EMS Blood Draws on Fatality Accidents

January 3, 2007

Mike, as I am sure you recall, this legislation was introduced in the last

session and opposed by practically everybody in the EMS community. It was

defeated.

Rep. Corte will keep on re-introducing it until it either passes or he gets

defeated.

I do not intend to go over the reasons for opposition to this Act, because it

was discussed to death on here last session.

In my own personal judgment, and speaking for nobody but myself, I think it's

a bad piece of legislation, one that we will regret if it passes.

I don't know what EMSAT's position on it will be this session.

Gene G.

>

> Another interesting change in existing law is regarding fatality

> accidents where a JP makes a determination of death. In this case,

> the change is at the very end of the law, where JP's would be

> REQUIRED to order paramedics, etc. to take blood from the body of the

> deceased. Note that there is no rules for who does what with the

> blood AFTER that...

>

> Personally, I'd discuss this with your CA's and JP's to see what

> their take on this is.

>

> And remember, [] means that the text is redacted.

>

> Mike

>

> By: Corte H.B. No. 423

>

> A BILL TO BE ENTITLED

> 1-1

> AN ACT

> 1-2 relating to requiring that medical examiners and justices of the

> 1-3 peace report certain deaths that result from a motor vehicle

> 1-4 accident to the Texas Department of Public Safety.

> 1-5 BE IT ENACTED BY THE LEGISLATURE OF THE STATE OF TEXAS:

> 1-6 SECTION 1. Section 550.081, Transportation Code, is amended

> 1-7 to read as follows:

> 1-8 Sec. 550.081. [CORONER'S] REPORT OF MEDICAL EXAMINER OR

> 1-9 JUSTICE OF THE PEACE. (a) A medical examiner or justice of the

> 1-10 peace acting as coroner in a county that does not have a medical

> 1-11 examiner's office or that is not part of a medical examiner's

> 1-12 district [other officer performing similar functions] shall submit

> 1-13 a [, not later than the 10th day of each month:

> 1-14 [(1)] report in writing to the department of the

> death

> 1-15 of a person that was [within the officer's jurisdiction during the

> 1-16 preceding calendar month as] the result of a traffic accident to

> 1-17 which this chapter applies and that occurred within the

> 1-18 jurisdiction of the medical examiner or justice of the peace in

> the

> 1-19 preceding calendar month.

> 1-20 ( The [; and

> 1-21 [(2)include in the] report must be submitted before

> 1-22 the 11th day of each calendar month and include:

> 1-23 (1) the name of the deceased and a statement as to

> 1-24 whether the deceased was:

> 2-1 (A) the operator of or a passenger in a vehicle

> 2-2 involved in the

> accident; or

> 2-3 ( a pedestrian or other nonoccupant of a

> 2-4 vehicle;

> 2-5 (2) the date of the accident and the name of the

> county

> 2-6 in which the accident occurred;

> 2-7 (3) the name of any laboratory, medical examiner's

> 2-8 office, or other facility that conducted toxicological testing

> 2-9 relative to the deceased; and

> 2-10 (4) the results of any toxicological testing that

> was

> 2-11 conducted [the time, place, and circumstances of the accident].

> 2-12 © A report required by this section shall be sent to:

> 2-13 (1) the crash records bureau of the department at

> its

> 2-14 headquarters in Austin; or

> 2-15 (2) any other office or bureau of the department

> that

> 2-16 the department designates.

> 2-17 (d) If toxicological test results are not available to the

> 2-18 medical examiner or justice of the peace on the date a report must

> 2-19 be submitted, the medical examiner or justice shall:

> 2-20 (1) submit a report that includes the statement

> 2-21 " toxicological test results unavailable " 2-21

> 2-22 (2) submit a supplement to the report that contains

> 2-23 the information required by Subsections ((3) and (4) as soon as

> 2-24 practicable after the toxicological test results become available.

> 2-25 (e) The department shall prepare and when requested supply

> 2-26 to medical examiners' offices and justices of the peace the forms

> 2-27 necessary to make the reports required by this section.

> 3-1 SECTION 2. Subsection (j), Article 49.10, Code of Criminal

> 3-2 Procedure, is amended to read as follows:

> 3-3 (j) A justice of the peace shall [may] order a physician,

> 3-4 qualified technician, [Previous Hit] paramedic [Next Hit] ,

> chemist, registered professional

> 3-5 nurse, or licensed vocational nurse to take a specimen of blood

> from

> 3-6 the body of a person who died as the result of a motor vehicle

> 3-7 accident [if the justice determines that circumstances indicate

> 3-8 that the person may have been driving while intoxicated]

> 3-9 SECTION 3. This Act takes effect September 1, 2007.

>

January 3, 2007

Another interesting change in existing law is regarding fatality

accidents where a JP makes a determination of death. In this case,

the change is at the very end of the law, where JP's would be

REQUIRED to order paramedics, etc. to take blood from the body of the

deceased. Note that there is no rules for who does what with the

blood AFTER that...

Personally, I'd discuss this with your CA's and JP's to see what

their take on this is.

And remember, [] means that the text is redacted.

Mike

By: Corte H.B. No. 423

A BILL TO BE ENTITLED

1-1

AN ACT

1-2 relating to requiring that medical examiners and justices of the

1-3 peace report certain deaths that result from a motor vehicle

1-4 accident to the Texas Department of Public Safety.

1-5 BE IT ENACTED BY THE LEGISLATURE OF THE STATE OF TEXAS:

1-6 SECTION 1. Section 550.081, Transportation Code, is amended

1-7 to read as follows:

1-8 Sec. 550.081. [CORONER'S] REPORT OF MEDICAL EXAMINER OR

1-9 JUSTICE OF THE PEACE. (a) A medical examiner or justice of the

1-10 peace acting as coroner in a county that does not have a medical

1-11 examiner's office or that is not part of a medical examiner's

1-12 district [other officer performing similar functions] shall submit

1-13 a [, not later than the 10th day of each month:

1-14 [(1)] report in writing to the department of the

death

1-15 of a person that was [within the officer's jurisdiction during the

1-16 preceding calendar month as] the result of a traffic accident to

1-17 which this chapter applies and that occurred within the

1-18 jurisdiction of the medical examiner or justice of the peace in

the

1-19 preceding calendar month.

1-20 ( The [; and

1-21 [(2)include in the] report must be submitted before

1-22 the 11th day of each calendar month and include:

1-23 (1) the name of the deceased and a statement as to

1-24 whether the deceased was:

2-1 (A) the operator of or a passenger in a vehicle

2-2 involved in the

accident; or

2-3 ( a pedestrian or other nonoccupant of a

2-4 vehicle;

2-5 (2) the date of the accident and the name of the

county

2-6 in which the accident occurred;

2-7 (3) the name of any laboratory, medical examiner's

2-8 office, or other facility that conducted toxicological testing

2-9 relative to the deceased; and

2-10 (4) the results of any toxicological testing that

was

2-11 conducted [the time, place, and circumstances of the accident].

2-12 © A report required by this section shall be sent to:

2-13 (1) the crash records bureau of the department at

its

2-14 headquarters in Austin; or

2-15 (2) any other office or bureau of the department

that

2-16 the department designates.

2-17 (d) If toxicological test results are not available to the

2-18 medical examiner or justice of the peace on the date a report must

2-19 be submitted, the medical examiner or justice shall:

2-20 (1) submit a report that includes the statement

2-21 " toxicological test results unavailable " ; and

2-22 (2) submit a supplement to the report that contains

2-23 the information required by Subsections ((3) and (4) as soon as

2-24 practicable after the toxicological test results become available.

2-25 (e) The department shall prepare and when requested supply

2-26 to medical examiners' offices and justices of the peace the forms

2-27 necessary to make the reports required by this section.

3-1 SECTION 2. Subsection (j), Article 49.10, Code of Criminal

3-2 Procedure, is amended to read as follows:

3-3 (j) A justice of the peace shall [may] order a physician,

3-4 qualified technician, [Previous Hit] paramedic [Next Hit] ,

chemist, registered professional

3-5 nurse, or licensed vocational nurse to take a specimen of blood

from

3-6 the body of a person who died as the result of a motor vehicle

3-7 accident [if the justice determines that circumstances indicate

3-8 that the person may have been driving while intoxicated].

3-9 SECTION 3. This Act takes effect September 1, 2007.

January 3, 2007

My question is if the EMS personnel refuse to do the blood draws, what will

happen? I do not see any teeth in the bill.

Don

---- wegandy1938@... wrote:

> Mike, as I am sure you recall, this legislation was introduced in the last

> session and opposed by practically everybody in the EMS community. It was

> defeated.

>

> Rep. Corte will keep on re-introducing it until it either passes or he gets

> defeated.

>

> I do not intend to go over the reasons for opposition to this Act, because it

> was discussed to death on here last session.

>

> In my own personal judgment, and speaking for nobody but myself, I think it's

> a bad piece of legislation, one that we will regret if it passes.

>

> I don't know what EMSAT's position on it will be this session.

>

> Gene G.

>

> >

> > Another interesting change in existing law is regarding fatality

> > accidents where a JP makes a determination of death. In this case,

> > the change is at the very end of the law, where JP's would be

> > REQUIRED to order paramedics, etc. to take blood from the body of the

> > deceased. Note that there is no rules for who does what with the

> > blood AFTER that...

> >

> > Personally, I'd discuss this with your CA's and JP's to see what

> > their take on this is.

> >

> > And remember, [] means that the text is redacted.

> >

> > Mike

> >

> > By: Corte H.B. No. 423

> >

> > A BILL TO BE ENTITLED

> > 1-1

> > AN ACT

> > 1-2 relating to requiring that medical examiners and justices of the

> > 1-3 peace report certain deaths that result from a motor vehicle

> > 1-4 accident to the Texas Department of Public Safety.

> > 1-5 BE IT ENACTED BY THE LEGISLATURE OF THE STATE OF TEXAS:

> > 1-6 SECTION 1. Section 550.081, Transportation Code, is amended

> > 1-7 to read as follows:

> > 1-8 Sec. 550.081. [CORONER'S] REPORT OF MEDICAL EXAMINER OR

> > 1-9 JUSTICE OF THE PEACE. (a) A medical examiner or justice of the

> > 1-10 peace acting as coroner in a county that does not have a medical

> > 1-11 examiner's office or that is not part of a medical examiner's

> > 1-12 district [other officer performing similar functions] shall submit

> > 1-13 a [, not later than the 10th day of each month:

> > 1-14 [(1)] report in writing to the department of the

> > death

> > 1-15 of a person that was [within the officer's jurisdiction during the

> > 1-16 preceding calendar month as] the result of a traffic accident to

> > 1-17 which this chapter applies and that occurred within the

> > 1-18 jurisdiction of the medical examiner or justice of the peace in

> > the

> > 1-19 preceding calendar month.

> > 1-20 ( The [; and

> > 1-21 [(2)include in the] report must be submitted before

> > 1-22 the 11th day of each calendar month and include:

> > 1-23 (1) the name of the deceased and a statement as to

> > 1-24 whether the deceased was:

> > 2-1 (A) the operator of or a passenger in a vehicle

> > 2-2 involved in the

> > accident; or

> > 2-3 ( a pedestrian or other nonoccupant of a

> > 2-4 vehicle;

> > 2-5 (2) the date of the accident and the name of the

> > county

> > 2-6 in which the accident occurred;

> > 2-7 (3) the name of any laboratory, medical examiner's

> > 2-8 office, or other facility that conducted toxicological testing

> > 2-9 relative to the deceased; and

> > 2-10 (4) the results of any toxicological testing that

> > was

> > 2-11 conducted [the time, place, and circumstances of the accident].

> > 2-12 © A report required by this section shall be sent to:

> > 2-13 (1) the crash records bureau of the department at

> > its

> > 2-14 headquarters in Austin; or

> > 2-15 (2) any other office or bureau of the department

> > that

> > 2-16 the department designates.

> > 2-17 (d) If toxicological test results are not available to the

> > 2-18 medical examiner or justice of the peace on the date a report must

> > 2-19 be submitted, the medical examiner or justice shall:

> > 2-20 (1) submit a report that includes the statement

> > 2-21 " toxicological test results unavailable " 2-21

> > 2-22 (2) submit a supplement to the report that contains

> > 2-23 the information required by Subsections ((3) and (4) as soon as

> > 2-24 practicable after the toxicological test results become available.

> > 2-25 (e) The department shall prepare and when requested supply

> > 2-26 to medical examiners' offices and justices of the peace the forms

> > 2-27 necessary to make the reports required by this section.

> > 3-1 SECTION 2. Subsection (j), Article 49.10, Code of Criminal

> > 3-2 Procedure, is amended to read as follows:

> > 3-3 (j) A justice of the peace shall [may] order a physician,

> > 3-4 qualified technician, [Previous Hit] paramedic [Next Hit] ,

> > chemist, registered professional

> > 3-5 nurse, or licensed vocational nurse to take a specimen of blood

> > from

> > 3-6 the body of a person who died as the result of a motor vehicle

> > 3-7 accident [if the justice determines that circumstances indicate

> > 3-8 that the person may have been driving while intoxicated]

> > 3-9 SECTION 3. This Act takes effect September 1, 2007.

> >

>

January 3, 2007

Contempt of court, most likely.

Mike

> My question is if the EMS personnel refuse to do the blood draws,

> what will happen? I do not see any teeth in the bill.

>

> Don

>

> ---- wegandy1938@... wrote:

> > Mike, as I am sure you recall, this legislation was introduced in

> the last

> > session and opposed by practically everybody in the EMS

> community. It was

> > defeated.

> >

> > Rep. Corte will keep on re-introducing it until it either passes

> or he gets

> > defeated.

> >

> > I do not intend to go over the reasons for opposition to this

> Act, because it

> > was discussed to death on here last session.

> >

> > In my own personal judgment, and speaking for nobody but myself,

> I think it's

> > a bad piece of legislation, one that we will regret if it passes.

> >

> > I don't know what EMSAT's position on it will be this session.

> >

> > Gene G.

> >

> > >

> > > Another interesting change in existing law is regarding fatality

> > > accidents where a JP makes a determination of death. In this case,

> > > the change is at the very end of the law, where JP's would be

> > > REQUIRED to order paramedics, etc. to take blood from the body

> of the

> > > deceased. Note that there is no rules for who does what with the

> > > blood AFTER that...

> > >

> > > Personally, I'd discuss this with your CA's and JP's to see what

> > > their take on this is.

> > >

> > > And remember, [] means that the text is redacted.

> > >

> > > Mike

> > >

> > > By: Corte H.B. No. 423

> > >

> > > A BILL TO BE ENTITLED

> > > 1-1

> > > AN ACT

> > > 1-2 relating to requiring that medical examiners and justices

> of the

> > > 1-3 peace report certain deaths that result from a motor vehicle

> > > 1-4 accident to the Texas Department of Public Safety.

> > > 1-5 BE IT ENACTED BY THE LEGISLATURE OF THE STATE OF TEXAS:

> > > 1-6 SECTION 1. Section 550.081, Transportation Code, is amended

> > > 1-7 to read as follows:

> > > 1-8 Sec. 550.081. [CORONER'S] REPORT OF MEDICAL EXAMINER OR

> > > 1-9 JUSTICE OF THE PEACE. (a) A medical examiner or justice of the

> > > 1-10 peace acting as coroner in a county that does not have a

> medical

> > > 1-11 examiner's office or that is not part of a medical examiner's

> > > 1-12 district [other officer performing similar functions]

> shall submit

> > > 1-13 a [, not later than the 10th day of each month:

> > > 1-14 [(1)] report in writing to the department of the

> > > death

> > > 1-15 of a person that was [within the officer's jurisdiction

> during the

> > > 1-16 preceding calendar month as] the result of a traffic

> accident to

> > > 1-17 which this chapter applies and that occurred within the

> > > 1-18 jurisdiction of the medical examiner or justice of the

> peace in

> > > the

> > > 1-19 preceding calendar month.

> > > 1-20 ( The [; and

> > > 1-21 [(2)include in the] report must be submitted before

> > > 1-22 the 11th day of each calendar month and include:

> > > 1-23 (1) the name of the deceased and a statement as to

> > > 1-24 whether the deceased was:

> > > 2-1 (A) the operator of or a passenger in a vehicle

> > > 2-2 involved in the

> > > accident; or

> > > 2-3 ( a pedestrian or other nonoccupant of a

> > > 2-4 vehicle;

> > > 2-5 (2) the date of the accident and the name of the

> > > county

> > > 2-6 in which the accident occurred;

> > > 2-7 (3) the name of any laboratory, medical examiner's

> > > 2-8 office, or other facility that conducted toxicological testing

> > > 2-9 relative to the deceased; and

> > > 2-10 (4) the results of any toxicological testing that

> > > was

> > > 2-11 conducted [the time, place, and circumstances of the

> accident].

