Re: Texas teen fighting efforts by police to remove bullet from head

[Guest guest]

Lessons learned-

1) Either carry a .45 or a .40.

2) Aim for center of mass

If either had been done, the subject would have been rendered moot.

Mike wrote:

(From the article)

Texas teen fighting efforts by police to remove bullet from head

Prosecutors say slug is evidence that he tried to shoot businessman

after robbery.

" " ...I just can't believe I missed him at that distance, " Olive, a

competitive pistol shooter, said in court papers. Olive told

authorities he never saw the man's face in the dark alley.

Bush is in jail on charges related to the robbery but not the shooting.

His mother, Tammie Bush, disputed allegations that her son is in a gang.

" We know he's not a criminal, " she said. " He's a good kid. " ... "

.

" A prudent man foresees the difficulties ahead and prepares for them; the

simpleton goes blindly on and suffers the consequences. " Proverbs 22:3

__________________________________________________

[Guest guest]

Mike, come on. There is a simple way to get the bullet. It's called an MRI,

Eddie , EMT-P

Director of Clinical Services

4100 Ed Bluestein Blvd., Suite 100

Austin, TX 78721

ext. 110

_____

From: texasems-l [mailto:texasems-l ] On

Behalf Of Mike

Sent: Friday, December 22, 2006 1:07 AM

To: TexasEMS-L; texascops ; Texas Peace Officer Discussion

List; Paramedicine ; POLICE-L: The Police Discussion List

Subject: Texas teen fighting efforts by police to remove bullet

from head

Texas teen fighting efforts by police to remove bullet from head

Prosecutors say slug is evidence that he tried to shoot businessman

after robbery.

By A. Lozano

ASSOCIATED PRESS

Friday, December 22, 2006

PORT ARTHUR - In the middle of Bush's forehead, two inches

above his eyes, lies the evidence that prosecutors say could send the

teenager to prison for attempted murder: a 9 mm bullet, lodged just

under the skin.

Prosecutors say it will prove that Bush, 17, tried to kill the owner

of a used car lot after a robbery in July. And they have obtained a

search warrant to extract the slug.

But Bush and his lawyer are fighting the removal, in a legal and

medical oddity that raises questions about patient privacy and how far

the government can go to solve crimes without running afoul of the

constitutional protection against unreasonable searches and seizures.

" It's unfortunate this arguably important piece of evidence is in a

place where it can't be easily retrieved, " said Seth Chandler, a

professor at the University of Houston Law Center. " You have to

balance our desire to convict the guilty against the government not

poking around our bodies on a supposition. "

Investigators say that Bush was part of a group of gang members who

broke into a used car lot and tried to steal vehicles. According to

police, Bush tried to shoot lot owner Alan Olive. When Olive returned

fire, police said, a bullet struck the teenager and burrowed into the

soft tissue of his forehead.

Prosecutor Ramon said gang members who took part in the

robbery identified Bush as one of those involved. When he was

questioned about a week later, Bush admitted to taking part in the

robbery but not to the shooting, police said.

" The officers noticed the guy looks like hell. One of his eyes is

black, and he has a big old knot on his forehead, " said. " He

tells police he got hurt playing basketball. "

A few days later, Bush went to the hospital and told doctors he had

been hit by a stray bullet as he sat on a couch in an apartment.

" Officers started putting events together, " said.

A judge took the unusual step of issuing a search warrant to retrieve

the bullet from Bush's head in October. But a Beaumont doctor

determined that small pieces of bone were growing around the slug, and

he did not have the proper tools in the emergency room to extract it.

The doctor said that removal would require surgery under general

anesthesia and that no operating rooms were available.

Police then obtained a second search warrant and scheduled the

operation for last week at the University of Texas Medical Branch

hospital in Galveston. It was postponed again, however, after the

hospital decided not to participate for reasons it would not discuss.

Prosecutors said they continue to look for a doctor or hospital

willing to remove the bullet.

