Man jumps from moving ambulance

[Guest guest]

This same thing happened several years ago in a town near Fort Worth. EMS

was transporting an intoxicated teenager when he got up, opened the back door

and exited the ambulance. He was killed instantly. A long investigation

ensued, but ultimately the medics were not found to be at fault.

We should all be aware of this possibility and consider the use of restraints

for patients with an altered mental status.

Gene Gandy

[Guest guest]

In this case, based upon information I was told, PD did not want to

transport the subject because he was vomiting. And there was a question about

his

BAC being at a high enough level that he needed hospital observation. As I

understand it, prior to EMS arrival, he had made some suicidal statments to LE,

which they failed to pass along to the medics.

There was a grand jury investigation into the matter. The attending medic

was in the process of making a radio report to the hospital when the incident

happened. He saw the patient before he jumped, but was unable to stop him.

Gene

[Guest guest]

It has long been my policy not to be between the door and a patient who

wants out.

~Bob CCEMTP

Bob W. Hargis

2008 Independent Presidential Candidate

www.hargis.info <http://www.hargis.info/>

bob@...

_____

From: texasems-l [mailto:texasems-l ] On

Behalf Of wegandy1938@...

Sent: Thursday, January 18, 2007 9:23 PM

To: texasems-l

Subject: Man jumps from moving ambulance

This same thing happened several years ago in a town near Fort Worth. EMS

was transporting an intoxicated teenager when he got up, opened the back

door

and exited the ambulance. He was killed instantly. A long investigation

ensued, but ultimately the medics were not found to be at fault.

We should all be aware of this possibility and consider the use of

restraints

for patients with an altered mental status.

Gene Gandy

[Guest guest]

Gene, I totally agree with you. I do feel, though, that if the patient has been

" medically cleared " from one facility and is being transferred to another, that

it be done by law enforcement, or, another more secure means than the back of an

ambulance.

I know this is open for debate, but it is only my opinion. I have had the

(pleasure?) of transporting patients from one facility to another for reasons

such as:

1. It took SWAT to get the " person " out of the

building.

2. Patients that were threats to themselves, as

well as, others.

3. " Persons " that Law enforcement did not want to

transfer because of

lack of manpower, which, I can understand,

sometimes.

The list is long, but you know what I'm trying to say(I hope).

Yes, we use the stretcher belts and make sure the doors are locked, and are

vigilant, but that's not always enough, obviously.

If the patient IS violent, I DO NOT believe he needs to go by ambulance. If

the patient displayed a violent behavior, but now is calm and says " i won't do

anything " ------ they still need to go by Law Enforcement. Again, IF he is

medically cleared and does not require to be sedated for the transport.

I could go on, but basically--- I feel EMS should not be used for these type

of transports.

AND when I mean EMS, I also mean transfer services!

ALL opinions are welcomed and respected. BUT !

I stand firm on my opinion and don't think I could be swayed to change my mind

wegandy1938@... wrote:

This same thing happened several years ago in a town near Fort Worth.

EMS

was transporting an intoxicated teenager when he got up, opened the back door

and exited the ambulance. He was killed instantly. A long investigation

ensued, but ultimately the medics were not found to be at fault.

We should all be aware of this possibility and consider the use of restraints

for patients with an altered mental status.

Gene Gandy

[Guest guest]

Gene,

Wonder if a well-time brake tap could have helped???

Now with the excited delirium/ " In Custody Death Syndrome " issues that continue

to arise mandate that we take these " violent " psych patients more seriously. We

had one about 6 months ago that was being held down and restrained by PD and

violent is an understatement....because of research I had done on Tasers, and

other issues surrounding in custody deaths I suggested we slip a pulse ox probe

on his finger...the reading was a VERY frightening 82%...

High flow O2 was held in front of the patient while PD freed an arm for an IV

and aggressive sedation...which didn't decrease the LOC of the patient but did

enable us to establish dialogue and calm the patient enough where we could get

him on a stretcher and put the oxygen mask on him....

As violent as he was, it is no mystery that we saved this kid who was zinging

along high on cocaine and meth...because if we had left him with PD his end

could have been in the paper instead of back at the house.

This area needs MUCH more attention and guidance...we truly don't know what we

don't know.

Dudley

Re: Man jumps from moving ambulance

In this case, based upon information I was told, PD did not want to

transport the subject because he was vomiting. And there was a question about

his

BAC being at a high enough level that he needed hospital observation. As I

understand it, prior to EMS arrival, he had made some suicidal statments to LE,

which they failed to pass along to the medics.

