Guest guest Posted December 20, 2007 Report Share Posted December 20, 2007 According to the AAOS Sixth Edition - MCI is defined as: An emergency situation that can place great demand on the equipment or personnel of the EMS system or has the potential to overwhelm your available resources. We should all know and understand this type of situation. Lets trust the judgement of the paramedics that were on the scene and support them. > More from the " oopsie " incident. Looks like the SAFD PR efforts are improving, albeit slightly. > > -Wes Ogilvie, MPA, JD, LP > -Austin, Texas > >  > Controversy over woman left for dead > > Web Posted: 12/19/2007 01:02 AM CST > > Chasnoff and Lomi Kriel > Express-News > > The injury looked grave. > Part of the front-seat passenger's skull had caved in after a head- on collision on Loop 410. McLaughlin, a truck driver who said he witnessed the wreck and rushed to the aid of its victims, crouched beside the mangled Honda Accord and talked to the injured woman, 23- year-old a , until a police officer arrived. > > had been moaning, McLaughlin said. > > " I said, 'Sir, that girl in the front seat is messed up bad. She needs help,' " he recalled. > > Yet it was precisely that injury  coupled with an apparent lack of a pulse  that led paramedics to abandon , believing her dead, and instead rush two other victims with non-life- threatening injuries to Army Medical Center, Fire Chief Hood said on Tuesday. > > was actually alive  a detail discovered more than an hour later by a medical examiner's investigator called to the scene to examine her body. Paramedics again were called, and was taken to Army Medical Center, on Sunday, more than two hours after the early morning wreck. She died at the hospital Monday afternoon. > > The paramedics' decision to abandon in the wreckage in near freezing temperatures  compounded by Hood's refusal to apologize for the incident at a news conference Monday  has stoked outrage among some. Tuesday, in an interview with the Express- News editorial board, Hood said he regretted not saying he was " sorry for the family. " > > Although he conceded that Sunday's misdiagnosis " could possibly have been a mistake, " Hood defended the judgment of the four paramedics who abandoned after checking her pulse. Cold weather can mask vital signs, he said, and victims can continue breathing after they are brain dead. > > " The body is designed, basically, to function without a brain, " he said. " Bodies make noises, bodies move, bodies will sit up on you. > > Gordon, a professor of medicine at the University of Texas Health Science Center at San , said up to 60 percent of patients who gasp are not alive. Typically, he said, the gasp is the result of a spinal reflex. > > Hood and Gordon, who has authorized the standard medical operating procedure for the city's Fire Department for more than two decades, said medical privacy laws constrained them from detailing what exactly led paramedics to believe was dead. > > But Gordon said national standards prevent medical providers from resuscitating patients if they meet criteria classifying them as an " obvious death on arrival. " > > And on Tuesday, Hood said publicly for the first time that, " by all intents and purposes, (the paramedics) thought () was dead. " > > " She presented as deceased to them, " Hood said, adding that paramedics, " when they checked, she had no pulse. " > > According to the current operating procedure, which Gordon updated last year, patients fall into the category of " obvious death on arrival " if they have " no measurable vital signs, " such as a heart beat or pulse, and meet one of four criteria: rigor mortis; when the blood pools to the lowest level of gravity; decapitation, incineration or visual massive trauma; or if the body is decomposed. > > " Visual massive trauma " refers to injuries severe enough for a layperson to think they might cause death, such as " part of a V-6 engine sitting in the middle of your chest, " Gordon said. > > According to McLaughlin, suffered a major head injury. > > " I knew that if she didn't get help right away, she might not make it, " he said, adding, " My opinion, I think they should have paid more attention to her. " > > A police officer familiar with the incident said he told paramedics at least twice that was still breathing. > > " They kept telling everybody, 'No, she's not. ... She'll die in a few minutes,' " said the officer, who requested anonymity because he is not authorized to speak about the case. > > If there's any question about whether a patient meets the required criteria for resuscitation, paramedics are required to call their medical director for an opinion. Gordon, who is the medical director for the city's Fire Department, declined to say whether he was called in 's accident. > > But typically, he offers such opinions on a daily basis, he said. > > It is very rare for someone to be classified as an " obvious DOA " and then return to life, he said, but it has happened. Over the past 20 years, San has recorded two other such incidents, Hood said Tuesday. > > The four paramedics involved in Sunday's incident have been with the department for several years, with the least experienced having worked as a medic for nearly six years. Officials declined to release their names on Tuesday, but said the other three have served in their roles for six years, seven years and 12 years. None was disciplined for the incident and each is expected to return to work this week, Hood said. > > Still, the incident remains under investigation, he said, and will force the department to review its policies. > > " We need to figure out what to do to avoid this, " he said. " Customers in San need to have faith in their department. " > > was one of three people inside the Accord when a Pontiac G5 veered into an oncoming lane on Loop 410, striking the Accordshortly before 4 a.m. The driver of the Pontiac, Ann Ybarra, 28, was taken to a hospital after complaining of back pain. She has been charged with intoxication manslaughter and her bond set at $50,000. A jail official said she had posted bail, but was awaiting an ankle monitor so that she could be released. > > 's friends  Shaner, 22, the Accord's driver, and back seat passenger Amber , 22 suffered serious but non-life-threatening injuries. > > __________________________________________________________ > More new features than ever. Check out the new AOL Mail ! - http://webmail.aol.com <http://webmail.aol.com> > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 20, 2007 Report Share Posted December 20, 2007 A two vehicle collision with 4 total patients is not an MCI...they acted like they had 50 injuries and had to do a rapid triage and declare her " Expectant " which would be the right decision...it was not the right decision in a two vehicle collision..Bill Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 21, 2007 Report Share Posted December 21, 2007 Any incident in which there are more patients than the responding units can handle is an MCI. How many MICU's responded with how many medics? Dick Celina Fire Department At 10:16 PM 12/20/2007, you wrote: >A two vehicle collision with 4 total patients is not an MCI...they >acted like they had 50 injuries and had to do a rapid triage and >declare her " Expectant " which would be the right decision...it was >not the right decision in a two vehicle collision..Bill > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 22, 2007 Report Share Posted December 22, 2007 In a message dated 12/22/2007 12:58:23 P.M. Central Standard Time, kenneth.navarro@... writes: Have a (choose one) () Merry Christmas () Happy Chanukah () Krazy Kwanza () Terrific Tet () Inconspicious Id al-Adha () Super Solstice Kenny Navarro Dallas I don't care who you are that's funny Louis N. Molino, Sr., CET FF/NREMT-B/FSI/EMSI Owner and President of LNM Emergency Services Consulting Services (LNMECS) Freelance Consultant/Trainer/Author/Journalist/Fire Protection Consultant LNMolino@... (Cell Phone) (IFW/TFW/FSS Office) (IFW/TFW/FSS Fax) The comments contained in this E-mail are the opinions of the author and the author alone. I in no way ever intend to speak for any person or organization that I am in any way whatsoever involved or associated with unless I specifically state that I am doing so. Further this E-mail is intended only for its stated recipient and may contain private and or confidential materials retransmission is strictly prohibited unless placed in the public domain