FRO Question

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 12/10/2007 3:50:42 P.M. Central Standard Time,

hbarber@... writes:

I was told then that you did not have to be certified to put Oxygen on a

patient.

OK I'll bite,

What is the contraindication for O2 on a emergent patient (or for that

matter a non emergent patient?) or to put another way, when and why would you

deny

emergency oxygen to a Patient?

Louis N. Molino, Sr., CET

FF/NREMT-B/FSI/EMSI

Owner and President of LNM Emergency Services Consulting Services (LNMECS)

Freelance Consultant/Trainer/Author/Journalist/Fire Protection Consultant

LNMolino@...

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(IFW/TFW/FSS Office)

(IFW/TFW/FSS Fax)

The comments contained in this E-mail are the opinions of the author and the

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I

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[Guest guest]

In a message dated 12/11/2007 4:17:08 P.M. Central Standard Time,

ExLngHrn@... writes:

Paraquat poisoning.

-Wes

OK Ya got me on that one!

You #%%$$^%$%$

Louis N. Molino, Sr., CET

FF/NREMT-B/FSI/EMSI

Owner and President of LNM Emergency Services Consulting Services (LNMECS)

Freelance Consultant/Trainer/Author/Journalist/Fire Protection Consultant

LNMolino@...

(Cell Phone)

(IFW/TFW/FSS Office)

(IFW/TFW/FSS Fax)

The comments contained in this E-mail are the opinions of the author and the

author alone. I in no way ever intend to speak for any person or

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I

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[Guest guest]

In a message dated 11-Dec-07 16:11:55 Central Standard Time,

lnmolino@... writes:

In a message dated 12/10/2007 3:50:42 P.M. Central Standard Time,

_hbarber@..._ (mailto:hbarber@...) writes:

I was told then that you did not have to be certified to put Oxygen on a

patient.

OK I'll bite,

What is the contraindication for O2 on a emergent patient (or for that

matter a non emergent patient?) or to put another way, when and why would

you deny

emergency oxygen to a Patient?

Wes has already chimed in with Paraquat (something that I've not seen for

the better part of 20 years)...

I can think of ONLY one ABSOLUTE contraindication for oxygen therapy...and

Paraquat ain't it...

ck

S. Krin, DO FAAFP

**************************************See AOL's top rated recipes

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[Guest guest]

,

I agree with you to a point. The biggest stumbling block is their own

organization. They often refuse to move forward in the training. I found

watching such dedicated men and women who have the ability to do so much more

frustrating. Often, even with free training these departments have no desire to

change what they do or how they do it. So why not use some " legal " channels to

encourage them to move forward instead of stagnating?

Tom & Marsha LeNeveu

Paramedic, Future RN; & RN

Fort Worth Texas

Email: TomMarshaLeNeveu@...

yahoo Group: Christian_Medic

Re: FRO Question

Gentlemen,

Sorry, but I'm gonna have to disagree with you on this one with an

explaination.

If a volunteer department is wanting an FRO designation with all the

perks and grant opprotunities that come with and applies, then they

should follow all the regs and rules. No argument there. But, if

you have a volunteer department, especially in a rual setting, that

is working with an EMS system to better thier area, receive training

(regardless of certification or not) through that system and

responds to administer care to that level, why in the world are we

wanting to place regulations on a department who is trying to help

within their means?

All I have heard over the past few months on this list is how to

regulate and administer rules. I agree in certain situations, that

should be, but when you need FROs, registered or not, do you really

think the patient cares if their card is up to date or not? Yes,

all should have trianing and be keep up to date with the EMS system

they are assisting, but you start issuing regulations and rules at

some of these departments that we have tried to foster a

relationship with, who did not want anything to do with EMS because

of lack of knowledge or misinformation, then we will go back to a

greater than 30 minute pt contact and care (in some areas of my

county, more than that.)

Yes, any department that wants to assist should have training by the

EMS system serving that area. They should be encouraged to further

their training and move to certification, but I will take a handfull

of ranchers and farmers with come-a-londs and prybars with Red Cross

First Aid Training that want to help and have the common sense than

some of the metropolitan departments crews.(For the record, I work

for one of those departments) .

