Foul Balls, EMT's and no ambulances

September 17, 2006

Not necessarily. Adequate is adequate. Doesn't matter what " form " it's

on. It's substance that counts. So if you cover all the bases, it's fine.

G

September 17, 2006

I know of a case where the hospital settled and the paramedic lost his

certification. In my mind, it was far from clear that the medic was at fault.

I

was not involved with the case, but in my mind there were serious questions

about the claim. Yet the hospital threw the medic to the wolves.

Had the medic had the resources to hire a good attorney, the outcome might

have been different.

GG

September 17, 2006

In a message dated 9/17/2006 1:18:21 PM Central Standard Time,

petsardlj@... writes:

I have yet to see a settlement when there is no wrong doing.

Well you can bet they happen. I have seen cities give meaningless amounts

($500-$5,000) to avoid going to court in a county known for its ridiculous

jury awards, even when there was no doubt that the Police or EMS or the Parks

and Recreation people (at least 5or 6 times a week, people drive by where they

are mowing and claim their windshield got a rock when there is a cover over

the mower and the crack looks 3 months old). So it does happen. Usually in

the urban or suburban sections of a large town.

September 17, 2006

So you are stating that a narriative on the refusal form would not be sufficient

to satisfy these open areas?

A area on the refusal form asking specific questions about mental capacity and

understanding.

A area on the refusal form for documentation of treatment rendered or denied.

A area on the refusal form explaining that the patient " Or a minor under the

age of 18 in the custody or care " of the person signing is refusing treatment

after being explained that the refusal could result in further injury or death.

These are still not adequate?

wegandy1938@... wrote:

On the subject of signed refusals. Most of them are not worth the

paper

they're written on. Why?

Because they do not show " informed refusal, " present mental capacity to form

a judgment about one's medical condition and care, and that the patient

understood his condition and the risks of refusal.

At least these things must be documented:

1. That the patient was informed of the possible medical consequences of

refusal and what specific things were told the patient.

2. That the patient had the present mental capacity to make an informed

decision about her medical status and to formulate the decision to refuse and

the

facts upon which those statements are based.

3. That the patient heard and understood the information given and the

facts supporting that.

4. That the patient refused treatment and transport after being so

informed.

The problem with most refusal forms is that they contain only conclusions or

statements not supported by fact.

For example, " the patient was informed of the possible consequences of

refusal. " That's fine, but it doesn't show what specifically the patient was

informed of. To see what an informed consent or refusal should contain, refer to

the ones used in the hospital. There are a specific set of things that the

patient needs to be told. If you don't give them specifics, they can always

say " they didn't tell me that I could be bleeding from the back of my nose and

bleed enough to go into shock. " So real information must be given and what

was told the patient must be documented.

The usual form does nothing to show that the patient had present mental

capacity to understand and refuse. The documentation on the patient care form

that the patient was " A & A & OX$ " is pure conclusion. What facts support the

conclusion that the patient was awake, alert and oriented? It may be as obvious

as that the patient responded as follows when asked his name, where he is, what

day, month, and year, it is, and what happened: " My name is Julius Caesar,

I'm in my palace in Rome, it's Dies saturni, xvi September MMVI, and I

tripped on my way to the vomitorium and broke my pinkie finger. " That's

verifiable information and, if true, supports the conclusions.

Let's take the term " awake. " We're fond of writing that the patient was

awake. What does that mean? How many of you can give the dictionary

definition of awake? According to my Merriam Webster's the adjective " awake "

means

" fully conscious, alert, and aware. "

How do we know that the patient is " fully conscious? " That his eyes are

open? The lawyer will say, " Mr. Paramedic, have you ever seen a dead person

whose eyes were open? " " Then, you would have to agree, would you not, that the

mere fact that a person's eyes are open doesn't mean that they're necessarily

awake? "

You say, " patient was fully conscious. Define for the judge and the jury

what you mean by the word 'conscious. " Taber's Medical Dictionary defines

" conscious " as " Being aware and having perception; awake. "

Since there can be altered states of consciousness, there should be a list

of questions related to LOC for the medic to answer such as, " Is there any

evidence that the patient is under the influence of alcohol or drugs? " Is there

any evidence of a mental disorder? " " Is there any evidence of shock? " " Is

there evidence of any kind of undue influence on the patient to refuse? " " Is

the patient an adult. " " If patient is a minor, is he legally emancipated,

married, or in the military service? " " Can the patient remember three objects,

a pair of glasses, a cup, and a book, for three minutes? " And so forth.

