Guest guest Posted April 3, 2006 Report Share Posted April 3, 2006 You won't find any EMS regulation about firearms on the ambulance. In Texas the applicable law for who may carry a weapon is found in the Penal Code and in Subchapter H of the Texas Government Code. A person who holds a concealed carry permit may carry a weapon on an ambulance unless the owner has posted a statutory notice that concealed handguns are not permitted. This notice is described in the Penal Code. Sworn law enforcement officers on duty may carry weapons into virtually any place. However, the civilian concealed carry permittee cannot carry in a place where the statutory posting has been done. Thus, an individual crew does not have the power to stop a person from carrying in the ambulance if (1) he is a sworn law enforcement officer on duty or (2) the holder of a concealed carry permit unless the ambulance owner has issued the required statutory notice that concealed weapons by concealed carry permittees will not be allowed. I can find no specific prohibition in Texas law relative to ambulances. Anybody else find something to the contrary? Gene G. > Here's a late night question.. What are the rules for carrying firearms on > the ambulance? Who may? Under what circumstances? Do we as EMS providers > have the ability to decline those not TCLEOSE certified from carrying > firearms on our unit? I've been looking at the TDH website, but I'm having trouble > searching and navigating. > > Thanks, > > Joe > > > --------------------------------- > Yahoo! Messenger with Voice. Make PC-to-Phone Calls to the US (and 30+ > countries) for 2¢/min or less. > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 3, 2006 Report Share Posted April 3, 2006 In a message dated 04-Apr-06 02:16:11 Central Daylight Time, wegandy1938@... writes: You won't find any EMS regulation about firearms on the ambulance. In Texas the applicable law for who may carry a weapon is found in the Penal Code and in Subchapter H of the Texas Government Code. A person who holds a concealed carry permit may carry a weapon on an ambulance unless the owner has posted a statutory notice that concealed handguns are not permitted. This notice is described in the Penal Code. Sworn law enforcement officers on duty may carry weapons into virtually any place. However, the civilian concealed carry permittee cannot carry in a place where the statutory posting has been done. Thus, an individual crew does not have the power to stop a person from carrying in the ambulance if (1) he is a sworn law enforcement officer on duty or (2) the holder of a concealed carry permit unless the ambulance owner has issued the required statutory notice that concealed weapons by concealed carry permittees will not be allowed. I can find no specific prohibition in Texas law relative to ambulances. Anybody else find something to the contrary? To the best of my knowledge, the situation in Louisiana is similar. I'm still researching the ramifications of the (relatively recent) laws in Missouri. ck S. Krin, DO FAAFP Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 4, 2006 Report Share Posted April 4, 2006 Here's a late night question.. What are the rules for carrying firearms on the ambulance? Who may? Under what circumstances? Do we as EMS providers have the ability to decline those not TCLEOSE certified from carrying firearms on our unit? I've been looking at the TDH website, but I'm having trouble searching and navigating. Thanks, Joe --------------------------------- Yahoo! Messenger with Voice. Make PC-to-Phone Calls to the US (and 30+ countries) for 2¢/min or less. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 4, 2006 Report Share Posted April 4, 2006 Hey Joe I no longer live in the area but had to deal with this when I did/ I would chk with some what up at Cypess Creek. They have t deal with this since they have the TAC medics. Hey who is running the system in TX city. I am an old Rural Metro Person . JUst a question. Mike B Joe Kiff wrote: Here's a late night question.. What are the rules for carrying firearms on the ambulance? Who may? Under what circumstances? Do we as EMS providers have the ability to decline those not TCLEOSE certified from carrying firearms on our unit? I've been looking at the TDH website, but I'm having trouble searching and navigating. Thanks, Joe --------------------------------- Yahoo! Messenger with Voice. Make PC-to-Phone Calls to the US (and 30+ countries) for 2¢/min or less. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 4, 2006 Report Share Posted April 4, 2006 Pretty close - the only other restriction is if the potential carrier is given direct, actual notice, which can be either verbal or written. There is the potential, however, for the arguement that a vehicle (regardless of ownership) is not property as defined by the statute. The holding law here isn't the UCW law, it's the criminal trespass law, which " triggers " the UCW law. Here's a quote from PC 30.06: For purposes of this section, a person receives notice if the owner of the property or someone with apparent authority to act for the owner provides notice to the person by oral or written communication. " Written communication " means a card or other document on which is written language identical to the following: " Pursuant to Section 30.06, Penal Code (trespass by holder of license to carry a concealed handgun), a person licensed under Subchapter H, Chapter 411, Government Code (concealed handgun law), may not enter this property with a concealed handgun " ; or a sign posted on the property [...] My personal advice? Employers who wish to restrict the carry of concealed handguns should manage this through their respective policy and procedure manuals. Simply make it policy that no weapons are carried on an ambulance other than those carried by peace officers, or something else reasonable - and make it apply to employees, riders, family members, etc. Mike > > In a message dated 04-Apr-06 02:16:11 Central Daylight Time, > wegandy1938@... writes: > > You won't find any EMS regulation about firearms on the ambulance. In > Texas > the applicable law for who may carry a weapon is found in the Penal Code and > in Subchapter H of the Texas Government Code. > > A person who holds a concealed carry permit may carry a weapon on an > ambulance unless the owner has posted a statutory notice that concealed > handguns are > not permitted. This notice is described in the Penal Code. > > Sworn law enforcement officers on duty may carry weapons into virtually any > place. However, the civilian concealed carry permittee cannot carry in a > place where the statutory posting has been done. Thus, an individual crew > does > not have the power to stop a person from carrying in the ambulance if (1) > he > is a sworn law enforcement officer on duty or (2) the holder of a concealed > carry permit unless the ambulance owner has issued the required statutory > notice > that concealed weapons by concealed carry permittees will not be allowed. > > I can find no specific prohibition in Texas law relative to ambulances. > Anybody else find something to the contrary? > > > > > To the best of my knowledge, the situation in Louisiana is similar. I'm > still researching the ramifications of the (relatively recent) laws in Missouri. > > ck > > S. Krin, DO FAAFP > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 4, 2006 Report Share Posted April 4, 2006 To further shmuck the waters. It is my understanding that ambulances owned by hospitals trigger EMTALA physician-screening requirements, in that the ambulance is in effect an extension of the hospital " property. " Yes I realize that EMTALA is a federal issue and weapons are a state issue, but if the hospital-owned ambulance is considered hospital property under EMTALA, could you not conceivably consider the same ambulance as hospital property under state law? If so, then Penal Code 46.035((4), which prohibits licensed concealed-carry on " premises of a hospital licensed under Chapter 241, Health and Safety Code " without written authorization, would thereby prohibit weapon possession on those ambulances. Just my humble thoughts... R Re: Firearms on a EMS Unit Pretty close - the only other restriction is if the potential carrier is given direct, actual notice, which can be either verbal or written. There is the potential, however, for the arguement that a vehicle (regardless of ownership) is not property as defined by the statute. The holding law here isn't the UCW law, it's the criminal trespass law, which " triggers " the UCW law. Here's a quote from PC 30.06: For purposes of this section, a person receives notice if the owner of the property or someone with apparent authority to act for the owner provides notice to the person by oral or written communication. " Written communication " means a card or other document on which is written language identical to the following: " Pursuant to Section 30.06, Penal Code (trespass by holder of license to carry a concealed handgun), a person licensed under Subchapter H, Chapter 411, Government Code (concealed handgun law), may not enter this property with a concealed handgun " ; or a sign posted on the property [...] My personal advice? Employers who wish to restrict the carry of concealed handguns should manage this through their respective policy and procedure manuals. Simply make it policy that no weapons are carried on an ambulance other than those carried by peace officers, or something else reasonable - and make it apply to employees, riders, family members, etc. Mike > > In a message dated 04-Apr-06 02:16:11 Central Daylight Time, > wegandy1938@... writes: > > You won't find any EMS regulation about firearms on the ambulance. In > Texas > the applicable law for who may carry a weapon is found in the Penal Code and > in Subchapter H of the Texas Government Code. > > A person who holds a concealed carry permit may carry a