> > > 2-12 © A report required by this section shall be sent to:

> > > 2-13 (1) the crash records bureau of the department at

> > > its

> > > 2-14 headquarters in Austin; or

> > > 2-15 (2) any other office or bureau of the department

> > > that

> > > 2-16 the department designates.

> > > 2-17 (d) If toxicological test results are not available to the

> > > 2-18 medical examiner or justice of the peace on the date a

> report must

> > > 2-19 be submitted, the medical examiner or justice shall:

> > > 2-20 (1) submit a report that includes the statement

> > > 2-21 " toxicological test results unavailable " 2-21

> > > 2-22 (2) submit a supplement to the report that contains

> > > 2-23 the information required by Subsections ((3) and (4) as

> soon as

> > > 2-24 practicable after the toxicological test results become

> available.

> > > 2-25 (e) The department shall prepare and when requested supply

> > > 2-26 to medical examiners' offices and justices of the peace

> the forms

> > > 2-27 necessary to make the reports required by this section.

> > > 3-1 SECTION 2. Subsection (j), Article 49.10, Code of Criminal

> > > 3-2 Procedure, is amended to read as follows:

> > > 3-3 (j) A justice of the peace shall [may] order a physician,

> > > 3-4 qualified technician, [Previous Hit] paramedic [Next Hit] ,

> > > chemist, registered professional

> > > 3-5 nurse, or licensed vocational nurse to take a specimen of

> blood

> > > from

> > > 3-6 the body of a person who died as the result of a motor vehicle

> > > 3-7 accident [if the justice determines that circumstances

> indicate

> > > 3-8 that the person may have been driving while intoxicated]

> > > 3-9 SECTION 3. This Act takes effect September 1, 2007.

> > >

> >

January 4, 2007

-This question may have already been covered in the previous

discussion, but here goes anyway. The bill states that the JP can

order Paramedics to draw the blood of a decease patient, but what if

your Medical Control Physician will not sign off on a protocol for

that procedure. If you draw the sample will you be practicing

medicine without a license, or if you refuse to draw the sample will

you be arrested for violating Texas law?

Mark

-- In texasems-l , Mike wrote:

>

> Contempt of court, most likely.

>

> Mike

>

> > My question is if the EMS personnel refuse to do the blood

draws,

> > what will happen? I do not see any teeth in the bill.

> >

> > Don

> >

> > ---- wegandy1938@... wrote:

> > > Mike, as I am sure you recall, this legislation was introduced

in

> > the last

> > > session and opposed by practically everybody in the EMS

> > community. It was

> > > defeated.

> > >

> > > Rep. Corte will keep on re-introducing it until it either

passes

> > or he gets

> > > defeated.

> > >

> > > I do not intend to go over the reasons for opposition to this

> > Act, because it

> > > was discussed to death on here last session.

> > >

> > > In my own personal judgment, and speaking for nobody but

myself,

> > I think it's

> > > a bad piece of legislation, one that we will regret if it

passes.

> > >

> > > I don't know what EMSAT's position on it will be this session.

> > >

> > > Gene G.

> > >

> > > >

> > > > Another interesting change in existing law is regarding

fatality

> > > > accidents where a JP makes a determination of death. In this

case,

> > > > the change is at the very end of the law, where JP's would be

> > > > REQUIRED to order paramedics, etc. to take blood from the

body

> > of the

> > > > deceased. Note that there is no rules for who does what with

the

> > > > blood AFTER that...

> > > >

> > > > Personally, I'd discuss this with your CA's and JP's to see

what

> > > > their take on this is.

> > > >

> > > > And remember, [] means that the text is redacted.

> > > >

> > > > Mike

> > > >

> > > > By: Corte H.B. No. 423

> > > >

> > > > A BILL TO BE ENTITLED

> > > > 1-1

> > > > AN ACT

> > > > 1-2 relating to requiring that medical examiners and

justices

> > of the

> > > > 1-3 peace report certain deaths that result from a motor

vehicle

> > > > 1-4 accident to the Texas Department of Public Safety.

> > > > 1-5 BE IT ENACTED BY THE LEGISLATURE OF THE STATE OF TEXAS:

> > > > 1-6 SECTION 1. Section 550.081, Transportation Code, is

amended

> > > > 1-7 to read as follows:

> > > > 1-8 Sec. 550.081. [CORONER'S] REPORT OF MEDICAL EXAMINER OR

> > > > 1-9 JUSTICE OF THE PEACE. (a) A medical examiner or justice

of the

> > > > 1-10 peace acting as coroner in a county that does not have

a

> > medical

> > > > 1-11 examiner's office or that is not part of a medical

examiner's

> > > > 1-12 district [other officer performing similar functions]

> > shall submit

> > > > 1-13 a [, not later than the 10th day of each month:

> > > > 1-14 [(1)] report in writing to the department of the

> > > > death

> > > > 1-15 of a person that was [within the officer's jurisdiction

> > during the

> > > > 1-16 preceding calendar month as] the result of a traffic

> > accident to

> > > > 1-17 which this chapter applies and that occurred within the

> > > > 1-18 jurisdiction of the medical examiner or justice of the

> > peace in

> > > > the

> > > > 1-19 preceding calendar month.

> > > > 1-20 ( The [; and

> > > > 1-21 [(2)include in the] report must be submitted before

> > > > 1-22 the 11th day of each calendar month and include:

> > > > 1-23 (1) the name of the deceased and a statement as to

> > > > 1-24 whether the deceased was:

> > > > 2-1 (A) the operator of or a passenger in a vehicle

> > > > 2-2 involved in the

> > > > accident; or

> > > > 2-3 ( a pedestrian or other nonoccupant of a

> > > > 2-4 vehicle;

> > > > 2-5 (2) the date of the accident and the name of the

> > > > county

> > > > 2-6 in which the accident occurred;

> > > > 2-7 (3) the name of any laboratory, medical examiner's

> > > > 2-8 office, or other facility that conducted toxicological

testing

> > > > 2-9 relative to the deceased; and

> > > > 2-10 (4) the results of any toxicological testing that

> > > > was

> > > > 2-11 conducted [the time, place, and circumstances of the

> > accident].

> > > > 2-12 © A report required by this section shall be sent to:

> > > > 2-13 (1) the crash records bureau of the department at

> > > > its

> > > > 2-14 headquarters in Austin; or

> > > > 2-15 (2) any other office or bureau of the department

> > > > that

> > > > 2-16 the department designates.

> > > > 2-17 (d) If toxicological test results are not available to

the

> > > > 2-18 medical examiner or justice of the peace on the date a

> > report must

> > > > 2-19 be submitted, the medical examiner or justice shall:

> > > > 2-20 (1) submit a report that includes the statement

> > > > 2-21 " toxicological test results unavailable " 2-21

> > > > 2-22 (2) submit a supplement to the report that contains

> > > > 2-23 the information required by Subsections ((3) and (4)

as

> > soon as

> > > > 2-24 practicable after the toxicological test results become

> > available.

> > > > 2-25 (e) The department shall prepare and when requested

supply

> > > > 2-26 to medical examiners' offices and justices of the peace

> > the forms

> > > > 2-27 necessary to make the reports required by this section.

> > > > 3-1 SECTION 2. Subsection (j), Article 49.10, Code of Criminal

> > > > 3-2 Procedure, is amended to read as follows:

> > > > 3-3 (j) A justice of the peace shall [may] order a physician,

> > > > 3-4 qualified technician, [Previous Hit] paramedic [Next

Hit] ,

> > > > chemist, registered professional

> > > > 3-5 nurse, or licensed vocational nurse to take a specimen

of

> > blood

> > > > from

> > > > 3-6 the body of a person who died as the result of a motor

vehicle

> > > > 3-7 accident [if the justice determines that circumstances

> > indicate

> > > > 3-8 that the person may have been driving while intoxicated]

> > > > 3-9 SECTION 3. This Act takes effect September 1, 2007.

> > > >

> > >

January 4, 2007

Our medical director signed off on the following protocol:

In accordance with Texas HB 3775, Paramedics shall under the direct order of

a Justice of the Peace, take a specimen of blood from the driver in a

fatality accident, if the Justice of the Peace determines that the

circumstances indicate that the person may have been driving while

intoxicated.

In accordance with the Medical Director of Lavaca County Rescue Service, A

paramedic will attempt one (1) venipuncture, with equipment provided to them

by the EMS Department and a blood collection tube by the Department of

Public Safety Official. The sterile technique will be used using betadine

(not alcohol) swabs. If a specimen is obtained on the first and only

attempt, the blood shall be placed in an approved container provided by the

Department of Public Safety Official. If the specimen is not obtained the

Justice of the Peace or Department of Public Safety Official shall be

notified and no other attempt shall be made.

At no time, will a venipuncture hinder the medical care of any salvageable

patient(s) at the scene of the accident. At no time, will the delay in

patient transport be hindered for a venipuncture of the fatality victim.

All venipunctures will be billed accordingly to the appropriate Justice of

the Peace office. All venipuncutes whether successful or not, will be

documented with patient information and Justice of the Peace requesting the

venipuncture.

Debbie

Re: EMS Blood Draws on Fatality Accidents

-This question may have already been covered in the previous

discussion, but here goes anyway. The bill states that the JP can

order Paramedics to draw the blood of a decease patient, but what if

your Medical Control Physician will not sign off on a protocol for

that procedure. If you draw the sample will you be practicing

medicine without a license, or if you refuse to draw the sample will

you be arrested for violating Texas law?

Mark

-- In texasems-l , Mike wrote:

>

> Contempt of court, most likely.

>

> Mike

>

> > My question is if the EMS personnel refuse to do the blood

draws,

> > what will happen? I do not see any teeth in the bill.

> >

> > Don

> >

> > ---- wegandy1938@... wrote:

> > > Mike, as I am sure you recall, this legislation was introduced

in

> > the last

> > > session and opposed by practically everybody in the EMS

> > community. It was

> > > defeated.

> > >

> > > Rep. Corte will keep on re-introducing it until it either

passes

> > or he gets

> > > defeated.

> > >

> > > I do not intend to go over the reasons for opposition to this

> > Act, because it

> > > was discussed to death on here last session.

> > >

> > > In my own personal judgment, and speaking for nobody but

myself,

> > I think it's

> > > a bad piece of legislation, one that we will regret if it

passes.

> > >

> > > I don't know what EMSAT's position on it will be this session.

> > >

> > > Gene G.

> > >

> > > >

> > > > Another interesting change in existing law is regarding

fatality

> > > > accidents where a JP makes a determination of death. In this

case,

> > > > the change is at the very end of the law, where JP's would be

> > > > REQUIRED to order paramedics, etc. to take blood from the

body

> > of the

> > > > deceased. Note that there is no rules for who does what with

the

> > > > blood AFTER that...

> > > >

> > > > Personally, I'd discuss this with your CA's and JP's to see

what

> > > > their take on this is.

> > > >

> > > > And remember, [] means that the text is redacted.

> > > >

> > > > Mike

> > > >

> > > > By: Corte H.B. No. 423

> > > >

> > > > A BILL TO BE ENTITLED

> > > > 1-1

> > > > AN ACT

> > > > 1-2 relating to requiring that medical examiners and

justices

> > of the

> > > > 1-3 peace report certain deaths that result from a motor

vehicle

> > > > 1-4 accident to the Texas Department of Public Safety.

> > > > 1-5 BE IT ENACTED BY THE LEGISLATURE OF THE STATE OF TEXAS:

> > > > 1-6 SECTION 1. Section 550.081, Transportation Code, is

amended

> > > > 1-7 to read as follows:

> > > > 1-8 Sec. 550.081. [CORONER'S] REPORT OF MEDICAL EXAMINER OR

> > > > 1-9 JUSTICE OF THE PEACE. (a) A medical examiner or justice

of the

> > > > 1-10 peace acting as coroner in a county that does not have

a

> > medical

> > > > 1-11 examiner's office or that is not part of a medical

examiner's

> > > > 1-12 district [other officer performing similar functions]

> > shall submit

> > > > 1-13 a [, not later than the 10th day of each month:

> > > > 1-14 [(1)] report in writing to the department of the

> > > > death

> > > > 1-15 of a person that was [within the officer's jurisdiction

> > during the

> > > > 1-16 preceding calendar month as] the result of a traffic

> > accident to

> > > > 1-17 which this chapter applies and that occurred within the

> > > > 1-18 jurisdiction of the medical examiner or justice of the

> > peace in

> > > > the

> > > > 1-19 preceding calendar month.

> > > > 1-20 ( The [; and

> > > > 1-21 [(2)include in the] report must be submitted before

> > > > 1-22 the 11th day of each calendar month and include:

> > > > 1-23 (1) the name of the deceased and a statement as to

> > > > 1-24 whether the deceased was:

> > > > 2-1 (A) the operator of or a passenger in a vehicle

> > > > 2-2 involved in the

> > > > accident; or

> > > > 2-3 ( a pedestrian or other nonoccupant of a

> > > > 2-4 vehicle;

> > > > 2-5 (2) the date of the accident and the name of the

> > > > county

> > > > 2-6 in which the accident occurred;

> > > > 2-7 (3) the name of any laboratory, medical examiner's

> > > > 2-8 office, or other facility that conducted toxicological

testing

> > > > 2-9 relative to the deceased; and

> > > > 2-10 (4) the results of any toxicological testing that

> > > > was

> > > > 2-11 conducted [the time, place, and circumstances of the

> > accident].

> > > > 2-12 © A report required by this section shall be sent to:

> > > > 2-13 (1) the crash records bureau of the department at

> > > > its

> > > > 2-14 headquarters in Austin; or

> > > > 2-15 (2) any other office or bureau of the department

> > > > that

> > > > 2-16 the department designates.

> > > > 2-17 (d) If toxicological test results are not available to

the

> > > > 2-18 medical examiner or justice of the peace on the date a

> > report must

> > > > 2-19 be submitted, the medical examiner or justice shall:

> > > > 2-20 (1) submit a report that includes the statement

> > > > 2-21 " toxicological test results unavailable " 2-21

> > > > 2-22 (2) submit a supplement to the report that contains

> > > > 2-23 the information required by Subsections ((3) and (4)

as

> > soon as

> > > > 2-24 practicable after the toxicological test results become

> > available.

> > > > 2-25 (e) The department shall prepare and when requested

supply

> > > > 2-26 to medical examiners' offices and justices of the peace

> > the forms

> > > > 2-27 necessary to make the reports required by this section.

> > > > 3-1 SECTION 2. Subsection (j), Article 49.10, Code of Criminal

> > > > 3-2 Procedure, is amended to read as follows:

> > > > 3-3 (j) A justice of the peace shall [may] order a physician,

> > > > 3-4 qualified technician, [Previous Hit] paramedic [Next

Hit] ,

> > > > chemist, registered professional

> > > > 3-5 nurse, or licensed vocational nurse to take a specimen

of

> > blood

> > > > from

> > > > 3-6 the body of a person who died as the result of a motor

vehicle

> > > > 3-7 accident [if the justice determines that circumstances

> > indicate

> > > > 3-8 that the person may have been driving while intoxicated]

> > > > 3-9 SECTION 3. This Act takes effect September 1, 2007.

> > > >

> > >

January 4, 2007

I would suppose that, ego vs. ego would ensue and the JP could pursue the proper

channels against both the EMS agency (who employs the doctor) and the doctor

since they are not abiding by the laws of the state...and as Paramedics and I am

sure physicians...we have to do that...

Don't think being a doctor allows you to NOT follow the law...

Dudley

Re: EMS Blood Draws on Fatality Accidents

-This question may have already been covered in the previous

discussion, but here goes anyway. The bill states that the JP can

order Paramedics to draw the blood of a decease patient, but what if

your Medical Control Physician will not sign off on a protocol for

that procedure. If you draw the sample will you be practicing

medicine without a license, or if you refuse to draw the sample will

you be arrested for violating Texas law?

Mark

-- In texasems-l , Mike wrote:

>

> Contempt of court, most likely.

>

> Mike

>

> > My question is if the EMS personnel refuse to do the blood

draws,

> > what will happen? I do not see any teeth in the bill.

> >

> > Don

> >

> > ---- wegandy1938@... wrote:

> > > Mike, as I am sure you recall, this legislation was introduced

in

> > the last

> > > session and opposed by practically everybody in the EMS

> > community. It was

> > > defeated.

