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In a message dated 17-Apr-06 13:03:24 Central Daylight Time,

ExLngHrn@... writes:

Just seemed too intriguing not to pass along.

http://www.medpagetoday.com/Pediatrics/Parenting/tb/3098

-Wes

Actually, having read the paper (and I'll go ahead and register to take the

'post test'...), I noticed two things...

First, the 'self mutilation' of both the Goth and Punk subcultures might

better be classified as 'self decoration'...I've treated Goths, and Punks and

Cutters...and most of the Cutters I've treated have been neither Goths nor

Punks, but 'nice white' teen girls who had some other stressor in their life

that

they were trying to make go away....

Most of these girls could not, for what ever reason, express what was wrong

with their lives[1]...and many of them that I have seen came from strongly

religious backgrounds.

Second, most of the kids who do " Go Goth " are already under stress at

school, and I suspect, feel more comfortable with other kids who are under

similar

stress...you might notice that no one popular enough or athletic enough to be

a 'BMOC' or " PGOC " [2] ever goes Goth...or punk...

Third: from the paper:

<block quote>

Even after adjusting for other known predictors such as being female, having

divorced or separated parents, smoking, drug use, and depression, Goth

identification remained the single strongest predictor of self-harm or suicide

attempt, the study found.

</block quote>

What is the ONE factor that they don't mention in their list of adjustments?

[3]

Fourth: I suspect that we are seeing the Goth world through the filters of

an upper middle class Brit attitude...maybe Stephan could assist in picking

some more of the details out...

ck

S. Krin, DO FAAFP

[1] Nonconsensual sexual activity...a fair number of the Cutters that I have

worked with in the past eventually admitted that they had been subjected to

non consensual sexual activity at or from a young age...

[2] Big Man On Campus, AKA " JOCK " , Popular Gal On Campus, AKA

" Cheerleader " ...

[3] See #1 above...many of the popular kids are sexually active, but it is

much more 'consensual' than the cutters...or at least as consensual as it can

be when it involves a 250 pound football player and a 90 pound cheerleader...

ck

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Dr. Krin's post notes several factors clincially significant in

dealing with " Goth " kids . . . from the epidemiologist's view

(reaosnably well acquainted with suicide epi over the past quarter

century), there's another concern that has to taken soberly: The

commonality that draws kids into the " Goth " typing is alienation;

alienation is a manifestation of social angst.

Angst is an element of pathos rather than pathology. Just as Dr.

Kirn describes cutters as creating a physical " decoration " --not

unlike the piercings and tattoos that also express membership among

the disaffected--suicidal gestures are the performance art of

alienation and angst. You just ain't nobody in that realm if you've

never done something to off yourself.

This is absolutely *not* to minimize the levels of depression and

hopelessness associated with accepted the identity of outcast, nor

does it clarify in the least the causal direction (to wit, whether

one is alientated becasue one is Goth or Goth because one is

alientated). But as Bandura posited a few decades back, social

learning involves reciprocal determination . . . in plainer

language, this is a spiral not an arrow.

The models for social angst have become darker over the years,

fueled in aprt by the Oprahization of deviance--look at what parades

across the promos for Sally, Oprah, Ricki, and Montel every morning

and ask yourself this: If I want deviance as my identity these

days, how far have I got to go to reach the second standard

deviation to the South? For literary and musical hints, revisit

Oliver Stone's film " Natural Born Killers " and/or go to Napster and

dig up the Butthole Surfers'classic " Pepper " .

This ain't news--except that it's Springtime in the land of Angst,

when suicides and acting out actually hit their peaks (no, it's not

Christmas or holidays--those have tended to be the valleys). Just

yesterday in our area here (the celebrated " Here in the Middle " of

McMurtry fame), two kids were busted in a plot to plant

explosives in the gymnasium of their semirural high school, take

their assistant principal hostage, use the PA to assemble all

students in the gym for their purported safety, and blow 'em all

into eternity . . . all this, it seems, to commemorate the

anniversary of Columbine--and, it would seem, to try to up the ante

from that one. To get the drift of that plot, revisit the best

black comedy of the 80s, " s " .

This may not be fresh, but it's far from simple.

R.

>

>

>

>

>

> In a message dated 17-Apr-06 13:03:24 Central Daylight Time,

> ExLngHrn@... writes:

>

> Just seemed too intriguing not to pass along.

>

> http://www.medpagetoday.com/Pediatrics/Parenting/tb/3098

>

> -Wes

>

>

>

>

> Actually, having read the paper (and I'll go ahead and register

to take the

> 'post test'...), I noticed two things...

>

> First, the 'self mutilation' of both the Goth and Punk

subcultures might

> better be classified as 'self decoration'...I've treated Goths,

and Punks and

> Cutters...and most of the Cutters I've treated have been neither

Goths nor

> Punks, but 'nice white' teen girls who had some other stressor in

their life that

> they were trying to make go away....

>

> Most of these girls could not, for what ever reason, express what

was wrong

> with their lives[1]...and many of them that I have seen came from

strongly

> religious backgrounds.

>

> Second, most of the kids who do " Go Goth " are already under stress

at

> school, and I suspect, feel more comfortable with other kids who

are under similar

> stress...you might notice that no one popular enough or athletic

enough to be

> a 'BMOC' or " PGOC " [2] ever goes Goth...or punk...

>

> Third: from the paper:

>

> <block quote>

> Even after adjusting for other known predictors such as being

female, having

> divorced or separated parents, smoking, drug use, and depression,

Goth

> identification remained the single strongest predictor of self-

harm or suicide

> attempt, the study found.