There was a grand jury investigation into the matter. The attending medic

was in the process of making a radio report to the hospital when the incident

happened. He saw the patient before he jumped, but was unable to stop him.

Gene

[Guest guest]

Gene, the NJ case I just posted happened like 3 days ago.

Louis N. Molino, Sr., CET

FF/NREMT-B/FSI/EMSI

Freelance Consultant/Trainer/Author/Journalist/Fire Protection Consultant

Buddhist philosopher at-large

LNMolino@...

(Cell Phone)

(Home Phone)

(IFW/TFW/FSS Office)

(IFW/TFW/FSS Fax)

" A Texan with a Jersey Attitude "

" Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds

discuss people " Eleanor Roosevelt - US diplomat & reformer (1884 - 1962)

The comments contained in this E-mail are the opinions of the author and the

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I

specifically state that I am doing so. Further this E-mail is intended only for

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stated recipient and may contain private and or confidential materials

retransmission is strictly prohibited unless placed in the public domain by the

original author.

[Guest guest]

airmedic51@... wrote:

" Yes, we use the stretcher belts and make sure the doors are locked, and

are vigilant, but that's not always enough, obviously. "

Would you really want to lock the doors alone with a violent or

potentially violent patient in the back? Not only will you stop the

patient from getting out but you also lock your escape route.

With LE present during the transport - maybe, alone I don't think so.

AJL

[Guest guest]

The reason I see to lock the doors is to give you a few extra seconds to get to

the person before they exit while the vehicle is in motion...I would think

medics know how their doors lock and unlock so the delay in opening the door if

you needed to exit should be negligible. For an unruly patient attempting to

exit...the extra 3 to 5 seconds it takes for them to realize the door is locked

and get it unlocked may allow you to take steps to prevent the exit....

That's my thoughts.

Dudley

RE: Man jumps from moving ambulance

airmedic51@... wrote:

" Yes, we use the stretcher belts and make sure the doors are locked, and

are vigilant, but that's not always enough, obviously. "

Would you really want to lock the doors alone with a violent or

potentially violent patient in the back? Not only will you stop the

patient from getting out but you also lock your escape route.

With LE present during the transport - maybe, alone I don't think so.

AJL

[Guest guest]

If I have any say in it as the lead medic, and, I will for my safety as well as

my partner's safety, I WOULD NOT transport a violent or " potentially violent "

patient, unles it was medically necessary, AND DEFINITELY NOT ALONE in the back.

I would have a second person.

(Now I do know some medics who will jump out FIRST, if the Pt. becomes violent

(LOL).

[Guest guest]

Dudley,

If this is the same case I am familiar with the details, it was an old

partner of mine who was the medic in the back. The rear door of the

ambulance was locked and the guy got off the cot and stepped out the door in

blink of an eye. The medic reacted and still was unable to reach the patient

before he exited the vehicle at 55 +MPH. The patient up until that point had

been cooperative and hadn’t given any indication of what was to take place

during the transport.

I not sure that anything short of tackling the guy before he got to the door

would have stopped him and that would not be a good option because I think

the patient would have taken the medic with him, had he gotten in the way.

It was truly a very sad situation for the patient and the medic.

Bernie Stafford EMTP

________________________________________

From: texasems-l [mailto:texasems-l ] On

Behalf Of THEDUDMAN@...

Sent: Friday, January 19, 2007 10:02 AM

To: texasems-l

Subject: Re: Man jumps from moving ambulance

The reason I see to lock the doors is to give you a few extra seconds to get

to the person before they exit while the vehicle is in motion...I would

think medics know how their doors lock and unlock so the delay in opening

the door if you needed to exit should be negligible. For an unruly patient

attempting to exit...the extra 3 to 5 seconds it takes for them to realize

the door is locked and get it unlocked may allow you to take steps to

prevent the exit....

That's my thoughts.

Dudley

RE: Man jumps from moving ambulance

airmedic51@... wrote:

" Yes, we use the stretcher belts and make sure the doors are locked, and

are vigilant, but that's not always enough, obviously. "

Would you really want to lock the doors alone with a violent or

potentially violent patient in the back? Not only will you stop the

patient from getting out but you also lock your escape route.

With LE present during the transport - maybe, alone I don't think so.

AJL

[Guest guest]

In the case I reported, the driver did in fact apply the brakes vigorously,

but it was too late.