> > >

> > > Rep. Corte will keep on re-introducing it until it either

passes

> > or he gets

> > > defeated.

> > >

> > > I do not intend to go over the reasons for opposition to this

> > Act, because it

> > > was discussed to death on here last session.

> > >

> > > In my own personal judgment, and speaking for nobody but

myself,

> > I think it's

> > > a bad piece of legislation, one that we will regret if it

passes.

> > >

> > > I don't know what EMSAT's position on it will be this session.

> > >

> > > Gene G.

> > >

> > > >

> > > > Another interesting change in existing law is regarding

fatality

> > > > accidents where a JP makes a determination of death. In this

case,

> > > > the change is at the very end of the law, where JP's would be

> > > > REQUIRED to order paramedics, etc. to take blood from the

body

> > of the

> > > > deceased. Note that there is no rules for who does what with

the

> > > > blood AFTER that...

> > > >

> > > > Personally, I'd discuss this with your CA's and JP's to see

what

> > > > their take on this is.

> > > >

> > > > And remember, [] means that the text is redacted.

> > > >

> > > > Mike

> > > >

> > > > By: Corte H.B. No. 423

> > > >

> > > > A BILL TO BE ENTITLED

> > > > 1-1

> > > > AN ACT

> > > > 1-2 relating to requiring that medical examiners and

justices

> > of the

> > > > 1-3 peace report certain deaths that result from a motor

vehicle

> > > > 1-4 accident to the Texas Department of Public Safety.

> > > > 1-5 BE IT ENACTED BY THE LEGISLATURE OF THE STATE OF TEXAS:

> > > > 1-6 SECTION 1. Section 550.081, Transportation Code, is

amended

> > > > 1-7 to read as follows:

> > > > 1-8 Sec. 550.081. [CORONER'S] REPORT OF MEDICAL EXAMINER OR

> > > > 1-9 JUSTICE OF THE PEACE. (a) A medical examiner or justice

of the

> > > > 1-10 peace acting as coroner in a county that does not have

a

> > medical

> > > > 1-11 examiner's office or that is not part of a medical

examiner's

> > > > 1-12 district [other officer performing similar functions]

> > shall submit

> > > > 1-13 a [, not later than the 10th day of each month:

> > > > 1-14 [(1)] report in writing to the department of the

> > > > death

> > > > 1-15 of a person that was [within the officer's jurisdiction

> > during the

> > > > 1-16 preceding calendar month as] the result of a traffic

> > accident to

> > > > 1-17 which this chapter applies and that occurred within the

> > > > 1-18 jurisdiction of the medical examiner or justice of the

> > peace in

> > > > the

> > > > 1-19 preceding calendar month.

> > > > 1-20 ( The [; and

> > > > 1-21 [(2)include in the] report must be submitted before

> > > > 1-22 the 11th day of each calendar month and include:

> > > > 1-23 (1) the name of the deceased and a statement as to

> > > > 1-24 whether the deceased was:

> > > > 2-1 (A) the operator of or a passenger in a vehicle

> > > > 2-2 involved in the

> > > > accident; or

> > > > 2-3 ( a pedestrian or other nonoccupant of a

> > > > 2-4 vehicle;

> > > > 2-5 (2) the date of the accident and the name of the

> > > > county

> > > > 2-6 in which the accident occurred;

> > > > 2-7 (3) the name of any laboratory, medical examiner's

> > > > 2-8 office, or other facility that conducted toxicological

testing

> > > > 2-9 relative to the deceased; and

> > > > 2-10 (4) the results of any toxicological testing that

> > > > was

> > > > 2-11 conducted [the time, place, and circumstances of the

> > accident].

> > > > 2-12 © A report required by this section shall be sent to:

> > > > 2-13 (1) the crash records bureau of the department at

> > > > its

> > > > 2-14 headquarters in Austin; or

> > > > 2-15 (2) any other office or bureau of the department

> > > > that

> > > > 2-16 the department designates.

> > > > 2-17 (d) If toxicological test results are not available to

the

> > > > 2-18 medical examiner or justice of the peace on the date a

> > report must

> > > > 2-19 be submitted, the medical examiner or justice shall:

> > > > 2-20 (1) submit a report that includes the statement

> > > > 2-21 " toxicological test results unavailable " 2-21

> > > > 2-22 (2) submit a supplement to the report that contains

> > > > 2-23 the information required by Subsections ((3) and (4)

as

> > soon as

> > > > 2-24 practicable after the toxicological test results become

> > available.

> > > > 2-25 (e) The department shall prepare and when requested

supply

> > > > 2-26 to medical examiners' offices and justices of the peace

> > the forms

> > > > 2-27 necessary to make the reports required by this section.

> > > > 3-1 SECTION 2. Subsection (j), Article 49.10, Code of Criminal

> > > > 3-2 Procedure, is amended to read as follows:

> > > > 3-3 (j) A justice of the peace shall [may] order a physician,

> > > > 3-4 qualified technician, [Previous Hit] paramedic [Next

Hit] ,

> > > > chemist, registered professional

> > > > 3-5 nurse, or licensed vocational nurse to take a specimen

of

> > blood

> > > > from

> > > > 3-6 the body of a person who died as the result of a motor

vehicle

> > > > 3-7 accident [if the justice determines that circumstances

> > indicate

> > > > 3-8 that the person may have been driving while intoxicated]

> > > > 3-9 SECTION 3. This Act takes effect September 1, 2007.

> > > >

> > >

January 4, 2007

Just remember one thing in this discussion. Some of the best criminal defense

lawyers in this state specialize in DWI defense. Fully expect EVERYTHING you do

on that scene to be challenged and cross-examined by these lawyers.

For example, the JP told you to draw blood? So, you drew blood but DID NOT

perform any patient assesment? Did you even examine my client to check his

blood glucose? Did you perform a complete trauma assessment to ensure there was

no neurological injury.

I'm willing to bet you that these DWI defense experts will rapidly become

experts on EMS well before they put any of us on the stand to testify about our

blood draw.

Additionally, has anyone started thinking about chain of custody for these

cases? Who do we give the tube to? How many medics even know about chain of

custody?

-Wes Ogilvie

Re: EMS Blood Draws on Fatality Accidents

-This question may have already been covered in the previous

discussion, but here goes anyway. The bill states that the JP can

order Paramedics to draw the blood of a decease patient, but what if

your Medical Control Physician will not sign off on a protocol for

that procedure. If you draw the sample will you be practicing

medicine without a license, or if you refuse to draw the sample will

you be arrested for violating Texas law?

Mark

-- In texasems-l , Mike wrote:

>

> Contempt of court, most likely.

>

> Mike

>

> > My question is if the EMS personnel refuse to do the blood

draws,

> > what will happen? I do not see any teeth in the bill.

> >

> > Don

> >

> > ---- wegandy1938@... wrote:

> > > Mike, as I am sure you recall, this legislation was introduced

in

> > the last

> > > session and opposed by practically everybody in the EMS

> > community. It was

> > > defeated.

> > >

> > > Rep. Corte will keep on re-introducing it until it either

passes

> > or he gets

> > > defeated.

> > >

> > > I do not intend to go over the reasons for opposition to this

> > Act, because it

> > > was discussed to death on here last session.

> > >

> > > In my own personal judgment, and speaking for nobody but

myself,

> > I think it's

> > > a bad piece of legislation, one that we will regret if it

passes.

> > >

> > > I don't know what EMSAT's position on it will be this session.

> > >

> > > Gene G.

> > >

> > > >

> > > > Another interesting change in existing law is regarding

fatality

> > > > accidents where a JP makes a determination of death. In this

case,

> > > > the change is at the very end of the law, where JP's would be

> > > > REQUIRED to order paramedics, etc. to take blood from the

body

> > of the

> > > > deceased. Note that there is no rules for who does what with

the

> > > > blood AFTER that...

> > > >

> > > > Personally, I'd discuss this with your CA's and JP's to see

what

> > > > their take on this is.

> > > >

> > > > And remember, [] means that the text is redacted.

> > > >

> > > > Mike

> > > >

> > > > By: Corte H.B. No. 423

> > > >

> > > > A BILL TO BE ENTITLED

> > > > 1-1

> > > > AN ACT

> > > > 1-2 relating to requiring that medical examiners and

justices

> > of the

> > > > 1-3 peace report certain deaths that result from a motor

vehicle

> > > > 1-4 accident to the Texas Department of Public Safety.

> > > > 1-5 BE IT ENACTED BY THE LEGISLATURE OF THE STATE OF TEXAS:

> > > > 1-6 SECTION 1. Section 550.081, Transportation Code, is

amended

> > > > 1-7 to read as follows:

> > > > 1-8 Sec. 550.081. [CORONER'S] REPORT OF MEDICAL EXAMINER OR

> > > > 1-9 JUSTICE OF THE PEACE. (a) A medical examiner or justice

of the

> > > > 1-10 peace acting as coroner in a county that does not have

a

> > medical

> > > > 1-11 examiner's office or that is not part of a medical

examiner's

> > > > 1-12 district [other officer performing similar functions]

> > shall submit

> > > > 1-13 a [, not later than the 10th day of each month:

> > > > 1-14 [(1)] report in writing to the department of the

> > > > death

> > > > 1-15 of a person that was [within the officer's jurisdiction

> > during the

> > > > 1-16 preceding calendar month as] the result of a traffic

> > accident to

> > > > 1-17 which this chapter applies and that occurred within the

> > > > 1-18 jurisdiction of the medical examiner or justice of the

> > peace in

> > > > the

> > > > 1-19 preceding calendar month.

> > > > 1-20 ( The [; and

> > > > 1-21 [(2)include in the] report must be submitted before

> > > > 1-22 the 11th day of each calendar month and include:

> > > > 1-23 (1) the name of the deceased and a statement as to

> > > > 1-24 whether the deceased was:

> > > > 2-1 (A) the operator of or a passenger in a vehicle

> > > > 2-2 involved in the

> > > > accident; or

> > > > 2-3 ( a pedestrian or other nonoccupant of a

> > > > 2-4 vehicle;

> > > > 2-5 (2) the date of the accident and the name of the

> > > > county

> > > > 2-6 in which the accident occurred;

> > > > 2-7 (3) the name of any laboratory, medical examiner's

> > > > 2-8 office, or other facility that conducted toxicological

testing

> > > > 2-9 relative to the deceased; and

> > > > 2-10 (4) the results of any toxicological testing that

> > > > was

> > > > 2-11 conducted [the time, place, and circumstances of the

> > accident].

> > > > 2-12 © A report required by this section shall be sent to:

> > > > 2-13 (1) the crash records bureau of the department at

> > > > its

> > > > 2-14 headquarters in Austin; or

> > > > 2-15 (2) any other office or bureau of the department

> > > > that

> > > > 2-16 the department designates.

> > > > 2-17 (d) If toxicological test results are not available to

the

> > > > 2-18 medical examiner or justice of the peace on the date a

> > report must

> > > > 2-19 be submitted, the medical examiner or justice shall:

> > > > 2-20 (1) submit a report that includes the statement

> > > > 2-21 " toxicological test results unavailable " 2-21

> > > > 2-22 (2) submit a supplement to the report that contains

> > > > 2-23 the information required by Subsections ((3) and (4)

as

> > soon as

> > > > 2-24 practicable after the toxicological test results become

> > available.

> > > > 2-25 (e) The department shall prepare and when requested

supply

> > > > 2-26 to medical examiners' offices and justices of the peace

> > the forms

> > > > 2-27 necessary to make the reports required by this section.

> > > > 3-1 SECTION 2. Subsection (j), Article 49.10, Code of Criminal

> > > > 3-2 Procedure, is amended to read as follows:

> > > > 3-3 (j) A justice of the peace shall [may] order a physician,

> > > > 3-4 qualified technician, [Previous Hit] paramedic [Next

Hit] ,

> > > > chemist, registered professional

> > > > 3-5 nurse, or licensed vocational nurse to take a specimen

of

> > blood

> > > > from

> > > > 3-6 the body of a person who died as the result of a motor

vehicle

> > > > 3-7 accident [if the justice determines that circumstances

> > indicate

> > > > 3-8 that the person may have been driving while intoxicated]

> > > > 3-9 SECTION 3. This Act takes effect September 1, 2007.

> > > >

> > >

January 4, 2007

Pursue what? What's the crime? Where is it described in the penal code?

What's the penalty? JPs don't just go around making up offenses,......well,

some do. As far as being contempt of court, that only happens in a court

proceeding. Contempt of JP on the ground, maybe, or contempt of cop, but not

contempt of court.

Be careful what you wish for.

Gene G.

>

> I would suppose that, ego vs. ego would ensue and the JP could pursue the

> proper channels against both the EMS agency (who employs the doctor) and the

> doctor since they are not abiding by the laws of the state...and as Paramedics

> and I am sure physicians..I would suppose that,

>

> Don't think being a doctor allows you to NOT follow the law...

>

> Dudley

>

> Re: EMS Blood Draws on Fatality Accidents

>

> -This question may have already been covered in the previous

> discussion, but here goes anyway. The bill states that the JP can

> order Paramedics to draw the blood of a decease patient, but what if

> your Medical Control Physician will not sign off on a protocol for

> that procedure. If you draw the sample will you be practicing

> medicine without a license, or if you refuse to draw the sample will

> you be arrested for violating Texas law?

>

> Mark

>

> -- In texasems-l@yahoogrotexasem, Mike <paramedicop@par> wrote:

> >

> > Contempt of court, most likely.

> >

> > Mike

> >

> > > My question is if the EMS personnel refuse to do the blood

> draws,

> > > what will happen? I do not see any teeth in the bill.

> > >

> > > Don

> > >

> > > ---- wegandy1938@ ---- wega

> > > > Mike, as I am sure you recall, this legislation was introduced

> in

> > > the last

> > > > session and opposed by practically everybody in the EMS

> > > community. It was

> > > > defeated.

> > > >

> > > > Rep. Corte will keep on re-introducing it until it either

> passes

> > > or he gets

> > > > defeated.

> > > >

> > > > I do not intend to go over the reasons for opposition to this

> > > Act, because it

> > > > was discussed to death on here last session.

> > > >

> > > > In my own personal judgment, and speaking for nobody but

> myself,

> > > I think it's

> > > > a bad piece of legislation, one that we will regret if it

> passes.

> > > >

> > > > I don't know what EMSAT's position on it will be this session.

> > > >

> > > > Gene G.

> > > > In a message dated 1/3/07 3:57:05 PM, paramedicop@ In a messa

> > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > Another interesting change in existing law is regarding

> fatality

> > > > > accidents where a JP makes a determination of death. In this

> case,

> > > > > the change is at the very end of the law, where JP's would be

> > > > > REQUIRED to order paramedics, etc. to take blood from the

> body

> > > of the

> > > > > deceased. Note that there is no rules for who does what with

> the

> > > > > blood AFTER that...

> > > > >

> > > > > Personally, I'd discuss this with your CA's and JP's to see

> what

> > > > > their take on this is.

> > > > >

> > > > > And remember, [] means that the text is redacted.

> > > > >

> > > > > Mike

> > > > >

> > > > > By: Corte H.B. No. 423

> > > > >

> > > > > A BILL TO BE ENTITLED

> > > > > 1-1

> > > > > AN ACT

> > > > > 1-2 relating to requiring that medical examiners and

> justices

> > > of the

> > > > > 1-3 peace report certain deaths that result from a motor

> vehicle

> > > > > 1-4 accident to the Texas Department of Public Safety.

> > > > > 1-5 BE IT ENACTED BY THE LEGISLATURE OF THE STATE OF TEXAS:

> > > > > 1-6 SECTION 1. Section 550.081, Transportation Code, is

> amended

> > > > > 1-7 to read as follows:

> > > > > 1-8 Sec. 550.081. [CORONER'S] REPORT OF MEDICAL EXAMINER OR

> > > > > 1-9 JUSTICE OF THE PEACE. (a) A medical examiner or justice

> of the

> > > > > 1-10 peace acting as coroner in a county that does not have

> a

> > > medical

> > > > > 1-11 examiner's office or that is not part of a medical

> examiner's

> > > > > 1-12 district [other officer performing similar functions]

> > > shall submit

> > > > > 1-13 a [, not later than the 10th day of each month:

> > > > > 1-14 [(1)] report in writing to the department of the

> > > > > death

> > > > > 1-15 of a person that was [within the officer's jurisdiction

> > > during the

> > > > > 1-16 preceding calendar month as] the result of a traffic

> > > accident to

> > > > > 1-17 which this chapter applies and that occurred within the

> > > > > 1-18 jurisdiction of the medical examiner or justice of the

> > > peace in

> > > > > the

> > > > > 1-19 preceding calendar month.

