Today's Human Resources Dilemma Puzzler

[Guest guest]

You are the human resources nazi for a medium-sized 911/transfer service in a

city of about 100,000 people somewhere in the western part of the U.S.

You have a problem with a male employee who has been with the service for 12

years. When he was hired, he weighed 245. Now he weighs 550 pounds.

You use Type III ambulances, and the driver's seat when it's back as far as

it will go still doesn't give him enough room to drive the truck safely because

his abdomen is pressed against the steering wheel.

Nobody wants to be this guy's partner. Recently, when trying to treat a

patient who was lying in a ditch, he was unable to stand up and had to be helped

up. His skills and job performance are otherwise within the norms expected

in your service.

You have tried getting the employee to lose some weight, without success.

Now, you have given him 6 months to lose 100 pounds or he will be terminated.

He has contacted a lawyer who says that if you fire him, you will be sued

under the Americans With Disabilities Act. You counter that there is no

accommodation for him that would not be an undue hardship on your company, and

thus,

he is not covered by the Act.

What do you do?

Gene Gandy, JD, LP

[Guest guest]

With the ADA it is to protect employees with certain types of disabilities

as I understand it. If he is 550 lbs. he is a danger to himself and to

others. If he could not stand up by himself then he is no longer able to

perform the duties of the job. In the job description is should read 'be

able to perform all duties of the job' if he has an inability to stand up

alone then he can no longer do the job under the job description. Weight

loss counseling is a needed thing. But under the ADA the company has to be

able to put in place reasonable measures to help the disable be able to

work. In this case, it is not reasonable for the company to hire extra staff

to follow this employee around to help him stand up when he needs it. At

least that is my take on it, I may be wrong but there it is.

Lawrence Verrett

[Guest guest]

Hire a lawyer.

wegandy1938@... wrote:

You are the human resources nazi for a medium-sized 911/transfer

service in a

city of about 100,000 people somewhere in the western part of the U.S.

You have a problem with a male employee who has been with the service for 12

years. When he was hired, he weighed 245. Now he weighs 550 pounds.

You use Type III ambulances, and the driver's seat when it's back as far as

it will go still doesn't give him enough room to drive the truck safely because

his abdomen is pressed against the steering wheel.

Nobody wants to be this guy's partner. Recently, when trying to treat a

patient who was lying in a ditch, he was unable to stand up and had to be helped

up. His skills and job performance are otherwise within the norms expected

in your service.

You have tried getting the employee to lose some weight, without success.

Now, you have given him 6 months to lose 100 pounds or he will be terminated.

He has contacted a lawyer who says that if you fire him, you will be sued

under the Americans With Disabilities Act. You counter that there is no

accommodation for him that would not be an undue hardship on your company, and

thus,

he is not covered by the Act.

What do you do?

Gene Gandy, JD, LP

[Guest guest]

Here are some options..

Send the employee for an evaluation for fitness for duty, utilizing the

essential functions of the job as described in the employee's signed job

description. After a person starts work, a medical examination or inquiry

of an employee must be job-related and consistent with business necessity.

Employers may conduct employee medical examinations where there is evidence

of a job performance or safety problem, examinations required by other

Federal laws, examinations to determine current fitness to perform a

particular job, and voluntary examinations that are part of employee health

programs.

If he passes, you then have to determine if there are reasonable

accommodations that can be performed to allow the employee to continue work,

such as assigning the employee to a Type I ambulance (more cab room).

Accommodations must be reasonable, and not cause undue hardship on the

organization.

If the employee does not pass, you may elect to reassign him to a job in

which he does qualify. entry into a rehabilitation program to reduce his

weight, or termination for failing to meet the essential functions/duties of

the job.

Jack Pitcock

_____

From: texasems-l [mailto:texasems-l ] On

Behalf Of wegandy1938@...

Sent: Sunday, June 11, 2006 12:01 AM

To: texasems-l ; Paramedicine

Subject: Today's Human Resources Dilemma Puzzler

You are the human resources nazi for a medium-sized 911/transfer service in

a

city of about 100,000 people somewhere in the western part of the U.S.

You have a problem with a male employee who has been with the service for 12

years. When he was hired, he weighed 245. Now he weighs 550 pounds.

You use Type III ambulances, and the driver's seat when it's back as far as

it will go still doesn't give him enough room to drive the truck safely

because

his abdomen is pressed against the steering wheel.

Nobody wants to be this guy's partner. Recently, when trying to treat a

patient who was lying in a ditch, he was unable to stand up and had to be

helped

up. His skills and job performance are otherwise within the norms expected

in your service.

You have tried getting the employee to lose some weight, without success.

