Re: Natural Blood thinner - My Experience

[Guest guest]

Thank you Lori for sharing this *very* compelling story about a TIA

especially at your age. Many need to be reminded of this in their desperate

desire to

avoid coumadin. A stroke is a hundred times, a thousand times more

devastating than taking Coumadin.

I am surprised that your physician was going to do a cardioversion without

your having been in therapeutic INR, since you were two weeks past initial

diagnosis and were in persistent afib. My understanding is that you have to be

in therapeutic INR range for at least two or three weeks (my EP insisted on 4)

if 48 hours has passed since you went into afib or have a mandatory TEE.

Lil

In a message dated 4/16/2006 6:32:06 PM Pacific Standard Time,

youngfibber36@... writes:

Two weeks after the initial diagnosis, I went into persistent AF and

my EP scheduled me for a cardioversion. As they were injecting " knock

out " medication into my IV, I told my EP that I experienced severe

vision problems the night before. He took me off the table and

conducted a TEE. During the TEE they found a blood clot in my left

atrium. I was literally moments from being cardioverted, which would

have surely caused a stroke. The night prior, I had experienced a TIA.

[Guest guest]

You said it, sister! Maybe I am in the minority but I consider Coumadin

a blessing, given my condition, and I certainly do not consider it poison.

Lil

In a message dated 4/16/2006 7:30:03 PM Pacific Standard Time,

youngfibber36@... writes:

Also, I think that most medications would be " poison " if taken in

high enough doses. Calling Coumadin rat poison because it was once

used that way seems a bit dramatic to me. :-)

[Guest guest]

Jim, not to be argumentative (well maybe just a little) but a case could be

made for just about *any* substance being poisonous or toxic if used

incorrectly, in the wrong dosage, etc. I read about a young man who died from

drinking too much water while he was jogging (trying to hydrate). I am just

curious

as to why knocking blood thinners that *save people's lives* is so important

to you. You've spent a lot of time today doing that.

Lil

In a message dated 4/16/2006 8:13:36 P.M. Pacific Standard Time,

jshowker@... writes:

Still used that way.

Jim Showker

[Guest guest]

I have to chime in with my non-scientific, experience-based opinion

here. A year and a half ago when I was first diagnosed with AF my

doctor recommended Coumadin. I was (and am) a vegetarian and on a

primarily whole foods diet (~80%). I was also taking 400 i.u. of high

quality Vitamin E (Thorne) . As a " health nut " , I avoid things that

are not natural when possible so I increased my vitamin E and declined

the Coumadin.

Two weeks after the initial diagnosis, I went into persistent AF and

my EP scheduled me for a cardioversion. As they were injecting " knock

out " medication into my IV, I told my EP that I experienced severe

vision problems the night before. He took me off the table and

conducted a TEE. During the TEE they found a blood clot in my left

atrium. I was literally moments from being cardioverted, which would

have surely caused a stroke. The night prior, I had experienced a TIA.

I am 36 years old and cannot imagine how devastating a stroke would be

to my lifestyle. I work hard, play hard, take good care of myself, and

take my Coumadin every day. I do not like it, but the alternative is

just too distressing to consider.

Take care,

Lori

[Guest guest]

" I am surprised that your physician was going to do a cardioversion

without your having been in therapeutic INR, since you were two weeks

past initial diagnosis and were in persistent afib. "

I was condensing a lot of information into a short space. At the time,

I had only recently been diagnosed with AF. I was in it for two weeks,

then I came out of it for about two weeks, then I went back into it.

The second time I went back into it, my doctor scheduled the

cardioversion within ~48 hours of the onset. I was not on Coumadin at

all. Knowing what I know now, I am a bit surprised that he did not do

a TEE since my INR was obviously not therapeutic.

Now I take Coumadin and I would still likely request a TEE before

cardioversion. I agree with you - it is just not worth risking a stroke.

(Also, I think that most medications would be " poison " if taken in

high enough doses. Calling Coumadin rat poison because it was once

used that way seems a bit dramatic to me. :-)

Take care Lil.

Lori

[Guest guest]

Still used that way.

Jim Showker

> You said it, sister! Maybe I am in the minority but I consider

Coumadin

> a blessing, given my condition, and I certainly do not consider it

poison.