> > > > > 1-20 ( The [; and

> > > > > 1-21 [(2)include in the] report must be submitted before

> > > > > 1-22 the 11th day of each calendar month and include:

> > > > > 1-23 (1) the name of the deceased and a statement as to

> > > > > 1-24 whether the deceased was:

> > > > > 2-1 (A) the operator of or a passenger in a vehicle

> > > > > 2-2 involved in the

> > > > > accident; or

> > > > > 2-3 ( a pedestrian or other nonoccupant of a

> > > > > 2-4 vehicle;

> > > > > 2-5 (2) the date of the accident and the name of the

> > > > > county

> > > > > 2-6 in which the accident occurred;

> > > > > 2-7 (3) the name of any laboratory, medical examiner's

> > > > > 2-8 office, or other facility that conducted toxicological

> testing

> > > > > 2-9 relative to the deceased; and

> > > > > 2-10 (4) the results of any toxicological testing that

> > > > > was

> > > > > 2-11 conducted [the time, place, and circumstances of the

> > > accident].

> > > > > 2-12 © A report required by this section shall be sent to:

> > > > > 2-13 (1) the crash records bureau of the department at

> > > > > its

> > > > > 2-14 headquarters in Austin; or

> > > > > 2-15 (2) any other office or bureau of the department

> > > > > that

> > > > > 2-16 the department designates.

> > > > > 2-17 (d) If toxicological test results are not available to

> the

> > > > > 2-18 medical examiner or justice of the peace on the date a

> > > report must

> > > > > 2-19 be submitted, the medical examiner or justice shall:

> > > > > 2-20 (1) submit a report that includes the statement

> > > > > 2-21 " toxicological test results unavailable " 2-21

> > > > > 2-22 (2) submit a supplement to the report that contains

> > > > > 2-23 the information required by Subsections ((3) and (4)

> as

> > > soon as

> > > > > 2-24 practicable after the toxicological test results become

> > > available.

> > > > > 2-25 (e) The department shall prepare and when requested

> supply

> > > > > 2-26 to medical examiners' offices and justices of the peace

> > > the forms

> > > > > 2-27 necessary to make the reports required by this section.

> > > > > 3-1 SECTION 2. Subsection (j), Article 49.10, Code of Criminal

> > > > > 3-2 Procedure, is amended to read as follows:

> > > > > 3-3 (j) A justice of the peace shall [may] order a physician,

> > > > > 3-4 qualified technician, [Previous Hit] paramedic [Next

> Hit] ,

> > > > > chemist, registered professional

> > > > > 3-5 nurse, or licensed vocational nurse to take a specimen

> of

> > > blood

> > > > > from

> > > > > 3-6 the body of a person who died as the result of a motor

> vehicle

> > > > > 3-7 accident [if the justice determines that circumstances

> > > indicate

> > > > > 3-8 that the person may have been driving while intoxicated]

> > > > > 3-9 SECTION 3. This Act takes effect September 1, 2007.

> > > > >

> > > >

January 5, 2007

In a message dated 1/5/2007 8:55:29 A.M. Central Standard Time,

je.hill@... writes:

Don't know what happened after that because SOMEONE had to pronounce etc....

but it certainly wasn't us.

I assume that the patient remained dead?

Louis N. Molino, Sr., CET

FF/NREMT-B/FSI/EMSI

Freelance Consultant/Trainer/Author/Journalist/Fire Protection Consultant

LNMolino@...

(Cell Phone)

(Home Phone)

(IFW/TFW/FSS Office)

(IFW/TFW/FSS Fax)

" A Texan with a Jersey Attitude "

" Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds

discuss people " Eleanor Roosevelt - US diplomat & reformer (1884 - 1962)

The comments contained in this E-mail are the opinions of the author and the

author alone. I in no way ever intend to speak for any person or

organization that I am in any way whatsoever involved or associated with unless

I

specifically state that I am doing so. Further this E-mail is intended only for

its

stated recipient and may contain private and or confidential materials

retransmission is strictly prohibited unless placed in the public domain by the

original author.

January 5, 2007

JP's DO make it up as they go along sometimes. Recently, we terminated a CPR in

the field following Medical Control orders. We contacted the SO to send the JP.

The deputy arrived and took possession of the scene so our crew left. We found

out later that the JP refused to show up because he said that our EMS pronounced

and WE would have to sign the death certificate. (Apparently the JP didn't know

the definition of " clinically dead " versus " legally dead " - we only decided the

patient was " clinically dead " of course...) Don't know what happened after that

because SOMEONE had to pronounce etc.... but it certainly wasn't us.

Jane Hill

--------- Re: EMS Blood Draws on Fatality Accidents

>

> -This question may have already been covered in the previous

> discussion, but here goes anyway. The bill states that the JP can

> order Paramedics to draw the blood of a decease patient, but what if

> your Medical Control Physician will not sign off on a protocol for

> that procedure. If you draw the sample will you be practicing

> medicine without a license, or if you refuse to draw the sample will

> you be arrested for violating Texas law?

>

> Mark

>

> -- In texasems-l@yahoogrotexasem, Mike <paramedicop@par> wrote:

> >

> > Contempt of court, most likely.

> >

> > Mike

> >

> > > My question is if the EMS personnel refuse to do the blood

> draws,

> > > what will happen? I do not see any teeth in the bill.

> > >

> > > Don

> > >

> > > ---- wegandy1938@ ---- wega

> > > > Mike, as I am sure you recall, this legislation was introduced

> in

> > > the last

> > > > session and opposed by practically everybody in the EMS

> > > community. It was

> > > > defeated.

> > > >

> > > > Rep. Corte will keep on re-introducing it until it either

> passes

> > > or he gets

> > > > defeated.

> > > >

> > > > I do not intend to go over the reasons for opposition to this

> > > Act, because it

> > > > was discussed to death on here last session.

> > > >

> > > > In my own personal judgment, and speaking for nobody but

> myself,

> > > I think it's

> > > > a bad piece of legislation, one that we will regret if it

> passes.

> > > >

> > > > I don't know what EMSAT's position on it will be this session.

> > > >

> > > > Gene G.

> > > > In a message dated 1/3/07 3:57:05 PM, paramedicop@ In a messa

> > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > Another interesting change in existing law is regarding

> fatality

> > > > > accidents where a JP makes a determination of death. In this

> case,

> > > > > the change is at the very end of the law, where JP's would be

> > > > > REQUIRED to order paramedics, etc. to take blood from the

> body

> > > of the

> > > > > deceased. Note that there is no rules for who does what with

> the

> > > > > blood AFTER that...

> > > > >

> > > > > Personally, I'd discuss this with your CA's and JP's to see

> what

> > > > > their take on this is.

> > > > >

> > > > > And remember, [] means that the text is redacted.

> > > > >

> > > > > Mike

> > > > >

> > > > > By: Corte H.B. No. 423

> > > > >

> > > > > A BILL TO BE ENTITLED

> > > > > 1-1

> > > > > AN ACT

> > > > > 1-2 relating to requiring that medical examiners and

> justices

> > > of the

> > > > > 1-3 peace report certain deaths that result from a motor

> vehicle

> > > > > 1-4 accident to the Texas Department of Public Safety.

> > > > > 1-5 BE IT ENACTED BY THE LEGISLATURE OF THE STATE OF TEXAS:

> > > > > 1-6 SECTION 1. Section 550.081, Transportation Code, is

> amended

> > > > > 1-7 to read as follows:

> > > > > 1-8 Sec. 550.081. [CORONER'S] REPORT OF MEDICAL EXAMINER OR

> > > > > 1-9 JUSTICE OF THE PEACE. (a) A medical examiner or justice

> of the

> > > > > 1-10 peace acting as coroner in a county that does not have

> a

> > > medical

> > > > > 1-11 examiner's office or that is not part of a medical

> examiner's

> > > > > 1-12 district [other officer performing similar functions]

> > > shall submit

> > > > > 1-13 a [, not later than the 10th day of each month:

> > > > > 1-14 [(1)] report in writing to the department of the

> > > > > death

> > > > > 1-15 of a person that was [within the officer's jurisdiction

> > > during the

> > > > > 1-16 preceding calendar month as] the result of a traffic

> > > accident to

> > > > > 1-17 which this chapter applies and that occurred within the

> > > > > 1-18 jurisdiction of the medical examiner or justice of the

> > > peace in

> > > > > the

> > > > > 1-19 preceding calendar month.

> > > > > 1-20 ( The [; and

> > > > > 1-21 [(2)include in the] report must be submitted before

> > > > > 1-22 the 11th day of each calendar month and include:

> > > > > 1-23 (1) the name of the deceased and a statement as to

> > > > > 1-24 whether the deceased was:

> > > > > 2-1 (A) the operator of or a passenger in a vehicle

> > > > > 2-2 involved in the

> > > > > accident; or

> > > > > 2-3 ( a pedestrian or other nonoccupant of a

> > > > > 2-4 vehicle;

> > > > > 2-5 (2) the date of the accident and the name of the

> > > > > county

> > > > > 2-6 in which the accident occurred;

> > > > > 2-7 (3) the name of any laboratory, medical examiner's

> > > > > 2-8 office, or other facility that conducted toxicological

> testing

> > > > > 2-9 relative to the deceased; and

> > > > > 2-10 (4) the results of any toxicological testing that

> > > > > was

> > > > > 2-11 conducted [the time, place, and circumstances of the

> > > accident].

> > > > > 2-12 © A report required by this section shall be sent to:

> > > > > 2-13 (1) the crash records bureau of the department at

> > > > > its

> > > > > 2-14 headquarters in Austin; or

> > > > > 2-15 (2) any other office or bureau of the department

> > > > > that

> > > > > 2-16 the department designates.

> > > > > 2-17 (d) If toxicological test results are not available to

> the

> > > > > 2-18 medical examiner or justice of the peace on the date a

> > > report must

> > > > > 2-19 be submitted, the medical examiner or justice shall:

> > > > > 2-20 (1) submit a report that includes the statement

> > > > > 2-21 " toxicological test results unavailable " 2-21

> > > > > 2-22 (2) submit a supplement to the report that contains

> > > > > 2-23 the information required by Subsections ((3) and (4)

> as

> > > soon as

> > > > > 2-24 practicable after the toxicological test results become

> > > available.

> > > > > 2-25 (e) The department shall prepare and when requested

> supply

> > > > > 2-26 to medical examiners' offices and justices of the peace

> > > the forms

> > > > > 2-27 necessary to make the reports required by this section.

> > > > > 3-1 SECTION 2. Subsection (j), Article 49.10, Code of Criminal

> > > > > 3-2 Procedure, is amended to read as follows:

> > > > > 3-3 (j) A justice of the peace shall [may] order a physician,

> > > > > 3-4 qualified technician, [Previous Hit] paramedic [Next

> Hit] ,

> > > > > chemist, registered professional

> > > > > 3-5 nurse, or licensed vocational nurse to take a specimen

> of

> > > blood

> > > > > from

> > > > > 3-6 the body of a person who died as the result of a motor

> vehicle

> > > > > 3-7 accident [if the justice determines that circumstances

> > > indicate

> > > > > 3-8 that the person may have been driving while intoxicated]

> > > > > 3-9 SECTION 3. This Act takes effect September 1, 2007.

> > > > >

> > > >

January 5, 2007

Hope they did not remain among the " un-dead " for too long.....

>>> 1/5/2007 8:43 am >>>

JP's DO make it up as they go along sometimes. Recently, we terminated

a CPR in the field following Medical Control orders. We contacted the

SO to send the JP. The deputy arrived and took possession of the scene

so our crew left. We found out later that the JP refused to show up

because he said that our EMS pronounced and WE would have to sign the

death certificate. (Apparently the JP didn't know the definition of

" clinically dead " versus " legally dead " - we only decided the patient

was " clinically dead " of course...) Don't know what happened after that

because SOMEONE had to pronounce etc.... but it certainly wasn't us.

Jane Hill

--------- Re: EMS Blood Draws on Fatality Accidents

>

> -This question may have already been covered in the previous

> discussion, but here goes anyway. The bill states that the JP can

> order Paramedics to draw the blood of a decease patient, but what if

> your Medical Control Physician will not sign off on a protocol for

> that procedure. If you draw the sample will you be practicing

> medicine without a license, or if you refuse to draw the sample will

> you be arrested for violating Texas law?

>

> Mark

>

> -- In texasems-l@yahoogrotexasem, Mike <paramedicop@par> wrote:

> >

> > Contempt of court, most likely.

> >

> > Mike

> >

> > > My question is if the EMS personnel refuse to do the blood

> draws,

> > > what will happen? I do not see any teeth in the bill.

> > >

> > > Don

> > >

> > > ---- wegandy1938@ ---- wega

> > > > Mike, as I am sure you recall, this legislation was introduced

> in

> > > the last

> > > > session and opposed by practically everybody in the EMS

> > > community. It was

> > > > defeated.

> > > >

> > > > Rep. Corte will keep on re-introducing it until it either

> passes

> > > or he gets

> > > > defeated.

> > > >

> > > > I do not intend to go over the reasons for opposition to this

> > > Act, because it

> > > > was discussed to death on here last session.

> > > >

> > > > In my own personal judgment, and speaking for nobody but

> myself,

> > > I think it's

> > > > a bad piece of legislation, one that we will regret if it

> passes.

> > > >

> > > > I don't know what EMSAT's position on it will be this session.

> > > >

> > > > Gene G.

> > > > In a message dated 1/3/07 3:57:05 PM, paramedicop@ In a messa

> > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > Another interesting change in existing law is regarding

> fatality

> > > > > accidents where a JP makes a determination of death. In this

> case,

> > > > > the change is at the very end of the law, where JP's would

be

> > > > > REQUIRED to order paramedics, etc. to take blood from the

> body

> > > of the

> > > > > deceased. Note that there is no rules for who does what with

> the

> > > > > blood AFTER that...

> > > > >

> > > > > Personally, I'd discuss this with your CA's and JP's to see

> what

> > > > > their take on this is.

> > > > >

> > > > > And remember, [] means that the text is redacted.

> > > > >

> > > > > Mike

> > > > >

> > > > > By: Corte H.B. No. 423

> > > > >

> > > > > A BILL TO BE ENTITLED

> > > > > 1-1

> > > > > AN ACT

> > > > > 1-2 relating to requiring that medical examiners and

> justices

> > > of the

> > > > > 1-3 peace report certain deaths that result from a motor

> vehicle

> > > > > 1-4 accident to the Texas Department of Public Safety.

> > > > > 1-5 BE IT ENACTED BY THE LEGISLATURE OF THE STATE OF TEXAS:

> > > > > 1-6 SECTION 1. Section 550.081, Transportation Code, is

> amended

> > > > > 1-7 to read as follows:

> > > > > 1-8 Sec. 550.081. [CORONER'S] REPORT OF MEDICAL EXAMINER OR

> > > > > 1-9 JUSTICE OF THE PEACE. (a) A medical examiner or justice

> of the

> > > > > 1-10 peace acting as coroner in a county that does not have

> a

> > > medical

> > > > > 1-11 examiner's office or that is not part of a medical

> examiner's

> > > > > 1-12 district [other officer performing similar functions]

> > > shall submit

> > > > > 1-13 a [, not later than the 10th day of each month:

> > > > > 1-14 [(1)] report in writing to the department of the

> > > > > death

> > > > > 1-15 of a person that was [within the officer's jurisdiction

> > > during the

> > > > > 1-16 preceding calendar month as] the result of a traffic

> > > accident to

> > > > > 1-17 which this chapter applies and that occurred within the

> > > > > 1-18 jurisdiction of the medical examiner or justice of the

> > > peace in

> > > > > the

> > > > > 1-19 preceding calendar month.

> > > > > 1-20 ( The [; and

> > > > > 1-21 [(2)include in the] report must be submitted before

> > > > > 1-22 the 11th day of each calendar month and include:

> > > > > 1-23 (1) the name of the deceased and a statement as to

> > > > > 1-24 whether the deceased was:

> > > > > 2-1 (A) the operator of or a passenger in a vehicle

> > > > > 2-2 involved in the

> > > > > accident; or

> > > > > 2-3 ( a pedestrian or other nonoccupant of a

> > > > > 2-4 vehicle;

> > > > > 2-5 (2) the date of the accident and the name of the

> > > > > county

> > > > > 2-6 in which the accident occurred;

> > > > > 2-7 (3) the name of any laboratory, medical examiner's

> > > > > 2-8 office, or other facility that conducted toxicological

> testing

> > > > > 2-9 relative to the deceased; and

> > > > > 2-10 (4) the results of any toxicological testing that

> > > > > was

> > > > > 2-11 conducted [the time, place, and circumstances of the

> > > accident].

