FRO Question

[Guest guest]

I know that the FRO rule has changed some, but if you are a FRO that has been

licensed by the state, how many DSHS certified personnel are you to have or can

any one in the FRO respond and render care, if they have been certified, but

expired?

Was looking at group that has a total of three that are EMS certified, with

all the rest expired or have been emergency suspended in 2001.

Thanks,

Wayne

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[Guest guest]

IMHO, " expired " or " suspended " means that they are not to render medical care.

Stretcher fetching, traffic control, carrying equipment (and the stretcher with

the patient onboard), however, may be perfectly legal. To prevent any potential

problems, every organization with which I have ever been involved specifically

prohibits members from responding to " house call " medical emergencies unless the

member is TDH/TDSHS-certified. Collisions, forcible entry, " EMS requesting

lifting/moving assistance " , etc. open the situation up to non-certified

responders, however.

My VFD was only recently registered as an FRO, and until my people have been

through a class and earn DSHS certification, I am the only EMS responder.

That's the way we're listed on the DSHS FRO application - 1 certified responder,

and they didn't have any problem with it two months ago. I believe I am

required to update the package as additional people become certified, but I

could be mistaken.

This is NOT legal advice - simply passing along how the rules have been

interpreted by my bosses at the local level.

Phil Reynolds Jr.

115 Harold Dr.

Burnet, TX., 78611

HP

CP

FRO Question

I know that the FRO rule has changed some, but if you are a FRO that has been

licensed by the state, how many DSHS certified personnel are you to have or can

any one in the FRO respond and render care, if they have been certified, but

expired?

Was looking at group that has a total of three that are EMS certified, with

all the rest expired or have been emergency suspended in 2001.

Thanks,

Wayne

________________________________________________________________________________\

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[Guest guest]

Thank you Phil. I may have to bring this to the attention of this FRO, I know

at least one person on this scene that I saw Saturday was currently certified,

but not sure about the rest. For that matter, according to the DSHS

certification site, their FRO expired on 4/2007, if I remember correctly.

Thanks,

Wayne

Phil Reynolds wrote:

IMHO, " expired " or " suspended " means that they are not to render

medical care. Stretcher fetching, traffic control, carrying equipment (and the

stretcher with the patient onboard), however, may be perfectly legal. To prevent

any potential problems, every organization with which I have ever been involved

specifically prohibits members from responding to " house call " medical

emergencies unless the member is TDH/TDSHS-certified. Collisions, forcible

entry, " EMS requesting lifting/moving assistance " , etc. open the situation up to

non-certified responders, however.

My VFD was only recently registered as an FRO, and until my people have been

through a class and earn DSHS certification, I am the only EMS responder. That's

the way we're listed on the DSHS FRO application - 1 certified responder, and

they didn't have any problem with it two months ago. I believe I am required to

update the package as additional people become certified, but I could be

mistaken.

This is NOT legal advice - simply passing along how the rules have been

interpreted by my bosses at the local level.

Phil Reynolds Jr.

115 Harold Dr.

Burnet, TX., 78611

HP

CP

FRO Question

I know that the FRO rule has changed some, but if you are a FRO that has been

licensed by the state, how many DSHS certified personnel are you to have or can

any one in the FRO respond and render care, if they have been certified, but

expired?

Was looking at group that has a total of three that are EMS certified, with all

the rest expired or have been emergency suspended in 2001.

Thanks,

Wayne

__________________________________________________________

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[Guest guest]

This may come as a surprise but who can keep them from delivering care. I

brought it to DSHS attention last year that I had a non certified first

responder placing patients on Oxygen prior to our arrival. I was told then that

you did not have to be certified to put Oxygen on a patient. I would also

question if anyone would back you up in your endeavor to not have non certified

first responders respond to house calls. Good Luck, I wish you well. I feel your

pain.

Henry

FRO Question

I know that the FRO rule has changed some, but if you are a FRO that has been

licensed by the state, how many DSHS certified personnel are you to have or can

any one in the FRO respond and render care, if they have been certified, but

expired?

Was looking at group that has a total of three that are EMS certified, with

all the rest expired or have been emergency suspended in 2001.