weapon on an > ambulance unless the owner has posted a statutory notice that concealed > handguns are > not permitted. This notice is described in the Penal Code. > > Sworn law enforcement officers on duty may carry weapons into virtually any > place. However, the civilian concealed carry permittee cannot carry in a > place where the statutory posting has been done. Thus, an individual crew > does > not have the power to stop a person from carrying in the ambulance if (1) > he > is a sworn law enforcement officer on duty or (2) the holder of a concealed > carry permit unless the ambulance owner has issued the required statutory > notice > that concealed weapons by concealed carry permittees will not be allowed. > > I can find no specific prohibition in Texas law relative to ambulances. > Anybody else find something to the contrary? > > > > > To the best of my knowledge, the situation in Louisiana is similar. I'm > still researching the ramifications of the (relatively recent) laws in Missouri. > > ck > > S. Krin, DO FAAFP > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 4, 2006 Report Share Posted April 4, 2006 They would be the hospital's personal property, not real property as contemplated under the Penal Code. While the EMTALA requirements create a legal fiction of the ambulance being hospital property, they do not override state law definitions of real and personal property. At the very least, I could never imagine any prosecutor who'd want to take the hair-splitting contemplated by EMTALA to the jury... -Wes Ogilvie, MPA, JD, EMT-B Austin, Texas Re: Firearms on a EMS Unit Pretty close - the only other restriction is if the potential carrier is given direct, actual notice, which can be either verbal or written. There is the potential, however, for the arguement that a vehicle (regardless of ownership) is not property as defined by the statute. The holding law here isn't the UCW law, it's the criminal trespass law, which " triggers " the UCW law. Here's a quote from PC 30.06: For purposes of this section, a person receives notice if the owner of the property or someone with apparent authority to act for the owner provides notice to the person by oral or written communication. " Written communication " means a card or other document on which is written language identical to the following: " Pursuant to Section 30.06, Penal Code (trespass by holder of license to carry a concealed handgun), a person licensed under Subchapter H, Chapter 411, Government Code (concealed handgun law), may not enter this property with a concealed handgun " ; or a sign posted on the property [...] My personal advice? Employers who wish to restrict the carry of concealed handguns should manage this through their respective policy and procedure manuals. Simply make it policy that no weapons are carried on an ambulance other than those carried by peace officers, or something else reasonable - and make it apply to employees, riders, family members, etc. Mike > > In a message dated 04-Apr-06 02:16:11 Central Daylight Time, > wegandy1938@... writes: > > You won't find any EMS regulation about firearms on the ambulance. In > Texas > the applicable law for who may carry a weapon is found in the Penal Code and > in Subchapter H of the Texas Government Code. > > A person who holds a concealed carry permit may carry a weapon on an > ambulance unless the owner has posted a statutory notice that concealed > handguns are > not permitted. This notice is described in the Penal Code. > > Sworn law enforcement officers on duty may carry weapons into virtually any > place. However, the civilian concealed carry permittee cannot carry in a > place where the statutory posting has been done. Thus, an individual crew > does > not have the power to stop a person from carrying in the ambulance if (1) > he > is a sworn law enforcement officer on duty or (2) the holder of a concealed > carry permit unless the ambulance owner has issued the required statutory > notice > that concealed weapons by concealed carry permittees will not be allowed. > > I can find no specific prohibition in Texas law relative to ambulances. > Anybody else find something to the contrary? > > > > > To the best of my knowledge, the situation in Louisiana is similar. I'm > still researching the ramifications of the (relatively recent) laws in Missouri. > > ck > > S. Krin, DO FAAFP > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 4, 2006 Report Share Posted April 4, 2006 > law? If so, then Penal Code 46.035((4), which prohibits licensed > concealed-carry on " premises of a hospital licensed under Chapter 241, > Health and Safety Code " without written authorization, would thereby > prohibit weapon possession on those ambulances. Only if posted. Read further and you'll see that hospitals, churches and amusement parks are only non-CHL if *properly* posted. Before anyone asks - many businesses will IMPROPERLY post to satisfy anti-gun customers, knowing full well that there's