> > > > > 2-12 © A report required by this section shall be sent to:

> > > > > 2-13 (1) the crash records bureau of the department at

> > > > > its

> > > > > 2-14 headquarters in Austin; or

> > > > > 2-15 (2) any other office or bureau of the department

> > > > > that

> > > > > 2-16 the department designates.

> > > > > 2-17 (d) If toxicological test results are not available to

> the

> > > > > 2-18 medical examiner or justice of the peace on the date a

> > > report must

> > > > > 2-19 be submitted, the medical examiner or justice shall:

> > > > > 2-20 (1) submit a report that includes the statement

> > > > > 2-21 " toxicological test results unavailable " 2-21

> > > > > 2-22 (2) submit a supplement to the report that contains

> > > > > 2-23 the information required by Subsections ((3) and (4)

> as

> > > soon as

> > > > > 2-24 practicable after the toxicological test results become

> > > available.

> > > > > 2-25 (e) The department shall prepare and when requested

> supply

> > > > > 2-26 to medical examiners' offices and justices of the peace

> > > the forms

> > > > > 2-27 necessary to make the reports required by this section.

> > > > > 3-1 SECTION 2. Subsection (j), Article 49.10, Code of

Criminal

> > > > > 3-2 Procedure, is amended to read as follows:

> > > > > 3-3 (j) A justice of the peace shall [may] order a

physician,

> > > > > 3-4 qualified technician, [Previous Hit] paramedic [Next

> Hit] ,

> > > > > chemist, registered professional

> > > > > 3-5 nurse, or licensed vocational nurse to take a specimen

> of

> > > blood

> > > > > from

> > > > > 3-6 the body of a person who died as the result of a motor

> vehicle

> > > > > 3-7 accident [if the justice determines that circumstances

> > > indicate

> > > > > 3-8 that the person may have been driving while intoxicated]

> > > > > 3-9 SECTION 3. This Act takes effect September 1, 2007.

> > > > >

> > > >

January 5, 2007

HeeHee - that's funny right there. I don't care WHO ya are.

Jane

--------- Re: EMS Blood Draws on Fatality Accidents

>

> -This question may have already been covered in the previous

> discussion, but here goes anyway. The bill states that the JP can

> order Paramedics to draw the blood of a decease patient, but what if

> your Medical Control Physician will not sign off on a protocol for

> that procedure. If you draw the sample will you be practicing

> medicine without a license, or if you refuse to draw the sample will

> you be arrested for violating Texas law?

>

> Mark

>

> -- In texasems-l@yahoogrotexasem, Mike <paramedicop@par> wrote:

> >

> > Contempt of court, most likely.

> >

> > Mike

> >

> > > My question is if the EMS personnel refuse to do the blood

> draws,

> > > what will happen? I do not see any teeth in the bill.

> > >

> > > Don

> > >

> > > ---- wegandy1938@ ---- wega

> > > > Mike, as I am sure you recall, this legislation was introduced

> in

> > > the last

> > > > session and opposed by practically everybody in the EMS

> > > community. It was

> > > > defeated.

> > > >

> > > > Rep. Corte will keep on re-introducing it until it either

> passes

> > > or he gets

> > > > defeated.

> > > >

> > > > I do not intend to go over the reasons for opposition to this

> > > Act, because it

> > > > was discussed to death on here last session.

> > > >

> > > > In my own personal judgment, and speaking for nobody but

> myself,

> > > I think it's

> > > > a bad piece of legislation, one that we will regret if it

> passes.

> > > >

> > > > I don't know what EMSAT's position on it will be this session.

> > > >

> > > > Gene G.

> > > > In a message dated 1/3/07 3:57:05 PM, paramedicop@ In a messa

> > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > Another interesting change in existing law is regarding

> fatality

> > > > > accidents where a JP makes a determination of death. In this

> case,

> > > > > the change is at the very end of the law, where JP's would

be

> > > > > REQUIRED to order paramedics, etc. to take blood from the

> body

> > > of the

> > > > > deceased. Note that there is no rules for who does what with

> the

> > > > > blood AFTER that...

> > > > >

> > > > > Personally, I'd discuss this with your CA's and JP's to see

> what

> > > > > their take on this is.

> > > > >

> > > > > And remember, [] means that the text is redacted.

> > > > >

> > > > > Mike

> > > > >

> > > > > By: Corte H.B. No. 423

> > > > >

> > > > > A BILL TO BE ENTITLED

> > > > > 1-1

> > > > > AN ACT

> > > > > 1-2 relating to requiring that medical examiners and

> justices

> > > of the

> > > > > 1-3 peace report certain deaths that result from a motor

> vehicle

> > > > > 1-4 accident to the Texas Department of Public Safety.

> > > > > 1-5 BE IT ENACTED BY THE LEGISLATURE OF THE STATE OF TEXAS:

> > > > > 1-6 SECTION 1. Section 550.081, Transportation Code, is

> amended

> > > > > 1-7 to read as follows:

> > > > > 1-8 Sec. 550.081. [CORONER'S] REPORT OF MEDICAL EXAMINER OR

> > > > > 1-9 JUSTICE OF THE PEACE. (a) A medical examiner or justice

> of the

> > > > > 1-10 peace acting as coroner in a county that does not have

> a

> > > medical

> > > > > 1-11 examiner's office or that is not part of a medical

> examiner's

> > > > > 1-12 district [other officer performing similar functions]

> > > shall submit

> > > > > 1-13 a [, not later than the 10th day of each month:

> > > > > 1-14 [(1)] report in writing to the department of the

> > > > > death

> > > > > 1-15 of a person that was [within the officer's jurisdiction

> > > during the

> > > > > 1-16 preceding calendar month as] the result of a traffic

> > > accident to

> > > > > 1-17 which this chapter applies and that occurred within the

> > > > > 1-18 jurisdiction of the medical examiner or justice of the

> > > peace in

> > > > > the

> > > > > 1-19 preceding calendar month.

> > > > > 1-20 ( The [; and

> > > > > 1-21 [(2)include in the] report must be submitted before

> > > > > 1-22 the 11th day of each calendar month and include:

> > > > > 1-23 (1) the name of the deceased and a statement as to

> > > > > 1-24 whether the deceased was:

> > > > > 2-1 (A) the operator of or a passenger in a vehicle

> > > > > 2-2 involved in the

> > > > > accident; or

> > > > > 2-3 ( a pedestrian or other nonoccupant of a

> > > > > 2-4 vehicle;

> > > > > 2-5 (2) the date of the accident and the name of the

> > > > > county

> > > > > 2-6 in which the accident occurred;

> > > > > 2-7 (3) the name of any laboratory, medical examiner's

> > > > > 2-8 office, or other facility that conducted toxicological

> testing

> > > > > 2-9 relative to the deceased; and

> > > > > 2-10 (4) the results of any toxicological testing that

> > > > > was

> > > > > 2-11 conducted [the time, place, and circumstances of the

> > > accident].

> > > > > 2-12 © A report required by this section shall be sent to:

> > > > > 2-13 (1) the crash records bureau of the department at

> > > > > its

> > > > > 2-14 headquarters in Austin; or

> > > > > 2-15 (2) any other office or bureau of the department

> > > > > that

> > > > > 2-16 the department designates.

> > > > > 2-17 (d) If toxicological test results are not available to

> the

> > > > > 2-18 medical examiner or justice of the peace on the date a

> > > report must

> > > > > 2-19 be submitted, the medical examiner or justice shall:

> > > > > 2-20 (1) submit a report that includes the statement

> > > > > 2-21 " toxicological test results unavailable " 2-21

> > > > > 2-22 (2) submit a supplement to the report that contains

> > > > > 2-23 the information required by Subsections ((3) and (4)

> as

> > > soon as

> > > > > 2-24 practicable after the toxicological test results become

> > > available.

> > > > > 2-25 (e) The department shall prepare and when requested

> supply

> > > > > 2-26 to medical examiners' offices and justices of the peace

> > > the forms

> > > > > 2-27 necessary to make the reports required by this section.

> > > > > 3-1 SECTION 2. Subsection (j), Article 49.10, Code of

Criminal

> > > > > 3-2 Procedure, is amended to read as follows:

> > > > > 3-3 (j) A justice of the peace shall [may] order a

physician,

> > > > > 3-4 qualified technician, [Previous Hit] paramedic [Next

> Hit] ,

> > > > > chemist, registered professional

> > > > > 3-5 nurse, or licensed vocational nurse to take a specimen

> of

> > > blood

> > > > > from

> > > > > 3-6 the body of a person who died as the result of a motor

> vehicle

> > > > > 3-7 accident [if the justice determines that circumstances

> > > indicate

> > > > > 3-8 that the person may have been driving while intoxicated]

> > > > > 3-9 SECTION 3. This Act takes effect September 1, 2007.

> > > > >

> > > >

January 5, 2007

As long as it has mandatory provisions, I won't support it.

Gene

>

> Gene,

>

> I personally agree that it is a bad piece of legislation and although I have

> not heard from all of the TAA members yet, I suspect that our organization

> will come out against it again as well. There have been some changes made to

> the bill that make it better than the one introduced last session but it still

> has a long ways to go before I personally could support it.

>

> Dave

>

> wegandy1938@wegandy wrote:

> Mike, as I am sure you recall, this legislation was introduced in the last

> session and opposed by practically everybody in the EMS community. It was

> defeated.

>

> Rep. Corte will keep on re-introducing it until it either passes or he gets

> defeated.

>

> I do not intend to go over the reasons for opposition to this Act, because

> it

> was discussed to death on here last session.

>

> In my own personal judgment, and speaking for nobody but myself, I think

> it's

> a bad piece of legislation, one that we will regret if it passes.

>

> I don't know what EMSAT's position on it will be this session.

>

> Gene G.

> In a message dated 1/3/07 3:57:05 PM, paramedicop@paramedic writes:

>

> >

> > Another interesting change in existing law is regarding fatality

> > accidents where a JP makes a determination of death. In this case,

> > the change is at the very end of the law, where JP's would be

> > REQUIRED to order paramedics, etc. to take blood from the body of the

> > deceased. Note that there is no rules for who does what with the

> > blood AFTER that...

> >

> > Personally, I'd discuss this with your CA's and JP's to see what

> > their take on this is.

> >

> > And remember, [] means that the text is redacted.

> >

> > Mike

> >

> > By: Corte H.B. No. 423

> >

> > A BILL TO BE ENTITLED

> > 1-1

> > AN ACT

> > 1-2 relating to requiring that medical examiners and justices of the

> > 1-3 peace report certain deaths that result from a motor vehicle

> > 1-4 accident to the Texas Department of Public Safety.

> > 1-5 BE IT ENACTED BY THE LEGISLATURE OF THE STATE OF TEXAS:

> > 1-6 SECTION 1. Section 550.081, Transportation Code, is amended

> > 1-7 to read as follows:

> > 1-8 Sec. 550.081. [CORONER'S] REPORT OF MEDICAL EXAMINER OR

> > 1-9 JUSTICE OF THE PEACE. (a) A medical examiner or justice of the

> > 1-10 peace acting as coroner in a county that does not have a medical

> > 1-11 examiner's office or that is not part of a medical examiner's

> > 1-12 district [other officer performing similar functions] shall submit

> > 1-13 a [, not later than the 10th day of each month:

> > 1-14 [(1)] report in writing to the department of the

> > death

> > 1-15 of a person that was [within the officer's jurisdiction during the

> > 1-16 preceding calendar month as] the result of a traffic accident to

> > 1-17 which this chapter applies and that occurred within the

> > 1-18 jurisdiction of the medical examiner or justice of the peace in

> > the

> > 1-19 preceding calendar month.

> > 1-20 ( The [; and

> > 1-21 [(2)include in the] report must be submitted before

> > 1-22 the 11th day of each calendar month and include:

> > 1-23 (1) the name of the deceased and a statement as to

> > 1-24 whether the deceased was:

> > 2-1 (A) the operator of or a passenger in a vehicle

> > 2-2 involved in the

> > accident; or

> > 2-3 ( a pedestrian or other nonoccupant of a

> > 2-4 vehicle;

> > 2-5 (2) the date of the accident and the name of the

> > county

> > 2-6 in which the accident occurred;

> > 2-7 (3) the name of any laboratory, medical examiner's

> > 2-8 office, or other facility that conducted toxicological testing

> > 2-9 relative to the deceased; and

> > 2-10 (4) the results of any toxicological testing that

> > was

> > 2-11 conducted [the time, place, and circumstances of the accident].

> > 2-12 © A report required by this section shall be sent to:

> > 2-13 (1) the crash records bureau of the department at

> > its

> > 2-14 headquarters in Austin; or

> > 2-15 (2) any other office or bureau of the department

> > that

> > 2-16 the department designates.

> > 2-17 (d) If toxicological test results are not available to the

> > 2-18 medical examiner or justice of the peace on the date a report must

> > 2-19 be submitted, the medical examiner or justice shall:

> > 2-20 (1) submit a report that includes the statement

> > 2-21 " toxicological test results unavailable " 2-21

> > 2-22 (2) submit a supplement to the report that contains

> > 2-23 the information required by Subsections ((3) and (4) as soon as

> > 2-24 practicable after the toxicological test results become available.

> > 2-25 (e) The department shall prepare and when requested supply

> > 2-26 to medical examiners' offices and justices of the peace the forms

> > 2-27 necessary to make the reports required by this section.

> > 3-1 SECTION 2. Subsection (j), Article 49.10, Code of Criminal

> > 3-2 Procedure, is amended to read as follows:

> > 3-3 (j) A justice of the peace shall [may] order a physician,

> > 3-4 qualified technician, [Previous Hit] paramedic [Next Hit] ,

> > chemist, registered professional

> > 3-5 nurse, or licensed vocational nurse to take a specimen of blood

> > from

> > 3-6 the body of a person who died as the result of a motor vehicle

> > 3-7 accident [if the justice determines that circumstances indicate

> > 3-8 that the person may have been driving while intoxicated]

> > 3-9 SECTION 3. This Act takes effect September 1, 2007.

> >

>

January 5, 2007

Gene,

I personally agree that it is a bad piece of legislation and although I have

not heard from all of the TAA members yet, I suspect that our organization will

come out against it again as well. There have been some changes made to the bill

that make it better than the one introduced last session but it still has a long

ways to go before I personally could support it.

Dave

wegandy1938@... wrote:

Mike, as I am sure you recall, this legislation was introduced in the

last

session and opposed by practically everybody in the EMS community. It was

defeated.

Rep. Corte will keep on re-introducing it until it either passes or he gets

defeated.

I do not intend to go over the reasons for opposition to this Act, because it

was discussed to death on here last session.

In my own personal judgment, and speaking for nobody but myself, I think it's

a bad piece of legislation, one that we will regret if it passes.

I don't know what EMSAT's position on it will be this session.

Gene G.

>

> Another interesting change in existing law is regarding fatality

> accidents where a JP makes a determination of death. In this case,

> the change is at the very end of the law, where JP's would be

> REQUIRED to order paramedics, etc. to take blood from the body of the

> deceased. Note that there is no rules for who does what with the

> blood AFTER that...

>

> Personally, I'd discuss this with your CA's and JP's to see what

> their take on this is.

>

> And remember, [] means that the text is redacted.

>

> Mike

>

> By: Corte H.B. No. 423

>

> A BILL TO BE ENTITLED

> 1-1

> AN ACT

> 1-2 relating to requiring that medical examiners and justices of the

> 1-3 peace report certain deaths that result from a motor vehicle

> 1-4 accident to the Texas Department of Public Safety.

> 1-5 BE IT ENACTED BY THE LEGISLATURE OF THE STATE OF TEXAS:

> 1-6 SECTION 1. Section 550.081, Transportation Code, is amended

> 1-7 to read as follows:

> 1-8 Sec. 550.081. [CORONER'S] REPORT OF MEDICAL EXAMINER OR

> 1-9 JUSTICE OF THE PEACE. (a) A medical examiner or justice of the

> 1-10 peace acting as coroner in a county that does not have a medical

> 1-11 examiner's office or that is not part of a medical examiner's

> 1-12 district [other officer performing similar functions] shall submit

> 1-13 a [, not later than the 10th day of each month:

> 1-14 [(1)] report in writing to the department of the

> death

> 1-15 of a person that was [within the officer's jurisdiction during the

> 1-16 preceding calendar month as] the result of a traffic accident to

> 1-17 which this chapter applies and that occurred within the

> 1-18 jurisdiction of the medical examiner or justice of the peace in

> the

> 1-19 preceding calendar month.