All sides agree that removing the bullet would not be

life-threatening. But Bush's family and attorney say it would be a

violation of the teenager's civil rights and would set a dangerous

precedent.

" When the medical profession divorces itself from its own

responsibility and makes itself an arm of the state, it's a dangerous

path, " said Rife Kimler, Bush's lawyer.

Olive told police that after officers had left the scene of the

robbery and he began cleaning up, a man appeared in a nearby alley and

threatened to kill him if he helped authorities in their

investigation. The man fired at Olive, he said, and a shootout

followed.

" I just can't believe I missed him at that distance, " Olive, a

competitive pistol shooter, said in court papers. Olive told

authorities he never saw the man's face in the dark alley.

Bush is in jail on charges related to the robbery but not the shooting.

His mother, Tammie Bush, disputed allegations that her son is in a gang.

" We know he's not a criminal, " she said. " He's a good kid. "

Dr. Arthur Caplan, director of the Center for Bioethics at the

University of Pennsylvania, predicted that Bush's rights as a patient

will trump the state's desire to get the bullet and said authorities

might have a hard time finding someone willing to extract the slug.

" It truly is a moral quandary, " Caplan said. " Doctors are caught

between wanting to help solve crimes and their responsibility to

patients' rights to refuse a procedure. "

[Guest guest]

You made me spit Cheerios out my nose - quite a feat this early in the

morning! Good show, man!

Mike

>

> Mike, come on. There is a simple way to get the bullet. It's called an

> MRI,

>

> Eddie , EMT-P

>

> Director of Clinical Services

>

> 4100 Ed Bluestein Blvd., Suite 100

>

> Austin, TX 78721

>

> ext. 110

>

> _____

>

> From: texasems-l <texasems-l%40yahoogroups.com> [mailto:

> texasems-l <texasems-l%40yahoogroups.com>] On

> Behalf Of Mike

> Sent: Friday, December 22, 2006 1:07 AM

> To: TexasEMS-L; texascops <texascops%40yahoogroups.com>;

> Texas Peace Officer Discussion

> List; Paramedicine <Paramedicine%40yahoogroups.com>;

> POLICE-L: The Police Discussion List

> Subject: Texas teen fighting efforts by police to remove

> bullet

>

> from head

>

> Texas teen fighting efforts by police to remove bullet from head

> Prosecutors say slug is evidence that he tried to shoot businessman

> after robbery.

>

> By A. Lozano

> ASSOCIATED PRESS

> Friday, December 22, 2006

>

> PORT ARTHUR - In the middle of Bush's forehead, two inches

> above his eyes, lies the evidence that prosecutors say could send the

> teenager to prison for attempted murder: a 9 mm bullet, lodged just

> under the skin.

>

> Prosecutors say it will prove that Bush, 17, tried to kill the owner

> of a used car lot after a robbery in July. And they have obtained a

> search warrant to extract the slug.

>

> But Bush and his lawyer are fighting the removal, in a legal and

> medical oddity that raises questions about patient privacy and how far

> the government can go to solve crimes without running afoul of the

> constitutional protection against unreasonable searches and seizures.

>

> " It's unfortunate this arguably important piece of evidence is in a

> place where it can't be easily retrieved, " said Seth Chandler, a

> professor at the University of Houston Law Center. " You have to

> balance our desire to convict the guilty against the government not

> poking around our bodies on a supposition. "

>

> Investigators say that Bush was part of a group of gang members who

> broke into a used car lot and tried to steal vehicles. According to

> police, Bush tried to shoot lot owner Alan Olive. When Olive returned

> fire, police said, a bullet struck the teenager and burrowed into the

> soft tissue of his forehead.

>

> Prosecutor Ramon said gang members who took part in the

> robbery identified Bush as one of those involved. When he was

> questioned about a week later, Bush admitted to taking part in the

> robbery but not to the shooting, police said.