Now, you have given him 6 months to lose 100 pounds or he will be

terminated.

He has contacted a lawyer who says that if you fire him, you will be sued

under the Americans With Disabilities Act. You counter that there is no

accommodation for him that would not be an undue hardship on your company,

and thus,

he is not covered by the Act.

What do you do?

Gene Gandy, JD, LP

[Guest guest]

Hire Gene Gandy to represent the firm, either in the ADA trial or at the

bankruptcy or both.

This would be tough!

Don

>

> You are the human resources nazi for a medium-sized 911/transfer service in a

> city of about 100,000 people somewhere in the western part of the U.S.

>

> You have a problem with a male employee who has been with the service for 12

> years. When he was hired, he weighed 245. Now he weighs 550 pounds.

>

> You use Type III ambulances, and the driver's seat when it's back as far as

> it will go still doesn't give him enough room to drive the truck safely

because

> his abdomen is pressed against the steering wheel.

>

> Nobody wants to be this guy's partner. Recently, when trying to treat a

> patient who was lying in a ditch, he was unable to stand up and had to be

helped

> up. His skills and job performance are otherwise within the norms expected

> in your service.

>

> You have tried getting the employee to lose some weight, without success.

> Now, you have given him 6 months to lose 100 pounds or he will be terminated.

>

> He has contacted a lawyer who says that if you fire him, you will be sued

> under the Americans With Disabilities Act. You counter that there is no

> accommodation for him that would not be an undue hardship on your company, and

thus,

> he is not covered by the Act.

>

> What do you do?

>

> Gene Gandy, JD, LP

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

I would hope that as the HR weenie, I would have already secured legal

services on the front end to review our job descriptions, employee manual,

and our processes to determine how and when to address things such as this.

If you do nothing, there is a risk to the employee, other employees, and our

customers. which leads to lawsuit.

If you do something, you are protecting the employer, other employees, and

our customers. and you'll still end up in a lawsuit.

Regardless, as the employer, you're still gonna get kicked!

Jack

_____

From: texasems-l [mailto:texasems-l ] On

Behalf Of phillipsdo

Sent: Sunday, June 11, 2006 9:55 AM

To: texasems-l

Subject: Re: Today's Human Resources Dilemma Puzzler

Hire Gene Gandy to represent the firm, either in the ADA trial or at the

bankruptcy or both.

This would be tough!

Don

>

> You are the human resources nazi for a medium-sized 911/transfer service

in a

> city of about 100,000 people somewhere in the western part of the U.S.

>

> You have a problem with a male employee who has been with the service for

12

> years. When he was hired, he weighed 245. Now he weighs 550 pounds.

>

> You use Type III ambulances, and the driver's seat when it's back as far

as

> it will go still doesn't give him enough room to drive the truck safely

because

> his abdomen is pressed against the steering wheel.

>

> Nobody wants to be this guy's partner. Recently, when trying to treat a

> patient who was lying in a ditch, he was unable to stand up and had to be

helped

> up. His skills and job performance are otherwise within the norms expected

> in your service.

>

> You have tried getting the employee to lose some weight, without success.

> Now, you have given him 6 months to lose 100 pounds or he will be

terminated.

>

> He has contacted a lawyer who says that if you fire him, you will be sued

> under the Americans With Disabilities Act. You counter that there is no

> accommodation for him that would not be an undue hardship on your company,

and

thus,

> he is not covered by the Act.

>

> What do you do?

>

> Gene Gandy, JD, LP

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

you could consider a job related physical agility test for all employee`s if

they dont pass they have a set amount of time to rehab if they fail twice resign

them yes setting this program up would cost money but it`s cheaper than a

lawsuit and it includes all employees so it can be non-discriminatory it could

be conducted yearly once in place I would also start looking into the Texas

at-will employment laws

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/At-will_employment

afew things to consider

- Chris

phillipsdo wrote:

Hire Gene Gandy to represent the firm, either in the ADA trial or at

the bankruptcy or both.

This would be tough!

Don

>

> You are the human resources nazi for a medium-sized 911/transfer service in a

> city of about 100,000 people somewhere in the western part of the U.S.

>

> You have a problem with a male employee who has been with the service for 12

> years. When he was hired, he weighed 245. Now he weighs 550 pounds.

>

> You use Type III ambulances, and the driver's seat when it's back as far as

> it will go still doesn't give him enough room to drive the truck safely

because

> his abdomen is pressed against the steering wheel.

>

> Nobody wants to be this guy's partner. Recently, when trying to treat a

> patient who was lying in a ditch, he was unable to stand up and had to be

helped

> up. His skills and job performance are otherwise within the norms expected

> in your service.

