RE: Personal Defense the fx jaw court case from hcpo.com

[Guest guest]

July 2005 Legal Case Study

EMT Strikes Drunk Man Who Hits EMT During Attempts at Treatment During

Transfer to Hospital- Fractured Jaw -- Alabama Defense Verdict.

Two of the defendant's EMT's were dispatched to the home of the plaintiff, a

forty-nine year-old man, in March 2001 due to a possible suicide attempt. The

EMT's found the plaintiff in a state of apparent intoxication. After some

discussion the plaintiff agreed to be transported to a hospital.

While en route, one EMT inserted an IV into the plaintiff's hand. The

plaintiff then struck the EMT across the nose and mouth. The EMT informed the

plaintiff that if the plaintiff struck him again, retaliation would be

forthcoming. As the EMT attempted to arrange an oxygen tube, the plaintiff

struck him a second time. The EMT responded by punching the plaintiff with a

closed fist right between the eyes. The EMT driving the ambulance stopped and

ordered the other EMT out. Police were summoned. The plaintiff was then secured

to the stretcher. The plaintiff sustained a fractured jaw in two places.

Surgical repair was required and the jaw was wired shut for a time.

The plaintiffs claims against the EMT was dismissed after the EMT filed

bankruptcy. The plaintiff claimed that the employer was negligent. The employer

argued that the EMT's actions were outside the scope of employment.

According to published accounts, the jury returned a defense verdict.

Frederick Hale v. Huntsville Emergency Medical Services, Inc., Madison County

(AL) Circuit Court, Case No.02-453. J. Brinkley, Brinkley and Chestnut,

Huntsville, AL for the plaintiff. R. Rice, Spurrier, Rice and Hall,

Huntsville, AL for the defendant.

With permission from Medical Malpractice Verdicts, Settlements & Experts;

Laska, Editor, 901 Church St., Nashville, TN 37203-3411, 1-.

" Lemming, Steve " wrote:

Thanks for the lead.

Steve

Personal Defense

>

>

>

> The reason that I brought this up in the first place is the

>civilian

> availability of the C2, a " personal taser " (yes, with darts,

not

>just

> a stun gun) and the price point of $300, which makes it VERY

> affordable. It's pretty likely that we'll see more and more of

> these used, and the police officer in me worries that we'll

see

>more

> deadly-force encounters because of it (an officer threatened

>with a

> taser will likely be deadly force as the taser can

incapacitate

>an

> officer leaving them vulnerable).

>

> Then, too, there's the issue of personal safety for medics.

>Sure,

> medics shouldn't be getting into situations where they need

>tasers in

> the first place, and should have adequate protection on scene.

>We

> also know that's not always the case and that situations

evolve

> quickly. I don't know that it's completely unreasonable to

>consider

> providing medics with tasers and training, and adopting

policies

>for

> personal defense and retreat.

>

> If you think you're not liable and that your medics won't use

>their

> Maglite/Streamlight, handheld radio and/or their LP12 as an

>impact

> weapon when/if threatened, you're very, very mistaken. Most

>medics

> carry pocket knives (as rescue tools/utility knives) already,

>and I

> doubt that many EMS organizations have policies and procedures

>in

> place for personal defense in deadly situations. I don't know

of

>any

> that provide any sort of training for physical engagements

(not

>to

> subdue anyone, but to break holds, hit that orange button on

the

>

> radio, and run like hell), but I do remember a class at a

>conference

> YEARS ago that touched on that aspect - but never saw any

follow

>up.

>

> Just a thought...

>

> Mike

>

> On Jan 14, 2007, at 11:50 PM, rachfoote@...

<mailto:rachfoote%40aol.com>

><mailto:rachfoote%40aol.com> wrote:

>

> > Reply to those overly concerned about taser barbs.

> >

> > I will send the protocol via texasems-I this Tuesday. As we

>always

> > agree,

> > protocols are guidelines. Depending on the gene pool of our

>medics

> > each week,

> > we re-evaluate all of our protocols on a weekly basis.

> > Sometimes even on a daily basis. Come on guys, it is a taser

>barb,

> > not a

> > harpoon. We are smart enough to use our good judgement on

each

>

> > removal call.

> > Anyone that cannot make that judgement usually doesn't work

>for me

> > that long.

> >

> > I wear a size 8 on Monday and it goes down to a 7 1/4 by

>Friday.

> > Thanks for

> > asking Dudley.

> >

> >

[Guest guest]

So, by hitting him between the eyes he broke his jaw? Something

isn't right here...

Not restraining him after the first time is problem 1. Threatening

retaliation is problem 2. Retaliating, rather than responding, is

problem 3. Partner's reaction is problem 4, probably due to action

3.

Simple? Restrain him, or pull over and call for police. EMS

providers SHOULD NOT HESITATE to file assault charges against

combative patients who intentionally strike them. " State of mind " is

a defense for their lawyer to bring up at trial, not for an arresting/

reporting officer to worry about. Having a warrant waiting when they

get out from the hospital would likely be effective in the future...

and adding caution notes to not respond to that address without police.