There is no greater harm than the harm caused by death. Lets not

bind these departments that are trying to reach out with chains that

will cause them to withdraw out of the pre-hospital care system and

cause EMS to suffer a step back in the name of regulation.

With Soap Box in hand,

L.

Colorado Conty EMS

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[Guest guest]

In a message dated 12/11/2007 6:09:54 P.M. Central Standard Time,

krin135@... writes:

I can think of ONLY one ABSOLUTE contraindication for oxygen therapy...and

Paraquat ain't it...

and it is???????????????????????????

Louis N. Molino, Sr., CET

FF/NREMT-B/FSI/EMSI

Owner and President of LNM Emergency Services Consulting Services (LNMECS)

Freelance Consultant/Trainer/Author/Journalist/Fire Protection Consultant

LNMolino@...

(Cell Phone)

(IFW/TFW/FSS Office)

(IFW/TFW/FSS Fax)

The comments contained in this E-mail are the opinions of the author and the

author alone. I in no way ever intend to speak for any person or

organization that I am in any way whatsoever involved or associated with unless

I

specifically state that I am doing so. Further this E-mail is intended only for

its

stated recipient and may contain private and or confidential materials

retransmission is strictly prohibited unless placed in the public domain by the

original author.

**************************************See AOL's top rated recipes

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[Guest guest]

In a message dated 12/11/2007 7:00:41 P.M. Central Standard Time,

Grayson902@... writes:

Uuuhhhh, the patient is still on fire?

I was thinking more of a CLINCA NATURE.

Louis N. Molino, Sr., CET

FF/NREMT-B/FSI/EMSI

Owner and President of LNM Emergency Services Consulting Services (LNMECS)

Freelance Consultant/Trainer/Author/Journalist/Fire Protection Consultant

LNMolino@...

(Cell Phone)

(IFW/TFW/FSS Office)

(IFW/TFW/FSS Fax)

The comments contained in this E-mail are the opinions of the author and the

author alone. I in no way ever intend to speak for any person or

organization that I am in any way whatsoever involved or associated with unless

I

specifically state that I am doing so. Further this E-mail is intended only for

its

stated recipient and may contain private and or confidential materials

retransmission is strictly prohibited unless placed in the public domain by the

original author.

**************************************See AOL's top rated recipes

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[Guest guest]

In a message dated 11-Dec-07 18:48:41 Central Standard Time,

lnmolino@... writes:

In a message dated 12/11/2007 6:09:54 P.M. Central Standard Time,

_krin135@..._ (mailto:krin135@...) writes:

I can think of ONLY one ABSOLUTE contraindication for oxygen therapy...and

Paraquat ain't it...

and it is??????????and it and it

waiting to see if anyone else answers...

Lou, I promise that you will kick yourself for not thinking of it...

ck

S. Krin, DO FAAFP

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[Guest guest]

In a message dated 11-Dec-07 18:59:56 Central Standard Time,

Grayson902@... writes:

>>I can think of ONLY one ABSOLUTE contraindication for oxygen therapy...and

Paraquat ain't it...

and it is??????????and it and it <<

Uuuhhhh, the patient is still on fire?

Ding Ding Ding Ding....

Give Mr. Grayson a fresh bag of Cheetos and a new DVD...I'd recommend the

one from the ITLS course...

ck

S. Krin, DO FAAFP

**************************************See AOL's top rated recipes

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[Guest guest]

In a message dated 11-Dec-07 19:20:53 Central Standard Time,

lnmolino@... writes:

In a message dated 12/11/2007 7:00:41 P.M. Central Standard Time,

_Grayson902@..._ (mailto:Grayson902@...) writes:

Uuuhhhh, the patient is still on fire?

I was thinking more of a CLINCA NATURE.

every CLINICAL contra indication that I can think of are relative

contraindications...

