Guest guest Posted January 15, 2007 Report Share Posted January 15, 2007 Anyone have any good reason why we would treat a coral snake bite by 'immediately washing wound with copious amounts of water'? Our current protocols give this course of action specifically for coral snake bites. I'm thinking about removing this language since it potentially could create a delay in transport. Thoughts? Thnx. Mark Sastre FF/P Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 15, 2007 Report Share Posted January 15, 2007 Since you carry water or NS on the ambulance, can you not do this while enroute? I have washed plenty of eyes while enroute to the ER with a bag of NS and plenty of towels on the floor. Peggy ey Mark Sastre wrote: Anyone have any good reason why we would treat a coral snake bite by 'immediately washing wound with copious amounts of water'? Our current protocols give this course of action specifically for coral snake bites. I'm thinking about removing this language since it potentially could create a delay in transport. Thoughts? Thnx. Mark Sastre FF/P --------------------------------- Don't pick lemons. See all the new 2007 cars at Yahoo! Autos. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 15, 2007 Report Share Posted January 15, 2007 Obviously it can be done enroute.....but I want to know the reason (if any) for specifying copious amounts of water specifically for coral bites. > Anyone have any good reason why we would treat a coral snake bite > by 'immediately washing wound with copious amounts of water'? Our > current protocols give this course of action specifically for coral > snake bites. I'm thinking about removing this language since it > potentially could create a delay in transport. Thoughts? Thnx. > Mark Sastre FF/P > > > > > > > --------------------------------- > Don't pick lemons. > See all the new 2007 cars at Yahoo! Autos. > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 15, 2007 Report Share Posted January 15, 2007 I'm no expert on coral snakes by far. However, I do know from research that they do not have the typical fangs of a poisonous snake. Although they are one of the most poisonous snakes in our area. They actually have to chew on what they are biting to get their venom in. Thus creating in some cases a wound instead of the typical 2 injection sites. So, it is possible that by rinsing with water you could rinse off some of the poison that is on the wound. I'm not saying that's the full reason for your protocol. That's just my 2 cents from a little past research on coral snakes after 2 close calls. One coral snake ran right across my bare foot when I was about 6 yrs old. Another was found inside our house on a cool rainy night. We had the door open to get some cool air. Hope this helps Steve Gann Mark Sastre wrote: Obviously it can be done enroute.....but I want to know the reason (if any) for specifying copious amounts of water specifically for coral bites. > Anyone have any good reason why we would treat a coral snake bite > by 'immediately washing wound with copious amounts of water'? Our > current protocols give this course of action specifically for coral > snake bites. I'm thinking about removing this language since it > potentially could create a delay in transport. Thoughts? Thnx. > Mark Sastre FF/P > > > > > > > --------------------------------- > Don't pick lemons. > See all the new 2007 cars at Yahoo! Autos. > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 15, 2007 Report Share Posted January 15, 2007 First the question you asked dealt with the delay in transport to wash with copious amounts of water. Second most of the information I have read over the years state wash the wound to help wash out germs that are in the snake's mouth due to what it had eaten before it bit the patient. I have not seen anything on copious amounts of water. Maybe this will help. Peggy ey Mark Sastre wrote: Obviously it can be done enroute.....but I want to know the reason (if any) for specifying copious amounts of water specifically for coral bites. > Anyone have any good reason why we would treat a coral snake bite > by 'immediately washing wound with copious amounts of water'? Our > current protocols give this course of action specifically for coral > snake bites. I'm thinking about removing this language since it > potentially could create a delay in transport. Thoughts? Thnx. > Mark Sastre FF/P > > > > > > > --------------------------------- > Don't pick lemons. > See all the new 2007 cars at Yahoo! Autos. > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 15, 2007 Report Share Posted January 15, 2007 In a message dated 1/15/2007 9:32:26 PM Central Standard Time, bbledsoe@... writes: Current recommendations are to wash all snake bites with soap and water if possible as long as it does not delay definitive care (antivenin). Do not stop at the Waffle House to wash the snake bite in the bathroom. If you can do it enroute, OK. If not, don't worry about it. The information on coral