by the original author. **************************************See AOL's top rated recipes (http://food.aol.com/top-rated-recipes?NCID=aoltop00030000000004) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 22, 2007 Report Share Posted December 22, 2007 Man...this just keeps hanging on and hanging on...but I think I have a solution... Lets all meet at the Cowboy's parking lot at the corner if Loop 410 and IH-35 say Tuesday morning around 0900.? Everybody bring your pick-ups, clubs, pitchforks, and torches.? We will then depart from there and converge on the 4 or 5 fire stations that may have responded to this incident and just beat the living crap out of every DSHS certified personnel we can find....that will definitely solve the problem and prevent it from re-occurring...plus then we can all feel a little better about ourselves knowing we spent our Christmas solving a real problem for the EMS community. Geesh...I have never seen anyone out for blood like this in ages.? To everyone who is angry, upset and pissed off...WHAT do we need to do to help you get over this?? I have withheld posting on this topic up till now, but the the exception of Henry and a couple of others...this is getting a little out of control. In the last?7 days, how many people on here have done any or all of the following: 1.? Reviewed the protocols you work under to make sure you are intimately familiar with your agency's definition of obvious death, cessation of resuscitation, and MCI's? 2.? Discussed this call with other health care professionals in a constructive, NON-HINDSIGHT TEMPLE MOUNT position to not only talk about how this could have happened, but when faced with similar circumstance, how you can make sure it doesn't happen to you? 3.? Talked with your Medical Director about this incident to see his/her thoughts. 4.? Talked with an ED physician regarding the end of life and examples he/she may have where incidents surrounding the end of life?could happen in the ED and if seen by others, be totally misconstrued? 5.? Spent some quiet moments before drifting off to sleep reviewing many of the calls you have responded to where potentially questionable decisions were made in the blink of an eye that afterwards, in the dark recesses where we don't like to look, you secretly question whether or not the right decision was made. 6.? Run an MVC and made double sure you knew who and where all the patient's were...as well as their status? 7.? Received a report from a first responder and then double-checked and verified that what you had been told was true? 8.? Gave a report to your transport provider and then didn't get upset when they double checked what you had told them? This is not the first time this has happened...it won't be the last.? It does disturb me that the San area is the only area of the state or nation where mistakes occur.? I would like to hire some of the folks on this list to come into town and educate myself and my folks on how to obtain perfection in every high-pressure, no-looking back scenario we face on our multiple calls a day we respond to.? Because, I realize our agency is ONE call away from this or one very similar scenario...and when that occurs, I can't wait to have to face the hostile citizens, family members, media and potentially city officials...knowing that when I get home and pull up my AOL mail for some leisurely reading, I will get to read every second-guessing, hind-sight looking, slack-jawed yokel who wants to tell me how they would have done it better than my guys and wouldn't have made such horrendous mistakes that obviously only stupid, cro-magnon paramedics who didn't give a rat's butt about human beings would make. I mean, how did these imbecile paramedics?function prior to this call that day without us criticizing the way they played with the febrile baby to stop the crying, or worked their butt off resuscitating the elderly patient while their family sobbed in the living room, or held the old ladies hand while their partner tried desperately to get the IV into one of her spider veins so they could relieve her pain from the fractured hip...no, I am sure they came into the station 20 hours prior to this call just saying, man I can't wait for the 0300 call so we can leave some poor coed out in the cold to die...that will really make our day!!!! Really now...I would echo many of the other sane voices I have heard on this list over the last few days...back off, work YOUR calls to the best of YOUR ability, and make sure that you do everything possible to avoid getting your hind end in gun sights of those who like to second guess...because my 22+ years in this business have taught me one thing...if it hasn't happened yet, it surely could the next time the alarm rings.? Be safe and have a joyous Christmas!!! Dudley (Now that's a soapbox!) Re: Re: The latest from San .... okay okay... man I have heard something bad here... MCI...shem-ci. This is San Fire/EMS we are talking about here. A department with multiple resources and manpower that could have been brought to them with the simple press of a radio button, to assist in such event as an " MCI " . whether you want to define it as 2 or 4+patients. Yes, the definition of an MCI is " An emergency situation that can place great demand on the equipment or personnel of the EMS system or has the potential to overwhelm your available resources. " I could see this if it were in a rural community, out in the sticks somewhere, or in a city where the emergency medical services are somewhat slim pickens, San does not have this issue here. This department deals with accidents with 2 and more patients nearly every day, and as far as one discussion was saying is that they were short of manpower etc etc... San could have called for additional resources like they have in the past to other agencies if it was a tremendously bad " MCI " sorry, but I just can't tag this call as a true MCI, because this accident would not have " overwhelmed " the resources available to them. (besides that this accident took place at one of the lowest call times of the day. for just about any service. There is ABSOLUTELY no excuse for what took place. They made a bad judgement call, plain and simple. I'm sorry that this may tick a few people off, but I feel passionately about this. I have been in this field for a very long time, and even though you may not see it posted here, there are quite a few other people who feel the way I do. Granted, I do not have all the details about what happened, so I am going by what I have, and what I have, is what I am ranting against. I will step down now. must go take my bloodpressure meds now. A.Dempsey EMT-I/FF Supply/Maintenance Supervisor Acadian Ambulance Service Austin Texas, 78721 kdempseyjr@... office *pager* --------------------------------- Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 22, 2007 Report Share Posted December 22, 2007 AMEN, DUDLEY... marry christmas, ya'll ht THEDUDMAN@... wrote: Man...this just keeps hanging on and hanging on...but I think I have a solution... Lets all meet at the Cowboy's parking lot at the corner if Loop 410 and IH-35 say Tuesday morning around 0900.? Everybody bring your pick-ups, clubs, pitchforks, and torches.? We will then depart from there and converge on the 4 or 5 fire stations that may have responded to this incident and just beat the living crap out of every DSHS certified personnel we can find....that will definitely solve the problem and prevent it from re-occurring...plus then we can all feel a little better about ourselves knowing we spent our Christmas solving a real problem for the EMS community. Geesh...I have never seen anyone out for blood like this in ages.? To everyone who is angry, upset and pissed off...WHAT do we need to do to help you get over this?? I have withheld posting on this topic up till now, but the the exception of Henry and a couple of others...this is getting a little out of control. In the last?7 days, how many people on here have done any or all of the following: 1.? Reviewed the protocols you work under to make sure you are intimately familiar with your agency's definition of obvious death, cessation of resuscitation, and MCI's? 2.? Discussed this call with other health care professionals in a constructive, NON-HINDSIGHT TEMPLE MOUNT position to not only talk about how this could have happened, but when faced with similar circumstance, how you can make sure it doesn't happen to you? 3.? Talked with your Medical Director about this incident to see his/her thoughts. 