>

> " The officers noticed the guy looks like hell. One of his eyes is

> black, and he has a big old knot on his forehead, " said. " He

> tells police he got hurt playing basketball. "

>

> A few days later, Bush went to the hospital and told doctors he had

> been hit by a stray bullet as he sat on a couch in an apartment.

>

> " Officers started putting events together, " said.

>

> A judge took the unusual step of issuing a search warrant to retrieve

> the bullet from Bush's head in October. But a Beaumont doctor

> determined that small pieces of bone were growing around the slug, and

> he did not have the proper tools in the emergency room to extract it.

> The doctor said that removal would require surgery under general

> anesthesia and that no operating rooms were available.

>

> Police then obtained a second search warrant and scheduled the

> operation for last week at the University of Texas Medical Branch

> hospital in Galveston. It was postponed again, however, after the

> hospital decided not to participate for reasons it would not discuss.

>

> Prosecutors said they continue to look for a doctor or hospital

> willing to remove the bullet.

>

> All sides agree that removing the bullet would not be

> life-threatening. But Bush's family and attorney say it would be a

> violation of the teenager's civil rights and would set a dangerous

> precedent.

>

> " When the medical profession divorces itself from its own

> responsibility and makes itself an arm of the state, it's a dangerous

> path, " said Rife Kimler, Bush's lawyer.

>

> Olive told police that after officers had left the scene of the

> robbery and he began cleaning up, a man appeared in a nearby alley and

> threatened to kill him if he helped authorities in their

> investigation. The man fired at Olive, he said, and a shootout

> followed.

>

> " I just can't believe I missed him at that distance, " Olive, a

> competitive pistol shooter, said in court papers. Olive told

> authorities he never saw the man's face in the dark alley.

>

> Bush is in jail on charges related to the robbery but not the shooting.

>

> His mother, Tammie Bush, disputed allegations that her son is in a gang.

>

> " We know he's not a criminal, " she said. " He's a good kid. "

>

> Dr. Arthur Caplan, director of the Center for Bioethics at the

> University of Pennsylvania, predicted that Bush's rights as a patient

> will trump the state's desire to get the bullet and said authorities

> might have a hard time finding someone willing to extract the slug.

>

> " It truly is a moral quandary, " Caplan said. " Doctors are caught

> between wanting to help solve crimes and their responsibility to

> patients' rights to refuse a procedure. "

>

>

[Guest guest]

Finally, someone got it!

Eddie , EMT-P

Director of Clinical Services

4100 Ed Bluestein Blvd., Suite 100

Austin, TX 78721

ext. 110

_____

From: texasems-l [mailto:texasems-l ] On

Behalf Of Mike

Sent: Friday, December 22, 2006 8:38 AM

To: texasems-l

Subject: Re: Texas teen fighting efforts by police to remove

bullet from head

You made me spit Cheerios out my nose - quite a feat this early in the

morning! Good show, man!

Mike

On 12/22/06, Eddie <ewalker@metrocareem

<mailto:ewalker%40metrocareems.com> s.com> wrote:

>

> Mike, come on. There is a simple way to get the bullet. It's called an

> MRI,

>

> Eddie , EMT-P

>

> Director of Clinical Services

>

> 4100 Ed Bluestein Blvd., Suite 100

>

> Austin, TX 78721

>

> ext. 110

>

> _____

>

> From: texasems-l@yahoogro <mailto:texasems-l%40yahoogroups.com> ups.com

<texasems-l%40yahoogroups.com> [mailto:

> texasems-l@yahoogro <mailto:texasems-l%40yahoogroups.com> ups.com

<texasems-l%40yahoogroups.com>] On

> Behalf Of Mike

> Sent: Friday, December 22, 2006 1:07 AM

> To: TexasEMS-L; texascops@yahoogrou <mailto:texascops%40yahoogroups.com>

ps.com <texascops%40yahoogroups.com>;

> Texas Peace Officer Discussion

> List; Paramedicine@ <mailto:Paramedicine%40yahoogroups.com>

yahoogroups.com <Paramedicine%40yahoogroups.com>;

> POLICE-L: The Police Discussion List

> Subject: Texas teen fighting efforts by police to remove

> bullet

>

> from head

>

> Texas teen fighting efforts by police to remove bullet from head

> Prosecutors say slug is evidence that he tried to shoot businessman

> after robbery.