Patients with certain injuries and medical conditions typically have a loss of

short term memory. You don't want a patient coming back and saying that he

didn't remember even signing the refusal, much less saying all the things he was

quoted as saying. So a patient with impaired lacks capacity to refuse.

Just read the definition of " consciousness " in Taber's and you'll see what I

mean. Consider this passage: " Clouding of consciousness may simulate the

dullness but usually not the other characteristics of stupor. On the

contrary, such patients may seem alert. "

So the answer is to document what the patient says, so that the jury, if it

comes to that, can see for themselves the same information that you were acting

upon when you said the patient was " awake and alert. "

The statement that " patient stated that he understands the risks " won't stand

up either. How do we know he understands it? I can say that I understand

the theory of relativity, but it doesn't mean that I do. Most patient, when

asked, " Do you understand the possible consequences? " will say yes, because

it's natural to not want to be thought to be a fool. So they'll say they

understand when they don't. The way to do it is to ask them to repeat to you

what

they believe their present condition is and what they understand the risks of

refusal to be. And you write down what they say in quotes.

And finally you must document that they said, after the aforesaid, " I

understand what I have just told you and I still refuse treatment and transport.

I

will call EMS if I change my mind or if I get worse, " or words to that effect.

This information cannot be written on the forms that are provided by most

services. People always whine about having to fill in lots of forms, but

believe me, an extra three minutes spent doing proper documentation is far

better

than a 6 hour deposition.

It is possible to make up refusal forms that contain lots of this information

so that there is a minimum of writing. For example, it can contain the

questions to be asked, and all you have to do is record the patient's answers.

Unfortunately, most services have not given this much thought and it never

comes up until a lawsuit happens.

I recently worked on a case where the medics did very careful and correct

documentation, and that resulted in the case being dismissed at the pretrial

stage. So good documentation does pay off.

Gene G.

September 17, 2006

The effect of going after your certification is a possibility if you were

negligent in caring for the patient.

I too believe in malpractice insurance for employees as well as the employer.

The ability to file a lawsuit is very prevalent in our profession and too must

our knowledge of protocol, medical and truamatic illness, and our ability to

communicate well with the people and patients we come into contact with when we

are doing our job.

I refer again to the predators out there and the fact we must maintain our

status at the top of the food chain.

I have been envolved with one judical inquiry while in EMS and a couple of

attempts at lawsuits which were quashed with the documentation and patient care

given.

I have also seen hospitals and other large entities settle out of court,

mostly because there was a fault somewhere. I have yet to see a settlement when

there is no wrong doing.

As an attorney friend relayed to me: " In a courtroom it is a tossup as to who

will win. "

We need to be aware of the possibility of lawsuits and ( my opinion only ) do

what is appropriate for the patient at any given time to limit this possibility.

wegandy1938@... wrote:

You may not have any money, but you do have a certificate/license. And

the

lawyers, if they're really vindictive, can go after that. Your employer's

mallpractice policy will not provide any protection for you there, and you'll

either represent yourself or pay a lawyer out of your own pocket.

Or, you and your employer may have a difference of opinion over who's to

blame in the lawsuit and you get thrown to the wolves. You suddenly find the

lawsuit is settled, and your medic patch is on the line.

So, please, people, buy insurance. A 1 million policy that also provides

$10,000 for defense of your certificate/license is just $160 a year, not even

the cost of one hour of a lawyer's time.

Gene G.

>

> Ok, so the lawsuits are all around us.

>

> If you don't have any money for the attorney's to recover usually there will

> not be a resulting suit.

>

> If you do proper patient care, sue people may, recover they may not.

>

> Proper documentation is paramount to CYA.

>

> Take my money if you can. Oh, that's right I don't have any money.

>

> rachfoote@... wrote:

> Why do patient refusals mean nothing? Just like any other piece of paper,

> they can say they were not properly informed of what they were refusing,

> they

> were unaware of the medical lingo they heard, they were not in their right

> state of mind at the time. I will say, that it is another tool we have to

> cover ourselves, but any lawyer, anywhere, can sue about anything. I believe

> that is a direct quote from GG.

>

> There is malpractice and their is good intent. I only said what I did

> because people these days are so legal crazy, we are having to run

> everything from

> blood tests to full body MRI's to cover our asses.