4.? Talked with an ED physician regarding the end of life and examples he/she may have where incidents surrounding the end of life?could happen in the ED and if seen by others, be totally misconstrued? 5.? Spent some quiet moments before drifting off to sleep reviewing many of the calls you have responded to where potentially questionable decisions were made in the blink of an eye that afterwards, in the dark recesses where we don't like to look, you secretly question whether or not the right decision was made. 6.? Run an MVC and made double sure you knew who and where all the patient's were...as well as their status? 7.? Received a report from a first responder and then double-checked and verified that what you had been told was true? 8.? Gave a report to your transport provider and then didn't get upset when they double checked what you had told them? This is not the first time this has happened...it won't be the last.? It does disturb me that the San area is the only area of the state or nation where mistakes occur.? I would like to hire some of the folks on this list to come into town and educate myself and my folks on how to obtain perfection in every high-pressure, no-looking back scenario we face on our multiple calls a day we respond to.? Because, I realize our agency is ONE call away from this or one very similar scenario...and when that occurs, I can't wait to have to face the hostile citizens, family members, media and potentially city officials...knowing that when I get home and pull up my AOL mail for some leisurely reading, I will get to read every second-guessing, hind-sight looking, slack-jawed yokel who wants to tell me how they would have done it better than my guys and wouldn't have made such horrendous mistakes that obviously only stupid, cro-magnon paramedics who didn't give a rat's butt about human beings would make. I mean, how did these imbecile paramedics?function prior to this call that day without us criticizing the way they played with the febrile baby to stop the crying, or worked their butt off resuscitating the elderly patient while their family sobbed in the living room, or held the old ladies hand while their partner tried desperately to get the IV into one of her spider veins so they could relieve her pain from the fractured hip...no, I am sure they came into the station 20 hours prior to this call just saying, man I can't wait for the 0300 call so we can leave some poor coed out in the cold to die...that will really make our day!!!! Really now...I would echo many of the other sane voices I have heard on this list over the last few days...back off, work YOUR calls to the best of YOUR ability, and make sure that you do everything possible to avoid getting your hind end in gun sights of those who like to second guess...because my 22+ years in this business have taught me one thing...if it hasn't happened yet, it surely could the next time the alarm rings.? Be safe and have a joyous Christmas!!! Dudley (Now that's a soapbox!) Re: Re: The latest from San .... okay okay... man I have heard something bad here... MCI...shem-ci. This is San Fire/EMS we are talking about here. A department with multiple resources and manpower that could have been brought to them with the simple press of a radio button, to assist in such event as an " MCI " . whether you want to define it as 2 or 4+patients. Yes, the definition of an MCI is " An emergency situation that can place great demand on the equipment or personnel of the EMS system or has the potential to overwhelm your available resources. " I could see this if it were in a rural community, out in the sticks somewhere, or in a city where the emergency medical services are somewhat slim pickens, San does not have this issue here. This department deals with accidents with 2 and more patients nearly every day, and as far as one discussion was saying is that they were short of manpower etc etc... San could have called for additional resources like they have in the past to other agencies if it was a tremendously bad " MCI " sorry, but I just can't tag this call as a true MCI, because this accident would not have " overwhelmed " the resources available to them. (besides that this accident took place at one of the lowest call times of the day. for just about any service. There is ABSOLUTELY no excuse for what took place. They made a bad judgement call, plain and simple. I'm sorry that this may tick a few people off, but I feel passionately about this. I have been in this field for a very long time, and even though you may not see it posted here, there are quite a few other people who feel the way I do. Granted, I do not have all the details about what happened, so I am going by what I have, and what I have, is what I am ranting against. I will step down now. must go take my bloodpressure meds now. A.Dempsey EMT-I/FF Supply/Maintenance Supervisor Acadian Ambulance Service Austin Texas, 78721 kdempseyjr@... office *pager* --------------------------------- Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 22, 2007 Report Share Posted December 22, 2007 >>> . . . when I get home and pull up my AOL mail for some leisurely reading, I will get to read every second-guessing, hind-sight looking, slack-jawed yokel who wants to tell me how they would have done it better . . . <<< Dudley, now you are just insulting slack-jawed yokels! >>> (Now that's a soapbox!) <<< I'm impressed! Have a (choose one) () Merry Christmas () Happy Chanukah () Krazy Kwanza () Terrific Tet () Inconspicious Id al-Adha () Super Solstice Kenny Navarro Dallas Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 22, 2007 Report Share Posted December 22, 2007 Finally someone who has expressed the thoughts of many. You know Dudley the interesting thing about all this is that the charge has been led by two attorneys and an ex TDH regional guy....can anyone say " Due Process " >>> 12/22/07 11:45 AM >>> Man...this just keeps hanging on and hanging on...but I think I have a solution... Lets all meet at the Cowboy's parking lot at the corner if Loop 410 and IH-35 say Tuesday morning around 0900.? Everybody bring your pick-ups, clubs, pitchforks, and torches.? We will then depart from there and converge on the 4 or 5 fire stations that may have responded to this incident and just beat the living crap out of every DSHS certified personnel we can find....that will definitely solve the problem and prevent it from re-occurring...plus then we can all feel a little better about ourselves knowing we spent our Christmas solving a real problem for the EMS community. Geesh...I have never seen anyone out for blood like this in ages.? To everyone who is angry, upset and pissed off...WHAT do we need to do to help you get over this?? I have withheld posting on this topic up till now, but the the exception of Henry and a couple of others...this is getting a little out of control. In the last?7 days, how many people on here have done any or all of the following: 1.? Reviewed the protocols you work under to make sure you are intimately familiar with your agency's definition of obvious death, cessation of resuscitation, and MCI's? 2.? Discussed this call with other health care professionals in a constructive, NON-HINDSIGHT TEMPLE MOUNT position to not only talk about how this could have happened, but when faced with similar circumstance, how you can make sure it doesn't happen to you? 3.? Talked with your Medical Director about this incident to see his/her thoughts. 4.? Talked with an ED physician regarding the end of life and examples he/she may have where incidents surrounding the end of life?could happen in the ED and if seen by others, be totally misconstrued? 5.? Spent some quiet moments before drifting off to sleep reviewing many of the calls you have responded to where potentially questionable decisions were made in the blink of an eye that afterwards, in the dark recesses where we don't like to look, you secretly question whether or not the right decision was made. 6.? Run an MVC and made double sure you knew who and where all the patient's were...as well as their status? 