>

> By A. Lozano

> ASSOCIATED PRESS

> Friday, December 22, 2006

>

> PORT ARTHUR - In the middle of Bush's forehead, two inches

> above his eyes, lies the evidence that prosecutors say could send the

> teenager to prison for attempted murder: a 9 mm bullet, lodged just

> under the skin.

>

> Prosecutors say it will prove that Bush, 17, tried to kill the owner

> of a used car lot after a robbery in July. And they have obtained a

> search warrant to extract the slug.

>

> But Bush and his lawyer are fighting the removal, in a legal and

> medical oddity that raises questions about patient privacy and how far

> the government can go to solve crimes without running afoul of the

> constitutional protection against unreasonable searches and seizures.

>

> " It's unfortunate this arguably important piece of evidence is in a

> place where it can't be easily retrieved, " said Seth Chandler, a

> professor at the University of Houston Law Center. " You have to

> balance our desire to convict the guilty against the government not

> poking around our bodies on a supposition. "

>

> Investigators say that Bush was part of a group of gang members who

> broke into a used car lot and tried to steal vehicles. According to

> police, Bush tried to shoot lot owner Alan Olive. When Olive returned

> fire, police said, a bullet struck the teenager and burrowed into the

> soft tissue of his forehead.

>

> Prosecutor Ramon said gang members who took part in the

> robbery identified Bush as one of those involved. When he was

> questioned about a week later, Bush admitted to taking part in the

> robbery but not to the shooting, police said.

>

> " The officers noticed the guy looks like hell. One of his eyes is

> black, and he has a big old knot on his forehead, " said. " He

> tells police he got hurt playing basketball. "

>

> A few days later, Bush went to the hospital and told doctors he had

> been hit by a stray bullet as he sat on a couch in an apartment.

>

> " Officers started putting events together, " said.

>

> A judge took the unusual step of issuing a search warrant to retrieve

> the bullet from Bush's head in October. But a Beaumont doctor

> determined that small pieces of bone were growing around the slug, and

> he did not have the proper tools in the emergency room to extract it.

> The doctor said that removal would require surgery under general

> anesthesia and that no operating rooms were available.

>

> Police then obtained a second search warrant and scheduled the

> operation for last week at the University of Texas Medical Branch

> hospital in Galveston. It was postponed again, however, after the

> hospital decided not to participate for reasons it would not discuss.

>

> Prosecutors said they continue to look for a doctor or hospital

> willing to remove the bullet.

>

> All sides agree that removing the bullet would not be

> life-threatening. But Bush's family and attorney say it would be a

> violation of the teenager's civil rights and would set a dangerous

> precedent.

>

> " When the medical profession divorces itself from its own

> responsibility and makes itself an arm of the state, it's a dangerous

> path, " said Rife Kimler, Bush's lawyer.

>

> Olive told police that after officers had left the scene of the

> robbery and he began cleaning up, a man appeared in a nearby alley and

> threatened to kill him if he helped authorities in their

> investigation. The man fired at Olive, he said, and a shootout

> followed.

>

> " I just can't believe I missed him at that distance, " Olive, a

> competitive pistol shooter, said in court papers. Olive told

> authorities he never saw the man's face in the dark alley.

>

> Bush is in jail on charges related to the robbery but not the shooting.

>

> His mother, Tammie Bush, disputed allegations that her son is in a gang.

>

> " We know he's not a criminal, " she said. " He's a good kid. "

>

> Dr. Arthur Caplan, director of the Center for Bioethics at the

> University of Pennsylvania, predicted that Bush's rights as a patient

> will trump the state's desire to get the bullet and said authorities

> might have a hard time finding someone willing to extract the slug.