>

> I can see tomorrows first headline. Woman loses control of vehicle, kills 5

> children in a school zone and sues the pizza company that she was eating

> their pizza, when she lost control of the steering wheel of her car because

> there was too much grease on the pizza. Then her lawyer informs her they

> will

> also sue the vehicle manufacturer because steering wheel cover was not

> course

> enough for her to maintain control while eating greasy pizza. They will also

> sue the School District for not putting a walkway overpass over the street

> to

> avoid a collision with the children, and there was no ambulance on standby

> at the school that morning. A teacher had a heart attack when she saw the

> massacre and her husband sued the school district because they did not have

> an

> AED on scene. Should I go further into the next five lawsuits because no

> CISD

> team was ineffective in counseling all of those present at the time and

> another suit because there was no Catholic preist there to give last rights

> to

> the Catholic victims.

>

September 17, 2006

My thoughts....

In this case, I think that the EMT should have tried to pursuade her to go

to the hospital by ambulance as we are talking about a head injury. Whether

she was lucid and coherent or not, she took a hard blow to the head (plus

she is pregnant) and needs to be checked out even though she may seem fine.

I mean EMS personnel don't normally " clear " suspected head/spinal injuries

in the field do we? I would be trying everything short of begging her to let

me call for an ambulance as a precaution. If she still refuses have her sign

a release which will cover your behind. True you can still be sued, anyone

can sue anybody for anything, but it is more likely that they would have a

hard time finding a lawyer to take that case knowing it could be labled as a

frivolus suit which can get an attorney in trouble. What caused the world to

go legal crazy like it has is those Deep Pockets always " settling " and

paying parties big money for the suit to " go away " .

Secondly, although the EMT is only event staff and not a full time employee

at the stadium, he is considered an employee at the time of the incident

which I would think makes the stadium responsible for his actions. Now they

may pull the rug out from under the EMT if it is determined that he should

have offered transport as an option and failed to do so but the stadium then

says hey pal you are on your own as we hired you to be an EMT and we

reasonably expected you to act within proper standards and you didn't.

(Pulling the old rug out from under him.)

And finally, we are talking about Major League Baseball. Although is is a

minor league team it still falls under Major League Baseball and they

require the P.A. announcer to make an announcement prior to the first pitch

advising people to " Keep your eyes on the action at all times and be aware

of hard hit foul balls and bats thrown into the stands, especially down the

baselines. " The same warning is printed on the reverse of all tickets. This

is put in place for all levels by Major League Baseball.

In closing may I add, if you are going to a ball game to watch the game, sit

behind the dugout, bring a glove, and enjoy the action. If you are going for

the purposes of discussing the color schemes of the nursery or make

preparations for the baby shower then sit in the upper deck or other

protected areas. And if you are an EMT working there and a fan gets hit in

the head, pregnant or otherwise, try to get them to go to the ER by

ambulance. If they refuse have them sign a refusal. If they agree great, you

just made some money for your company. Either way your, Butt is covered.

Just my twin copper tender disks!!!

Jim

>From: rachfoote@...

>Reply-To: texasems-l

>To: texasems-l

>Subject: Re: Foul Balls, EMT's and " no ambulances "

>Date: Sun, 17 Sep 2006 15:06:25 EDT

>

>In a message dated 9/17/2006 1:18:21 PM Central Standard Time,

>petsardlj@... writes:

>

>I have yet to see a settlement when there is no wrong doing.

>

>Well you can bet they happen. I have seen cities give meaningless amounts

>($500-$5,000) to avoid going to court in a county known for its ridiculous

>jury awards, even when there was no doubt that the Police or EMS or the

>Parks

>and Recreation people (at least 5or 6 times a week, people drive by where

>they

>are mowing and claim their windshield got a rock when there is a cover

>over

>the mower and the crack looks 3 months old). So it does happen. Usually

>in

>the urban or suburban sections of a large town.

>

September 17, 2006

In a message dated 9/17/2006 9:03:08 PM Central Standard Time,

petsardlj@... writes:

It takes money to induce and continue a lawsuit. Unless you are faced with

someone who has an inordinate amount of money what you are speaking of is

fairy tale.

We have a man who lives in a shack filing a lawsuit because his attorney

took the case to reap 40% of what he gets, even if it is $4000 out of a $10,000

settlement. It only takes paperwork from his secretary.