Including the problems involving the pressure/time curves relating to acute

and chronic lung toxicities.

ck

S. Krin, DO FAAFP

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[Guest guest]

Henry & others,

I'm not against FRO's certified or not, as they do play an important role in

the EMS chain. However, it's my feeling that they should be certified. EMS has

raised all kinds of cain over gurney cars & the fact that they are not certified

and providing pt care. So, if we can regulate them, why not FRO's? Not over

regulate, but regulate just as we have gurney cars.

Wayne

Henry Barber wrote:

, Wes

It is not about rules per se. Its about the first responder who chooses to be a

loose cannon out there. He They can still be a loose cannon and have good

intentions. My point was that even if we wanted to, we as the responding agency

have no control over the registered first responder or the non registered if

they choose to go off the reservation. I agree and it mostly works well here

that first responders are a valuable asset. One that chooses to go off and do

their own thing while thumbing their nose at the transport agency that is

responsible for the patient, is of no value to the patient or the cause they are

serving. We are beginning to see our few volunteer transport agencies drop back

to first responder status. In the future we will see more first responders. They

still must work within the system.

Henry

Re: FRO Question

Gentlemen,

Sorry, but I'm gonna have to disagree with you on this one with an

explaination.

If a volunteer department is wanting an FRO designation with all the

perks and grant opprotunities that come with and applies, then they

should follow all the regs and rules. No argument there. But, if

you have a volunteer department, especially in a rual setting, that

is working with an EMS system to better thier area, receive training

(regardless of certification or not) through that system and

responds to administer care to that level, why in the world are we

wanting to place regulations on a department who is trying to help

within their means?

All I have heard over the past few months on this list is how to

regulate and administer rules. I agree in certain situations, that

should be, but when you need FROs, registered or not, do you really

think the patient cares if their card is up to date or not? Yes,

all should have trianing and be keep up to date with the EMS system

they are assisting, but you start issuing regulations and rules at

some of these departments that we have tried to foster a

relationship with, who did not want anything to do with EMS because

of lack of knowledge or misinformation, then we will go back to a

greater than 30 minute pt contact and care (in some areas of my

county, more than that.)

Yes, any department that wants to assist should have training by the

EMS system serving that area. They should be encouraged to further

their training and move to certification, but I will take a handfull

of ranchers and farmers with come-a-londs and prybars with Red Cross

First Aid Training that want to help and have the common sense than

some of the metropolitan departments crews.(For the record, I work

for one of those departments).

There is no greater harm than the harm caused by death. Lets not

bind these departments that are trying to reach out with chains that

will cause them to withdraw out of the pre-hospital care system and

cause EMS to suffer a step back in the name of regulation.

With Soap Box in hand,

L.

Colorado Conty EMS

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PM

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 12/11/2007 7:26:21 P.M. Central Standard Time,

krin135@... writes:

Lou, I promise that you will kick yourself for not thinking of it...

Yes you are right, good thing I like kicking myself.

Louis N. Molino, Sr., CET

FF/NREMT-B/FSI/EMSI

Owner and President of LNM Emergency Services Consulting Services (LNMECS)

Freelance Consultant/Trainer/Author/Journalist/Fire Protection Consultant

LNMolino@...

(Cell Phone)

(IFW/TFW/FSS Office)

(IFW/TFW/FSS Fax)

The comments contained in this E-mail are the opinions of the author and the

author alone. I in no way ever intend to speak for any person or

organization that I am in any way whatsoever involved or associated with unless

I

specifically state that I am doing so. Further this E-mail is intended only for

its

stated recipient and may contain private and or confidential materials

retransmission is strictly prohibited unless placed in the public domain by the

original author.

**************************************See AOL's top rated recipes

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[Guest guest]

Your making a fool of yourself again Wayne. I'm not even on GETAC and I

know the first responder law changed last year. Maxi just told us about

the gurney law last month.

--

>

> Henry & others,

>

> I'm not against FRO's certified or not, as they do play an

important role in the EMS chain. However, it's my feeling that they

should be certified. EMS has raised all kinds of cain over gurney cars

& the fact that they are not certified and providing pt care. So, if

we can regulate them, why not FRO's? Not over regulate, but regulate

just as we have gurney cars.