no REAL prohibition to carry because proper posting hasn't been made (a la the " no gun " circle/slash stickers you see everywhere). Mike Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 4, 2006 Report Share Posted April 4, 2006 I agree with most comments, but since it is a concealed handgun who is going to know you have it!! Would you rather be in a bad situation without it or with it? I cannot speak from personal experience, but If it was me I would rather be able to stand up in court and explain why i was carrying it rather than being dead because I did not have it. Most places require all employees to sign a weapons policy when hired so that eliminates most services. ExLngHrn@... wrote: They would be the hospital's personal property, not real property as contemplated under the Penal Code. While the EMTALA requirements create a legal fiction of the ambulance being hospital property, they do not override state law definitions of real and personal property. At the very least, I could never imagine any prosecutor who'd want to take the hair-splitting contemplated by EMTALA to the jury... -Wes Ogilvie, MPA, JD, EMT-B Austin, Texas Re: Firearms on a EMS Unit Pretty close - the only other restriction is if the potential carrier is given direct, actual notice, which can be either verbal or written. There is the potential, however, for the arguement that a vehicle (regardless of ownership) is not property as defined by the statute. The holding law here isn't the UCW law, it's the criminal trespass law, which " triggers " the UCW law. Here's a quote from PC 30.06: For purposes of this section, a person receives notice if the owner of the property or someone with apparent authority to act for the owner provides notice to the person by oral or written communication. " Written communication " means a card or other document on which is written language identical to the following: " Pursuant to Section 30.06, Penal Code (trespass by holder of license to carry a concealed handgun), a person licensed under Subchapter H, Chapter 411, Government Code (concealed handgun law), may not enter this property with a concealed handgun " ; or a sign posted on the property [...] My personal advice? Employers who wish to restrict the carry of concealed handguns should manage this through their respective policy and procedure manuals. Simply make it policy that no weapons are carried on an ambulance other than those carried by peace officers, or something else reasonable - and make it apply to employees, riders, family members, etc. Mike > > In a message dated 04-Apr-06 02:16:11 Central Daylight Time, > wegandy1938@... writes: > > You won't find any EMS regulation about firearms on the ambulance. In > Texas > the applicable law for who may carry a weapon is found in the Penal Code and > in Subchapter H of the Texas Government Code. > > A person who holds a concealed carry permit may carry a weapon on an > ambulance unless the owner has posted a statutory notice that concealed > handguns are > not permitted. This notice is described in the Penal Code. > > Sworn law enforcement officers on duty may carry weapons into virtually any > place. However, the civilian concealed carry permittee cannot carry in a > place where the statutory posting has been done. Thus, an individual crew > does > not have the power to stop a person from carrying in the ambulance if (1) > he > is a sworn law enforcement officer on duty or (2) the holder of a concealed > carry permit unless the ambulance owner has issued the required statutory > notice > that concealed weapons by concealed carry permittees will not be allowed. > > I can find no specific prohibition in Texas law relative to ambulances. > Anybody else find something to the contrary? > > > > > To the best of my knowledge, the situation in Louisiana is similar. I'm > still researching the ramifications of the (relatively recent) laws in Missouri. > > ck > > S. Krin, DO FAAFP > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 4, 2006 Report Share Posted April 4, 2006 ive alwsys wondered that also. is the back of an ambulance a " health care facility " ??? can CHL holders carry in a health care facilitiy? (like a hospital) jim davis Joe Kiff wrote: Here's a late night question.. What are the rules for carrying firearms on the ambulance? Who may? Under what circumstances? Do we as EMS providers have the ability to decline those not TCLEOSE certified from carrying firearms on our unit? I've been looking at the TDH website, but I'm having trouble searching and navigating. Thanks, Joe --------------------------------- Yahoo! Messenger with Voice. Make PC-to-Phone Calls to the US (and 30+ countries) for 2�/min or less. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 4, 2006 Report Share Posted April 4, 2006 The answer is no....I as CHL licensee, cannot carry in Federal buildings, Postal centers, hospitals, churches airports and other places so designated by the " Pursuant to 30.06 of the Texas Penal Code.... " . (And the gun with a circle and slash doesn't do it.) You also cannot carry in places that brings in 51% or more of it's profit from the sale of alcohol.