> Lil

>

> In a message dated 4/16/2006 7:30:03 PM Pacific Standard Time,

> youngfibber36@... writes:

>

> Also, I think that most medications would be " poison " if taken in

> high enough doses. Calling Coumadin rat poison because it was once

> used that way seems a bit dramatic to me. :-)

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

there is a threshold called LD 50, which stands for the amount of solid or

liquid material (in one dose) it takes to kill 50% of test subjects. Every

substance has an LD50 rating, independent of what the substance is.

I don't know what the LD50 for water in humans is, but I'm thinking it's

probably alot. I've definitely heard of over hydrating, though...

cnetwork@... wrote:

Jim, not to be argumentative (well maybe just a little) but a case could be

made for just about *any* substance being poisonous or toxic if used

incorrectly, in the wrong dosage, etc. I read about a young man who died from

drinking too much water while he was jogging (trying to hydrate). I am just

curious

as to why knocking blood thinners that *save people's lives* is so important

to you. You've spent a lot of time today doing that.

Lil

In a message dated 4/16/2006 8:13:36 P.M. Pacific Standard Time,

jshowker@... writes:

Still used that way.

Jim Showker

[Guest guest]

Jim, I am not questioning this at all...it *is* a worrisome drug, and I wish

I didn't have to take it. I am in NSR since my cardiovert last August and am

only on beta blockers but there is no telling when I might " pop in, " and

because of my mitral valve my EP says...I have to stay on it. It bothers me, and

I wish there were an alternative. But it still beats a stroke.

Lil

In a message dated 4/17/2006 9:31:31 A.M. Pacific Standard Time,

jshowker@... writes:

I don't think I am so much lashing out at coumadin as lashing out at the

whole medico/pharma/hospital complex. In the same way that I am fed up with

the military industrial complex. Coumadin is a very dangerous drug. So

dangerous that when prescribed it must be monitored with weekly blood tests

to guard against overdose. It is so deadly that a 2X overdose for a few

days might kill someone. In the PDR there are two whole pages of side

effects to be guarded against plus many problems with combining with other

drugs.

[Guest guest]

Lil,

I don't think I am so much lashing out at coumadin as lashing out at the

whole medico/pharma/hospital complex. In the same way that I am fed up with

the military industrial complex. Coumadin is a very dangerous drug. So

dangerous that when prescribed it must be monitored with weekly blood tests

to guard against overdose. It is so deadly that a 2X overdose for a few

days might kill someone. In the PDR there are two whole pages of side

effects to be guarded against plus many problems with combining with other

drugs.

There are many natural blood thinners that nature has given us, E being

but one of them. With very little effort, I am sure that a safe and equally

effective blood thinner could be made from a combination of natural agents.

It would just require the will to do so. It would probly still be safe at a

5-10X overdose, and might require much less monitoring, maybe only once a

month, with hardly any side effects or combining problems.

Of course, The underlying rule with competing therapies (such as

chelation vs open heart surgery) is that the one that makes the most money

ALWAYS is the one the American medical profession goes with. And they

ostracize those doctors who go against the flow.

There you have it. Of course coumadin saves lives. there are many

other possibilities.

Best,

Jim

Re: Re: Natural Blood thinner - My Experience

>

>

> Jim, not to be argumentative (well maybe just a little) but a case could

be

> made for just about *any* substance being poisonous or toxic if used

> incorrectly, in the wrong dosage, etc. I read about a young man who died

from

> drinking too much water while he was jogging (trying to hydrate). I am

just curious

> as to why knocking blood thinners that *save people's lives* is so

important

> to you. You've spent a lot of time today doing that.

> Lil

>

> In a message dated 4/16/2006 8:13:36 P.M. Pacific Standard Time,

> jshowker@... writes:

>

> Still used that way.

>

> Jim Showker

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Jim,

I've never uderstood the " natural " is better than " non-natural "

philosopy. Many medicines, in fact, come from natural substances.

There are some ongoing trials with newer coumadin-like medications

that have potentially less side effects and less moitoring. Are

they " natural " ? Personally, I don't care - as long as they are

effective.

There may be many natural blood thinners but I'm not aware of

studies showing their efficacy vs coumadin therapy which, as you say

and we know, saves lives. Also, if someone is taking a " natural "

anti-coagulation therapy approach, do they still have their INR & PT

tested? How would they know they're achieving optimum, protective

levels?