Thanks,

Wayne

__________________________________________________________

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[Guest guest]

Henry brings up a good point - DSHS/EMS is every bit as overstaffed and

overfunded as the rest of us, so who's going to come enforce the rules?

If you're interested in pursuing the issue, you might first start with the local

transport provider. Since I recently went through the FRO registration process,

I can tell you that FROs are required to be approved by the transport provider

and the transport provider's medical director. Non-certified personnel working

under the licensed provider working under the MD's license equals non-certified

people working under the MD's license. Slip that little tidbit into the next

casual conversation you have with the EMS Director or the Medical Director and

see what happens.

If I were the Medical Director or the EMS Director, my question would be: " If

this agency is unable to complete a 4-page recertification application (free to

volunteer agencies and forms are available on the DSHS website) with DSHS every

two years...what level of care are they providing to my patients? " Hmmm....

Personally, I wish the situation were as simple as letting people help other

people. Professionally, I realize that standards, rules, and laws exist for a

reason, and that the standards, rules, and laws generally define the

***minimum*** performance. If the minimum standard wasn't good enough, it

wouldn't be the minimum standard, so as long as they meet the ***minimum***

standard, there's not much that can be done individually. Raising standards is

an industry issue (read: A whole 'nother arguement). But, they should AT LEAST

meet the minimum standard.

I feel your pain, too.

Phil Reynolds Jr.

115 Harold Dr.

Burnet, TX., 78611

HP

CP

Re: FRO Question

This may come as a surprise but who can keep them from delivering care. I

brought it to DSHS attention last year that I had a non certified first

responder placing patients on Oxygen prior to our arrival. I was told then that

you did not have to be certified to put Oxygen on a patient. I would also

question if anyone would back you up in your endeavor to not have non certified

first responders respond to house calls. Good Luck, I wish you well. I feel your

pain.

Henry

________________________________________________________________________________\

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[Guest guest]

Henry,

I just found it odd when I stood back and looked at this particular call and

then looked at some of the FRO's. Now, DSHS has thrown all kinds of fits over

gurney cars who are not certified, but now have to be, but we have FRO's out

there that are providing care that are not EMS certified, much like the gurney

cars, and providing pt care. Most FRO's will have certified people on their

list, but as we all know, they are all not able to respond 24/7, so you are

going to get a mix of people on a call. If you have a certified person show up,

that is the person that should be providing pt care, and not those that were

certified, but have either let it expire or have been suspended. I'm saying

this as a general statement, and not to or at anyone one FRO. As we all know

there are FRO's out there that are certified and those that are not that have a

mix of people that have no intention of causing of causing a person any harm,

but if we are going to regulate gurney cars now,

why not make certain requirements for FRO's.

I understand that most are only operating at a BLS level and that some may

have CPR and basic first aid training, but with the availability of ECA training

to rural/frontier groups, they should at least keep that up, because most of

this training is free under variou grants, including DSHS.

Thanks,

Wayne

Henry Barber wrote:

This may come as a surprise but who can keep them from delivering

care. I brought it to DSHS attention last year that I had a non certified first

responder placing patients on Oxygen prior to our arrival. I was told then that

you did not have to be certified to put Oxygen on a patient. I would also

question if anyone would back you up in your endeavor to not have non certified

first responders respond to house calls. Good Luck, I wish you well. I feel your

pain.

Henry

FRO Question

I know that the FRO rule has changed some, but if you are a FRO that has been

licensed by the state, how many DSHS certified personnel are you to have or can

any one in the FRO respond and render care, if they have been certified, but

expired?

Was looking at group that has a total of three that are EMS certified, with all

the rest expired or have been emergency suspended in 2001.

Thanks,

Wayne

__________________________________________________________

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[Guest guest]

In a message dated 12/11/2007 1:16:01 P.M. Central Standard Time,

ExLngHrn@... writes:

Besides, if they do enough stuff, maybe some of these people will become

certified.? Look what it did to me.? LOL

we need to slap someone in Lubbock!

Louis N. Molino, Sr., CET

FF/NREMT-B/FSI/EMSI

Owner and President of LNM Emergency Services Consulting Services (LNMECS)

Freelance Consultant/Trainer/Author/Journalist/Fire Protection Consultant

LNMolino@...