>

> You have tried getting the employee to lose some weight, without success.

> Now, you have given him 6 months to lose 100 pounds or he will be terminated.

>

> He has contacted a lawyer who says that if you fire him, you will be sued

> under the Americans With Disabilities Act. You counter that there is no

> accommodation for him that would not be an undue hardship on your company, and

thus,

> he is not covered by the Act.

>

> What do you do?

>

> Gene Gandy, JD, LP

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Today's Human Resources Dilemma Puzzler

You are the human resources nazi for a medium-sized 911/transfer service in

a

city of about 100,000 people somewhere in the western part of the U.S.

You have a problem with a male employee who has been with the service for 12

years. When he was hired, he weighed 245. Now he weighs 550 pounds.

You use Type III ambulances, and the driver's seat when it's back as far as

it will go still doesn't give him enough room to drive the truck safely

because

his abdomen is pressed against the steering wheel.

Nobody wants to be this guy's partner. Recently, when trying to treat a

patient who was lying in a ditch, he was unable to stand up and had to be

helped

up. His skills and job performance are otherwise within the norms expected

in your service.

You have tried getting the employee to lose some weight, without success.

Now, you have given him 6 months to lose 100 pounds or he will be

terminated.

He has contacted a lawyer who says that if you fire him, you will be sued

under the Americans With Disabilities Act. You counter that there is no

accommodation for him that would not be an undue hardship on your company,

and thus,

he is not covered by the Act.

What do you do?

Gene Gandy, JD, LP

[Guest guest]

There should be a resolution that would be beneficial to both employee and

employer. I might see if there is a possibility of speaking with employee and

probably his and my lawyer where a situation could be arrived at.

As metioned before that amount of weight gain is not only harmful to the

employee (i.e. possible cardic failure on a stressful scene) but also possibly

harmful to the patient ( i.e. employee suffers cardiac difficulties, patient is

unable to be taken care of properly)

Then we get to company liability from the possible lawsuit for failure to take

care of the patient properly, the lawsuit from the employee possibly for lack of

safety in not attempting to correct the problem earlier which has resulted in

the employee suffering a heart attack (if that were to happen)

The questions I think I would be asking are:

Has the employee been previously counseled on the situation?

Is there available an option to retain the employee and place them into a

position where they will be a continued asset?

Is there actually a risk associated with this employee or is it just being

perceieved incorrectly?

Assistance with billing and other secretarial diuties may be an immediate

relocation until the weight is at a safe level.

Just a few thoughts

wegandy1938@... wrote:

You are the human resources nazi for a medium-sized 911/transfer

service in a

city of about 100,000 people somewhere in the western part of the U.S.

You have a problem with a male employee who has been with the service for 12

years. When he was hired, he weighed 245. Now he weighs 550 pounds.

You use Type III ambulances, and the driver's seat when it's back as far as

it will go still doesn't give him enough room to drive the truck safely because

his abdomen is pressed against the steering wheel.

Nobody wants to be this guy's partner. Recently, when trying to treat a

patient who was lying in a ditch, he was unable to stand up and had to be helped

up. His skills and job performance are otherwise within the norms expected

in your service.

You have tried getting the employee to lose some weight, without success.

Now, you have given him 6 months to lose 100 pounds or he will be terminated.

He has contacted a lawyer who says that if you fire him, you will be sued

under the Americans With Disabilities Act. You counter that there is no

accommodation for him that would not be an undue hardship on your company, and

thus,

he is not covered by the Act.

What do you do?

Gene Gandy, JD, LP

[Guest guest]

Afraid there is much more to it than that, specifically, is it in the

written job description. Was it in the job description when he was hired?

Was it explained to him when he was hired? Has he been counseled on it? Are

reasonable accommodations being made? Can they be made? Has he been given

opportunity to meet the requirements? Are the requirements the same for

everyone? Are they all meeting the same standards? Taking the same tests?

Try to reassign him, then hire an attorney because no matter what you say or

do, he is gonna scream discrimination.

So Gene, how does one gently escort him out the door without paying a

settlement?

Mike

RE: Today's Human Resources Dilemma Puzzler

Today's Human Resources Dilemma Puzzler

You are the human resources nazi for a medium-sized 911/transfer service in

a

city of about 100,000 people somewhere in the western part of the U.S.

You have a problem with a male employee who has been with the service for 12

years. When he was hired, he weighed 245. Now he weighs 550 pounds.

You use Type III ambulances, and the driver's seat when it's back as far as

it will go still doesn't give him enough room to drive the truck safely

because

his abdomen is pressed against the steering wheel.