In Texas, that's assault on a public servant if the EMS provider is

with a public agency or under a public contract.

Mike :/

> July 2005 Legal Case Study

> EMT Strikes Drunk Man Who Hits EMT During Attempts at Treatment

> During Transfer to Hospital- Fractured Jaw -- Alabama Defense Verdict.

> Two of the defendant's EMT's were dispatched to the home of the

> plaintiff, a forty-nine year-old man, in March 2001 due to a

> possible suicide attempt. The EMT's found the plaintiff in a state

> of apparent intoxication. After some discussion the plaintiff

> agreed to be transported to a hospital.

>

> While en route, one EMT inserted an IV into the plaintiff's hand.

> The plaintiff then struck the EMT across the nose and mouth. The

> EMT informed the plaintiff that if the plaintiff struck him again,

> retaliation would be forthcoming. As the EMT attempted to arrange

> an oxygen tube, the plaintiff struck him a second time. The EMT

> responded by punching the plaintiff with a closed fist right

> between the eyes. The EMT driving the ambulance stopped and ordered

> the other EMT out. Police were summoned. The plaintiff was then

> secured to the stretcher. The plaintiff sustained a fractured jaw

> in two places. Surgical repair was required and the jaw was wired

> shut for a time.

> The plaintiffs claims against the EMT was dismissed after the EMT

> filed bankruptcy. The plaintiff claimed that the employer was

> negligent. The employer argued that the EMT's actions were outside

> the scope of employment.

> According to published accounts, the jury returned a defense

> verdict. Frederick Hale v. Huntsville Emergency Medical Services,

> Inc., Madison County (AL) Circuit Court, Case No.02-453. J.

> Brinkley, Brinkley and Chestnut, Huntsville, AL for the plaintiff.

> R. Rice, Spurrier, Rice and Hall, Huntsville, AL for the

> defendant.

> With permission from Medical Malpractice Verdicts, Settlements &

> Experts; Laska, Editor, 901 Church St., Nashville, TN

> 37203-3411, 1-.

>

>

> " Lemming, Steve " wrote: Thanks for the lead.

>

> Steve

>

>

> Personal Defense

> >

> >

> >

> > The reason that I brought this up in the first place is the

> >civilian

> > availability of the C2, a " personal taser " (yes, with darts,

> not

> >just

> > a stun gun) and the price point of $300, which makes it VERY

> > affordable. It's pretty likely that we'll see more and more of

> > these used, and the police officer in me worries that we'll

> see

> >more

> > deadly-force encounters because of it (an officer threatened

> >with a

> > taser will likely be deadly force as the taser can

> incapacitate

> >an

> > officer leaving them vulnerable).

> >

> > Then, too, there's the issue of personal safety for medics.

> >Sure,

> > medics shouldn't be getting into situations where they need

> >tasers in

> > the first place, and should have adequate protection on scene.

> >We

> > also know that's not always the case and that situations

> evolve

> > quickly. I don't know that it's completely unreasonable to

> >consider

> > providing medics with tasers and training, and adopting

> policies

> >for

> > personal defense and retreat.

> >

> > If you think you're not liable and that your medics won't use

> >their

> > Maglite/Streamlight, handheld radio and/or their LP12 as an

> >impact

> > weapon when/if threatened, you're very, very mistaken. Most

> >medics

> > carry pocket knives (as rescue tools/utility knives) already,

> >and I

> > doubt that many EMS organizations have policies and procedures

> >in

> > place for personal defense in deadly situations. I don't know

> of

> >any

> > that provide any sort of training for physical engagements

> (not

> >to

> > subdue anyone, but to break holds, hit that orange button on

> the

> >

> > radio, and run like hell), but I do remember a class at a

> >conference

> > YEARS ago that touched on that aspect - but never saw any

> follow

> >up.

> >

> > Just a thought...

> >

> > Mike

> >

> > On Jan 14, 2007, at 11:50 PM, rachfoote@...

> <mailto:rachfoote%40aol.com>

> ><mailto:rachfoote%40aol.com> wrote:

> >

> > > Reply to those overly concerned about taser barbs.

> > >

> > > I will send the protocol via texasems-I this Tuesday. As we

> >always

> > > agree,

> > > protocols are guidelines. Depending on the gene pool of our

> >medics

> > > each week,

> > > we re-evaluate all of our protocols on a weekly basis.

> > > Sometimes even on a daily basis. Come on guys, it is a taser

> >barb,

> > > not a

> > > harpoon. We are smart enough to use our good judgement on

> each

> >

> > > removal call.

> > > Anyone that cannot make that judgement usually doesn't work

> >for me

> > > that long.

> > >

> > > I wear a size 8 on Monday and it goes down to a 7 1/4 by

> >Friday.

> > > Thanks for

> > > asking Dudley.

> > >

> > >

[Guest guest]

So how did we get to the point where we are allowing these patients to not be

restrained in the back. One assault should be enough to stop and call Law

Enforcement to the scene. Granted we do have egos but those need to be placed on

the back burner and think about the outcome of incidents when the " cool " is

lost.