7.? Received a report from a first responder and then double-checked and verified that what you had been told was true? 8.? Gave a report to your transport provider and then didn't get upset when they double checked what you had told them? This is not the first time this has happened...it won't be the last.? It does disturb me that the San area is the only area of the state or nation where mistakes occur.? I would like to hire some of the folks on this list to come into town and educate myself and my folks on how to obtain perfection in every high-pressure, no-looking back scenario we face on our multiple calls a day we respond to.? Because, I realize our agency is ONE call away from this or one very similar scenario...and when that occurs, I can't wait to have to face the hostile citizens, family members, media and potentially city officials...knowing that when I get home and pull up my AOL mail for some leisurely reading, I will get to read every second-guessing, hind-sight looking, slack-jawed yokel who wants to tell me how they would have done it better than my guys and wouldn't have made such horrendous mistakes that obviously only stupid, cro-magnon paramedics who didn't give a rat's butt about hu man beings would make. I mean, how did these imbecile paramedics?function prior to this call that day without us criticizing the way they played with the febrile baby to stop the crying, or worked their butt off resuscitating the elderly patient while their family sobbed in the living room, or held the old ladies hand while their partner tried desperately to get the IV into one of her spider veins so they could relieve her pain from the fractured hip...no, I am sure they came into the station 20 hours prior to this call just saying, man I can't wait for the 0300 call so we can leave some poor coed out in the cold to die...that will really make our day!!!! Really now...I would echo many of the other sane voices I have heard on this list over the last few days...back off, work YOUR calls to the best of YOUR ability, and make sure that you do everything possible to avoid getting your hind end in gun sights of those who like to second guess...because my 22+ years in this business have taught me one thing...if it hasn't happened yet, it surely could the next time the alarm rings.? Be safe and have a joyous Christmas!!! Dudley (Now that's a soapbox!) Re: Re: The latest from San .... okay okay... man I have heard something bad here... MCI...shem-ci. This is San Fire/EMS we are talking about here. A department with multiple resources and manpower that could have been brought to them with the simple press of a radio button, to assist in such event as an " MCI " . whether you want to define it as 2 or 4+patients. Yes, the definition of an MCI is " An emergency situation that can place great demand on the equipment or personnel of the EMS system or has the potential to overwhelm your available resources. " I could see this if it were in a rural community, out in the sticks somewhere, or in a city where the emergency medical services are somewhat slim pickens, San does not have this issue here. This department deals with accidents with 2 and more patients nearly every day, and as far as one discussion was saying is that they were short of manpower etc etc... San could have called for additional resources like they have in the past to other agencies if it was a tremendously bad " MCI " sorry, but I just can't tag this call as a true MCI, because this accident would not have " overwhelmed " the resources available to them. (besides that this accident took place at one of the lowest call times of the day. for just about any service. There is ABSOLUTELY no excuse for what took place. They made a bad judgement call, plain and simple. I'm sorry that this may tick a few people off, but I feel passionately about this. I have been in this field for a very long time, and even though you may not see it posted here, there are quite a few other people who feel the way I do. Granted, I do not have all the details about what happened, so I am going by what I have, and what I have, is what I am ranting against. I will step down now. must go take my bloodpressure meds now. A.Dempsey EMT-I/FF Supply/Maintenance Supervisor Acadian Ambulance Service Austin Texas, 78721 kdempseyjr@... office *pager* --------------------------------- Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 26, 2007 Report Share Posted December 26, 2007 Dudley, Couldn't have said it better myself, and lord knows I tried! Rick ________________________________ From: texasems-l [mailto:texasems-l ] On Behalf Of Rinard Sent: Saturday, December 22, 2007 3:11 PM To: texasems-l Subject: Re: Re: The latest from San .... Finally someone who has expressed the thoughts of many. You know Dudley the interesting thing about all this is that the charge has been led by two attorneys and an ex TDH regional guy....can anyone say " Due Process " >>> <THEDUDMAN@... <mailto:THEDUDMAN%40aol.com> > 12/22/07 11:45 AM >>> Man...this just keeps hanging on and hanging on...but I think I have a solution... Lets all meet at the Cowboy's parking lot at the corner if Loop 410 and IH-35 say Tuesday morning around 0900.? Everybody bring your pick-ups, clubs, pitchforks, and torches.? We will then depart from there and converge on the 4 or 5 fire stations that may have responded to this incident and just beat the living crap out of every DSHS certified personnel we can find....that will definitely solve the problem and prevent it from re-occurring...plus then we can all feel a little better about ourselves knowing we spent our Christmas solving a real problem for the EMS community. Geesh...I have never seen anyone out for blood like this in ages.? To everyone who is angry, upset and pissed off...WHAT do we need to do to help you get over this?? I have withheld posting on this topic up till now, but the the exception of Henry and a couple of others...this is getting a little out of control. In the last?7 days, how many people on here have done any or all of the following: 1.? Reviewed the protocols you work under to make sure you are intimately familiar with your agency's definition of obvious death, cessation of resuscitation, and MCI's? 2.? Discussed this call with other health care professionals in a constructive, NON-HINDSIGHT TEMPLE MOUNT position to not only talk about how this could have happened, but when faced with similar circumstance, how you can make sure it doesn't happen to you? 3.? Talked with your Medical Director about this incident to see his/her thoughts. 4.? Talked with an ED physician regarding the end of life and examples he/she may have where incidents surrounding the end of life?could happen in the ED and if seen by others, be totally misconstrued? 5.? Spent some quiet moments before drifting off to sleep reviewing many of the calls you have responded to where potentially questionable decisions were made in the blink of an eye that afterwards, in the dark recesses where we don't like to look, you secretly question whether or not the right decision was made. 6.? Run an MVC and made double sure you knew who and where all the patient's were...as well as their status? 7.? Received a report from a first responder and then double-checked and verified that what you had been told was true? 8.? Gave a report to your transport provider and then didn't get upset when they double checked what you had told them? This is not the first time this has happened...it won't be the last.? It does disturb me that the San area is the only area of the state or nation where mistakes occur.? I would like to hire some of the folks on this list to come into town and educate myself and my folks on how to obtain perfection in every high-pressure, no-looking back scenario we face on our multiple calls a day we respond to.? Because, I realize our agency is ONE call away from this or one very similar scenario...and when that occurs, I can't wait to have to face the hostile citizens, family members, media and potentially city officials...knowing that when I get home and pull up my AOL mail for some leisurely reading, I will get to read every second-guessing, hind-sight looking, slack-jawed yokel who wants to tell me how they would have done it better than my guys and wouldn't have made such horrendous mistakes that obviously only stupid, cro-magnon paramedics who didn't give a rat's butt about hu man beings would make. I mean, how did these imbecile paramedics?function prior to this call that day without us criticizing the way they played with the febrile baby to stop the crying, or worked their butt off resuscitating the elderly patient while their family sobbed in the living room, or held the old ladies hand while their partner tried desperately to get the IV into one of her spider veins so they could relieve her pain from the fractured hip...no, I am sure they