> 1-20 ( The [; and

> 1-21 [(2)include in the] report must be submitted before

> 1-22 the 11th day of each calendar month and include:

> 1-23 (1) the name of the deceased and a statement as to

> 1-24 whether the deceased was:

> 2-1 (A) the operator of or a passenger in a vehicle

> 2-2 involved in the

> accident; or

> 2-3 ( a pedestrian or other nonoccupant of a

> 2-4 vehicle;

> 2-5 (2) the date of the accident and the name of the

> county

> 2-6 in which the accident occurred;

> 2-7 (3) the name of any laboratory, medical examiner's

> 2-8 office, or other facility that conducted toxicological testing

> 2-9 relative to the deceased; and

> 2-10 (4) the results of any toxicological testing that

> was

> 2-11 conducted [the time, place, and circumstances of the accident].

> 2-12 © A report required by this section shall be sent to:

> 2-13 (1) the crash records bureau of the department at

> its

> 2-14 headquarters in Austin; or

> 2-15 (2) any other office or bureau of the department

> that

> 2-16 the department designates.

> 2-17 (d) If toxicological test results are not available to the

> 2-18 medical examiner or justice of the peace on the date a report must

> 2-19 be submitted, the medical examiner or justice shall:

> 2-20 (1) submit a report that includes the statement

> 2-21 " toxicological test results unavailable " 2-21

> 2-22 (2) submit a supplement to the report that contains

> 2-23 the information required by Subsections ((3) and (4) as soon as

> 2-24 practicable after the toxicological test results become available.

> 2-25 (e) The department shall prepare and when requested supply

> 2-26 to medical examiners' offices and justices of the peace the forms

> 2-27 necessary to make the reports required by this section.

> 3-1 SECTION 2. Subsection (j), Article 49.10, Code of Criminal

> 3-2 Procedure, is amended to read as follows:

> 3-3 (j) A justice of the peace shall [may] order a physician,

> 3-4 qualified technician, [Previous Hit] paramedic [Next Hit] ,

> chemist, registered professional

> 3-5 nurse, or licensed vocational nurse to take a specimen of blood

> from

> 3-6 the body of a person who died as the result of a motor vehicle

> 3-7 accident [if the justice determines that circumstances indicate

> 3-8 that the person may have been driving while intoxicated]

> 3-9 SECTION 3. This Act takes effect September 1, 2007.

>

January 5, 2007

Mike,

Right and since the Paramedic drew it who do you think is going to get roasted

on the witness stand.

Mike wrote:

Note that there is no rules for who does what with the blood AFTER

that...

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January 5, 2007

I don't know how legal this law is??? Is JP a physician? No. Is a JP a peace

officer under CCP 2.12 (3) " who are peace officers " again, No. what authority

would a JP have to " order " a paramedic (whose authority to perform invasive

procedures in the field comes from a physician) to do anything?? I'd be calling

medical control real quick like and aksing for advice if I was in this

situation.

yes i realize this law gives them to authority but that contradicts where a

paramedics' ability to practice comes from (a doctor)

imho,

jim davis

Mike wrote:

Another interesting change in existing law is regarding fatality

accidents where a JP makes a determination of death. In this case,

the change is at the very end of the law, where JP's would be

REQUIRED to order paramedics, etc. to take blood from the body of the

deceased. Note that there is no rules for who does what with the

blood AFTER that...

Personally, I'd discuss this with your CA's and JP's to see what

their take on this is.

And remember, [] means that the text is redacted.

Mike

By: Corte H.B. No. 423

A BILL TO BE ENTITLED

1-1

AN ACT

1-2 relating to requiring that medical examiners and justices of the

1-3 peace report certain deaths that result from a motor vehicle

1-4 accident to the Texas Department of Public Safety.

1-5 BE IT ENACTED BY THE LEGISLATURE OF THE STATE OF TEXAS:

1-6 SECTION 1. Section 550.081, Transportation Code, is amended

1-7 to read as follows:

1-8 Sec. 550.081. [CORONER'S] REPORT OF MEDICAL EXAMINER OR

1-9 JUSTICE OF THE PEACE. (a) A medical examiner or justice of the

1-10 peace acting as coroner in a county that does not have a medical

1-11 examiner's office or that is not part of a medical examiner's

1-12 district [other officer performing similar functions] shall submit

1-13 a [, not later than the 10th day of each month:

1-14 [(1)] report in writing to the department of the

death

1-15 of a person that was [within the officer's jurisdiction during the

1-16 preceding calendar month as] the result of a traffic accident to

1-17 which this chapter applies and that occurred within the

1-18 jurisdiction of the medical examiner or justice of the peace in

the

1-19 preceding calendar month.

1-20 ( The [; and

1-21 [(2)include in the] report must be submitted before

1-22 the 11th day of each calendar month and include:

1-23 (1) the name of the deceased and a statement as to

1-24 whether the deceased was:

2-1 (A) the operator of or a passenger in a vehicle

2-2 involved in the

accident; or

2-3 ( a pedestrian or other nonoccupant of a

2-4 vehicle;

2-5 (2) the date of the accident and the name of the

county

2-6 in which the accident occurred;

2-7 (3) the name of any laboratory, medical examiner's

2-8 office, or other facility that conducted toxicological testing

2-9 relative to the deceased; and

2-10 (4) the results of any toxicological testing that

was

2-11 conducted [the time, place, and circumstances of the accident].

2-12 © A report required by this section shall be sent to:

2-13 (1) the crash records bureau of the department at

its

2-14 headquarters in Austin; or

2-15 (2) any other office or bureau of the department

that

2-16 the department designates.

2-17 (d) If toxicological test results are not available to the

2-18 medical examiner or justice of the peace on the date a report must

2-19 be submitted, the medical examiner or justice shall:

2-20 (1) submit a report that includes the statement

2-21 " toxicological test results unavailable " ; and

2-22 (2) submit a supplement to the report that contains

2-23 the information required by Subsections ((3) and (4) as soon as

2-24 practicable after the toxicological test results become available.

2-25 (e) The department shall prepare and when requested supply

2-26 to medical examiners' offices and justices of the peace the forms

2-27 necessary to make the reports required by this section.

3-1 SECTION 2. Subsection (j), Article 49.10, Code of Criminal

3-2 Procedure, is amended to read as follows:

3-3 (j) A justice of the peace shall [may] order a physician,

3-4 qualified technician, [Previous Hit] paramedic [Next Hit] ,

chemist, registered professional

3-5 nurse, or licensed vocational nurse to take a specimen of blood

from

3-6 the body of a person who died as the result of a motor vehicle

3-7 accident [if the justice determines that circumstances indicate

3-8 that the person may have been driving while intoxicated].

3-9 SECTION 3. This Act takes effect September 1, 2007.

__________________________________________________

January 5, 2007

If you draw the sample will you be practicing

medicine without a license, i think the preceding is correct

imho,

jim davis

markpo95 wrote: -This

question may have already been covered in the previous

discussion, but here goes anyway. The bill states that the JP can

order Paramedics to draw the blood of a decease patient, but what if

your Medical Control Physician will not sign off on a protocol for

that procedure. If you draw the sample will you be practicing

medicine without a license, or if you refuse to draw the sample will

you be arrested for violating Texas law?

Mark

-- In texasems-l , Mike wrote:

>

> Contempt of court, most likely.

>

> Mike

>

> > My question is if the EMS personnel refuse to do the blood

draws,

> > what will happen? I do not see any teeth in the bill.

> >

> > Don

> >

> > ---- wegandy1938@... wrote:

> > > Mike, as I am sure you recall, this legislation was introduced

in

> > the last

> > > session and opposed by practically everybody in the EMS

> > community. It was

> > > defeated.

> > >

> > > Rep. Corte will keep on re-introducing it until it either

passes

> > or he gets

> > > defeated.

> > >

> > > I do not intend to go over the reasons for opposition to this

> > Act, because it

> > > was discussed to death on here last session.

> > >

> > > In my own personal judgment, and speaking for nobody but

myself,

> > I think it's

> > > a bad piece of legislation, one that we will regret if it

passes.

> > >

> > > I don't know what EMSAT's position on it will be this session.

> > >

> > > Gene G.

> > >

> > > >

> > > > Another interesting change in existing law is regarding

fatality

> > > > accidents where a JP makes a determination of death. In this

case,

> > > > the change is at the very end of the law, where JP's would be

> > > > REQUIRED to order paramedics, etc. to take blood from the

body

> > of the

> > > > deceased. Note that there is no rules for who does what with

the

> > > > blood AFTER that...

> > > >

> > > > Personally, I'd discuss this with your CA's and JP's to see

what

> > > > their take on this is.

> > > >

> > > > And remember, [] means that the text is redacted.

> > > >

> > > > Mike

> > > >

> > > > By: Corte H.B. No. 423

> > > >

> > > > A BILL TO BE ENTITLED

> > > > 1-1

> > > > AN ACT

> > > > 1-2 relating to requiring that medical examiners and

justices

> > of the

> > > > 1-3 peace report certain deaths that result from a motor

vehicle

> > > > 1-4 accident to the Texas Department of Public Safety.

> > > > 1-5 BE IT ENACTED BY THE LEGISLATURE OF THE STATE OF TEXAS:

> > > > 1-6 SECTION 1. Section 550.081, Transportation Code, is

amended

> > > > 1-7 to read as follows:

> > > > 1-8 Sec. 550.081. [CORONER'S] REPORT OF MEDICAL EXAMINER OR

> > > > 1-9 JUSTICE OF THE PEACE. (a) A medical examiner or justice

of the

> > > > 1-10 peace acting as coroner in a county that does not have

a

> > medical

> > > > 1-11 examiner's office or that is not part of a medical

examiner's

> > > > 1-12 district [other officer performing similar functions]

> > shall submit

> > > > 1-13 a [, not later than the 10th day of each month:

> > > > 1-14 [(1)] report in writing to the department of the

> > > > death

> > > > 1-15 of a person that was [within the officer's jurisdiction

> > during the

> > > > 1-16 preceding calendar month as] the result of a traffic

> > accident to

> > > > 1-17 which this chapter applies and that occurred within the

> > > > 1-18 jurisdiction of the medical examiner or justice of the

> > peace in

> > > > the

> > > > 1-19 preceding calendar month.

> > > > 1-20 ( The [; and

> > > > 1-21 [(2)include in the] report must be submitted before

> > > > 1-22 the 11th day of each calendar month and include:

> > > > 1-23 (1) the name of the deceased and a statement as to

> > > > 1-24 whether the deceased was:

> > > > 2-1 (A) the operator of or a passenger in a vehicle

> > > > 2-2 involved in the

> > > > accident; or

> > > > 2-3 ( a pedestrian or other nonoccupant of a

> > > > 2-4 vehicle;

> > > > 2-5 (2) the date of the accident and the name of the

> > > > county

> > > > 2-6 in which the accident occurred;

> > > > 2-7 (3) the name of any laboratory, medical examiner's

> > > > 2-8 office, or other facility that conducted toxicological

testing

> > > > 2-9 relative to the deceased; and

> > > > 2-10 (4) the results of any toxicological testing that

> > > > was

> > > > 2-11 conducted [the time, place, and circumstances of the

> > accident].

> > > > 2-13 (1) the crash records bureau of the department at

> > > > its

> > > > 2-14 headquarters in Austin; or

> > > > 2-15 (2) any other office or bureau of the department

> > > > that

> > > > 2-16 the department designates.

> > > > 2-17 (d) If toxicological test results are not available to

the

> > > > 2-18 medical examiner or justice of the peace on the date a

> > report must

> > > > 2-19 be submitted, the medical examiner or justice shall:

> > > > 2-20 (1) submit a report that includes the statement

> > > > 2-21 " toxicological test results unavailable " 2-21

> > > > 2-22 (2) submit a supplement to the report that contains

> > > > 2-23 the information required by Subsections ((3) and (4)

as

> > soon as

> > > > 2-24 practicable after the toxicological test results become

> > available.

> > > > 2-25 (e) The department shall prepare and when requested

supply

> > > > 2-26 to medical examiners' offices and justices of the peace

> > the forms

> > > > 2-27 necessary to make the reports required by this section.

> > > > 3-1 SECTION 2. Subsection (j), Article 49.10, Code of Criminal

> > > > 3-2 Procedure, is amended to read as follows:

> > > > 3-3 (j) A justice of the peace shall [may] order a physician,

> > > > 3-4 qualified technician, [Previous Hit] paramedic [Next

Hit] ,

> > > > chemist, registered professional

> > > > 3-5 nurse, or licensed vocational nurse to take a specimen

of

> > blood

> > > > from

> > > > 3-6 the body of a person who died as the result of a motor

vehicle

> > > > 3-7 accident [if the justice determines that circumstances

> > indicate

> > > > 3-8 that the person may have been driving while intoxicated]

> > > > 3-9 SECTION 3. This Act takes effect September 1, 2007.

> > > >

> > >

January 5, 2007

i agree with wes. the chain of custody issues will be brought up as well as the

priority the blood draw was in the course of events of the call. and what about

the text that reads " sanitary place " ? how is that defined? how sanitary is the

back of the micu? or the back seat of a police car for that matter? (in those

cases where the patient is already in the pd vehicle when you arrive and the LEO

will not allow them to be removed from there and placed into the MICU. (it

happens)

jim davis

ExLngHrn@... wrote: Just remember one thing

in this discussion. Some of the best criminal defense lawyers in this state

specialize in DWI defense. Fully expect EVERYTHING you do on that scene to be

challenged and cross-examined by these lawyers.

For example, the JP told you to draw blood? So, you drew blood but DID NOT

perform any patient assesment? Did you even examine my client to check his

blood glucose? Did you perform a complete trauma assessment to ensure there was

no neurological injury.

I'm willing to bet you that these DWI defense experts will rapidly become

experts on EMS well before they put any of us on the stand to testify about our

blood draw.

Additionally, has anyone started thinking about chain of custody for these

cases? Who do we give the tube to? How many medics even know about chain of

custody?

-Wes Ogilvie

Re: EMS Blood Draws on Fatality Accidents

-This question may have already been covered in the previous

discussion, but here goes anyway. The bill states that the JP can

order Paramedics to draw the blood of a decease patient, but what if

your Medical Control Physician will not sign off on a protocol for

that procedure. If you draw the sample will you be practicing

medicine without a license, or if you refuse to draw the sample will

you be arrested for violating Texas law?

Mark

-- In texasems-l , Mike wrote:

>

> Contempt of court, most likely.

>

> Mike

>

> > My question is if the EMS personnel refuse to do the blood

draws,

> > what will happen? I do not see any teeth in the bill.

> >

> > Don

> >

> > ---- wegandy1938@... wrote:

> > > Mike, as I am sure you recall, this legislation was introduced

in

> > the last

> > > session and opposed by practically everybody in the EMS

> > community. It was

> > > defeated.

> > >

> > > Rep. Corte will keep on re-introducing it until it either

passes

> > or he gets

> > > defeated.

> > >

> > > I do not intend to go over the reasons for opposition to this

> > Act, because it

> > > was discussed to death on here last session.

> > >

> > > In my own personal judgment, and speaking for nobody but

myself,

> > I think it's

> > > a bad piece of legislation, one that we will regret if it

passes.

> > >

> > > I don't know what EMSAT's position on it will be this session.

> > >

> > > Gene G.

> > >

> > > >

> > > > Another interesting change in existing law is regarding

fatality

> > > > accidents where a JP makes a determination of death. In this

case,

> > > > the change is at the very end of the law, where JP's would be

> > > > REQUIRED to order paramedics, etc. to take blood from the

body

> > of the

> > > > deceased. Note that there is no rules for who does what with

the

> > > > blood AFTER that...

> > > >

> > > > Personally, I'd discuss this with your CA's and JP's to see

what

> > > > their take on this is.

> > > >

> > > > And remember, [] means that the text is redacted.

> > > >

> > > > Mike

> > > >

> > > > By: Corte H.B. No. 423

> > > >

> > > > A BILL TO BE ENTITLED

> > > > 1-1

> > > > AN ACT

> > > > 1-2 relating to requiring that medical examiners and

justices

> > of the

> > > > 1-3 peace report certain deaths that result from a motor

vehicle

> > > > 1-4 accident to the Texas Department of Public Safety.