snakes is so scant the treatment is primarily based on experience with Australian snakes which are also in the Elapid family. Sonoran coral snake bites often do not require antivenin. BEB IIRC, coral snakes are rear fanged beasties, which means that they generally have to hang on and chew for a while to get to the point where they can inject venom. While they are indigenous to Louisiana, I don't remember seeing a case of coral snake bite...generally copperheads, 'ground rattlers' (actually immature water moccasins) and the occasional canebrake or Eastern Diamond Back rattle snake for the documented poisonous ones, but most often rat/cotton/king snakes (all non venomous). I had to use CroFab about once a year. ck Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 15, 2007 Report Share Posted January 15, 2007 I would have to agree on Steve with this one. Rinsing the wound with copious amounts of water is probably a good idea. Ever hear the saying the solution to polution is dilution? You have a poluted wound which needs to be cleaned or at a minimum diluted. I can't see where it would delay transport. But then again I work in the desert where we carry a case of liter bottles of water in our ambulance. We do a lot of stuff on the go. If you're really worried about it delaying transport put a clause in there that states something to the effect of do not delay transport to do this step. But of course, That's just my two cents worth. Leach EMT-P/Instructor > > Anyone have any good reason why we would treat a coral > snake bite > > by 'immediately washing wound with copious amounts of water'? Our > > current protocols give this course of action specifically for > coral > > snake bites. I'm thinking about removing this language since it > > potentially could create a delay in transport. Thoughts? Thnx. > > Mark Sastre FF/P > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --------------------------------- > > Don't pick lemons. > > See all the new 2007 cars at Yahoo! Autos. > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 15, 2007 Report Share Posted January 15, 2007 Current recommendations are to wash all snake bites with soap and water if possible as long as it does not delay definitive care (antivenin). Do not stop at the Waffle House to wash the snake bite in the bathroom. If you can do it enroute, OK. If not, don't worry about it. The information on coral snakes is so scant the treatment is primarily based on experience with Australian snakes which are also in the Elapid family. Sonoran coral snake bites often do not require antivenin. BEB _____ From: texasems-l [mailto:texasems-l ] On Behalf Of Sent: Monday, January 15, 2007 9:06 PM To: texasems-l Subject: Re: Coral Snake Bites I would have to agree on Steve with this one. Rinsing the wound with copious amounts of water is probably a good idea. Ever hear the saying the solution to polution is dilution? You have a poluted wound which needs to be cleaned or at a minimum diluted. I can't see where it would delay transport. But then again I work in the desert where we carry a case of liter bottles of water in our ambulance. We do a lot of stuff on the go. If you're really worried about it delaying transport put a clause in there that states something to the effect of do not delay transport to do this step. But of course, That's just my two cents worth. Leach EMT-P/Instructor > > Anyone have any good reason why we would treat a coral > snake bite > > by 'immediately washing wound with copious amounts of water'? Our > > current protocols give this course of action specifically for > coral > > snake bites. I'm thinking about removing this language since it > > potentially could create a delay in transport. Thoughts? Thnx. > > Mark Sastre FF/P > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --------------------------------- > > Don't pick lemons. > > See all the new 2007 cars at Yahoo! Autos. > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 15, 2007 Report Share Posted January 15, 2007 I had a coral snake bite pt in Florida in 1994 or 95...guy felt something on his foot working behind his house at night...saw the snake, thought it was the king snake and reached down to throw it into the bushes...when it bit him on the hand between the thumb and forefinger. I had never seen a coral snake...and being from Texas thought Rattlesnake when I thought snake...so when our FD first responders wanted to look at the snake the man's wife brought out a cookie jar....my first thought was " WOW....that's all snake in there " and was hastily looking for a way out of my seemingly tiny ambulance....just knowing when they pulled the lid off that cookie jar it would be like the can of gag spring snakes..... Then they opened the stupid thing (still don't know why to this day) and it was just a " little " ole thing flopping around in the bottom of the cookie jar. Pretty non-impressive...and everyone insisted we had to take it to the hospital (again not knowing why) I decided