Nobody wants to be this guy's partner. Recently, when trying to treat a

patient who was lying in a ditch, he was unable to stand up and had to be

helped

up. His skills and job performance are otherwise within the norms expected

in your service.

You have tried getting the employee to lose some weight, without success.

Now, you have given him 6 months to lose 100 pounds or he will be

terminated.

He has contacted a lawyer who says that if you fire him, you will be sued

under the Americans With Disabilities Act. You counter that there is no

accommodation for him that would not be an undue hardship on your company,

and thus,

he is not covered by the Act.

What do you do?

Gene Gandy, JD, LP

[Guest guest]

this brings to mind a farside cartoon with an extreemly fat lady parking in a

handicap parking spot and a security officer telling her she couldnt park there

and she said " Well, where people like me SUPPOSED to park?!?! "

is this said person able to operate the cot safely, what about bending over to

pick up a loaded backboard off of the ground?

if nothing else, instate a program to have physicals for all employees yearly

and make it retroactive.

Today's Human Resources Dilemma Puzzler

You are the human resources nazi for a medium-sized 911/transfer service in a

city of about 100,000 people somewhere in the western part of the U.S.

You have a problem with a male employee who has been with the service for 12

years. When he was hired, he weighed 245. Now he weighs 550 pounds.

You use Type III ambulances, and the driver's seat when it's back as far as

it will go still doesn't give him enough room to drive the truck safely

because

his abdomen is pressed against the steering wheel.

Nobody wants to be this guy's partner. Recently, when trying to treat a

patient who was lying in a ditch, he was unable to stand up and had to be

helped

up. His skills and job performance are otherwise within the norms expected

in your service.

You have tried getting the employee to lose some weight, without success.

Now, you have given him 6 months to lose 100 pounds or he will be terminated.

He has contacted a lawyer who says that if you fire him, you will be sued

under the Americans With Disabilities Act. You counter that there is no

accommodation for him that would not be an undue hardship on your company, and

thus,

he is not covered by the Act.

What do you do?

Gene Gandy, JD, LP

[Guest guest]

First of all, we don't set up a program that will affect all of our

employees because we don't want to deal with ONE of them.

Secondly, if we don't have a job description with the BFOQ's spelled

out in it...then unless you can prove a safety issue (not to him but to

the organization, his peers, and the community) than you are up a

proverbial creek without a paddle. The safety issue to concentrate on

is the steering wheel against the abdomen. If you can't steer the

truck you are unsafe. You determine this by inspection and ride

along...maybe a cone course even if you are that concerned....

If you have a job description with your BFOQ's spelled out well...then

like Jack said, you have reasonable cause to test him in those BFOQ's.

If he doesn't pass...there is your out...now you could be an uncaring

" guy " and kick him out the door...or you could be more caring and give

him a period of time to BE ABLE TO DO THE BFOQ's...not lose 100 lbs in

6 months...but be able to do the agility and drive a truck without the

steering wheel imbedded in his abdomen.

If you decide to do this however...be prepared to offer it to ALL other

employees who have some type of disability or illness/injury

regardless. If you do it for one...you have to do it for all...but

that goes back to what type of organization you desire to have.

Let him get a lawyer...no biggie...because our lawyer is guiding us

through ADA accomodations...and guess what...you are always going to

get sued...especially over HR issues...

(Side Bar here...I like that lawyer talk...we talk all the time about

the liability surrounding intubation, refusals, etc....but HR law is

the LARGEST liability any EMS agency faces...because of stuff like this

and the fact that the most senior best performing paramedic who gets

the leadership job has no CLUE about HR law)

Now...do we want some type of physical agility test for all our

employees...because we want to make sure they are physically fit? Then

that is fine and probably a great idea...again, it can be done

voluntarily or manditorily...but either way...our attorney will assist

us in getting it set up.

BTW, I have worked a situation VERY familiar to this one in a previous

life...matter of fact the guy had black stains across his white uniform

shirts from the steering wheel and his partner's alleged he couldn't

step up into the back of the truck...(much bigger problem than not

getting up out of the ditch...cause you kinda got to get in the back of

the truck on most calls...)

All of the functions we required were well documented and he

failed...we used our EAP plan to get him back in a few months...and all

is well today....

HR is one of those areas we have to be well prepared in TODAY before

the issue arises...once it is here...not much we can do but ask how

many zero's should be put on that check...