> > > > 1-5 BE IT ENACTED BY THE LEGISLATURE OF THE STATE OF TEXAS:

> > > > 1-6 SECTION 1. Section 550.081, Transportation Code, is

amended

> > > > 1-7 to read as follows:

> > > > 1-8 Sec. 550.081. [CORONER'S] REPORT OF MEDICAL EXAMINER OR

> > > > 1-9 JUSTICE OF THE PEACE. (a) A medical examiner or justice

of the

> > > > 1-10 peace acting as coroner in a county that does not have

a

> > medical

> > > > 1-11 examiner's office or that is not part of a medical

examiner's

> > > > 1-12 district [other officer performing similar functions]

> > shall submit

> > > > 1-13 a [, not later than the 10th day of each month:

> > > > 1-14 [(1)] report in writing to the department of the

> > > > death

> > > > 1-15 of a person that was [within the officer's jurisdiction

> > during the

> > > > 1-16 preceding calendar month as] the result of a traffic

> > accident to

> > > > 1-17 which this chapter applies and that occurred within the

> > > > 1-18 jurisdiction of the medical examiner or justice of the

> > peace in

> > > > the

> > > > 1-19 preceding calendar month.

> > > > 1-20 ( The [; and

> > > > 1-21 [(2)include in the] report must be submitted before

> > > > 1-22 the 11th day of each calendar month and include:

> > > > 1-23 (1) the name of the deceased and a statement as to

> > > > 1-24 whether the deceased was:

> > > > 2-1 (A) the operator of or a passenger in a vehicle

> > > > 2-2 involved in the

> > > > accident; or

> > > > 2-3 ( a pedestrian or other nonoccupant of a

> > > > 2-4 vehicle;

> > > > 2-5 (2) the date of the accident and the name of the

> > > > county

> > > > 2-6 in which the accident occurred;

> > > > 2-7 (3) the name of any laboratory, medical examiner's

> > > > 2-8 office, or other facility that conducted toxicological

testing

> > > > 2-9 relative to the deceased; and

> > > > 2-10 (4) the results of any toxicological testing that

> > > > was

> > > > 2-11 conducted [the time, place, and circumstances of the

> > accident].

> > > > 2-13 (1) the crash records bureau of the department at

> > > > its

> > > > 2-14 headquarters in Austin; or

> > > > 2-15 (2) any other office or bureau of the department

> > > > that

> > > > 2-16 the department designates.

> > > > 2-17 (d) If toxicological test results are not available to

the

> > > > 2-18 medical examiner or justice of the peace on the date a

> > report must

> > > > 2-19 be submitted, the medical examiner or justice shall:

> > > > 2-20 (1) submit a report that includes the statement

> > > > 2-21 " toxicological test results unavailable " 2-21

> > > > 2-22 (2) submit a supplement to the report that contains

> > > > 2-23 the information required by Subsections ((3) and (4)

as

> > soon as

> > > > 2-24 practicable after the toxicological test results become

> > available.

> > > > 2-25 (e) The department shall prepare and when requested

supply

> > > > 2-26 to medical examiners' offices and justices of the peace

> > the forms

> > > > 2-27 necessary to make the reports required by this section.

> > > > 3-1 SECTION 2. Subsection (j), Article 49.10, Code of Criminal

> > > > 3-2 Procedure, is amended to read as follows:

> > > > 3-3 (j) A justice of the peace shall [may] order a physician,

> > > > 3-4 qualified technician, [Previous Hit] paramedic [Next

Hit] ,

> > > > chemist, registered professional

> > > > 3-5 nurse, or licensed vocational nurse to take a specimen

of

> > blood

> > > > from

> > > > 3-6 the body of a person who died as the result of a motor

vehicle

> > > > 3-7 accident [if the justice determines that circumstances

> > indicate

> > > > 3-8 that the person may have been driving while intoxicated]

> > > > 3-9 SECTION 3. This Act takes effect September 1, 2007.

> > > >

> > >

January 6, 2007

I think some of the people responding haven't really read the proposed act very

well:

" patient is already in the pd vehicle "

" perform a complete trauma assessment to ensure there was no neurological

injury "

" check his blood glucose "

The blood is being drawn from a who DIED as a result of the accident, so what

is the corpse doing in the back of the police vehicle, etc.?

Let's keep this on track and not wander down any blind alleys, shall we?

james davis wrote:

i agree with wes. the chain of custody issues will be brought up as

well as the priority the blood draw was in the course of events of the call. and

what about the text that reads " sanitary place " ? how is that defined? how

sanitary is the back of the micu? or the back seat of a police car for that

matter? (in those cases where the patient is already in the pd vehicle when you

arrive and the LEO will not allow them to be removed from there and placed into

the MICU. (it happens)

jim davis

ExLngHrn@... wrote: Just remember one thing in this discussion. Some of the

best criminal defense lawyers in this state specialize in DWI defense. Fully

expect EVERYTHING you do on that scene to be challenged and cross-examined by

these lawyers.

For example, the JP told you to draw blood? So, you drew blood but DID NOT

perform any patient assesment? Did you even examine my client to check his blood

glucose? Did you perform a complete trauma assessment to ensure there was no

neurological injury.

I'm willing to bet you that these DWI defense experts will rapidly become

experts on EMS well before they put any of us on the stand to testify about our

blood draw.

Additionally, has anyone started thinking about chain of custody for these

cases? Who do we give the tube to? How many medics even know about chain of

custody?

-Wes Ogilvie

Re: EMS Blood Draws on Fatality Accidents

-This question may have already been covered in the previous

discussion, but here goes anyway. The bill states that the JP can

order Paramedics to draw the blood of a decease patient, but what if

your Medical Control Physician will not sign off on a protocol for

that procedure. If you draw the sample will you be practicing

medicine without a license, or if you refuse to draw the sample will

you be arrested for violating Texas law?

Mark

-- In texasems-l , Mike wrote:

>

> Contempt of court, most likely.

>

> Mike

>

> > My question is if the EMS personnel refuse to do the blood

draws,

> > what will happen? I do not see any teeth in the bill.

> >

> > Don

> >

> > ---- wegandy1938@... wrote:

> > > Mike, as I am sure you recall, this legislation was introduced

in

> > the last

> > > session and opposed by practically everybody in the EMS

> > community. It was

> > > defeated.

> > >

> > > Rep. Corte will keep on re-introducing it until it either

passes

> > or he gets

> > > defeated.

> > >

> > > I do not intend to go over the reasons for opposition to this

> > Act, because it

> > > was discussed to death on here last session.

> > >

> > > In my own personal judgment, and speaking for nobody but

myself,

> > I think it's

> > > a bad piece of legislation, one that we will regret if it

passes.

> > >

> > > I don't know what EMSAT's position on it will be this session.

> > >

> > > Gene G.

> > >

> > > >

> > > > Another interesting change in existing law is regarding

fatality

> > > > accidents where a JP makes a determination of death. In this

case,

> > > > the change is at the very end of the law, where JP's would be

> > > > REQUIRED to order paramedics, etc. to take blood from the

body

> > of the

> > > > deceased. Note that there is no rules for who does what with

the

> > > > blood AFTER that...

> > > >

> > > > Personally, I'd discuss this with your CA's and JP's to see

what

> > > > their take on this is.

> > > >

> > > > And remember, [] means that the text is redacted.

> > > >

> > > > Mike

> > > >

> > > > By: Corte H.B. No. 423

> > > >

> > > > A BILL TO BE ENTITLED

> > > > 1-1

> > > > AN ACT

> > > > 1-2 relating to requiring that medical examiners and

justices

> > of the

> > > > 1-3 peace report certain deaths that result from a motor

vehicle

> > > > 1-4 accident to the Texas Department of Public Safety.

> > > > 1-5 BE IT ENACTED BY THE LEGISLATURE OF THE STATE OF TEXAS:

> > > > 1-6 SECTION 1. Section 550.081, Transportation Code, is

amended

> > > > 1-7 to read as follows:

> > > > 1-8 Sec. 550.081. [CORONER'S] REPORT OF MEDICAL EXAMINER OR

> > > > 1-9 JUSTICE OF THE PEACE. (a) A medical examiner or justice

of the

> > > > 1-10 peace acting as coroner in a county that does not have

a

> > medical

> > > > 1-11 examiner's office or that is not part of a medical

examiner's

> > > > 1-12 district [other officer performing similar functions]

> > shall submit

> > > > 1-13 a [, not later than the 10th day of each month:

> > > > 1-14 [(1)] report in writing to the department of the

> > > > death

> > > > 1-15 of a person that was [within the officer's jurisdiction

> > during the

> > > > 1-16 preceding calendar month as] the result of a traffic

> > accident to

> > > > 1-17 which this chapter applies and that occurred within the

> > > > 1-18 jurisdiction of the medical examiner or justice of the

> > peace in

> > > > the

> > > > 1-19 preceding calendar month.

> > > > 1-20 ( The [; and

> > > > 1-21 [(2)include in the] report must be submitted before

> > > > 1-22 the 11th day of each calendar month and include:

> > > > 1-23 (1) the name of the deceased and a statement as to

> > > > 1-24 whether the deceased was:

> > > > 2-1 (A) the operator of or a passenger in a vehicle

> > > > 2-2 involved in the

> > > > accident; or

> > > > 2-3 ( a pedestrian or other nonoccupant of a

> > > > 2-4 vehicle;

> > > > 2-5 (2) the date of the accident and the name of the

> > > > county

> > > > 2-6 in which the accident occurred;

> > > > 2-7 (3) the name of any laboratory, medical examiner's

> > > > 2-8 office, or other facility that conducted toxicological

testing

> > > > 2-9 relative to the deceased; and

> > > > 2-10 (4) the results of any toxicological testing that

> > > > was

> > > > 2-11 conducted [the time, place, and circumstances of the

> > accident].

> > > > 2-13 (1) the crash records bureau of the department at

> > > > its

> > > > 2-14 headquarters in Austin; or

> > > > 2-15 (2) any other office or bureau of the department

> > > > that

> > > > 2-16 the department designates.

> > > > 2-17 (d) If toxicological test results are not available to

the

> > > > 2-18 medical examiner or justice of the peace on the date a

> > report must

> > > > 2-19 be submitted, the medical examiner or justice shall:

> > > > 2-20 (1) submit a report that includes the statement

> > > > 2-21 " toxicological test results unavailable " 2-21

> > > > 2-22 (2) submit a supplement to the report that contains

> > > > 2-23 the information required by Subsections ((3) and (4)

as

> > soon as

> > > > 2-24 practicable after the toxicological test results become

> > available.

> > > > 2-25 (e) The department shall prepare and when requested

supply

> > > > 2-26 to medical examiners' offices and justices of the peace

> > the forms

> > > > 2-27 necessary to make the reports required by this section.

> > > > 3-1 SECTION 2. Subsection (j), Article 49.10, Code of Criminal

> > > > 3-2 Procedure, is amended to read as follows:

> > > > 3-3 (j) A justice of the peace shall [may] order a physician,

> > > > 3-4 qualified technician, [Previous Hit] paramedic [Next

Hit] ,

> > > > chemist, registered professional

> > > > 3-5 nurse, or licensed vocational nurse to take a specimen

of

> > blood

> > > > from

> > > > 3-6 the body of a person who died as the result of a motor

vehicle

> > > > 3-7 accident [if the justice determines that circumstances

> > indicate

> > > > 3-8 that the person may have been driving while intoxicated]

> > > > 3-9 SECTION 3. This Act takes effect September 1, 2007.

> > > >

> > >

January 6, 2007

whoops. i'll claim #1 i maybe got confused between the dwi blood draws on the

alleged dwi perpertrator and the dwi blood draw on the dead guy.

jim davis

STEVE BOWMAN wrote: I

think some of the people responding haven't really read the proposed act very

well:

" patient is already in the pd vehicle "

" perform a complete trauma assessment to ensure there was no neurological

injury "

" check his blood glucose "

The blood is being drawn from a who DIED as a result of the accident, so what

is the corpse doing in the back of the police vehicle, etc.?

Let's keep this on track and not wander down any blind alleys, shall we?

james davis wrote:

i agree with wes. the chain of custody issues will be brought up as

well as the priority the blood draw was in the course of events of the call. and

what about the text that reads " sanitary place " ? how is that defined? how

sanitary is the back of the micu? or the back seat of a police car for that

matter? (in those cases where the patient is already in the pd vehicle when you

arrive and the LEO will not allow them to be removed from there and placed into

the MICU. (it happens)

jim davis

ExLngHrn@... wrote: Just remember one thing in this discussion. Some of the

best criminal defense lawyers in this state specialize in DWI defense. Fully

expect EVERYTHING you do on that scene to be challenged and cross-examined by

these lawyers.

For example, the JP told you to draw blood? So, you drew blood but DID NOT

perform any patient assesment? Did you even examine my client to check his blood

glucose? Did you perform a complete trauma assessment to ensure there was no

neurological injury.

I'm willing to bet you that these DWI defense experts will rapidly become

experts on EMS well before they put any of us on the stand to testify about our

blood draw.

Additionally, has anyone started thinking about chain of custody for these

cases? Who do we give the tube to? How many medics even know about chain of

custody?

-Wes Ogilvie

Re: EMS Blood Draws on Fatality Accidents

-This question may have already been covered in the previous

discussion, but here goes anyway. The bill states that the JP can

order Paramedics to draw the blood of a decease patient, but what if

your Medical Control Physician will not sign off on a protocol for

that procedure. If you draw the sample will you be practicing

medicine without a license, or if you refuse to draw the sample will

you be arrested for violating Texas law?

Mark

-- In texasems-l , Mike wrote:

>

> Contempt of court, most likely.

>

> Mike

>

> > My question is if the EMS personnel refuse to do the blood

draws,

> > what will happen? I do not see any teeth in the bill.

> >

> > Don

> >

> > ---- wegandy1938@... wrote:

> > > Mike, as I am sure you recall, this legislation was introduced

in

> > the last

> > > session and opposed by practically everybody in the EMS

> > community. It was

> > > defeated.

> > >

> > > Rep. Corte will keep on re-introducing it until it either

passes

> > or he gets

> > > defeated.

> > >

> > > I do not intend to go over the reasons for opposition to this

> > Act, because it

> > > was discussed to death on here last session.

> > >

> > > In my own personal judgment, and speaking for nobody but

myself,

> > I think it's

> > > a bad piece of legislation, one that we will regret if it

passes.

> > >

> > > I don't know what EMSAT's position on it will be this session.

> > >

> > > Gene G.

> > >

> > > >

> > > > Another interesting change in existing law is regarding

fatality

> > > > accidents where a JP makes a determination of death. In this

case,

> > > > the change is at the very end of the law, where JP's would be

> > > > REQUIRED to order paramedics, etc. to take blood from the

body

> > of the

> > > > deceased. Note that there is no rules for who does what with

the

> > > > blood AFTER that...

> > > >

> > > > Personally, I'd discuss this with your CA's and JP's to see

what

> > > > their take on this is.

> > > >

> > > > And remember, [] means that the text is redacted.

> > > >

> > > > Mike

> > > >

> > > > By: Corte H.B. No. 423

> > > >

> > > > A BILL TO BE ENTITLED

> > > > 1-1

> > > > AN ACT

> > > > 1-2 relating to requiring that medical examiners and

justices

> > of the

> > > > 1-3 peace report certain deaths that result from a motor

vehicle

> > > > 1-4 accident to the Texas Department of Public Safety.

> > > > 1-5 BE IT ENACTED BY THE LEGISLATURE OF THE STATE OF TEXAS:

> > > > 1-6 SECTION 1. Section 550.081, Transportation Code, is

amended

> > > > 1-7 to read as follows:

> > > > 1-8 Sec. 550.081. [CORONER'S] REPORT OF MEDICAL EXAMINER OR

> > > > 1-9 JUSTICE OF THE PEACE. (a) A medical examiner or justice

of the

> > > > 1-10 peace acting as coroner in a county that does not have

a

> > medical

> > > > 1-11 examiner's office or that is not part of a medical

examiner's

> > > > 1-12 district [other officer performing similar functions]

> > shall submit

> > > > 1-13 a [, not later than the 10th day of each month:

> > > > 1-14 [(1)] report in writing to the department of the

> > > > death

> > > > 1-15 of a person that was [within the officer's jurisdiction

> > during the

> > > > 1-16 preceding calendar month as] the result of a traffic

> > accident to

> > > > 1-17 which this chapter applies and that occurred within the

> > > > 1-18 jurisdiction of the medical examiner or justice of the

> > peace in

> > > > the

> > > > 1-19 preceding calendar month.