I have been in situations where dealing with the violent patient was an issue.

Restraint ; if I even think the patient is not going to cooperate. LE rides in

the back for the protection of me as well as the protection of the patient. I

have experience in the ER dealing with the same patients. Security or LE get

called when it escalates to the point where I am having to get physical. Not

because I cannot handle it but because lawsuits generally run rampant when a pt.

gets injured in an altercation.

Are we not thinking along these lines when this happens or are the

circumstances just that there is an altercation before we can assess and

determine there is a threat?

Or is there a failure to realize a threat?

james davis wrote:

July 2005 Legal Case Study

EMT Strikes Drunk Man Who Hits EMT During Attempts at Treatment During Transfer

to Hospital- Fractured Jaw -- Alabama Defense Verdict.

Two of the defendant's EMT's were dispatched to the home of the plaintiff, a

forty-nine year-old man, in March 2001 due to a possible suicide attempt. The

EMT's found the plaintiff in a state of apparent intoxication. After some

discussion the plaintiff agreed to be transported to a hospital.

While en route, one EMT inserted an IV into the plaintiff's hand. The plaintiff

then struck the EMT across the nose and mouth. The EMT informed the plaintiff

that if the plaintiff struck him again, retaliation would be forthcoming. As the

EMT attempted to arrange an oxygen tube, the plaintiff struck him a second time.

The EMT responded by punching the plaintiff with a closed fist right between the

eyes. The EMT driving the ambulance stopped and ordered the other EMT out.

Police were summoned. The plaintiff was then secured to the stretcher. The

plaintiff sustained a fractured jaw in two places. Surgical repair was required

and the jaw was wired shut for a time.

The plaintiffs claims against the EMT was dismissed after the EMT filed

bankruptcy. The plaintiff claimed that the employer was negligent. The employer

argued that the EMT's actions were outside the scope of employment.

According to published accounts, the jury returned a defense verdict. Frederick

Hale v. Huntsville Emergency Medical Services, Inc., Madison County (AL) Circuit

Court, Case No.02-453. J. Brinkley, Brinkley and Chestnut, Huntsville, AL

for the plaintiff. R. Rice, Spurrier, Rice and Hall, Huntsville, AL for

the defendant.

With permission from Medical Malpractice Verdicts, Settlements & Experts;

Laska, Editor, 901 Church St., Nashville, TN 37203-3411, 1-.

" Lemming, Steve " wrote: Thanks for the lead.

Steve

Personal Defense

>

>

>

> The reason that I brought this up in the first place is the

>civilian

> availability of the C2, a " personal taser " (yes, with darts,

not

>just

> a stun gun) and the price point of $300, which makes it VERY

> affordable. It's pretty likely that we'll see more and more of

> these used, and the police officer in me worries that we'll

see

>more

> deadly-force encounters because of it (an officer threatened

>with a

> taser will likely be deadly force as the taser can

incapacitate

>an

> officer leaving them vulnerable).

>

> Then, too, there's the issue of personal safety for medics.

>Sure,

> medics shouldn't be getting into situations where they need

>tasers in

> the first place, and should have adequate protection on scene.

>We

> also know that's not always the case and that situations

evolve

> quickly. I don't know that it's completely unreasonable to

>consider

> providing medics with tasers and training, and adopting

policies

>for

> personal defense and retreat.

>

> If you think you're not liable and that your medics won't use

>their

> Maglite/Streamlight, handheld radio and/or their LP12 as an

>impact

> weapon when/if threatened, you're very, very mistaken. Most

>medics

> carry pocket knives (as rescue tools/utility knives) already,

>and I

> doubt that many EMS organizations have policies and procedures

>in

> place for personal defense in deadly situations. I don't know

of

>any

> that provide any sort of training for physical engagements

(not

>to

> subdue anyone, but to break holds, hit that orange button on

the

>

> radio, and run like hell), but I do remember a class at a

>conference

> YEARS ago that touched on that aspect - but never saw any

follow

>up.

>

> Just a thought...

>

> Mike

>

> On Jan 14, 2007, at 11:50 PM, rachfoote@...

<mailto:rachfoote%40aol.com>

><mailto:rachfoote%40aol.com> wrote:

>

> > Reply to those overly concerned about taser barbs.

> >

> > I will send the protocol via texasems-I this Tuesday. As we

>always

> > agree,

> > protocols are guidelines. Depending on the gene pool of our

>medics

> > each week,

> > we re-evaluate all of our protocols on a weekly basis.

> > Sometimes even on a daily basis. Come on guys, it is a taser

>barb,

> > not a

> > harpoon. We are smart enough to use our good judgement on

each

>

> > removal call.

> > Anyone that cannot make that judgement usually doesn't work

>for me

> > that long.

> >

> > I wear a size 8 on Monday and it goes down to a 7 1/4 by

>Friday.

> > Thanks for

> > asking Dudley.

> >

> >