>

> Wayne

[Guest guest]

I'm aware of the change in the FRO rule, KAREN and are aware of what was

changed.

simple_emt wrote: Your making a fool of yourself

again Wayne. I'm not even on GETAC and I

know the first responder law changed last year. Maxi just told us about

the gurney law last month.

--

>

> Henry & others,

>

> I'm not against FRO's certified or not, as they do play an

important role in the EMS chain. However, it's my feeling that they

should be certified. EMS has raised all kinds of cain over gurney cars

& the fact that they are not certified and providing pt care. So, if

we can regulate them, why not FRO's? Not over regulate, but regulate

just as we have gurney cars.

>

> Wayne

---------------------------------

Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage.

[Guest guest]

I know CPR. Can I help?

GG

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[Guest guest]

>>I can think of ONLY one ABSOLUTE contraindication for oxygen therapy...and

Paraquat ain't it...

and it is???????????????????????????<<

Uuuhhhh, the patient is still on fire?

--

Grayson, CCEMT-P, etc.

MEDIC Training Solutions

http://www.medictrainingsolutions.com/

[Guest guest]

Don't know if this is what doc was talking about but this is a contraindication

for oxygen therapy...jules

[indications and contraindications for oxygen therapy of respiratory

insufficiency]

[Article in Bulgarian]

Patarinski D.?

Oxygen treatment is contraindicated in all patients

with unfavourable ventilation response to oxygen treatment. In case of

non-effective O2 treatment (unfavourable ventilation response resp.)

mechanical ventilation must be turned to as well as in all cases with

patients in respiratory coma.

PMID: 1007238 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

Re: FRO Question

In a message dated 12/11/2007 6:09:54 P.M. Central Standard Time,

krin135@... writes:

I can think of ONLY one ABSOLUTE contraindication for oxygen therapy...and

Paraquat ain't it...

and it is??????????

?????????????????

Louis N. Molino, Sr., CET

FF/NREMT-B/FSI/

EMSI

Owner and President of LNM Emergency Services Consulting Services (LNMECS)

Freelance Consultant/Trainer/Author/Journalist/Fire Protection Consultant

LNMolino@...

(Cell Phone)

(IFW/TFW/FSS Office)

(IFW/TFW/FSS Fax)

The comments contained in this E-mail are the opinions of the author and the

author alone. I in no way ever intend to speak for any person or

organization that I am in any way whatsoever involved or associated with unless

I

specifically state that I am doing so. Further this E-mail is intended only for

its

stated recipient and may contain private and or confidential materials

retransmission is strictly prohibited unless placed in the public domain by the

original author.

************

**************************See AOL's top rated recipes

(http://food.aol.com/top-rated-recipes?NCID=aoltop00030000000004)

[Guest guest]

Oxygen therapy may become another EMS myth for certain conditions.

Resuscitation. <javascript:AL_get(this,%20'jour',%20'Resuscitation.');>

2007 Nov 16 [Epub ahead of print]

<http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/utils/fref.fcgi?PrId=3048 & itool=Abstract

Plus-def & uid=18022751 & db=pubmed & url=http://linkinghub.elsevier.com/retrieve/

pii/S0300-9572(07)00493-5> Click here to read Links

<javascript:PopUpMenu2_Set(Menu18022751);>

The systemic, pulmonary and regional hemodynamic recovery of asphyxiated

newborn piglets resuscitated with 18%, 21% and 100% oxygen.

<http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sites/entrez?Db=pubmed & Cmd=Search & Term=%22Cheun

g%20PY%22%5BAuthor%5D & itool=EntrezSystem2.PEntrez.Pubmed.Pubmed_ResultsPanel

..Pubmed_RVAbstractPlus> Cheung PY,

<http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sites/entrez?Db=pubmed & Cmd=Search & Term=%22s

on%20ST%22%5BAuthor%5D & itool=EntrezSystem2.PEntrez.Pubmed.Pubmed_ResultsPane

l.Pubmed_RVAbstractPlus> ST,

<http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sites/entrez?Db=pubmed & Cmd=Search & Term=%22Obaid