(Cell Phone)

(IFW/TFW/FSS Office)

(IFW/TFW/FSS Fax)

The comments contained in this E-mail are the opinions of the author and the

author alone. I in no way ever intend to speak for any person or

organization that I am in any way whatsoever involved or associated with unless

I

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stated recipient and may contain private and or confidential materials

retransmission is strictly prohibited unless placed in the public domain by the

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[Guest guest]

Your absolutely right.

Henry

FRO Question

I know that the FRO rule has changed some, but if you are a FRO that has been

licensed by the state, how many DSHS certified personnel are you to have or can

any one in the FRO respond and render care, if they have been certified, but

expired?

Was looking at group that has a total of three that are EMS certified, with

all the rest expired or have been emergency suspended in 2001.

Thanks,

Wayne

__________________________________________________________

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http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs

---------------------------------

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[Guest guest]

The problem with this

((((((If I were the Medical Director or the EMS Director, my question would be:

" If this agency is unable to complete a 4-page recertification application (free

to volunteer agencies and forms are available on the DSHS website) with DSHS

every two years...what level of care are they providing to my patients? "

Hmmm....))))))))

is:

Even if the Medical Director, or the Director of the EMS service say " You are

not going to play right so we are pulling our support thus you are no longer a

first responder " you can not stop them from responding and delivering first aid

until you arrive. Certainly if they are a ALS first responder you can stop them

from invasive procedures. BLS or first aid type stuff they can do what they

want. Imagine 5-6 non certified individuals tramping around your bedroom at

10:00 pm because you called 911 for your ill wife. They are held to no HIPAA

requirements or any other requirements. How can they do this? Because no one can

tell them they cannot and make it stick.

If something has changed where a big stick is real and can be backed up by rule

or law please let me know.

Henry

Re: FRO Question

This may come as a surprise but who can keep them from delivering care. I

brought it to DSHS attention last year that I had a non certified first

responder placing patients on Oxygen prior to our arrival. I was told then that

you did not have to be certified to put Oxygen on a patient. I would also

question if anyone would back you up in your endeavor to not have non certified

first responders respond to house calls. Good Luck, I wish you well. I feel your

pain.

Henry

__________________________________________________________

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2:51 PM

[Guest guest]

You're right. I've seen it myself. I suspect that there are remedies that can

be had at the local level if a person at the local level is willing to push the

buttons, but there will be political ramifications at the local level.

Phil Reynolds Jr.

115 Harold Dr.

Burnet, TX., 78611

HP

CP

Re: FRO Question

The problem with this

((((((If I were the Medical Director or the EMS Director, my question would be:

" If this agency is unable to complete a 4-page recertification application (free

to volunteer agencies and forms are available on the DSHS website) with DSHS

every two years...what level of care are they providing to my patients? "

Hmmm....))))))))

is:

Even if the Medical Director, or the Director of the EMS service say " You are

not going to play right so we are pulling our support thus you are no longer a

first responder " you can not stop them from responding and delivering first aid

until you arrive. Certainly if they are a ALS first responder you can stop them

from invasive procedures. BLS or first aid type stuff they can do what they

want. Imagine 5-6 non certified individuals tramping around your bedroom at

10:00 pm because you called 911 for your ill wife. They are held to no HIPAA

requirements or any other requirements. How can they do this? Because no one can

tell them they cannot and make it stick.

If something has changed where a big stick is real and can be backed up by rule

or law please let me know.

Henry

________________________________________________________________________________\

____

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[Guest guest]

A whole lot of the Hillbilly Red Cross units are out of FDs who are funded by

the county(not bashing rural EMS/Fire). Most County Commissions control funding

to the FDs, and possibly have influence over response.

-MH

________________________________

From: texasems-l [texasems-l ] On Behalf Of Phil

Reynolds [preyn2@...]

Sent: Tuesday, December 11, 2007 11:18 AM

To: texasems-l

Subject: Re: FRO Question

You're right. I've seen it myself. I suspect that there are remedies that can be

had at the local level if a person at the local level is willing to push the

buttons, but there will be political ramifications at the local level.

Phil Reynolds Jr.

