guest guest]

Is this a fact Lil, or just an opinion?

>

>

>

> Yes, I agree they are well known in the world of doctors. Many of

them are

> well known as *former* and often *deceased* patients.

> Lil

>

> In a message dated 4/18/2006 10:49:22 A.M. Pacific Standard Time,

> jshowker@... writes:

>

> You could tell him this is what you're going to do,

> and not ask. He wouldn't get in trouble with other doctors if

you do this

> and he has no choice. If he agrees with you or approves your

experiment with

> E, he could lose his license or be severely reprimanded. Cranky

patients

> who won't take their medicine the way they are suppose to are

well known in

> the world of doctors

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>