came into the station 20 hours prior to this call just saying, man I can't wait for the 0300 call so we can leave some poor coed out in the cold to die...that will really make our day!!!! Really now...I would echo many of the other sane voices I have heard on this list over the last few days...back off, work YOUR calls to the best of YOUR ability, and make sure that you do everything possible to avoid getting your hind end in gun sights of those who like to second guess...because my 22+ years in this business have taught me one thing...if it hasn't happened yet, it surely could the next time the alarm rings.? Be safe and have a joyous Christmas!!! Dudley (Now that's a soapbox!) Re: Re: The latest from San .... okay okay... man I have heard something bad here... MCI...shem-ci. This is San Fire/EMS we are talking about here. A department with multiple resources and manpower that could have been brought to them with the simple press of a radio button, to assist in such event as an " MCI " . whether you want to define it as 2 or 4+patients. Yes, the definition of an MCI is " An emergency situation that can place great demand on the equipment or personnel of the EMS system or has the potential to overwhelm your available resources. " I could see this if it were in a rural community, out in the sticks somewhere, or in a city where the emergency medical services are somewhat slim pickens, San does not have this issue here. This department deals with accidents with 2 and more patients nearly every day, and as far as one discussion was saying is that they were short of manpower etc etc... San could have called for additional resources like they have in the past to other agencies if it was a tremendously bad " MCI " sorry, but I just can't tag this call as a true MCI, because this accident would not have " overwhelmed " the resources available to them. (besides that this accident took place at one of the lowest call times of the day. for just about any service. There is ABSOLUTELY no excuse for what took place. They made a bad judgement call, plain and simple. I'm sorry that this may tick a few people off, but I feel passionately about this. I have been in this field for a very long time, and even though you may not see it posted here, there are quite a few other people who feel the way I do. Granted, I do not have all the details about what happened, so I am going by what I have, and what I have, is what I am ranting against. I will step down now. must go take my bloodpressure meds now. A.Dempsey EMT-I/FF Supply/Maintenance Supervisor Acadian Ambulance Service Austin Texas, 78721 kdempseyjr@... <mailto:kdempseyjr%40yahoo.com> office *pager* --------------------------------- Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 26, 2007 Report Share Posted December 26, 2007 Well, I can tell you book and page about due process. I do happen to understand it. Been there, done that, got the T, the gimmie cap, the pen, the notepad, plaque, and the mug, and the tattoo, long before most of y'all were even aware of what the term meant. Yes, I'm OLD. I took the course in law school, and I have read the cases. I have litigated due process. I have been a champion for due process all my life. I KNOW what due process is, and I fiercely advocate for it. We're generally expressing OPINION on this list. Last I heard, we don't have the power to convict, discipline, or sanction anybody. We do have the power to discuss things that happen and talk about whether or not they're good or bad. We try to learn from things that happen. Apparently few actually read what I write. If you'll review my emails on this subject, I made a point of saying that we oughtn't place blame until the investigation is complete. I also recommended an independent investigation from both DSHS and form the IAFC. Then I stated, in an OPINION, that whatever happened, it's ultimately a management/medical director problem, and those are the folks that ought to be held responsible, not the poor medics who are the ones who will probably get the blame if there is any. Now, we've got the same folks who were quick to pillory me for my opinions about the SA incident wanting to pillory the folks who forgot to tell everybody that the " helo down " call was a training exercise. Heh. Shit happens, doesn't it? Well, let's remember that what we read in the papers ain't necessarily so. And let's remember that REAL PEOPLE LIKE US make the mistakes that we condemn. How more direct can I be than that? The real problems are not connected with things that well meaning, overworked, unappreciated, and sometimes clueless troops do. The real problems arise from the non-systems that we have in EMS, from the terrible lapses in management that allow these incidents to happen, and our failures to cure the sores that we have. When something goes wrong, we want to convict the troops, but we seldom ask just who it was that allowed the troops to make the mistakes that they made, who ignored the signs that the troops were not up to the challenges, who had the power to make the changes, but who played the political games to make themselves look good while throwing the field troops to the lions. And we also fail to ask what the salaries are of the " suits " versus the " troops. " Why do the " suits " make 6 times what a medic makes? (I'm talking about the private services here, of course.) Well, maybe sometimes not. I would say that in the situation of the botched " helo down " exercise, the responsibility lies at the very top of the heap. How often does the guy or gal at the top get the licks? Not often, friends. I say again. The San incident is a failure of command. At what level remains to be seen. But it is a failure of command. At the administrative level, which may be as low as a Lieutenant, or a Captain, or a Batt Chief, or maybe higher. The question that's not asked often enough is this: What's the responsibility of the off-line medical director for incidents like this? This question WILL be asked in court one day. The answer will depend upon a number of issues. I'll attempt to list some of them here, but others will undoubtedly have their additions to the list. 1. How much POWER does the off-line medical director actually have to influence behaviours in the field? If he cannot take a medic off the rig because of union or civil service rules, then what good it he? 2. How much POWER does the off-line medical director actually have to deal with incidents in the field that resulted in " unfortunate patient outcomes. " Most medical directors lack actual power. Most of them serve under a contract that was written by somebody they don't know, a contract that they have never had a lawyer interpret, and one that probably makes them liable for a lot of stuff they oughtn't be liable for. 3. How involved in everyday operations is the off-line medical director? Does she or he ever make scene calls? Is she or he accessible to field medics by cellular or radio? 4. How liable is the off-line medical director for the mistakes that are made by the troops she or he supposedly supervises? 5. Is it reasonable to think that a medical director should do something to get to know the people she or he supervises? To actually talk to them? To listen to their questions about protocols? To answer those questions and to do the research necessary to answer those questions? 6. Is it reasonable to think that a service's medical director would be an advocate for EMS, would be actively involved in understanding and improving EMS? In the USA, some states are more liberal than others in allowing physicians to delegate practices to medics. In the states who allow liberal physician delegation, how liable is the physician for the actions of his or her medics? IN the states with rigid SOPs, could the state and its' EMS regulators be held liable for failure to adopt an intervention that might be proved as standard of care elsewhere? Sooner or later some lawyer will figure out that that person can be challenged. So get ready for it. And lastly, and this is meant to be tongue in cheek, who in his or her right mind would become an EMS medical director? Gene G. > > Dudley, > Couldn't have said it better myself, and lord knows I tried! > Rick > > ____________ ________ ________ _ > > From: texasems-l@yahoogrotexasem [mailto:texasems-l@yahoogrotexasem] On > Behalf Of Rinard > Sent: Saturday, December 22, 2007 3:11 PM > To: texasems-l@yahoogrotexasem > Subject: Re: Re: The latest from San .... > > Finally someone who has expressed the thoughts of many. You know Dudley > the interesting thing about all this is that the charge has been led by > two attorneys and an ex TDH regional guy....can anyone say " Due Process " > > > >>> <THEDUDMAN@... <mailto:THEDUDMAN%mailto:TH> > 12/22/07 11:45 AM > >>> > > Man...this just keeps hanging on and hanging on...but I think I have a > solution... > > Lets all meet at the Cowboy's parking lot at the corner if Loop 410 and > IH-35 say Tuesday morning around 0900.? Everybody bring your pick-ups, > clubs, pitchforks, and torches.? We will then depart from there and > converge on the 4 or 5 fire stations that may have responded to this > incident and just beat the living crap out of every DSHS certified > personnel we can find....that will definitely solve the problem and > prevent it from re-occurring. prevent it from re-occurring.