Dudley

Re: Re: Today's Human Resources Dilemma Puzzler

you could consider a job related physical agility test for all

employee`s if they dont pass they have a set amount of time to rehab if

they fail twice resign them yes setting this program up would cost

money but it`s cheaper than a lawsuit and it includes all employees so

it can be non-discriminatory it could be conducted yearly once in place

I would also start looking into the Texas at-will employment laws

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/At-will_employment

afew things to consider

- Chris

phillipsdo wrote:

Hire Gene Gandy to represent the firm, either in the ADA trial or at

the bankruptcy or both.

This would be tough!

Don

>

> You are the human resources nazi for a medium-sized 911/transfer

service in a

> city of about 100,000 people somewhere in the western part of the

U.S.

>

> You have a problem with a male employee who has been with the

service for 12

> years. When he was hired, he weighed 245. Now he weighs 550 pounds.

>

> You use Type III ambulances, and the driver's seat when it's back as

far as

> it will go still doesn't give him enough room to drive the truck

safely because

> his abdomen is pressed against the steering wheel.

>

> Nobody wants to be this guy's partner. Recently, when trying to

treat a

> patient who was lying in a ditch, he was unable to stand up and had

to be helped

> up. His skills and job performance are otherwise within the norms

expected

> in your service.

>

> You have tried getting the employee to lose some weight, without

success.

> Now, you have given him 6 months to lose 100 pounds or he will be

terminated.

>

> He has contacted a lawyer who says that if you fire him, you will be

sued

> under the Americans With Disabilities Act. You counter that there is

no

> accommodation for him that would not be an undue hardship on your

company, and

thus,

> he is not covered by the Act.

>

> What do you do?

>

> Gene Gandy, JD, LP

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

I would terminate the employee if he did not comply with the directive. The

employee does not fall under the act. Does the department have a job

description that identifies work performance? Is there a policy regarding

work performance? If the answer is yes then does the employee meet

performance standards? Does the department perform annual evaluations and

has this issue been identified?

ray

Today's Human Resources Dilemma Puzzler

You are the human resources nazi for a medium-sized 911/transfer service in

a

city of about 100,000 people somewhere in the western part of the U.S.

You have a problem with a male employee who has been with the service for 12

years. When he was hired, he weighed 245. Now he weighs 550 pounds.

You use Type III ambulances, and the driver's seat when it's back as far as

it will go still doesn't give him enough room to drive the truck safely

because

his abdomen is pressed against the steering wheel.

Nobody wants to be this guy's partner. Recently, when trying to treat a

patient who was lying in a ditch, he was unable to stand up and had to be

helped

up. His skills and job performance are otherwise within the norms expected

in your service.

You have tried getting the employee to lose some weight, without success.

Now, you have given him 6 months to lose 100 pounds or he will be

terminated.

He has contacted a lawyer who says that if you fire him, you will be sued

under the Americans With Disabilities Act. You counter that there is no

accommodation for him that would not be an undue hardship on your company,

and thus,

he is not covered by the Act.

What do you do?

Gene Gandy, JD, LP

[Guest guest]

We seem to believe that because Texas is an 'at will' state, that we can

terminate anyone 'just because. In essence, you can't, at least not without

being able to prove that you DIDN'T fire them for discriminatory reasons.

This issue is not just about the weight, it's a good nightmare for HR people

and managers alike.

While I can appreciate that his weight is a problem, and if you terminate

him because his weight won't allow him to get inside a crushed car, you

better make sure all your ducks are in a row, and that everyone else in your

service CAN get into that same crushed car, otherwise, you just

discriminated against him and are picking on him. If you require him to do

a lift test, you better make sure that EVERYONE in your department has had

the same test, and passed. You better make sure that your SOP's are clear

and concise about job descriptions.

How many of us utilize a generic job description? Would it hold up against

the scenario Gene has put out? It takes more than just 'unable to

perform....'.

The same could go for pregnant females.

So long as the doctor has cleared them to work, they are able to do their

job and remain on the job. You can require them to do a life test to insure

that they are capable of doing their job, but unless you required them to

take that same lift test when they were hired, and required everyone else to

take the same lift test, you best not take her from the bus unless you want

to hear from the guys wearing alligator shoes.

If a doctor has cleared him to work, and you don't have any guidelines to

fall back on, suffice to say that you are screwed, and stuck with a 500+lb

patient. Does obesity fall under the ADA? People recently are suing for

that, from airline seats to toilets. It's not our fault they tip the scales,

but it appears to be our responsibility to take care of them after they did.

Not as simple as it seems.

Still waiting for Gene to explain how to gently push (or roll) the guy out

the door without sending the accompanying settlement check.

Hatfield FF/EMT-P

www.canyonlakefire-ems.org <http://www.canyonlakefire-ems.org/>

www.michaelhatfield.net <http://www.michaelhatfield.net/>