As for the money aspect to competing therapies: aspirin, a very

cheap, easily available drug, is " prescribed " by most doctors for

primary and secondary prevention. I don't discount that there's a

medico/pharma/hospital complex, but IMO it's not an appropriate

discussion in this forum.

nsr 26 months / Flecainide

>

> Lil,

> I don't think I am so much lashing out at coumadin as lashing

out at the

> whole medico/pharma/hospital complex. In the same way that I am

fed up with

> the military industrial complex. Coumadin is a very dangerous

drug. So

> dangerous that when prescribed it must be monitored with weekly

blood tests

> to guard against overdose. It is so deadly that a 2X overdose for

a few

> days might kill someone. In the PDR there are two whole pages of

side

> effects to be guarded against plus many problems with combining

with other

> drugs.

>

> There are many natural blood thinners that nature has given us,

E being

> but one of them. With very little effort, I am sure that a safe

and equally

> effective blood thinner could be made from a combination of

natural agents.

> It would just require the will to do so. It would probly still be

safe at a

> 5-10X overdose, and might require much less monitoring, maybe only

once a

> month, with hardly any side effects or combining problems.

>

> Of course, The underlying rule with competing therapies (such as

> chelation vs open heart surgery) is that the one that makes the

most money

> ALWAYS is the one the American medical profession goes with. And

they

> ostracize those doctors who go against the flow.

>

> There you have it. Of course coumadin saves lives. there are

many

> other possibilities.

>

> Best,

> Jim

>

>

> Re: Re: Natural Blood thinner - My

Experience

>

>

> >

> >

> > Jim, not to be argumentative (well maybe just a little) but a

case could

> be

> > made for just about *any* substance being poisonous or toxic if

used

> > incorrectly, in the wrong dosage, etc. I read about a young man

who died

> from

> > drinking too much water while he was jogging (trying to

hydrate). I am

> just curious

> > as to why knocking blood thinners that *save people's lives* is

so

> important

> > to you. You've spent a lot of time today doing that.

> > Lil

> >

> > In a message dated 4/16/2006 8:13:36 P.M. Pacific Standard Time,

> > jshowker@... writes:

> >

> > Still used that way.

> >

> > Jim Showker

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

[Guest guest]

There is an implantable atrial defibrillator device that has been tested in the

United States, but only approved in other countries. That sounds like just the

ticket for my husband, but instead he is limited to drugs and lesser procedures.

The medicines can have ghastly side effects (such as Sotalol, dofetilide, and

deflecainide causing ventricular damage).

When the drugs cause ventricular damage, then he can have such things as the far

more expensive implantable cardioverter defibrillator (ICD). I think it is the

drug companies that are 'wagging the dog'.

Jo Anne

Re: Re: Natural Blood thinner - My Experience

Lil,

Of course, The underlying rule with competing therapies (such as

chelation vs open heart surgery) is that the one that makes the most money

ALWAYS is the one the American medical profession goes with. And they

ostracize those doctors who go against the flow.

[Guest guest]

Hi Jo Anne

What I did not add in my previous posting was the only thing they could come up

with after I was taken off the sotalol and they were puzzled as to what to do

was to implant a pacemaker.

ine

>

>

> Date: 2006/04/17 Mon PM 07:40:05 BST

> To: AFIBsupport >

> Subject: Re: Re: Natural Blood thinner - My Experience

>

> There is an implantable atrial defibrillator device that has been tested in

the United States, but only approved in other countries. That sounds like just

the ticket for my husband, but instead he is limited to drugs and lesser

procedures. The medicines can have ghastly side effects (such as Sotalol,

dofetilide, and deflecainide causing ventricular damage).

>

> When the drugs cause ventricular damage, then he can have such things as the

far more expensive implantable cardioverter defibrillator (ICD). I think it is

the drug companies that are 'wagging the dog'.

>

> Jo Anne

>

>

> Re: Re: Natural Blood thinner - My Experience

>

>

> Lil,

>

> Of course, The underlying rule with competing therapies (such as

> chelation vs open heart surgery) is that the one that makes the most money

> ALWAYS is the one the American medical profession goes with. And they

> ostracize those doctors who go against the flow.

>

>

>

>