Why would I say something like beware just to intimidate and scare my

employees?

September 17, 2006

Not only that...but legal care is EXPENSIVE and the decision has to be made by

the company, agency, jurisdiction and its insurance and legal counsel if the

" win " is worth the cost or if it wouldn't be better to pay a small amount out to

make it go away.

These are not easy decisions to make and are often fright with emotion, anger,

angst, etc....ESPECIALLY when there was no wrong-doing. A store has someone slip

on a banana peel and fall in their produce section. There is video showing them

putting the banana peel on the floor before they fell on it....yet they are

willing to go away and settle the lawsuit for $10,000. The company knows that to

get the case to a place in court where it can be thrown out will cost them

$25,000 in legal fees plus the time and effort of their employees that were on

duty the day it occurred.

The decision is now how to proceed. Do we take a chance that the judge won't

throw it out (because an employee is in the background of the video and sees

them put the banana peel on the ground but does not react or respond in the

subsequent 15 seconds it takes them to step on it an fall) or do they settle? Do

they take it to court and " make a stand " so that others won't be throwing banana

peels on the floor in the future?

In many cases, even though there is no documented wrong-doing on the part of

the accused, they will settle giving the plaintiff their $1,500 and Dewey,

Skreuem, and Howe their $8,500....to make it go away and save them money.

Just because there is a settlement...NEVER EVER assume there was wrong doing on

the part of the person doing the settling.

Dudley

Re: Foul Balls, EMT's and " no ambulances "

In a message dated 9/17/2006 1:18:21 PM Central Standard Time,

petsardlj@... writes:

I have yet to see a settlement when there is no wrong doing.

Well you can bet they happen. I have seen cities give meaningless amounts

($500-$5,000) to avoid going to court in a county known for its ridiculous

jury awards, even when there was no doubt that the Police or EMS or the Parks

and Recreation people (at least 5or 6 times a week, people drive by where they

are mowing and claim their windshield got a rock when there is a cover over

the mower and the crack looks 3 months old). So it does happen. Usually in

the urban or suburban sections of a large town.

September 17, 2006

This is a good discussion, and some very good points have been made.

I would like to say one thing about how lawyers get paid. The contingent

fee allows people who don't have the money to pay a lawyer to pursue a case.

If plaintiffs were required to foot the bill, most people wouldn't be able to

file a case, no matter how deserving they might be.

The expenses of litigation are enormous. The lawyer gets nothing if there

is no recovery, so, as in any other business, fees have to cover losses in

other cases. Lawyers have very high overhead, and it goes on whether or not

they

have any winning cases or not.

Very, very few lawyers ever hit that " home run " and get a million dollar

judgment that they can collect. Most of the giant judgments eventually get

scaled back by the trial judge or in the appeals process, or there is a

settlement

for significantly less than the award. Most such settlements are secret, so

we don't hear about them.

Only a small percentage of medical malpractice cases result in a significant

amount of damages being awarded. Most are settled reasonably, and the cases

that you read which are in the category of the Macdonalds coffee case are few

and far between. And, of course, the judgment in that case was scaled way,

way back, and they didn't pay anything close to the amount awarded.

Now, I will not say that there are not lawyers who abuse the system, but in

today's world, most cannot afford to take cases that don't have substance.

Lawyers that I work for are careful to get experts' opinions before they file,

and I have told many lawyers that they didn't have breach of standard of care

in their case.

The difficult cases occur when there is a fine line between breach of

standard and non-breach. That's where experts can differ, and those are

generally the

cases that get tried.

It is true that some insurers use a balancing formula to determine

settlement. They are interested in the bottom line more than they are in the

liability

or non-liability of their insured, unless there is a new and innovative

problem involved, in which case they either settle or stone wall it, like in the

Vioxx cases.

But it's true that if they can settle for $10,000 and it will cost a minimum

of $25,000 to work the case up and try it, they'll opt to settle.

Settlements uniformly are made without any admission of liability.

Once again, the best defense against malpractice is to give good, kind care,

to know your craft and practice it well, and document what you do in terms

that clearly show to anyone reading it that standard of care has been delivered.

And remember that people are not likely to sue those they like.