>

> " It truly is a moral quandary, " Caplan said. " Doctors are caught

> between wanting to help solve crimes and their responsibility to

> patients' rights to refuse a procedure. "

>

>

[Guest guest]

Sounds like a long drawn out legal dispute to me in regards to the

search and seizure of the alleged evidence. In the meantime, the kid

takes a " vacation " to Old Mexico, visits a " Doctor " and when he

returns, " Viola " , no more bullet. Just an ugly scar.

If The Man needs the bullet to prove the kid was present at the

shooting it sounds to me their case may be pretty thin. Me thinks they

must hesitate to put his fellow Hood Rats on the witness stand to

testify as such.

As for me, I write his name down in my little memo book and then EVERY

time I see said Wannabe Thug I stop him, have him assume the position

and make damn sure to press his little forehead against the trunk of

my patrol unit with just enough force to remind him of said bullet.

" OK, Cyclops, you're good to go. Have a nice day. See you around. "

Here's a question for all you DOs and MDs out there. Would you take

the liability of removing said bullet? Just curious what your thoughts

would be...

> To: TexasEMS-L; texascops ; Texas Peace Officer

Discussion

> List; Paramedicine ; POLICE-L: The Police Discussion List

> Subject: Texas teen fighting efforts by police to

remove bullet

> from head

>

>

>

> Texas teen fighting efforts by police to remove bullet from head

> Prosecutors say slug is evidence that he tried to shoot businessman

> after robbery.

>

> By A. Lozano

> ASSOCIATED PRESS

> Friday, December 22, 2006

>

> PORT ARTHUR - In the middle of Bush's forehead, two inches

> above his eyes, lies the evidence that prosecutors say could send the

> teenager to prison for attempted murder: a 9 mm bullet, lodged just

> under the skin.

>

> Prosecutors say it will prove that Bush, 17, tried to kill the owner

> of a used car lot after a robbery in July. And they have obtained a

> search warrant to extract the slug.

>

> But Bush and his lawyer are fighting the removal, in a legal and

> medical oddity that raises questions about patient privacy and how far

> the government can go to solve crimes without running afoul of the

> constitutional protection against unreasonable searches and seizures.

>

> " It's unfortunate this arguably important piece of evidence is in a

> place where it can't be easily retrieved, " said Seth Chandler, a

> professor at the University of Houston Law Center. " You have to

> balance our desire to convict the guilty against the government not

> poking around our bodies on a supposition. "

>

> Investigators say that Bush was part of a group of gang members who

> broke into a used car lot and tried to steal vehicles. According to

> police, Bush tried to shoot lot owner Alan Olive. When Olive returned

> fire, police said, a bullet struck the teenager and burrowed into the

> soft tissue of his forehead.

>

> Prosecutor Ramon said gang members who took part in the

> robbery identified Bush as one of those involved. When he was

> questioned about a week later, Bush admitted to taking part in the

> robbery but not to the shooting, police said.

>

> " The officers noticed the guy looks like hell. One of his eyes is

> black, and he has a big old knot on his forehead, " said. " He

> tells police he got hurt playing basketball. "

>

> A few days later, Bush went to the hospital and told doctors he had

> been hit by a stray bullet as he sat on a couch in an apartment.

>

> " Officers started putting events together, " said.

>

> A judge took the unusual step of issuing a search warrant to retrieve

> the bullet from Bush's head in October. But a Beaumont doctor

> determined that small pieces of bone were growing around the slug, and

> he did not have the proper tools in the emergency room to extract it.

> The doctor said that removal would require surgery under general

> anesthesia and that no operating rooms were available.

>

> Police then obtained a second search warrant and scheduled the

> operation for last week at the University of Texas Medical Branch

> hospital in Galveston. It was postponed again, however, after the

> hospital decided not to participate for reasons it would not discuss.

>

> Prosecutors said they continue to look for a doctor or hospital

> willing to remove the bullet.