<wbr>..plus t > about ourselves knowing we spent our Christmas solving a real problem > for the EMS community. > > Geesh...I have never seen anyone out for blood like this in ages.? To > everyone who is angry, upset and pissed off...WHAT do we need to do to > help you get over this?? I have withheld posting on this topic up till > now, but the the exception of Henry and a couple of others...this is > getting a little out of control. > > In the last?7 days, how many people on here have done any or all of the > following: > 1.? Reviewed the protocols you work under to make sure you are > intimately familiar with your agency's definition of obvious death, > cessation of resuscitation, and MCI's? > 2.? Discussed this call with other health care professionals in a > constructive, NON-HINDSIGHT TEMPLE MOUNT position to not only talk about > how this could have happened, but when faced with similar circumstance, > how you can make sure it doesn't happen to you? > 3.? Talked with your Medical Director about this incident to see his/her > thoughts. > 4.? Talked with an ED physician regarding the end of life and examples > he/she may have where incidents surrounding the end of life?could happen > in the ED and if seen by others, be totally misconstrued? > 5.? Spent some quiet moments before drifting off to sleep reviewing many > of the calls you have responded to where potentially questionable > decisions were made in the blink of an eye that afterwards, in the dark > recesses where we don't like to look, you secretly question whether or > not the right decision was made. > 6.? Run an MVC and made double sure you knew who and where all the > patient's were...as well as their status? > 7.? Received a report from a first responder and then double-checked and > verified that what you had been told was true? > 8.? Gave a report to your transport provider and then didn't get upset > when they double checked what you had told them? > > This is not the first time this has happened...it won't be the last.? It > does disturb me that the San area is the only area of the state > or nation where mistakes occur.? I would like to hire some of the folks > on this list to come into town and educate myself and my folks on how to > obtain perfection in every high-pressure, no-looking back scenario we > face on our multiple calls a day we respond to.? Because, I realize our > agency is ONE call away from this or one very similar scenario...and > when that occurs, I can't wait to have to face the hostile citizens, > family members, media and potentially city officials... family members, > I get home and pull up my AOL mail for some leisurely reading, I will > get to read every second-guessing, hind-sight looking, slack-jawed yokel > who wants to tell me how they would have done it better than my guys and > wouldn't have made such horrendous mistakes that obviously only stupid, > cro-magnon paramedics who didn't give a rat's butt about hu > man beings would make. > > I mean, how did these imbecile paramedics?function prior to this call > that day without us criticizing the way they played with the febrile > baby to stop the crying, or worked their butt off resuscitating the > elderly patient while their family sobbed in the living room, or held > the old ladies hand while their partner tried desperately to get the IV > into one of her spider veins so they could relieve her pain from the > fractured hip...no, I am sure they came into the station 20 hours prior > to this call just saying, man I can't wait for the 0300 call so we can > leave some poor coed out in the cold to die...that will really make our > day!!!! > > Really now...I would echo many of the other sane voices I have heard on > this list over the last few days...back off, work YOUR calls to the best > of YOUR ability, and make sure that you do everything possible to avoid > getting your hind end in gun sights of those who like to second > guess...because my 22+ years in this business have taught me one > thing...if it hasn't happened yet, it surely could the next time the > alarm rings.? > > Be safe and have a joyous Christmas!!! > > Dudley > (Now that's a soapbox!) > > Re: Re: The latest from San .... > > okay okay... man I have heard something bad here... MCI...shem-ci. This > is San Fire/EMS we are talking about here. A department with > multiple resources and manpower that could have been brought to them > with the simple press of a radio button, to assist in such event as an > " MCI " . whether you want to define it as 2 or 4+patients. Yes, the > definition of an MCI is > > " An emergency situation that can place great demand on the equipment or > personnel of the EMS system or has the potential to overwhelm your > available resources. " > > I could see this if it were in a rural community, out in the sticks > somewhere, or in a city where the emergency medical services are > somewhat slim pickens, San does not have this issue here. This > department deals with accidents with 2 and more patients nearly every > day, and as far as one discussion was saying is that they were short of > manpower etc etc... San could have called for additional > resources like they have in the past to other agencies if it was a > tremendously bad " MCI " sorry, but I just can't tag this call as a true > MCI, because this accident would not have " overwhelmed " the resources > available to them. (besides that this accident took place at one of the > lowest call times of the day. for just about any service. There is > ABSOLUTELY no excuse for what took place. They made a bad judgement > call, plain and simple. > > I'm sorry that this may tick a few people off, but I feel passionately > about this. I have been in this field for a very long time, and even > though you may not see it posted here, there are quite a few other > people who feel the way I do. Granted, I do not have all the details > about what happened, so I am going by what I have, and what I have, is > what I am ranting against. > I will step down now. must go take my bloodpressure meds now. > > A.Dempsey EMT-I/FF > Supply/Maintenance Supervisor > Acadian Ambulance Service > Austin Texas, 78721 > kdempseyjr@... <mailto:kdempseyjr%mailto:kdem> > office > *pager* > > ------------ -------- -------- -- > Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage. > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 27, 2007 Report Share Posted December 27, 2007 So just how do you feel about due process Gene? (tongue in cheek of course) Louis N. Molino, Sr., CET FF/NREMT-B/FSI/EMSI Owner and President of LNM Emergency Services Consulting Services (LNMECS) Freelance Consultant/Trainer/Author/Journalist/Fire Protection Consultant LNMolino@... (Cell Phone) (IFW/TFW/FSS Office) (IFW/TFW/FSS Fax) The comments contained in this E-mail are the opinions of the author and the author alone. I in no way ever intend to speak for any person or organization that I am in any way whatsoever involved or associated with unless I specifically state that I am doing so. Further this E-mail is intended only for its stated recipient and may contain private and or confidential materials retransmission is strictly prohibited unless placed in the public domain by the original author. **************************************See AOL's top rated recipes (http://food.aol.com/top-rated-recipes?NCID=aoltop00030000000004) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 27, 2007 Report Share Posted December 27, 2007 In a message dated 12/27/2007 10:48:48 A.M. Central Standard Time, ExLngHrn@... writes: Should medical directors be required to have operational training in EMS, particularly if they're