(Bars) Carrying on an ambulance, as long as the company didn't have a policy against it, is legal. Again, the weapon is CONCEALED!!! If it were to be detected by someone else it is no longer concealed and you are now unlawfully carrying a weapon. The problem arises when you get to the ER/hospital. You'd have to leave the firearm in the unit, probably unattended. Not to mention the problems you'd run into if you had to disarm yourself in, say, a CPR situation. To carry a weapon on an ambulance is probably not a good idea but these days it is getting so that you almost have to carry for your own safety. For those of you that want to do so, a good fanny pack is the way to go. I carry a full size .40 cal and Wesson in a black fanny pack and it makes it easy to take off (1 hand operation) and put in a glove box should I need to disarm. The pack I have is a quick draw (< 2 seconds) and has pockets for extra mags, cuffs and pepper spray. People won't know whether you are carrying medical supplies or what. Jim Higginbotham EMT-B/ Dallas County OSEM james davis wrote: ive alwsys wondered that also. is the back of an ambulance a " health care facility " ??? can CHL holders carry in a health care facilitiy? (like a hospital) jim davis Joe Kiff wrote: Here's a late night question.. What are the rules for carrying firearms on the ambulance? Who may? Under what circumstances? Do we as EMS providers have the ability to decline those not TCLEOSE certified from carrying firearms on our unit? I've been looking at the TDH website, but I'm having trouble searching and navigating. Thanks, Joe --------------------------------- Yahoo! Messenger with Voice. Make PC-to-Phone Calls to the US (and 30+ countries) for 2�/min or less. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 4, 2006 Report Share Posted April 4, 2006 Speaking of the 51% mark- there are essentially 2 signs, one for “voluntary” prohibition of concealed carry, and the “mandatory” one, which shows the LARGE 51%, meant to indicate that the location generates >51% revenue from alcohol sales. There is not a separate sign for postal centers, churches, etc…. and I laugh each time I go to a hospital and I see the 51% sign. I often wonder if, in fact, the hospital is generating >51% revenue from alcohol sales, albeit indirectly…… R…… Re: Firearms on a EMS Unit The answer is no....I as CHL licensee, cannot carry in Federal buildings, Postal centers, hospitals, churches airports and other places so designated by the " Pursuant to 30.06 of the Texas Penal Code.... " . (And the gun with a circle and slash doesn't do it.) You also cannot carry in places that brings in 51% or more of it's profit from the sale of alcohol.(Bars) Carrying on an ambulance, as long as the company didn't have a policy against it, is legal. Again, the weapon is CONCEALED!!! If it were to be detected by someone else it is no longer concealed and you are now unlawfully carrying a weapon. The problem arises when you get to the ER/hospital. You'd have to leave the firearm in the unit, probably unattended. Not to mention the problems you'd run into if you had to disarm yourself in, say, a CPR situation. To carry a weapon on an ambulance is probably not a good idea but these days it is getting so that you almost have to carry for your own safety. For those of you that want to do so, a good fanny pack is the way to go. I carry a full size .40 cal and Wesson in a black fanny pack and it makes it easy to take off (1 hand operation) and put in a glove box should I need to disarm. The pack I have is a quick draw (< 2 seconds) and has pockets for extra mags, cuffs and pepper spray. People won't know whether you are carrying medical supplies or what. Jim Higginbotham EMT-B/ Dallas County OSEM james davis wrote: ive alwsys wondered that also. is the back of an ambulance a " health care facility " ??? can CHL holders carry in a health care facilitiy? (like a hospital) jim davis Joe Kiff wrote: Here's a late night question.. What are the rules for carrying firearms on the ambulance? Who may? Under what circumstances? Do we as EMS providers have the ability to decline those not TCLEOSE certified from carrying firearms on our unit? I've been looking at the TDH website, but I'm having trouble searching and navigating. Thanks, Joe --------------------------------- Yahoo! Messenger with Voice. Make PC-to-Phone Calls to the US (and 30+ countries) for 2�/min or less. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 13, 2006 Report Share Posted April 13, 2006 No an ambulance is not specificaly grouped with hospitals under CHL laws, the owner/HMFIC of the ambulance company gets to descide who may or may not carry on there equipment. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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