Gene

[Guest guest]

Well I think we should all get dart guns for the violent patients. we simply

ask them " Do ya really want to continue acting this way? " if they say yes. well

then ..... Just kidding

THEDUDMAN@... wrote: Gene,

Wonder if a well-time brake tap could have helped???

Now with the excited delirium/ " In Custody Death Syndrome " issues that continue

to arise mandate that we take these " violent " psych patients more seriously. We

had one about 6 months ago that was being held down and restrained by PD and

violent is an understatement....because of research I had done on Tasers, and

other issues surrounding in custody deaths I suggested we slip a pulse ox probe

on his finger...the reading was a VERY frightening 82%...

High flow O2 was held in front of the patient while PD freed an arm for an IV

and aggressive sedation...which didn't decrease the LOC of the patient but did

enable us to establish dialogue and calm the patient enough where we could get

him on a stretcher and put the oxygen mask on him....

As violent as he was, it is no mystery that we saved this kid who was zinging

along high on cocaine and meth...because if we had left him with PD his end

could have been in the paper instead of back at the house.

This area needs MUCH more attention and guidance...we truly don't know what we

don't know.

Dudley

Re: Man jumps from moving ambulance

In this case, based upon information I was told, PD did not want to

transport the subject because he was vomiting. And there was a question about

his

BAC being at a high enough level that he needed hospital observation. As I

understand it, prior to EMS arrival, he had made some suicidal statments to LE,

which they failed to pass along to the medics.

There was a grand jury investigation into the matter. The attending medic

was in the process of making a radio report to the hospital when the incident

happened. He saw the patient before he jumped, but was unable to stop him.

Gene

[Guest guest]

Bernie,

I sure hope he is doing okay...I have been fortunate that only a couple of my

patients have made any attempt to get up off the stretcher. I cannot imagine

this happening....

My thoughts were in response to other posts and not directed at this particular

incident. This is probably the 3rd or 4th case of this similar thing happening

over the last several months...no matter what the circumstances, it is a

horrible event that I hope very few of us would ever have to experience

ourselves.

Dudley

RE: Man jumps from moving ambulance

airmedic51@... wrote:

" Yes, we use the stretcher belts and make sure the doors are locked, and

are vigilant, but that's not always enough, obviously. "

Would you really want to lock the doors alone with a violent or

potentially violent patient in the back? Not only will you stop the

patient from getting out but you also lock your escape route.

With LE present during the transport - maybe, alone I don't think so.

AJL

[Guest guest]

Dudley,

My comments were to clarify the circumstances of the incident and to make

everyone take a little closer look at a patient that might have that

potential to jump out the back of the ambulance. The medic that was in the

back was cleared after a very intensive investigation and is now a RN and

working in the DFW area the last time I saw him.

I have had a couple of patient over the years make an attempt to escape,

most allow me to have the ambulance pulled over before they exited, much to

my relief. I also had one that just kicked my butt instead.lol The point is

you have to be aware all the time, try not to concentrate on doing the

patient report rather give you full attention to your patient no matter what

their complaint or condition.

Bernie Stafford EMTP

_____

From: texasems-l [mailto:texasems-l ] On

Behalf Of THEDUDMAN@...

Sent: Friday, January 19, 2007 6:56 PM

To: texasems-l

Subject: Re: Man jumps from moving ambulance

Bernie,

I sure hope he is doing okay...I have been fortunate that only a couple of

my patients have made any attempt to get up off the stretcher. I cannot

imagine this happening....

My thoughts were in response to other posts and not directed at this

particular incident. This is probably the 3rd or 4th case of this similar

thing happening over the last several months...no matter what the

circumstances, it is a horrible event that I hope very few of us would ever

have to experience ourselves.

Dudley

RE: Man jumps from moving ambulance

airmedic51@sbcgloba <mailto:airmedic51%40sbcglobal.net> l.net wrote:

" Yes, we use the stretcher belts and make sure the doors are locked, and

are vigilant, but that's not always enough, obviously. "

Would you really want to lock the doors alone with a violent or

potentially violent patient in the back? Not only will you stop the

patient from getting out but you also lock your escape route.

With LE present during the transport - maybe, alone I don't think so.

AJL

[Guest guest]

I always think of my safety and my crew's safety. I never transport a

potentially violently patient alone, whether it's me or my partner in the back.

Since I am usually the senior partner I always insist on LE or at least FD to go

with. Two against one makes the odds better for us all.

Take care and stay safe

Anita

NREMTP/LP