%20L%22%5BAuthor%5D & itool=EntrezSystem2.PEntrez.Pubmed.Pubmed_ResultsPanel.P

ubmed_RVAbstractPlus> Obaid L,

<http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sites/entrez?Db=pubmed & Cmd=Search & Term=%22Chan%

20GS%22%5BAuthor%5D & itool=EntrezSystem2.PEntrez.Pubmed.Pubmed_ResultsPanel.P

ubmed_RVAbstractPlus> Chan GS,

<http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sites/entrez?Db=pubmed & Cmd=Search & Term=%22Bigam

%20DL%22%5BAuthor%5D & itool=EntrezSystem2.PEntrez.Pubmed.Pubmed_ResultsPanel.

Pubmed_RVAbstractPlus> Bigam DL.

Department of Pediatrics, University of Alberta, Edmonton, Alberta, Canada;

Department of Pharmacology, University of Alberta, Edmonton, Alberta,

Canada.

OBJECTIVES: The increase in oxidative stress following neonatal

hypoxia-reoxygenation can be related to subsequent cardiovascular deficits.

We compared the acute systemic, pulmonary and regional hemodynamic recovery

in hypoxic newborn pigs reoxygenated by low (18%) or high (100%)

concentration of oxygen with that by 21% oxygen. STUDY DESIGN: Pigs (1-3

days, 1.5-2.5kg) were acutely instrumented to continuously measure pulmonary

artery flow (surrogate for cardiac index), mean and pulmonary artery

pressures, common carotid, superior mesenteric and renal artery flow

indices. After 1h of normocapnic alveolar hypoxia (8-10% oxygen), animals

were randomized to receive 18%, 21% or 100% oxygen for 1h then 21% oxygen

for 3h (n=7 per group). Sham-operated pigs (n=6) had no

hypoxia-reoxygenation. RESULTS: Severe hypoxia caused significant

compromises in systemic and regional hemodynamics and oxygen delivery (vs.

shams). Despite reoxygenation, mean arterial pressure remained significantly

lower than that of shams with no difference among hypoxic-reoxygenated

groups. There was an oxygen-dependent recovery of pulmonary artery pressure.

Cardiac index improved with reoxygenation but deteriorated over time in the

100% group. Both 18% and 100% groups had lower systemic oxygen delivery.

Regional flows and oxygen delivery in all hypoxic-reoxygenated piglets were

similarly reduced in all groups. CONCLUSIONS: In this swine model of

neonatal hypoxia-reoxygenation, resuscitation with 18% and 100% oxygen

results in differential compromises in systemic and pulmonary circulations

when compared with 21% oxygen.

[Guest guest]

_TITLE 25_

(http://info.sos.state.tx.us/pls/pub/readtac$ext.ViewTAC?tac_view=2 & ti=25)

HEALTH SERVICES _PART 1_

(http://info.sos.state.tx.us/pls/pub/readtac$ext.ViewTAC?tac_view=3 & ti=25 & pt=1)

DEPARTMENT OF STATE HEALTH

SERVICES _CHAPTER 157_

(http://info.sos.state.tx.us/pls/pub/readtac$ext.ViewTAC?tac_view=4 & ti=25 & pt=1 & c\

h=157) EMERGENCY MEDICAL CARE _SUBCHAPTER B_

(http://info.sos.state.tx.us/pls/pub/readtac$ext.ViewTAC?tac_view=5 & ti=25 & pt=1 & c\

h=157 & sch=B

& rl=Y) EMERGENCY MEDICAL SERVICES PROVIDER LICENSES RULE §157.14

Requirements for a First Responder Organization License

a) A First Responder Organization (FRO) is a group or association of

certified emergency medical services personnel that works in cooperation with a

licensed emergency medical services provider to:

<NO>(1) routinely respond to medical emergency situation

<NO>utilize personnel who are emergency medical services (EMS) certified by

the Texas Department of State Health Services (department); and

<NO>(3) provide on-scene patient care to the ill and injured and does not

transport patien

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[Guest guest]

§423.1 - Minimum Standards for Structure Fire Protection Personnel

(§423.1 is the first rule in Chapter 423.)