115 Harold Dr.

Burnet, TX., 78611

HP

CP

Re: FRO Question

The problem with this

((((((If I were the Medical Director or the EMS Director, my question would be:

" If this agency is unable to complete a 4-page recertification application (free

to volunteer agencies and forms are available on the DSHS website) with DSHS

every two years...what level of care are they providing to my patients? "

Hmmm....))))))))

is:

Even if the Medical Director, or the Director of the EMS service say " You are

not going to play right so we are pulling our support thus you are no longer a

first responder " you can not stop them from responding and delivering first aid

until you arrive. Certainly if they are a ALS first responder you can stop them

from invasive procedures. BLS or first aid type stuff they can do what they

want. Imagine 5-6 non certified individuals tramping around your bedroom at

10:00 pm because you called 911 for your ill wife. They are held to no HIPAA

requirements or any other requirements. How can they do this? Because no one can

tell them they cannot and make it stick.

If something has changed where a big stick is real and can be backed up by rule

or law please let me know.

Henry

__________________________________________________________

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http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs

[Guest guest]

Many FRO are paid per call by county government. So if you try to limit the

number of calls they can run you will find quite a few angry rural volunteers.

Tom & Marsha LeNeveu

Paramedic, Future RN; & RN

Fort Worth Texas

Email: TomMarshaLeNeveu@...

yahoo Group: Christian_Medic

Re: FRO Question

The problem with this

((((((If I were the Medical Director or the EMS Director, my question would be:

" If this agency is unable to complete a 4-page recertification application (free

to volunteer agencies and forms are available on the DSHS website) with DSHS

every two years...what level of care are they providing to my patients? "

Hmmm....)))) ))))

is:

Even if the Medical Director, or the Director of the EMS service say " You are

not going to play right so we are pulling our support thus you are no longer a

first responder " you can not stop them from responding and delivering first aid

until you arrive. Certainly if they are a ALS first responder you can stop them

from invasive procedures. BLS or first aid type stuff they can do what they

want. Imagine 5-6 non certified individuals tramping around your bedroom at

10:00 pm because you called 911 for your ill wife. They are held to no HIPAA

requirements or any other requirements. How can they do this? Because no one can

tell them they cannot and make it stick.

If something has changed where a big stick is real and can be backed up by rule

or law please let me know.

Henry

____________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _

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[Guest guest]

Gentlemen,

Sorry, but I'm gonna have to disagree with you on this one with an

explaination.

If a volunteer department is wanting an FRO designation with all the

perks and grant opprotunities that come with and applies, then they

should follow all the regs and rules. No argument there. But, if

you have a volunteer department, especially in a rual setting, that

is working with an EMS system to better thier area, receive training

(regardless of certification or not) through that system and

responds to administer care to that level, why in the world are we

wanting to place regulations on a department who is trying to help

within their means?

All I have heard over the past few months on this list is how to

regulate and administer rules. I agree in certain situations, that

should be, but when you need FROs, registered or not, do you really

think the patient cares if their card is up to date or not? Yes,

all should have trianing and be keep up to date with the EMS system

they are assisting, but you start issuing regulations and rules at

some of these departments that we have tried to foster a

relationship with, who did not want anything to do with EMS because

of lack of knowledge or misinformation, then we will go back to a

greater than 30 minute pt contact and care (in some areas of my

county, more than that.)

Yes, any department that wants to assist should have training by the

EMS system serving that area. They should be encouraged to further

their training and move to certification, but I will take a handfull

of ranchers and farmers with come-a-londs and prybars with Red Cross

First Aid Training that want to help and have the common sense than

some of the metropolitan departments crews.(For the record, I work

for one of those departments).

There is no greater harm than the harm caused by death. Lets not

bind these departments that are trying to reach out with chains that

will cause them to withdraw out of the pre-hospital care system and

cause EMS to suffer a step back in the name of regulation.

With Soap Box in hand,

L.

Colorado Conty EMS

[Guest guest]

To this lawyer/paramedic, it seems that we need to ask if we want to be more

concerned about enforcing the rules and regulations or in assisting people in

coming into compliance.

My personal preference is to find a way to use these well-intentioned folks,

hopefully within the scope of the relevant rules and statutes.