not to argue...so a roll of 3 " tape later, I felt the cookie jar was secure enough to transport to the ED.... By the time we arrived at the ED, his arm was numb and his anxiety level was almost as high as mine with that cookie jar on the squad bench next to me. He spent about 3 days in ICU and a few more in the hospital before being released....Florida Dept of Wildlife took the snake and uses it for education, etc (post taxidermy shop)...turns out it was one of the largest ever found in Florida at 37 " long.... Needless to say, I don't make it a point to seek out snakebite calls....and I definately don't take them to the hospital...I don't care who says it a good idea....as they say " NOT in my AMBOLANCE!!!! " Dudley Re: Re: Coral Snake Bites In a message dated 1/15/2007 9:32:26 PM Central Standard Time, bbledsoe@... writes: Current recommendations are to wash all snake bites with soap and water if possible as long as it does not delay definitive care (antivenin). Do not stop at the Waffle House to wash the snake bite in the bathroom. If you can do it enroute, OK. If not, don't worry about it. The information on coral snakes is so scant the treatment is primarily based on experience with Australian snakes which are also in the Elapid family. Sonoran coral snake bites often do not require antivenin. BEB IIRC, coral snakes are rear fanged beasties, which means that they generally have to hang on and chew for a while to get to the point where they can inject venom. While they are indigenous to Louisiana, I don't remember seeing a case of coral snake bite...generally copperheads, 'ground rattlers' (actually immature water moccasins) and the occasional canebrake or Eastern Diamond Back rattle snake for the documented poisonous ones, but most often rat/cotton/king snakes (all non venomous). I had to use CroFab about once a year. ck Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 16, 2007 Report Share Posted January 16, 2007 While I've never treated a Coral Snake bite, I have spotted one of the little beasties at my ranch. It was sunning itself on a rock on a cool, damp Spring morning, several years back. I steered clear. About twenty years ago, I ran up on a snake which looked like a coral snake while checking fences and making repairs after a wind storm. I saw him and took off running, only to realized AFTER looking like an idiot that he didn't meet the " red touch yellow, kill a fellow " criteria. My Dad laughed at me or a week. Stay safe in this nasty weather, everyone. Barry E. McClung, EMT-P Field Training Officer MetroCare Services - Austin, L.P. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 16, 2007 Report Share Posted January 16, 2007 The thing about this question that baffles me is that instead of doing any research or consulting your Medical Director you just want to take this out of your protocols????? Kinda Scary! Chris > > Anyone have any good reason why we would treat a coral snake bite > by 'immediately washing wound with copious amounts of water'? Our > current protocols give this course of action specifically for coral > snake bites. I'm thinking about removing this language since it > potentially could create a delay in transport. Thoughts? Thnx. > Mark Sastre FF/P > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 20, 2007 Report Share Posted January 20, 2007 Let's see, what do I know about poisonous snakes? Well, I catch them, armed only with a short stick. Specifically, the coral snake does not envenomate as you might think. The venom is actually in the saliva and the snake must chew a hole in your skin before the venom can penetrate. Ergo, you are washing away a considerable amount of venom from the wound site; venom that won't end up in the patient. BTW, I don't think you can just remove something from protocols; I believe that is the purview of the Medical Director. > > Anyone have any good reason why we would treat a coral snake bite > by 'immediately washing wound with copious amounts of water'? Our > current protocols give this course of action specifically for coral > snake bites. I'm thinking about removing this language since it > potentially could create a delay in transport. Thoughts? Thnx. > Mark Sastre FF/P > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 22, 2007 Report Share Posted January 22, 2007 Thank you all for your comments about current accepted treatment for snake bites, particularly Coral snakes. This has helped in shaping future protocols. It shocks me, though, that I would actually have to specify and explain to some of you our procedure for updating protocols. Really folks....do you really think I'm going to upload current protocols, re-type and change whatever I feel like this day, re- print them, and re-distribute them to everyone without even thinking about talking to my Med Director or administration? It doesn't exactly work that way in this area. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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