Next rule: _423.3 - Minimum Standards for Basic Structure Fire Protection

Personnel Certification_

(http://www.tcfp.state.tx.us/standards/standards_manual/standards_manual.asp?rul\

e=423.3)

1. Fire protection personnel of any local government entity, who

receive probationary or temporary appointment to structure fire protection

duties,

must be certified by the commission within one year from the date of their

appointment in a structural fire protection personnel position.

2. Prior to being appointed to fire suppression duties, personnel must

complete a commission approved basic structure fire suppression program and

successfully complete a commission recognized emergency medical course. The

individual must successfully pass the commission examination pertaining to that

curriculum as required by _§423.3_

(http://www.tcfp.state.tx.us/standards/standards_manual/standards_manual.asp?rul\

e=423.3) of this title. The commission

recognizes the following emergency medical training:

1. Department of State Health Services Emergency Medical Service

Personnel certification training;

2. an American Red Cross Emergency Response course, including the

optional lessons and enrichment sections;

3. an American Safety and Health Institute First Responder course;

4. National Registry of Emergency Medical Technicians certification; or

5. medical training deemed equivalent by the commission.

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[Guest guest]

In a message dated 12-Dec-07 08:22:32 Central Standard Time,

mhudson@... writes:

Retinal Detachment, Acute Anterior Ischemic Optic Neuropathy, Cilliary

Retinal Artery Occlusion, Giant Arteritis???R

and if the patient is otherwise hypoxic and symptomatic, you will withhold

supplemental oxygen from those patients because?

ck

S. Krin, DO FAAFP

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[Guest guest]

Rick,

My point was that First Responder status or not you really have no control over

first responders unless they choose to allow you to have control. Everyone

thought that by being first responder officially, that the system would improve.

We didn't realize that you didn't have to be an official first responder to

respond.

Henry

Re: FRO Question

Gentlemen,

Sorry, but I'm gonna have to disagree with you on this one with an

explaination.

If a volunteer department is wanting an FRO designation with all the

perks and grant opprotunities that come with and applies, then they

should follow all the regs and rules. No argument there. But, if

you have a volunteer department, especially in a rual setting, that

is working with an EMS system to better thier area, receive training

(regardless of certification or not) through that system and

responds to administer care to that level, why in the world are we

wanting to place regulations on a department who is trying to help

within their means?

All I have heard over the past few months on this list is how to

regulate and administer rules. I agree in certain situations, that

should be, but when you need FROs, registered or not, do you really

think the patient cares if their card is up to date or not? Yes,

all should have trianing and be keep up to date with the EMS system

they are assisting, but you start issuing regulations and rules at

some of these departments that we have tried to foster a

relationship with, who did not want anything to do with EMS because

of lack of knowledge or misinformation, then we will go back to a

greater than 30 minute pt contact and care (in some areas of my

county, more than that.)

Yes, any department that wants to assist should have training by the

EMS system serving that area. They should be encouraged to further

their training and move to certification, but I will take a handfull

of ranchers and farmers with come-a-londs and prybars with Red Cross

First Aid Training that want to help and have the common sense than

some of the metropolitan departments crews.(For the record, I work

for one of those departments).

There is no greater harm than the harm caused by death. Lets not

bind these departments that are trying to reach out with chains that

will cause them to withdraw out of the pre-hospital care system and

cause EMS to suffer a step back in the name of regulation.

With Soap Box in hand,

L.

Colorado Conty EMS

----------------------------------------------------------

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12/10/2007 2:51 PM

[Guest guest]

Tom,

I would think that since I am responsible for what they do or say to my patients

then I should have some say so over what they say and do. Maybe cooperation

would be a better word.

Henry

Re: FRO Question

Gentlemen,

Sorry, but I'm gonna have to disagree with you on this one with an

explaination.

If a volunteer department is wanting an FRO designation with all the

perks and grant opprotunities that come with and applies, then they

should follow all the regs and rules. No argument there. But, if

you have a volunteer department, especially in a rual setting, that

is working with an EMS system to better thier area, receive training

(regardless of certification or not) through that system and

responds to administer care to that level, why in the world are we

wanting to place regulations on a department who is trying to help

within their means?