making scene responses? Well from an anecdotal perspective and in my OPINION the ones that do tend to make the better Medical Directors both from the Providers and the Administrators standpoint having been on both sides of that fence. When they understand both the clinical and operational capabilities of the Service that they are working with then they tend to do a better job. Louis N. Molino, Sr., CET FF/NREMT-B/FSI/EMSI Owner and President of LNM Emergency Services Consulting Services (LNMECS) Freelance Consultant/Trainer/Author/Journalist/Fire Protection Consultant LNMolino@... (Cell Phone) (IFW/TFW/FSS Office) (IFW/TFW/FSS Fax) The comments contained in this E-mail are the opinions of the author and the author alone. I in no way ever intend to speak for any person or organization that I am in any way whatsoever involved or associated with unless I specifically state that I am doing so. Further this E-mail is intended only for its stated recipient and may contain private and or confidential materials retransmission is strictly prohibited unless placed in the public domain by the original author. **************************************See AOL's top rated recipes (http://food.aol.com/top-rated-recipes?NCID=aoltop00030000000004) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 27, 2007 Report Share Posted December 27, 2007 Gene, Well said------- KUDOS to you, sir ! wegandy1938@... wrote: Well, I can tell you book and page about due process. I do happen to understand it. Been there, done that, got the T, the gimmie cap, the pen, the notepad, plaque, and the mug, and the tattoo, long before most of y'all were even aware of what the term meant. Yes, I'm OLD. I took the course in law school, and I have read the cases. I have litigated due process. I have been a champion for due process all my life. I KNOW what due process is, and I fiercely advocate for it. We're generally expressing OPINION on this list. Last I heard, we don't have the power to convict, discipline, or sanction anybody. We do have the power to discuss things that happen and talk about whether or not they're good or bad. We try to learn from things that happen. Apparently few actually read what I write. If you'll review my emails on this subject, I made a point of saying that we oughtn't place blame until the investigation is complete. I also recommended an independent investigation from both DSHS and form the IAFC. Then I stated, in an OPINION, that whatever happened, it's ultimately a management/medical director problem, and those are the folks that ought to be held responsible, not the poor medics who are the ones who will probably get the blame if there is any. Now, we've got the same folks who were quick to pillory me for my opinions about the SA incident wanting to pillory the folks who forgot to tell everybody that the " helo down " call was a training exercise. Heh. Shit happens, doesn't it? Well, let's remember that what we read in the papers ain't necessarily so. And let's remember that REAL PEOPLE LIKE US make the mistakes that we condemn. How more direct can I be than that? The real problems are not connected with things that well meaning, overworked, unappreciated, and sometimes clueless troops do. The real problems arise from the non-systems that we have in EMS, from the terrible lapses in management that allow these incidents to happen, and our failures to cure the sores that we have. When something goes wrong, we want to convict the troops, but we seldom ask just who it was that allowed the troops to make the mistakes that they made, who ignored the signs that the troops were not up to the challenges, who had the power to make the changes, but who played the political games to make themselves look good while throwing the field troops to the lions. And we also fail to ask what the salaries are of the " suits " versus the " troops. " Why do the " suits " make 6 times what a medic makes? (I'm talking about the private services here, of course.) Well, maybe sometimes not. I would say that in the situation of the botched " helo down " exercise, the responsibility lies at the very top of the heap. How often does the guy or gal at the top get the licks? Not often, friends. I say again. The San incident is a failure of command. At what level remains to be seen. But it is a failure of command. At the administrative level, which may be as low as a Lieutenant, or a Captain, or a Batt Chief, or maybe higher. The question that's not asked often enough is this: What's the responsibility of the off-line medical director for incidents like this? This question WILL be asked in court one day. The answer will depend upon a number of issues. I'll attempt to list some of them here, but others will undoubtedly have their additions to the list. 1. How much POWER does the off-line medical director actually have to influence behaviours in the field? If he cannot take a medic off the rig because of union or civil service rules, then what good it he? 2. How much POWER does the off-line medical director actually have to deal with incidents in the field that resulted in " unfortunate patient outcomes. " Most medical directors lack actual power. Most of them serve under a contract that was written by somebody they don't know, a contract that they have never had a lawyer interpret, and one that probably makes them liable for a lot of stuff they oughtn't be liable for. 3. How involved in everyday operations is the off-line medical director? Does she or he ever make scene calls? Is she or he accessible to field medics by cellular or radio? 4. How liable is the off-line medical director for the mistakes that are made by the troops she or he supposedly supervises? 5. Is it reasonable to think that a medical director should do something to get to know the people she or he supervises? To actually talk to them? To listen to their questions about protocols? To answer those questions and to do the research necessary to answer those questions? 6. Is it reasonable to think that a service's medical director would be an advocate for EMS, would be actively involved in understanding and improving EMS? In the USA, some states are more liberal than others in allowing physicians to delegate practices to medics. In the states who allow liberal physician delegation, how liable is the physician for the actions of his or her medics? IN the states with rigid SOPs, could the state and its' EMS regulators be held liable for failure to adopt an intervention that might be proved as standard of care elsewhere? Sooner or later some lawyer will figure out that that person can be challenged. So get ready for it. And lastly, and this is meant to be tongue in cheek, who in his or her right mind would become an EMS medical director? Gene G. > > Dudley, > Couldn't have said it better myself, and lord knows I tried! > Rick > > ____________ ________ ________ _ > > From: texasems-l@yahoogrotexasem [mailto:texasems-l@yahoogrotexasem] On > Behalf Of Rinard > Sent: Saturday, December 22, 2007 3:11 PM > To: texasems-l@yahoogrotexasem > Subject: Re: Re: The latest from San .... > > Finally someone who has expressed the thoughts of many. You know Dudley > the interesting thing about all this is that the charge has been led by > two attorneys and an ex TDH regional guy....can anyone say " Due Process " > > > >>> <THEDUDMAN@... <mailto:THEDUDMAN%mailto:TH> > 12/22/07 11:45 AM > >>> > > Man...this just keeps hanging on and hanging on...but I think I have a > solution... > > Lets all meet at the Cowboy's parking lot at the corner if Loop 410 and > IH-35 say Tuesday morning around 0900.? Everybody bring your pick-ups, > clubs, pitchforks, and torches.? We will then depart from there and > converge on the 4 or 5 fire stations that may have responded to this > incident and just beat the living crap out of every DSHS certified > personnel we can find....that will definitely solve the problem and > prevent it from re-occurring. prevent it from re-occurring.