-Wes Ogilvie, MPA, JD, LP

-Austin, Texas

Re: FRO Question

Gentlemen,

Sorry, but I'm gonna have to disagree with you on this one with an

explaination.

If a volunteer department is wanting an FRO designation with all the

perks and grant opprotunities that come with and applies, then they

should follow all the regs and rules. No argument there. But, if

you have a volunteer department, especially in a rual setting, that

is working with an EMS system to better thier area, receive training

(regardless of certification or not) through that system and

responds to administer care to that level, why in the world are we

wanting to place regulations on a department who is trying to help

within their means?

All I have heard over the past few months on this list is how to

regulate and administer rules. I agree in certain situations, that

should be, but when you need FROs, registered or not, do you really

think the patient cares if their card is up to date or not? Yes,

all should have trianing and be keep up to date with the EMS system

they are assisting, but you start issuing regulations and rules at

some of these departments that we have tried to foster a

relationship with, who did not want anything to do with EMS because

of lack of knowledge or misinformation, then we will go back to a

greater than 30 minute pt contact and care (in some areas of my

county, more than that.)

Yes, any department that wants to assist should have training by the

EMS system serving that area. They should be encouraged to further

their training and move to certification, but I will take a handfull

of ranchers and farmers with come-a-londs and prybars with Red Cross

First Aid Training that want to help and have the common sense than

some of the metropolitan departments crews.(For the record, I work

for one of those departments).

There is no greater harm than the harm caused by death. Lets not

bind these departments that are trying to reach out with chains that

will cause them to withdraw out of the pre-hospital care system and

cause EMS to suffer a step back in the name of regulation.

With Soap Box in hand,

L.

Colorado Conty EMS

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[Guest guest]

As one of our ED Physicians said just the other day. " We are trying so

hard to find ways to mediate liability, that we are forgetting all about

patient care " . I agree with Mr. and as much as I hate to admit it

Mr. Ogilvie, we need to look for ways to use these folks to the best of

everyone's ability. Having lived and worked in a rural area for many

years before moving to Aggieland, I know the value of the quality

volunteer fire department. While it is great if they can achieve FRO

designation and have certified or licensed folks on the department, they

are equally as useful if they don't participate in patient care. Would

you rather have the fire department first respond and be there when you

realize you need to cut apart the car or need lifting help, or call them

after you arrive on-scene and realize you can't get the patient out?

Do I want a non-certified firefighter starting my IV, absolutely not,

but I sure wouldn't mind if he held my c-spine, gave me O2, consoled my

family, cut me out of the car, helped drag me out of the ravine, etc,

etc., etc.

Rick

________________________________

From: texasems-l [mailto:texasems-l ] On

Behalf Of Wes Ogilvie

Sent: Tuesday, December 11, 2007 12:38 PM

To: texasems-l

Subject: Re: Re: FRO Question

To this lawyer/paramedic, it seems that we need to ask if we want to be

more concerned about enforcing the rules and regulations or in assisting

people in coming into compliance.

My personal preference is to find a way to use these well-intentioned

folks, hopefully within the scope of the relevant rules and statutes.

-Wes Ogilvie, MPA, JD, LP

-Austin, Texas

Re: FRO Question

Gentlemen,

Sorry, but I'm gonna have to disagree with you on this one with an

explaination.

If a volunteer department is wanting an FRO designation with all the

perks and grant opprotunities that come with and applies, then they

should follow all the regs and rules. No argument there. But, if

you have a volunteer department, especially in a rual setting, that

is working with an EMS system to better thier area, receive training

(regardless of certification or not) through that system and

responds to administer care to that level, why in the world are we

wanting to place regulations on a department who is trying to help

within their means?

All I have heard over the past few months on this list is how to

regulate and administer rules. I agree in certain situations, that

should be, but when you need FROs, registered or not, do you really

think the patient cares if their card is up to date or not? Yes,

all should have trianing and be keep up to date with the EMS system

they are assisting, but you start issuing regulations and rules at

some of these departments that we have tried to foster a

relationship with, who did not want anything to do with EMS because

of lack of knowledge or misinformation, then we will go back to a

greater than 30 minute pt contact and care (in some areas of my

county, more than that.)