> </block quote>

>

> What is the ONE factor that they don't mention in their list of

adjustments?

> [3]

>

> Fourth: I suspect that we are seeing the Goth world through the

filters of

> an upper middle class Brit attitude...maybe Stephan could assist

in picking

> some more of the details out...

>

> ck

>

> S. Krin, DO FAAFP

>

> [1] Nonconsensual sexual activity...a fair number of the Cutters

that I have

> worked with in the past eventually admitted that they had been

subjected to

> non consensual sexual activity at or from a young age...

>

> [2] Big Man On Campus, AKA " JOCK " , Popular Gal On Campus, AKA

> " Cheerleader " ...

>

> [3] See #1 above...many of the popular kids are sexually active,

but it is

> much more 'consensual' than the cutters...or at least as

consensual as it can

> be when it involves a 250 pound football player and a 90 pound

cheerleader...

> ck

>

>

>

>

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Dr. Gist makes a point in the association with dates: Tomorrow is April 19th;

Branch ian siege ends (1993), Murrah building Terrorist Attack (OKC) in

1995. April 20th is the anniversary of the Columbine Massacre and Hitler's

birthday.

For all their alienation, the perpetrators cling to dates as a means of

validation and association.

Larry , RN LP

Houston Texas

" A prudent man foresees the difficulties ahead and prepares for them; the

simpleton goes blindly on and suffers the consequences. " Proverbs 22:3

---------------------------------

Talk is cheap. Use Yahoo! Messenger to make PC-to-Phone calls. Great rates

starting at 1 & cent;/min.

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FWIW, April 20 is the Columbine Massacre, Hitler's birthday--and my

mother's. Just a passing nod to Sigmund . . .

R.

>

> Dr. Gist makes a point in the association with dates: Tomorrow is

April 19th; Branch ian siege ends (1993), Murrah building

Terrorist Attack (OKC) in 1995. April 20th is the anniversary of the

Columbine Massacre and Hitler's birthday.

>

> For all their alienation, the perpetrators cling to dates as a

means of validation and association.

>

>

> Larry , RN LP

> Houston Texas

>

>

>

> " A prudent man foresees the difficulties ahead and prepares for

them; the simpleton goes blindly on and suffers the consequences. "

Proverbs 22:3

>

>

>

> ---------------------------------

> Talk is cheap. Use Yahoo! Messenger to make PC-to-Phone calls.

Great rates starting at 1 & cent;/min.

>

>

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Guest guest

My birthday too (April 20, 1955)!

Bledsoe

Re: Suicide study

FWIW, April 20 is the Columbine Massacre, Hitler's birthday--and my

mother's. Just a passing nod to Sigmund . . .

R.

>

> Dr. Gist makes a point in the association with dates: Tomorrow is

April 19th; Branch ian siege ends (1993), Murrah building

Terrorist Attack (OKC) in 1995. April 20th is the anniversary of the

Columbine Massacre and Hitler's birthday.

>

> For all their alienation, the perpetrators cling to dates as a

means of validation and association.

>

>

> Larry , RN LP

> Houston Texas

>

>

>

> " A prudent man foresees the difficulties ahead and prepares for

them; the simpleton goes blindly on and suffers the consequences. "

Proverbs 22:3

>

>

>

> ---------------------------------

> Talk is cheap. Use Yahoo! Messenger to make PC-to-Phone calls.

Great rates starting at 1 & cent;/min.

>

>

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Guest guest

So many questions suddenly become so clear!

R.

> >

> > Dr. Gist makes a point in the association with dates: Tomorrow

is

> April 19th; Branch ian siege ends (1993), Murrah building

> Terrorist Attack (OKC) in 1995. April 20th is the anniversary of

the

> Columbine Massacre and Hitler's birthday.

> >

> > For all their alienation, the perpetrators cling to dates as a

> means of validation and association.

> >

> >

> > Larry , RN LP

> > Houston Texas

> >

> >

> >

> > " A prudent man foresees the difficulties ahead and prepares for

> them; the simpleton goes blindly on and suffers the

consequences. "

> Proverbs 22:3

> >

> >

> >

> > ---------------------------------

> > Talk is cheap. Use Yahoo! Messenger to make PC-to-Phone calls.

> Great rates starting at 1 & cent;/min.

> >

> >

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Guest guest

Mine is today. (sometime after 1955 :-) )

Mark Hinson, RN, LP

T-System

________________________________

From: texasems-l [mailto:texasems-l ] On

Behalf Of Bledsoe, DO

Sent: Tuesday, April 18, 2006 1:52 PM

To: texasems-l

Subject: RE: Re: Suicide study

My birthday too (April 20, 1955)!

Bledsoe

Re: Suicide study

FWIW, April 20 is the Columbine Massacre, Hitler's birthday--and my

mother's. Just a passing nod to Sigmund . . .

R.

>

> Dr. Gist makes a point in the association with dates: Tomorrow is

April 19th; Branch ian siege ends (1993), Murrah building

Terrorist Attack (OKC) in 1995. April 20th is the anniversary of the

Columbine Massacre and Hitler's birthday.

>

> For all their alienation, the perpetrators cling to dates as a

means of validation and association.

>

>

> Larry , RN LP

> Houston Texas

>

>

>

> " A prudent man foresees the difficulties ahead and prepares for

them; the simpleton goes blindly on and suffers the consequences. "

Proverbs 22:3

>

>

>

> ---------------------------------

> Talk is cheap. Use Yahoo! Messenger to make PC-to-Phone calls.

Great rates starting at 1 & cent;/min.

>

>

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