<wbr>..plus t > about ourselves knowing we spent our Christmas solving a real problem > for the EMS community. > > Geesh...I have never seen anyone out for blood like this in ages.? To > everyone who is angry, upset and pissed off...WHAT do we need to do to > help you get over this?? I have withheld posting on this topic up till > now, but the the exception of Henry and a couple of others...this is > getting a little out of control. > > In the last?7 days, how many people on here have done any or all of the > following: > 1.? Reviewed the protocols you work under to make sure you are > intimately familiar with your agency's definition of obvious death, > cessation of resuscitation, and MCI's? > 2.? Discussed this call with other health care professionals in a > constructive, NON-HINDSIGHT TEMPLE MOUNT position to not only talk about > how this could have happened, but when faced with similar circumstance, > how you can make sure it doesn't happen to you? > 3.? Talked with your Medical Director about this incident to see his/her > thoughts. > 4.? Talked with an ED physician regarding the end of life and examples > he/she may have where incidents surrounding the end of life?could happen > in the ED and if seen by others, be totally misconstrued? > 5.? Spent some quiet moments before drifting off to sleep reviewing many > of the calls you have responded to where potentially questionable > decisions were made in the blink of an eye that afterwards, in the dark > recesses where we don't like to look, you secretly question whether or > not the right decision was made. > 6.? Run an MVC and made double sure you knew who and where all the > patient's were...as well as their status? > 7.? Received a report from a first responder and then double-checked and > verified that what you had been told was true? > 8.? Gave a report to your transport provider and then didn't get upset > when they double checked what you had told them? > > This is not the first time this has happened...it won't be the last.? It > does disturb me that the San area is the only area of the state > or nation where mistakes occur.? I would like to hire some of the folks > on this list to come into town and educate myself and my folks on how to > obtain perfection in every high-pressure, no-looking back scenario we > face on our multiple calls a day we respond to.? Because, I realize our > agency is ONE call away from this or one very similar scenario...and > when that occurs, I can't wait to have to face the hostile citizens, > family members, media and potentially city officials... family members, > I get home and pull up my AOL mail for some leisurely reading, I will > get to read every second-guessing, hind-sight looking, slack-jawed yokel > who wants to tell me how they would have done it better than my guys and > wouldn't have made such horrendous mistakes that obviously only stupid, > cro-magnon paramedics who didn't give a rat's butt about hu > man beings would make. > > I mean, how did these imbecile paramedics?function prior to this call > that day without us criticizing the way they played with the febrile > baby to stop the crying, or worked their butt off resuscitating the > elderly patient while their family sobbed in the living room, or held > the old ladies hand while their partner tried desperately to get the IV > into one of her spider veins so they could relieve her pain from the > fractured hip...no, I am sure they came into the station 20 hours prior > to this call just saying, man I can't wait for the 0300 call so we can > leave some poor coed out in the cold to die...that will really make our > day!!!! > > Really now...I would echo many of the other sane voices I have heard on > this list over the last few days...back off, work YOUR calls to the best > of YOUR ability, and make sure that you do everything possible to avoid > getting your hind end in gun sights of those who like to second > guess...because my 22+ years in this business have taught me one > thing...if it hasn't happened yet, it surely could the next time the > alarm rings.? > > Be safe and have a joyous Christmas!!! > > Dudley > (Now that's a soapbox!) > > Re: Re: The latest from San .... > > okay okay... man I have heard something bad here... MCI...shem-ci. This > is San Fire/EMS we are talking about here. A department with > multiple resources and manpower that could have been brought to them > with the simple press of a radio button, to assist in such event as an > " MCI " . whether you want to define it as 2 or 4+patients. Yes, the > definition of an MCI is > > " An emergency situation that can place great demand on the equipment or > personnel of the EMS system or has the potential to overwhelm your > available resources. " > > I could see this if it were in a rural community, out in the sticks > somewhere, or in a city where the emergency medical services are > somewhat slim pickens, San does not have this issue here. This > department deals with accidents with 2 and more patients nearly every > day, and as far as one discussion was saying is that they were short of > manpower etc etc... San could have called for additional > resources like they have in the past to other agencies if it was a > tremendously bad " MCI " sorry, but I just can't tag this call as a true > MCI, because this accident would not have " overwhelmed " the resources > available to them. (besides that this accident took place at one of the > lowest call times of the day. for just about any service. There is > ABSOLUTELY no excuse for what took place. They made a bad judgement > call, plain and simple. > > I'm sorry that this may tick a few people off, but I feel passionately > about this. I have been in this field for a very long time, and even > though you may not see it posted here, there are quite a few other > people who feel the way I do. Granted, I do not have all the details > about what happened, so I am going by what I have, and what I have, is > what I am ranting against. > I will step down now. must go take my bloodpressure meds now. > > A.Dempsey EMT-I/FF > Supply/Maintenance Supervisor > Acadian Ambulance Service > Austin Texas, 78721 > kdempseyjr@... <mailto:kdempseyjr%mailto:kdem> > office > *pager* > > ------------ -------- -------- -- > Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage. > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 27, 2007 Report Share Posted December 27, 2007 Let me try to redirect the conversation here... How many medical directors are actively involved in their EMS systems?? What level of involvement is appropriate?? Should medical directors be required to have operational training in EMS, particularly if they're making scene responses? -Wes Ogilvie, MPA, JD, LP -Attorney/Licensed Paramedic -Austin, Texas Re: Re: The latest from San .... > > okay okay... man I have heard something bad here... MCI...shem-ci. This > is San Fire/EMS we are talking about here. A department with > multiple resources and manpower that could have been brought to them > with the simple press of a radio button, to assist in such event as an > " MCI " . whether you want to define it as 2 or 4+patients. Yes, the > definition of an MCI is > > " An emergency situation that can place great demand on the equipment or > personnel of the EMS system or has the potential to overwhelm your > available resources. " > > I could see this if it were in a rural community, out in the sticks > somewhere, or in a city where the emergency medical services are > somewhat slim pickens, San does not have this issue here. This > department deals with accidents with 2 and more patients nearly every > day, and as far as one discussion was saying is that they were short of > manpower etc etc... San could have called for additional > resources like they have in the past to other agencies if it was a > tremendously bad " MCI " sorry, but I just can't tag this call as a true > MCI, because this accident would not have " overwhelmed " the resources > available to them. (besides that this accident took place at one of the > lowest call times of the day. for just about any service. There is > ABSOLUTELY no excuse for what took place. They made a bad judgement > call, plain and simple. > > I'm sorry that this may tick a few people off, but I feel passionately > about this. I have been in this field for a very long time, and even > though you may not see it posted here, there are quite a few other > people who feel the way I do. Granted, I do not have all the details > about what happened, so I am going by what I have, and what I have, is > what I am ranting against. > I will step down now. must go take my bloodpressure meds now. > > A.Dempsey EMT-I/FF > Supply/Maintenance Supervisor > Acadian Ambulance Service > Austin Texas, 78721 > kdempseyjr@... <mailto:kdempseyjr%mailto:kdem>; > office > *pager* > > ------------ -------- -------- -- > Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage. > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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