All I have heard over the past few months on this list is how to

regulate and administer rules. I agree in certain situations, that

should be, but when you need FROs, registered or not, do you really

think the patient cares if their card is up to date or not? Yes,

all should have trianing and be keep up to date with the EMS system

they are assisting, but you start issuing regulations and rules at

some of these departments that we have tried to foster a

relationship with, who did not want anything to do with EMS because

of lack of knowledge or misinformation, then we will go back to a

greater than 30 minute pt contact and care (in some areas of my

county, more than that.)

Yes, any department that wants to assist should have training by the

EMS system serving that area. They should be encouraged to further

their training and move to certification, but I will take a handfull

of ranchers and farmers with come-a-londs and prybars with Red Cross

First Aid Training that want to help and have the common sense than

some of the metropolitan departments crews.(For the record, I work

for one of those departments) .

There is no greater harm than the harm caused by death. Lets not

bind these departments that are trying to reach out with chains that

will cause them to withdraw out of the pre-hospital care system and

cause EMS to suffer a step back in the name of regulation.

With Soap Box in hand,

L.

Colorado Conty EMS

------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- -

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Checked by AVG Free Edition.

Version: 7.5.503 / Virus Database: 269.17.0/1180 - Release Date:

12/10/2007 2:51 PM

[Guest guest]

Henry,

Why do you need to " control " the first responder?

Tom & Marsha LeNeveu

Paramedic, Future RN; & RN

Fort Worth Texas

Email: TomMarshaLeNeveu@...

yahoo Group: Christian_Medic

Re: FRO Question

Gentlemen,

Sorry, but I'm gonna have to disagree with you on this one with an

explaination.

If a volunteer department is wanting an FRO designation with all the

perks and grant opprotunities that come with and applies, then they

should follow all the regs and rules. No argument there. But, if

you have a volunteer department, especially in a rual setting, that

is working with an EMS system to better thier area, receive training

(regardless of certification or not) through that system and

responds to administer care to that level, why in the world are we

wanting to place regulations on a department who is trying to help

within their means?

All I have heard over the past few months on this list is how to

regulate and administer rules. I agree in certain situations, that

should be, but when you need FROs, registered or not, do you really

think the patient cares if their card is up to date or not? Yes,

all should have trianing and be keep up to date with the EMS system

they are assisting, but you start issuing regulations and rules at

some of these departments that we have tried to foster a

relationship with, who did not want anything to do with EMS because

of lack of knowledge or misinformation, then we will go back to a

greater than 30 minute pt contact and care (in some areas of my

county, more than that.)

Yes, any department that wants to assist should have training by the

EMS system serving that area. They should be encouraged to further

their training and move to certification, but I will take a handfull

of ranchers and farmers with come-a-londs and prybars with Red Cross

First Aid Training that want to help and have the common sense than

some of the metropolitan departments crews.(For the record, I work

for one of those departments) .

There is no greater harm than the harm caused by death. Lets not

bind these departments that are trying to reach out with chains that

will cause them to withdraw out of the pre-hospital care system and

cause EMS to suffer a step back in the name of regulation.

With Soap Box in hand,

L.

Colorado Conty EMS

------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- -

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Checked by AVG Free Edition.

Version: 7.5.503 / Virus Database: 269.17.0/1180 - Release Date:

12/10/2007 2:51 PM

[Guest guest]

Why are you responsible for what a first responder does prior to your arrival,

and if you are worried about what they may do after you arrive, then thank them

for their help, take over patient care and relegate them to traffic control.

Perhaps the JD types have a different opinion but I don't think you would be

liable for the actions of a FR unless you allowed them to perform a negligent

action in your presence or at your request or direction.

Rick

________________________________

From: texasems-l [mailto:texasems-l ] On Behalf

Of Henry Barber

Sent: Wednesday, December 12, 2007 9:20 AM

To: texasems-l

Subject: Re: Re: FRO Question

Tom,

I would think that since I am responsible for what they do or say to my patients

then I should have some say so over what they say and do. Maybe cooperation

would be a better word.