>

> All sides agree that removing the bullet would not be

> life-threatening. But Bush's family and attorney say it would be a

> violation of the teenager's civil rights and would set a dangerous

> precedent.

>

> " When the medical profession divorces itself from its own

> responsibility and makes itself an arm of the state, it's a dangerous

> path, " said Rife Kimler, Bush's lawyer.

>

> Olive told police that after officers had left the scene of the

> robbery and he began cleaning up, a man appeared in a nearby alley and

> threatened to kill him if he helped authorities in their

> investigation. The man fired at Olive, he said, and a shootout

> followed.

>

> " I just can't believe I missed him at that distance, " Olive, a

> competitive pistol shooter, said in court papers. Olive told

> authorities he never saw the man's face in the dark alley.

>

> Bush is in jail on charges related to the robbery but not the shooting.

>

> His mother, Tammie Bush, disputed allegations that her son is in a gang.

>

> " We know he's not a criminal, " she said. " He's a good kid. "

>

> Dr. Arthur Caplan, director of the Center for Bioethics at the

> University of Pennsylvania, predicted that Bush's rights as a patient

> will trump the state's desire to get the bullet and said authorities

> might have a hard time finding someone willing to extract the slug.

>

> " It truly is a moral quandary, " Caplan said. " Doctors are caught

> between wanting to help solve crimes and their responsibility to

> patients' rights to refuse a procedure. "

>

>

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

While that ideal has merit, how many times do you think you can do that before

they screech about " harassment " ?

reeveo wrote: " ...As for me, I write his name

down in my little memo book and then EVERY

time I see said Wannabe Thug I stop him, have him assume the position

and make damn sure to press his little forehead against the trunk of

my patrol unit with just enough force to remind him of said bullet.

" OK, Cyclops, you're good to go. Have a nice day. See you around. " ... "

.

" A prudent man foresees the difficulties ahead and prepares for them; the

simpleton goes blindly on and suffers the consequences. " Proverbs 22:3

__________________________________________________

[Guest guest]

>

> Sounds like a long drawn out legal dispute to me in regards to the

> search and seizure of the alleged evidence. In the meantime, the kid

> takes a " vacation " to Old Mexico, visits a " Doctor " and when he

> returns, " Viola " , no more bullet. Just an ugly scar.

And then faces felony charges for tampering with evidence.

Seriously, the step of GETTING the warrant is easy - it's a simple

evidentiary search warrant. The problem becomes the seizure of the

person and subjecting him to surgery to get the bullet out. I have

trouble believing that bone growth was inhibiting removal in under a

week... sounds like it was embedded further than they thought. Should

have just scared the kid with talk of " lead poisoning " and the lead

leaching into his system... made his mom consent for him (yeah, yeah,

I know, that's not truly informed consent... and I'm not really

serious, so there).

> If The Man needs the bullet to prove the kid was present at the

> shooting it sounds to me their case may be pretty thin. Me thinks they

> must hesitate to put his fellow Hood Rats on the witness stand to

> testify as such.

Read the story. The victim fired at the assailants, who ran away, in

the dark. They need the bullet to match to the victim's firearm to

place the kid at the scene as the assailant.

> As for me, I write his name down in my little memo book and then EVERY

> time I see said Wannabe Thug I stop him, have him assume the position

> and make damn sure to press his little forehead against the trunk of

> my patrol unit with just enough force to remind him of said bullet.

> " OK, Cyclops, you're good to go. Have a nice day. See you around. "

And since you're documenting your stops or capturing them on video

like the law requires, you build his civil rights violation case for

him. Congratulations.

> Here's a question for all you DOs and MDs out there. Would you take

> the liability of removing said bullet? Just curious what your thoughts

> would be...

In all seriousness, what liability? The court is liable for the

removal, the physician is only liable for doing it right. Same as a

DWI blood draw against the driver's consent (which is very, very

common - my county routinely obtains blood search warrants from an

on-call judge for felony DWI cases, at which point we head to the

hospital to obtain the blood sample).

Mike