The first thing I do when I look over a case is ask this question: Does the

PCR show on its face that the standards were reasonably adhered to? If so,

no case. If I can't tell from the documentation, then red flags are raised

and alarm bells ring. I look for all the blanks to be filled in, for an

adequate assessment to be described, and for a reasonable treatment plan under

the

circumstances. Gaps in those processes raise questions.

Gene G.

>

> As a business owner I do understand where these things can lead.

>

> As an individual who has been involved with a lawsuit for a few years I also

> see it from that side.

>

> What you speak of (unless it is true life experience) is old wives tales. It

> takes money to induce and continue a lawsuit. Unless you are faced with

> someone who has an inordinate amount of money what you are speaking of is

fairy

> tale.

>

> If there is no wrong doing on your part as a business you cannot afford to

> let even the smallest amount of money leave your pocket. Unless you expect to

> be able to take a loss at a later date and you have the money to expend.

>

> Lawsuits are scary stories told to employees to scare and intimidate them.

> They do exist and if you are on top of your game you will not allow an

> employee to make those type of wrong decisions.

>

> Good supervisors who understand their job as well as those under them will

> not allow many lawsuits to occur.

>

> Everyone is human as well and being that we are prone to mistakes. Sadly our

> mistakes sometimes cause the death of someone else. This is where the

> lawsuit comes into play.

>

> The lawsuit can be and often is avoided when we know our job, do good

> documentation and assure that others around us are just as competent.

>

> Incompetence is the food that allows the Lawsuit monster to remain healthy.

>

> I am not saying that lawsuits do not occur even when you are doing a good

> job. I am not saying that many a good paramedic or even EMT-Basic has not lost

> a job because they did what they were instructed to and were thrown to the

> wolves because a sacrifice had to be left at the offering table.

>

> I believe it is the attitude of " Let's get rid of the problem and we will

> not see it again " that has allowed these unsubstantiated Lawsuits to become

> more and more common.

>

> Incompetence at the lower levels of EMS as well as at the top has made these

> lawsuits more common than they should be.

>

> But hell, our society is one that has decided it is someone elses

> responsibility to get us to where we need to be and not ours anyway. So why

not just

> sue the hell out of everyone, take what is coming to us and forget about what

> living and being human is all about. The Stongest survive and that is just the

> way it is.

>

> No offense to our attorney friends but it is the attorney's who usually come

> out with the money anyway. Figure out what 40% of a winning lawsuit comes

> out to.That is the going rate for attorney recoup post lawsuit. Then figure

the

> losses the suing party has after many years of fighting and consider the

> loss.

>

> It is money that keep lawsuits around. No money. No lawsuit.

>

> THEDUDMAN@... wrote:

> Not only that...but legal care is EXPENSIVE and the decision has to be made

> by the company, agency, jurisdiction and its insurance and legal counsel if

> the " win " is worth the cost or if it wouldn't be better to pay a small amount

> out to make it go away.

>

> These are not easy decisions to make and are often fright with emotion,

> anger, angst, etc....ESPECIALLY when there was no wrong-doing. A store has

> someone slip on a banana peel and fall in their produce section. There is

video

> showing them putting the banana peel on the floor before they fell on

it....yet

> they are willing to go away and settle the lawsuit for $10,000. The company

> knows that to get the case to a place in court where it can be thrown out will

> cost them $25,000 in legal fees plus the time and effort of their employees

> that were on duty the day it occurred.

>

> The decision is now how to proceed. Do we take a chance that the judge won't

> throw it out (because an employee is in the background of the video and sees

> them put the banana peel on the ground but does not react or respond in the

> subsequent 15 seconds it takes them to step on it an fall) or do they settle?

> Do they take it to court and " make a stand " so that others won't be throwing

> banana peels on the floor in the future?

>

> In many cases, even though there is no documented wrong-doing on the part of

> the accused, they will settle giving the plaintiff their $1,500 and Dewey,

> Skreuem, and Howe their $8,500....to make it go away and save them money.

>

> Just because there is a settlement.. Just because there is a settlement..<

> wbr>.NEVER EVER assume there was wrong doing on

>

> Dudley

>

> Re: Foul Balls, EMT's and " no ambulances "

>

> In a message dated 9/17/2006 1:18:21 PM Central Standard Time,

> petsardlj@sbcglobalpets writes:

>

> I have yet to see a settlement when there is no wrong doing.