Yes, any department that wants to assist should have training by the

EMS system serving that area. They should be encouraged to further

their training and move to certification, but I will take a handfull

of ranchers and farmers with come-a-londs and prybars with Red Cross

First Aid Training that want to help and have the common sense than

some of the metropolitan departments crews.(For the record, I work

for one of those departments).

There is no greater harm than the harm caused by death. Lets not

bind these departments that are trying to reach out with chains that

will cause them to withdraw out of the pre-hospital care system and

cause EMS to suffer a step back in the name of regulation.

With Soap Box in hand,

L.

Colorado Conty EMS

__________________________________________________________

More new features than ever. Check out the new AOL Mail ! -

http://webmail.aol.com <http://webmail.aol.com>

[Guest guest]

I've found that on almost every call, there's something that non-certified folks

can do.? Carrying equipment, doing CPR (if trained), carrying patients, etc.

Years ago, before I was even an EMT, I was riding along with Lubbock EMS.? Even

if it was just going back to the truck for supplies, I managed to do something

on almost every call.

Besides, if they do enough stuff, maybe some of these people will become

certified.? Look what it did to me.? LOL

-Wes Ogilvie, MPA, JD, LP

-Attorney/Licensed Paramedic

-Austin, Texas

Re: FRO Question

Gentlemen,

Sorry, but I'm gonna have to disagree with you on this one with an

explaination.

If a volunteer department is wanting an FRO designation with all the

perks and grant opprotunities that come with and applies, then they

should follow all the regs and rules. No argument there. But, if

you have a volunteer department, especially in a rual setting, that

is working with an EMS system to better thier area, receive training

(regardless of certification or not) through that system and

responds to administer care to that level, why in the world are we

wanting to place regulations on a department who is trying to help

within their means?

All I have heard over the past few months on this list is how to

regulate and administer rules. I agree in certain situations, that

should be, but when you need FROs, registered or not, do you really

think the patient cares if their card is up to date or not? Yes,

all should have trianing and be keep up to date with the EMS system

they are assisting, but you start issuing regulations and rules at

some of these departments that we have tried to foster a

relationship with, who did not want anything to do with EMS because

of lack of knowledge or misinformation, then we will go back to a

greater than 30 minute pt contact and care (in some areas of my

county, more than that.)

Yes, any department that wants to assist should have training by the

EMS system serving that area. They should be encouraged to further

their training and move to certification, but I will take a handfull

of ranchers and farmers with come-a-londs and prybars with Red Cross

First Aid Training that want to help and have the common sense than

some of the metropolitan departments crews.(For the record, I work

for one of those departments).

There is no greater harm than the harm caused by death. Lets not

bind these departments that are trying to reach out with chains that

will cause them to withdraw out of the pre-hospital care system and

cause EMS to suffer a step back in the name of regulation.

With Soap Box in hand,

L.

Colorado Conty EMS

__________________________________________________________

More new features than ever. Check out the new AOL Mail ! -

http://webmail.aol.com <http://webmail.aol.com>

[Guest guest]

, Wes

It is not about rules per se. Its about the first responder who chooses to be a

loose cannon out there. He They can still be a loose cannon and have good

intentions. My point was that even if we wanted to, we as the responding agency

have no control over the registered first responder or the non registered if

they choose to go off the reservation. I agree and it mostly works well here

that first responders are a valuable asset. One that chooses to go off and do

their own thing while thumbing their nose at the transport agency that is

responsible for the patient, is of no value to the patient or the cause they are

serving. We are beginning to see our few volunteer transport agencies drop back

to first responder status. In the future we will see more first responders. They

still must work within the system.

Henry

Re: FRO Question

Gentlemen,

Sorry, but I'm gonna have to disagree with you on this one with an

explaination.

If a volunteer department is wanting an FRO designation with all the

perks and grant opprotunities that come with and applies, then they

should follow all the regs and rules. No argument there. But, if

you have a volunteer department, especially in a rual setting, that

is working with an EMS system to better thier area, receive training

(regardless of certification or not) through that system and

responds to administer care to that level, why in the world are we

wanting to place regulations on a department who is trying to help

within their means?