Henry

Re: FRO Question

Gentlemen,

Sorry, but I'm gonna have to disagree with you on this one with an

explaination.

If a volunteer department is wanting an FRO designation with all the

perks and grant opprotunities that come with and applies, then they

should follow all the regs and rules. No argument there. But, if

you have a volunteer department, especially in a rual setting, that

is working with an EMS system to better thier area, receive training

(regardless of certification or not) through that system and

responds to administer care to that level, why in the world are we

wanting to place regulations on a department who is trying to help

within their means?

All I have heard over the past few months on this list is how to

regulate and administer rules. I agree in certain situations, that

should be, but when you need FROs, registered or not, do you really

think the patient cares if their card is up to date or not? Yes,

all should have trianing and be keep up to date with the EMS system

they are assisting, but you start issuing regulations and rules at

some of these departments that we have tried to foster a

relationship with, who did not want anything to do with EMS because

of lack of knowledge or misinformation, then we will go back to a

greater than 30 minute pt contact and care (in some areas of my

county, more than that.)

Yes, any department that wants to assist should have training by the

EMS system serving that area. They should be encouraged to further

their training and move to certification, but I will take a handfull

of ranchers and farmers with come-a-londs and prybars with Red Cross

First Aid Training that want to help and have the common sense than

some of the metropolitan departments crews.(For the record, I work

for one of those departments) .

There is no greater harm than the harm caused by death. Lets not

bind these departments that are trying to reach out with chains that

will cause them to withdraw out of the pre-hospital care system and

cause EMS to suffer a step back in the name of regulation.

With Soap Box in hand,

L.

Colorado Conty EMS

------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- -

No virus found in this incoming message.

Checked by AVG Free Edition.

Version: 7.5.503 / Virus Database: 269.17.0/1180 - Release Date:

12/10/2007 2:51 PM

[Guest guest]

Henry,

Why are you responsible for what the FRO does or says to your patient? Are they

apart of your ems company?

Tom & Marsha LeNeveu

Paramedic, Future RN; & RN

Fort Worth Texas

Email: TomMarshaLeNeveu@...

yahoo Group: Christian_Medic

Re: FRO Question

Gentlemen,

Sorry, but I'm gonna have to disagree with you on this one with an

explaination.

If a volunteer department is wanting an FRO designation with all the

perks and grant opprotunities that come with and applies, then they

should follow all the regs and rules. No argument there. But, if

you have a volunteer department, especially in a rual setting, that

is working with an EMS system to better thier area, receive training

(regardless of certification or not) through that system and

responds to administer care to that level, why in the world are we

wanting to place regulations on a department who is trying to help

within their means?

All I have heard over the past few months on this list is how to

regulate and administer rules. I agree in certain situations, that

should be, but when you need FROs, registered or not, do you really

think the patient cares if their card is up to date or not? Yes,

all should have trianing and be keep up to date with the EMS system

they are assisting, but you start issuing regulations and rules at

some of these departments that we have tried to foster a

relationship with, who did not want anything to do with EMS because

of lack of knowledge or misinformation, then we will go back to a

greater than 30 minute pt contact and care (in some areas of my

county, more than that.)

Yes, any department that wants to assist should have training by the

EMS system serving that area. They should be encouraged to further

their training and move to certification, but I will take a handfull

of ranchers and farmers with come-a-londs and prybars with Red Cross

First Aid Training that want to help and have the common sense than

some of the metropolitan departments crews.(For the record, I work

for one of those departments) .

There is no greater harm than the harm caused by death. Lets not

bind these departments that are trying to reach out with chains that

will cause them to withdraw out of the pre-hospital care system and

cause EMS to suffer a step back in the name of regulation.

With Soap Box in hand,

L.

Colorado Conty EMS

------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- -

No virus found in this incoming message.

Checked by AVG Free Edition.

Version: 7.5.503 / Virus Database: 269.17.0/1180 - Release Date:

12/10/2007 2:51 PM