>

> Well you can bet they happen. I have seen cities give meaningless amounts

> ($500-$5,000) to avoid going to court in a county known for its ridiculous

> jury awards, even when there was no doubt that the Police or EMS or the

> Parks

> and Recreation people (at least 5or 6 times a week, people drive by where

> they

> are mowing and claim their windshield got a rock when there is a cover over

> the mower and the crack looks 3 months old). So it does happen. Usually in

> the urban or suburban sections of a large town.

>

September 17, 2006

As a business owner I do understand where these things can lead.

As an individual who has been involved with a lawsuit for a few years I also

see it from that side.

What you speak of (unless it is true life experience) is old wives tales. It

takes money to induce and continue a lawsuit. Unless you are faced with someone

who has an inordinate amount of money what you are speaking of is fairy tale.

If there is no wrong doing on your part as a business you cannot afford to let

even the smallest amount of money leave your pocket. Unless you expect to be

able to take a loss at a later date and you have the money to expend.

Lawsuits are scary stories told to employees to scare and intimidate them.

They do exist and if you are on top of your game you will not allow an employee

to make those type of wrong decisions.

Good supervisors who understand their job as well as those under them will not

allow many lawsuits to occur.

Everyone is human as well and being that we are prone to mistakes. Sadly our

mistakes sometimes cause the death of someone else. This is where the lawsuit

comes into play.

The lawsuit can be and often is avoided when we know our job, do good

documentation and assure that others around us are just as competent.

Incompetence is the food that allows the Lawsuit monster to remain healthy.

I am not saying that lawsuits do not occur even when you are doing a good job.

I am not saying that many a good paramedic or even EMT-Basic has not lost a job

because they did what they were instructed to and were thrown to the wolves

because a sacrifice had to be left at the offering table.

I believe it is the attitude of " Let's get rid of the problem and we will not

see it again " that has allowed these unsubstatiated Lawsuits to become more and

more common.

Incompetence at the lower levels of EMS as well as at the top has made these

lawsuits more common than they should be.

But hell, our society is one that has decided it is someone elses

responsibility to get us to where we need to be and not ours anyway. So why not

just sue the hell out of everyone, take what is coming to us and forget about

what living and being human is all about. The Stongest survive and that is just

the way it is.

No offense to our attorney friends but it is the attorney's who usually come

out with the money anyway. Figure out what 40% of a winning lawsuit comes out

to.That is the going rate for attorney recoup post lawsuit. Then figure the

losses the suing party has after many years of fighting and consider the loss.

It is money that keep lawsuits around. No money. No lawsuit.

THEDUDMAN@... wrote:

Not only that...but legal care is EXPENSIVE and the decision has to be

made by the company, agency, jurisdiction and its insurance and legal counsel if

the " win " is worth the cost or if it wouldn't be better to pay a small amount

out to make it go away.

These are not easy decisions to make and are often fright with emotion, anger,

angst, etc....ESPECIALLY when there was no wrong-doing. A store has someone slip

on a banana peel and fall in their produce section. There is video showing them

putting the banana peel on the floor before they fell on it....yet they are

willing to go away and settle the lawsuit for $10,000. The company knows that to

get the case to a place in court where it can be thrown out will cost them

$25,000 in legal fees plus the time and effort of their employees that were on

duty the day it occurred.

The decision is now how to proceed. Do we take a chance that the judge won't

throw it out (because an employee is in the background of the video and sees

them put the banana peel on the ground but does not react or respond in the

subsequent 15 seconds it takes them to step on it an fall) or do they settle? Do

they take it to court and " make a stand " so that others won't be throwing banana

peels on the floor in the future?

In many cases, even though there is no documented wrong-doing on the part of the

accused, they will settle giving the plaintiff their $1,500 and Dewey, Skreuem,

and Howe their $8,500....to make it go away and save them money.

Just because there is a settlement...NEVER EVER assume there was wrong doing on

the part of the person doing the settling.

Dudley

Re: Foul Balls, EMT's and " no ambulances "

In a message dated 9/17/2006 1:18:21 PM Central Standard Time,

petsardlj@... writes:

I have yet to see a settlement when there is no wrong doing.

Well you can bet they happen. I have seen cities give meaningless amounts

($500-$5,000) to avoid going to court in a county known for its ridiculous

jury awards, even when there was no doubt that the Police or EMS or the Parks

and Recreation people (at least 5or 6 times a week, people drive by where they

are mowing and claim their windshield got a rock when there is a cover over

the mower and the crack looks 3 months old). So it does happen. Usually in

the urban or suburban sections of a large town.