All I have heard over the past few months on this list is how to

regulate and administer rules. I agree in certain situations, that

should be, but when you need FROs, registered or not, do you really

think the patient cares if their card is up to date or not? Yes,

all should have trianing and be keep up to date with the EMS system

they are assisting, but you start issuing regulations and rules at

some of these departments that we have tried to foster a

relationship with, who did not want anything to do with EMS because

of lack of knowledge or misinformation, then we will go back to a

greater than 30 minute pt contact and care (in some areas of my

county, more than that.)

Yes, any department that wants to assist should have training by the

EMS system serving that area. They should be encouraged to further

their training and move to certification, but I will take a handfull

of ranchers and farmers with come-a-londs and prybars with Red Cross

First Aid Training that want to help and have the common sense than

some of the metropolitan departments crews.(For the record, I work

for one of those departments).

There is no greater harm than the harm caused by death. Lets not

bind these departments that are trying to reach out with chains that

will cause them to withdraw out of the pre-hospital care system and

cause EMS to suffer a step back in the name of regulation.

With Soap Box in hand,

L.

Colorado Conty EMS

------------------------------------------------------------------------------

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2:51 PM

[Guest guest]

Henry,

You seem to base your entire argument on the fact that having FRO status

or a certification or license will prevent a responder from being a

" loose cannon " . I would submit to you that a loose cannon is loose

regardless of his or her level of certification. In my experience they

always believe that they are one notch above what the shoulder patch

says and will perform as such.

If your argument is that FRO status is the only basis that allows you to

act if a responder does " go off the reservation " I think you will find

any number of civil and criminal complaints that can be filed against

someone in these matters.

Rick , RN,LP

________________________________

From: texasems-l [mailto:texasems-l ] On

Behalf Of Henry Barber

Sent: Tuesday, December 11, 2007 1:31 PM

To: texasems-l

Subject: Re: Re: FRO Question

, Wes

It is not about rules per se. Its about the first responder who chooses

to be a loose cannon out there. He They can still be a loose cannon and

have good intentions. My point was that even if we wanted to, we as the

responding agency have no control over the registered first responder or

the non registered if they choose to go off the reservation. I agree and

it mostly works well here that first responders are a valuable asset.

One that chooses to go off and do their own thing while thumbing their

nose at the transport agency that is responsible for the patient, is of

no value to the patient or the cause they are serving. We are beginning

to see our few volunteer transport agencies drop back to first responder

status. In the future we will see more first responders. They still must

work within the system.

Henry

Re: FRO Question

Gentlemen,

Sorry, but I'm gonna have to disagree with you on this one with an

explaination.

If a volunteer department is wanting an FRO designation with all the

perks and grant opprotunities that come with and applies, then they

should follow all the regs and rules. No argument there. But, if

you have a volunteer department, especially in a rual setting, that

is working with an EMS system to better thier area, receive training

(regardless of certification or not) through that system and

responds to administer care to that level, why in the world are we

wanting to place regulations on a department who is trying to help

within their means?

All I have heard over the past few months on this list is how to

regulate and administer rules. I agree in certain situations, that

should be, but when you need FROs, registered or not, do you really

think the patient cares if their card is up to date or not? Yes,

all should have trianing and be keep up to date with the EMS system

they are assisting, but you start issuing regulations and rules at

some of these departments that we have tried to foster a

relationship with, who did not want anything to do with EMS because

of lack of knowledge or misinformation, then we will go back to a

greater than 30 minute pt contact and care (in some areas of my

county, more than that.)

Yes, any department that wants to assist should have training by the

EMS system serving that area. They should be encouraged to further

their training and move to certification, but I will take a handfull

of ranchers and farmers with come-a-londs and prybars with Red Cross

First Aid Training that want to help and have the common sense than

some of the metropolitan departments crews.(For the record, I work

for one of those departments).

There is no greater harm than the harm caused by death. Lets not

bind these departments that are trying to reach out with chains that

will cause them to withdraw out of the pre-hospital care system and

cause EMS to suffer a step back in the name of regulation.

With Soap Box in hand,

L.

Colorado Conty EMS

----------------------------------------------------------

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Checked by AVG Free Edition.

Version: 7.5.503 / Virus Database: 269.17.0/1180 - Release Date:

12/10/2007 2:51 PM