> > > > 1-20 ( The [; and

> > > > 1-21 [(2)include in the] report must be submitted before

> > > > 1-22 the 11th day of each calendar month and include:

> > > > 1-23 (1) the name of the deceased and a statement as to

> > > > 1-24 whether the deceased was:

> > > > 2-1 (A) the operator of or a passenger in a vehicle

> > > > 2-2 involved in the

> > > > accident; or

> > > > 2-3 ( a pedestrian or other nonoccupant of a

> > > > 2-4 vehicle;

> > > > 2-5 (2) the date of the accident and the name of the

> > > > county

> > > > 2-6 in which the accident occurred;

> > > > 2-7 (3) the name of any laboratory, medical examiner's

> > > > 2-8 office, or other facility that conducted toxicological

testing

> > > > 2-9 relative to the deceased; and

> > > > 2-10 (4) the results of any toxicological testing that

> > > > was

> > > > 2-11 conducted [the time, place, and circumstances of the

> > accident].

> > > > 2-13 (1) the crash records bureau of the department at

> > > > its

> > > > 2-14 headquarters in Austin; or

> > > > 2-15 (2) any other office or bureau of the department

> > > > that

> > > > 2-16 the department designates.

> > > > 2-17 (d) If toxicological test results are not available to

the

> > > > 2-18 medical examiner or justice of the peace on the date a

> > report must

> > > > 2-19 be submitted, the medical examiner or justice shall:

> > > > 2-20 (1) submit a report that includes the statement

> > > > 2-21 " toxicological test results unavailable " 2-21

> > > > 2-22 (2) submit a supplement to the report that contains

> > > > 2-23 the information required by Subsections ((3) and (4)

as

> > soon as

> > > > 2-24 practicable after the toxicological test results become

> > available.

> > > > 2-25 (e) The department shall prepare and when requested

supply

> > > > 2-26 to medical examiners' offices and justices of the peace

> > the forms

> > > > 2-27 necessary to make the reports required by this section.

> > > > 3-1 SECTION 2. Subsection (j), Article 49.10, Code of Criminal

> > > > 3-2 Procedure, is amended to read as follows:

> > > > 3-3 (j) A justice of the peace shall [may] order a physician,

> > > > 3-4 qualified technician, [Previous Hit] paramedic [Next

Hit] ,

> > > > chemist, registered professional

> > > > 3-5 nurse, or licensed vocational nurse to take a specimen

of

> > blood

> > > > from

> > > > 3-6 the body of a person who died as the result of a motor

vehicle

> > > > 3-7 accident [if the justice determines that circumstances

> > indicate

> > > > 3-8 that the person may have been driving while intoxicated]

> > > > 3-9 SECTION 3. This Act takes effect September 1, 2007.

> > > >

> > >

January 6, 2007

Steve is right if you read all of the info it states

that the blood shall be drawn from the body of a

person who died as the result of a motor

vehicle accident. please read relavant info below.

3-1 SECTION 2. Subsection (j), Article 49.10, Code of

Criminal

> > > > 3-2 Procedure, is amended to read as follows:

> > > > 3-3 (j) A justice of the peace shall [may]

order a physician,

> > > > 3-4 qualified technician, [Previous Hit]

paramedic [Next

Hit] ,

> > > > chemist, registered professional

> > > > 3-5 nurse, or licensed vocational nurse to

take a specimen

of

> > blood

> > > > from

> > > > 3-6 the body of a person who died as the

result of a motor

vehicle

> > > > 3-7 accident [if the justice determines that

circumstances

> > indicate

> > > > 3-8 that the person may have been driving

while intoxicated]

> > > > 3-9 SECTION 3. This Act takes effect September

1, 2007.

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__________________________________________________

January 9, 2007

I believe we are talking about two different bills. Yes, one of then requires

the JP to get a blood draw on a dead person but HB 259 (below) makes no such

distinction.

A BILL TO BE ENTITLED

AN ACT

relating to the persons authorized to draw a blood specimen from a vehicle

operator to test for alcohol concentration or other intoxicating substances.

BE IT ENACTED BY THE LEGISLATURE OF THE STATE OF TEXAS:

SECTION 1. Section 724.017, Transportation Code, is amended to read as

follows:

Sec. 724.017. TAKING OF BLOOD SPECIMEN. (a) Only the following [a

physician, qualified technician, chemist, registered professional nurse, or

licensed vocational nurse] may take a blood specimen at the request or order of

a peace officer under this chapter:

(1) a physician;

(2) a qualified technician;

(3) a chemist;

(4) a registered professional nurse;

(5) a licensed vocational nurse; or

(6) a licensed or certified emergency medical technician-paramedic or a

licensed paramedic, except that a peace officer may not request or order a

technician-paramedic or paramedic to:

(A) travel to a location solely to take a blood specimen; or

( take a blood specimen when the technician-paramedic or paramedic

reasonably believes that complying with the request or order would interfere

with the treatment or transportation of a patient.

( A [The] blood specimen must be taken according to recognized medical

procedures [in a sanitary place]. [(] The person who takes a [the] blood

specimen under this chapter, or the facility [hospital] where a [the] blood

specimen is taken, is not liable for damages arising from the request or order

of the peace officer to take the blood specimen as provided by this chapter if

the blood specimen was taken according to recognized medical procedures. This

subsection does not relieve a person from liability for negligence in the taking

of a blood specimen.

medical services personnel.]

SECTION 2. This Act takes effect immediately if it receives a vote of

two-thirds of all the members elected to each house, as provided by Section 39,

Article III, Texas Constitution. If this Act does not receive the vote

necessary for immediate effect, this Act takes effect September 1, 2007.

Ben Ballard wrote:

Steve is right if you read all of the info it states

that the blood shall be drawn from the body of a

person who died as the result of a motor

vehicle accident. please read relavant info below.

__________________________________________________

January 9, 2007

I propose the following scenarios, and you can figure out which of the

pending proposed statute(s) they relate to:

Number One: You are at the scene of a fatal accident and you have

determined not to attempt resuscitation of one patient who is dead from blunt

trauma.

A Texas State Trooper orders you to draw blood from your patient, who was the

driver of the other vehicle and who has minor injuries. You refuse, because

your service's medical director has not authorized you to draw blood for law

enforcement and because your service's policies and procedures say that all

specimens drawn must be relative to patient care and will be transported to the

hospital where they will be turned over to the attending physician. The

Trooper offers you his blood-draw kit, but you decline to use it because it has

not been within your control, you have no idea whether or not it is contaminated

or not, and because you are unable to accept a medical order from anyone

except your medical director or her designee.

The Trooper arrests you for " failure to obey a lawful order of a law

enforcement officer. "

Number Two: A Justice of the Peace arrives on scene and orders you to draw

blood both from the deceased and from your patient and to turn the samples

over to the Trooper. You refuse for the same reasons set forth above. The

Justice of the Peace orders the Trooper to take you into custody for contempt of

court. The trooper arrests you, handcuffs you, and places you into the back

seat of his car. Your partner, a basic EMT, runs over to your location and

tells the Trooper and you that something is wrong with the patient in the

ambulance. He is not breathing. The Trooper refuses to release you from

custody, and the patient dies from a tension pneumothorax.

You are sued for malpractice by the survivors of the patient who died from

the pneumothorax. You sue the State of Texas and the Trooper and the Justice

of the Peace for violation of your civil rights, as a 3rd party defendant in

the suit against you, alleging that the reason that you were unable to save the

patient was because of their interference. The survivors also file a 1983

lawsuit in federal court against The State of Texas, the Department of Public

Safety, the Justice of the Peace, and you and your employer, alleging a

systematic and legislatively sanctioned violation of the civil rights of their

decedent.

What happens with the Class C misdemeanor filed against you by the trooper?

What offense have you committed. Is there such an offense as " failure to

obey the lawyful order of a law enforcement officer? " What if you plead not

guilty but the same JP finds you guilty? What are your remedies?

What happens with the survivors' suits against you, your company, the State,

the DPS, and the JP?

Who pays for the defense of these cases? Assume that you work for a private

service under contract to the county for EMS service. Will your employer's

malpractice insurance defend this suit? If you have an individual policy

with HPSO, will it defend you?

The survivors file a complaint against you and your partner with DSHS. What

will its position be on this case?

The Attorney General of The State of Texas files a complaint against your

medical director with the State Medical Board for refusing to authorize you to

draw blood under the statutes. Will the medical director's malpractice

insurance defend her against this complaint? What position will the Texas

Medical

Board take on this subject?

Please address each issue in depth and justify your positions.

Gene Gandy.

>

> I believe we are talking about two different bills. Yes, one of then

> requires the JP to get a blood draw on a dead person but HB 259 (below) makes

no

> such distinction.

>

> A BILL TO BE ENTITLED

> AN ACT

> relating to the persons authorized to draw a blood specimen from a vehicle

> operator to test for alcohol concentration or other intoxicating substances.

> BE IT ENACTED BY THE LEGISLATURE OF THE STATE OF TEXAS:

> SECTION 1. Section 724.017, Transportation Code, is amended to read as

> follows:

> Sec. 724.017. TAKING OF BLOOD SPECIMEN. (a) Only the following [a physician,

> qualified technician, chemist, registered professional nurse, or licensed

> vocational nurse] may take a blood specimen at the request or order of a peace

> officer under this chapter:

> (1) a physician;

> (2) a qualified technician;

> (3) a chemist;

> (4) a registered professional nurse;

> (5) a licensed vocational nurse; or

> (6) a licensed or certified emergency medical technician-paramedi (6) a

> licensed or certified emergency medical technician-paramedic or a

licensed

> paramedic, (6) a licensed

> (A) travel to a location solely to take a blood specimen; or

> ( take a blood specimen when the technician-paramedi ( take a blood

> specimen when the technician-paramedic or paramedic reasonably believes

that

> complying with the request or order wou

> ( A [The] blood specimen must be taken according to recognized medical

> procedures [in a sanitary place]. [(] The person who takes a [the] blood

> specimen under this chapter, or the facility [hospital] where a [the] blood

> specimen is taken, is not liable for damages arising from the request or order

of

> the peace officer to take the blood specimen as provided by this chapter if

> the blood specimen was taken according to recognized medical procedures. This

> subsection does not relieve a person from liability for negligence in the

> taking of a blood specimen.

> medical services personnel.]

> SECTION 2. This Act takes effect immediately if it receives a vote of

> two-thirds of all the members elected to each house, as provided by Section

39,

> Article III, Texas Constitution. If this Act does not receive the vote

necessary

> for immediate effect, this Act takes effect September 1, 2007.

>

> Ben Ballard wrote:

>

> Steve is right if you read all of the info it states

> that the blood shall be drawn from the body of a

> person who died as the result of a motor

> vehicle accident. please read relavant info below.

>

> ____________ ________ ________ ________ ________ _

>

January 9, 2007

Thanks. I'll put that in the rewrite.

G

>

> You left out the part about a meteor falling on the cop and the JP falling

> off a cliff....and their families suing you too. If you're going to write the

> next star trek screen play....make it juicy man.

>

> ------------ -------- -----

> Sent from my BlackBerry Wireless Handheld

>

> Re: Re: EMS Blood Draws on Fatality ACcidents

>

> I propose the following scenarios, and you can figure out which of the

> pending proposed statute(s) they relate to:

>

> Number One: You are at the scene of a fatal accident and you have

> determined not to attempt resuscitation of one patient who is dead from

> blunt trauma.

> A Texas State Trooper orders you to draw blood from your patient, who was

> the

> driver of the other vehicle and who has minor injuries. You refuse, because

> your service's medical director has not authorized you to draw blood for law

> enforcement and because your service's policies and procedures say that all

> specimens drawn must be relative to patient care and will be transported to

> the

> hospital where they will be turned over to the attending physician. The

> Trooper offers you his blood-draw kit, but you decline to use it because it

> has

> not been within your control, you have no idea whether or not it is

> contaminated

> or not, and because you are unable to accept a medical order from anyone

> except your medical director or her designee.

>

> The Trooper arrests you for " failure to obey a lawful order of a law

> enforcement officer. "

>

> Number Two: A Justice of the Peace arrives on scene and orders you to draw

> blood both from the deceased and from your patient and to turn the samples

> over to the Trooper. You refuse for the same reasons set forth above. The

> Justice of the Peace orders the Trooper to take you into custody for

> contempt of

> court. The trooper arrests you, handcuffs you, and places you into the back

> seat of his car. Your partner, a basic EMT, runs over to your location and

> tells the Trooper and you that something is wrong with the patient in the

> ambulance. He is not breathing. The Trooper refuses to release you from

> custody, and the patient dies from a tension pneumothorax.

>

> You are sued for malpractice by the survivors of the patient who died from

> the pneumothorax. You sue the State of Texas and the Trooper and the Justice

> of the Peace for violation of your civil rights, as a 3rd party defendant in

> the suit against you, alleging that the reason that you were unable to save

> the

> patient was because of their interference. The survivors also file a 1983

> lawsuit in federal court against The State of Texas, the Department of

> Public

> Safety, the Justice of the Peace, and you and your employer, alleging a

> systematic and legislatively sanctioned violation of the civil rights of

> their

> decedent.

>

> What happens with the Class C misdemeanor filed against you by the trooper?

> What offense have you committed. Is there such an offense as " failure to

> obey the lawyful order of a law enforcement officer? " What if you plead not

> guilty but the same JP finds you guilty? What are your remedies?

>

> What happens with the survivors' suits against you, your company, the State,

> the DPS, and the JP?

>

> Who pays for the defense of these cases? Assume that you work for a private

> service under contract to the county for EMS service. Will your employer's

> malpractice insurance defend this suit? If you have an individual policy

> with HPSO, will it defend you?

>

> The survivors file a complaint against you and your partner with DSHS. What

> will its position be on this case?

>

> The Attorney General of The State of Texas files a complaint against your

> medical director with the State Medical Board for refusing to authorize you

> to

> draw blood under the statutes. Will the medical director's malpractice

> insurance defend her against this complaint? What position will the Texas

> Medical

> Board take on this subject?

>

> Please address each issue in depth and justify your positions.

>

> Gene Gandy.

>

> In a message dated 1/9/07 2:05:53 PM, spiband@... <

> mailto:spiband%mailto:spib> writes:

>

> >

> > I believe we are talking about two different bills. Yes, one of then

> > requires the JP to get a blood draw on a dead person but HB 259 (below)

> makes no

> > such distinction.

> >

> > A BILL TO BE ENTITLED

> > AN ACT

> > relating to the persons authorized to draw a blood specimen from a vehicle

> > operator to test for alcohol concentration or other intoxicating

> substances.

> > BE IT ENACTED BY THE LEGISLATURE OF THE STATE OF TEXAS:

> > SECTION 1. Section 724.017, Transportation Code, is amended to read as

> > follows:

> > Sec. 724.017. TAKING OF BLOOD SPECIMEN. (a) Only the following [a

> physician,

> > qualified technician, chemist, registered professional nurse, or licensed

> > vocational nurse] may take a blood specimen at the request or order of a

> peace

> > officer under this chapter:

> > (1) a physician;

> > (2) a qualified technician;

> > (3) a chemist;

> > (4) a registered professional nurse;

> > (5) a licensed vocational nurse; or

> > (6) a licensed or certified emergency medical technician-paramedi (6) a

> > licensed or certified emergency medical technician-paramedic or a

> licensed

> > paramedic, (6) a licensed

> > (A) travel to a location solely to take a blood specimen; or

> > ( take a blood specimen when the technician-paramedi ( take a blood

> > specimen when the technician-paramedic or paramedic reasonably

> believes that

> > complying with the request or order wou

> > ( A [The] blood specimen must be taken according to recognized medical

> > procedures [in a sanitary place]. [(] The person who takes a [the] blood

> > specimen under this chapter, or the facility [hospital] where a [the]

> blood

> > specimen is taken, is not liable for damages arising from the request or

> order of

> > the peace officer to take the blood specimen as provided by this chapter

> if

> > the blood specimen was taken according to recognized medical procedures.

> This

> > subsection does not relieve a person from liability for negligence in the

> > taking of a blood specimen.

> > medical services personnel.]

> > SECTION 2. This Act takes effect immediately if it receives a vote of

> > two-thirds of all the members elected to each house, as provided by

> Section 39,

> > Article III, Texas Constitution. If this Act does not receive the vote

> necessary

> > for immediate effect, this Act takes effect September 1, 2007.

> >

> > Ben Ballard <emtdragon1@... <mailto:emtdragon1%mailto:emtd> > wrote:

> >

> > Steve is right if you read all of the info it states

> > that the blood shall be drawn from the body of a

> > person who died as the result of a motor

> > vehicle accident. please read relavant info below.

> >

> > ____________ ________ ________ ________ ________ _

> >

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EMS Blood Draws on Fatality Accidents

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