September 17, 2006

>>>You wrote: " What you speak of (unless it is true life experience) is old

wives tales. It takes money to induce and continue a lawsuit. Unless you are

faced with someone who has an inordinate amount of money what you are speaking

of is fairy tale. "

When was the last time you watched television past 2200 at night or before 1700

during the day? When was the last time you looked at the back cover of a phone

book?

In legitimate issues (like an organization suing another organization) you are

correct...but in the " its not my fault " society there is a segment of the legal

world that is happy to take a case where they can expect some type of settlement

for free until the settlement comes...and then the person who hired the attorney

would be fortunate to see 40%...

The banana peel story is not mine...but it is one an attorney has shared with

me...but I have seen and been involved with more lawsuits than I care to

imagine. Some we fought...some we settled...in either case it isn't easy...BTW,

I cannot think of a single lawsuit in my 22 year career that cost an employee

their job....

Now I can tell you of numerous times where employees made serious errors that

led to accidents and then led to their unemployment because of their lack of

regard for policies and procedures...(never for patient care however....) and I

have never seen any of them get sued...we (the big ugly company) got sued

because we had the money...the unemployed paramedic or EMT doesn't have any

cash...so they go after us, the company because we were the ones who hired the

person, kept them on for XXX amount of time....and then admited that we had a

mistake because we fired them....so it is our fault...see you in court...

Often, I have seen an organization get sued because of an error in patient care

or an error that was not " terminable " and we would never fire the employee when

the lawsuit comes...not only do you have a lawsuit from the person who feels

wronged but then you get a wrongful termination lawsuit as well....keep 'em on

board, remediate them, and keep them on your side....fire 'em and you'd be

surprised how quickly they end up on the plaintiff's side....

Employees who get " sacrificed " because of a lawsuit sounds like more of an old

wives tale than Dewey Skreuem and Howe suing for no fee to the plaintiff until

money is paid....

Dudley

Re: Foul Balls, EMT's and " no ambulances "

In a message dated 9/17/2006 1:18:21 PM Central Standard Time,

petsardlj@... writes:

I have yet to see a settlement when there is no wrong doing.

Well you can bet they happen. I have seen cities give meaningless amounts

($500-$5,000) to avoid going to court in a county known for its ridiculous

jury awards, even when there was no doubt that the Police or EMS or the Parks

and Recreation people (at least 5or 6 times a week, people drive by where they

are mowing and claim their windshield got a rock when there is a cover over

the mower and the crack looks 3 months old). So it does happen. Usually in

the urban or suburban sections of a large town.

September 18, 2006

Some fault is somewhere or the attorney would not take the case. Paperwork had

errors that a jury would believe to be a cover up or plain bad patient care.

I have seen intimidation. I have been a part of intimidation (receiving end).

It does happen.

Not sure about what you speak of as far as paperwork from the secretary.

rachfoote@... wrote:

In a message dated 9/17/2006 9:03:08 PM Central Standard Time,

petsardlj@... writes:

It takes money to induce and continue a lawsuit. Unless you are faced with

someone who has an inordinate amount of money what you are speaking of is

fairy tale.

We have a man who lives in a shack filing a lawsuit because his attorney

took the case to reap 40% of what he gets, even if it is $4000 out of a $10,000

settlement. It only takes paperwork from his secretary.

Why would I say something like beware just to intimidate and scare my

employees?

September 18, 2006

I don't watch television past 2200 or before 1700. I am either busy or I am

busy.

If I do watch television it is for entertainment or the national or local

news. Fox news is a good source.

Isn't the fact of the EMT possibly being at fault for failure to perform his

job as another prudent EMT would not what started this? Maybe I have slept

since then.

I have been and have seen employees get fired " for sacrifice " . That is not a

wives tale.

My point is that employees need to understand their job, supervisors need to

understand their job as well as the job of underlings. Do the job right, make

sure your paperwork is correct, and show some honest care toward your patients

and lawsuits are diminished if not beaten back all together.

THEDUDMAN@... wrote:

>>>You wrote: " What you speak of (unless it is true life experience)

is old wives tales. It takes money to induce and continue a lawsuit. Unless you

are faced with someone who has an inordinate amount of money what you are

speaking of is fairy tale. "