Guest guest Posted February 12, 2011 Report Share Posted February 12, 2011 This question came up at another board, and reminded me that Sister and I tried giving our nada an ultimatum back a few years ago: " Go into therapy and get help, mom, and show some improvement RE your anger management, or we will remain in (virtually) No Contact with you. " At first, the ultimatum appeared to work. Nada went into therapy (!!) After a month or so, nada began treating Sister with more civility. Sister resumed more contact. (I remained in No Contact; I ran out of resilience.) Nada appeared to be miraculously cured for several months; Sister was almost crying with relief and joy as she described our nada being sweet to her, for several visits in a row! I believe nada was also taking some med or other at the time she was in therapy to help stabilize her moods. Sister said the improved behavior was like " a small miracle. " But then one day when Sister was a little late picking nada up for some appointment or other nada had a total rage-tantrum-meltdown, like a long-overdue volcanic explosion, and SCREAMED at Sister that Sister and I are horrible, hateful children, that there is nothing wrong with nada, that she only went to therapy because we forced her to, that Sister and I are the lying, hateful, crazy ones and nada has always been the perfect mother to us. Since then, its been a back-and-forth situation for Sister and nada; sometimes they are in mutual No Contact, sometimes nada tries therapy again (even though she now loathes the therapist) and then behaves for limited periods of time and Sister resumes the limited contact. Then nada lashes out at Sister again and its back to No Contact. Over and over Sister tries to have a rational relationship with nada, who will call Sister an effing XYZ and then later will say, " I would *never* say a thing like that to you, you must hate me to claim I said such a thing! Why are you lying about me? Boo-hoo-hoo! " (And why this behavior *isn't* considered to be " psychotic " I still do not get. Although it demonstrates a disconnection with reality, apparently " psychosis " has to involve some kind of phantasmagoric quality RE sensory input, like believing that the toaster oven is inserting messages into your brain, or seeing people who are not there.) I remain in No Contact. I can't take the roller-coaster ride anymore, (I hate you/I love you, you stole something from me/I never said that) ...it makes me sick. Literally. I had started getting a sudden splitting headache+loud ringing in ears+vertigo+vomiting after being " ambushed " on the phone by nada. So, in our case, Sister and I discovered that giving our nada a very hard-line ultimatum did not work, in the long run. Nada complied with the ultimatum only due to coercion, so the therapy did her no good at all. She was just reining in her accustomed raging behaviors and nasty treatment of Sister by sheer force of will. So, I guess nada was, in her own way, really, actually trying. Good Lord, that's so sad! I feel like crying, now. -Annie Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 12, 2011 Report Share Posted February 12, 2011 Annie, In my experience, nadas have a big problem with being told what to do, so giving one an ultimatum seems unlikely to work. They rebel against being told they have to do anything. Even if they seem to concede for a while, they're probably figuring out a plan for going against the ultimatum in the end. They'll do what they need to do to get what they want right now, but they are good at plotting to do whatever they want to do in the long run. I find that it works better to simply show my nada the consequences of not treating me decently. I've never told her outright where my boundaries are. I just deprive her of contact immediately when she misbehaves. That way she can feel that she's decided to change her behavior rather than being told that she has to. It is a lot easier to get her to change if she thinks that the change was her own idea. Your sister is bound to fail if she's trying to have a rational relationship with someone who isn't rational. At 02:59 PM 02/12/2011 anuria67854 wrote: >This question came up at another board, and reminded me that >Sister and I tried giving our nada an ultimatum back a few >years ago: " Go into therapy and get help, mom, and show some >improvement RE your anger management, or we will remain in >(virtually) No Contact with you. " > >At first, the ultimatum appeared to work. > >Nada went into therapy (!!) After a month or so, nada began >treating Sister with more civility. Sister resumed more >contact. (I remained in No Contact; I ran out of resilience.) > >Nada appeared to be miraculously cured for several months; >Sister was almost crying with relief and joy as she described >our nada being sweet to her, for several visits in a row! I >believe nada was also taking some med or other at the time she >was in therapy to help stabilize her moods. Sister said the >improved behavior was like " a small miracle. " > >But then one day when Sister was a little late picking nada up >for some appointment or other nada had a total >rage-tantrum-meltdown, like a long-overdue volcanic explosion, >and SCREAMED at Sister that Sister and I are horrible, hateful >children, that there is nothing wrong with nada, that she only >went to therapy because we forced her to, that Sister and I are >the lying, hateful, crazy ones and nada has always been the >perfect mother to us. > >Since then, its been a back-and-forth situation for Sister and >nada; sometimes they are in mutual No Contact, sometimes nada >tries therapy again (even though she now loathes the therapist) >and then behaves for limited periods of time and Sister resumes >the limited contact. Then nada lashes out at Sister again and >its back to No Contact. > >Over and over Sister tries to have a rational relationship with >nada, who will call Sister an effing XYZ and then later will >say, " I would *never* say a thing like that to you, you must >hate me to claim I said such a thing! Why are you lying about >me? Boo-hoo-hoo! " > >(And why this behavior *isn't* considered to be " psychotic " I >still do not get. Although it demonstrates a disconnection >with reality, apparently " psychosis " has to involve some kind >of phantasmagoric quality RE sensory input, like believing that >the toaster oven is inserting messages into your brain, or >seeing people who are not there.) > >I remain in No Contact. I can't take the roller-coaster ride >anymore, (I hate you/I love you, you stole something from me/I >never said that) ...it makes me sick. Literally. I had started >getting a sudden splitting headache+loud ringing in >ears+vertigo+vomiting after being " ambushed " on the phone by >nada. > >So, in our case, Sister and I discovered that giving our nada a >very hard-line ultimatum did not work, in the long run. Nada >complied with the ultimatum only due to coercion, so the >therapy did her no good at all. She was just reining in her >accustomed raging behaviors and nasty treatment of Sister by >sheer force of will. > >So, I guess nada was, in her own way, really, actually >trying. > >Good Lord, that's so sad! I feel like crying, now. > >-Annie -- Katrina Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 12, 2011 Report Share Posted February 12, 2011 I agree with you, Katrina. I've tried ultimatums and they don't work. I find it helps to communicate with my mom as little as possible. Sue ________________________________ To: WTOAdultChildren1 Sent: Sat, February 12, 2011 3:53:10 PM Subject: Re: Do ultimatums work?  Annie, In my experience, nadas have a big problem with being told what to do, so giving one an ultimatum seems unlikely to work. They rebel against being told they have to do anything. Even if they seem to concede for a while, they're probably figuring out a plan for going against the ultimatum in the end. They'll do what they need to do to get what they want right now, but they are good at plotting to do whatever they want to do in the long run. I find that it works better to simply show my nada the consequences of not treating me decently. I've never told her outright where my boundaries are. I just deprive her of contact immediately when she misbehaves. That way she can feel that she's decided to change her behavior rather than being told that she has to. It is a lot easier to get her to change if she thinks that the change was her own idea. Your sister is bound to fail if she's trying to have a rational relationship with someone who isn't rational. At 02:59 PM 02/12/2011 anuria67854 wrote: >This question came up at another board, and reminded me that >Sister and I tried giving our nada an ultimatum back a few >years ago: " Go into therapy and get help, mom, and show some >improvement RE your anger management, or we will remain in >(virtually) No Contact with you. " > >At first, the ultimatum appeared to work. > >Nada went into therapy (!!) After a month or so, nada began >treating Sister with more civility. Sister resumed more >contact. (I remained in No Contact; I ran out of resilience.) > >Nada appeared to be miraculously cured for several months; >Sister was almost crying with relief and joy as she described >our nada being sweet to her, for several visits in a row! I >believe nada was also taking some med or other at the time she >was in therapy to help stabilize her moods. Sister said the >improved behavior was like " a small miracle. " > >But then one day when Sister was a little late picking nada up >for some appointment or other nada had a total >rage-tantrum-meltdown, like a long-overdue volcanic explosion, >and SCREAMED at Sister that Sister and I are horrible, hateful >children, that there is nothing wrong with nada, that she only >went to therapy because we forced her to, that Sister and I are >the lying, hateful, crazy ones and nada has always been the >perfect mother to us. > >Since then, its been a back-and-forth situation for Sister and >nada; sometimes they are in mutual No Contact, sometimes nada >tries therapy again (even though she now loathes the therapist) >and then behaves for limited periods of time and Sister resumes >the limited contact. Then nada lashes out at Sister again and >its back to No Contact. > >Over and over Sister tries to have a rational relationship with >nada, who will call Sister an effing XYZ and then later will >say, " I would *never* say a thing like that to you, you must >hate me to claim I said such a thing! Why are you lying about >me? Boo-hoo-hoo! " > >(And why this behavior *isn't* considered to be " psychotic " I >still do not get. Although it demonstrates a disconnection >with reality, apparently " psychosis " has to involve some kind >of phantasmagoric quality RE sensory input, like believing that >the toaster oven is inserting messages into your brain, or >seeing people who are not there.) > >I remain in No Contact. I can't take the roller-coaster ride >anymore, (I hate you/I love you, you stole something from me/I >never said that) ...it makes me sick. Literally. I had started >getting a sudden splitting headache+loud ringing in >ears+vertigo+vomiting after being " ambushed " on the phone by >nada. > >So, in our case, Sister and I discovered that giving our nada a >very hard-line ultimatum did not work, in the long run. Nada >complied with the ultimatum only due to coercion, so the >therapy did her no good at all. She was just reining in her >accustomed raging behaviors and nasty treatment of Sister by >sheer force of will. > >So, I guess nada was, in her own way, really, actually >trying. > >Good Lord, that's so sad! I feel like crying, now. > >-Annie -- Katrina Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 12, 2011 Report Share Posted February 12, 2011 I had temporary success with an ultimatum too. I think once my nada realized I was serious and that our relationship was over if she did certain things, she got scared. So what's slowly developed over that time is her figuring out how to inch up to that line. She knows any openly abusive behavior will get a strong and rejecting reaction from me, so she is a master of passive-aggressive stuff which I have a much harder time identifying and dealing with. But yeah...ultimatums just become something for them to work-around if they can. Annie, it sounds like in your nada's case the pressure builds in her and she blows ever so often. Whatever medication she was on during her good period would sure be worth knowing. > > This question came up at another board, and reminded me that Sister and I tried giving our nada an ultimatum back a few years ago: " Go into therapy and get help, mom, and show some improvement RE your anger management, or we will remain in (virtually) No Contact with you. " > > At first, the ultimatum appeared to work. > > Nada went into therapy (!!) After a month or so, nada began treating Sister with more civility. Sister resumed more contact. (I remained in No Contact; I ran out of resilience.) > > Nada appeared to be miraculously cured for several months; Sister was almost crying with relief and joy as she described our nada being sweet to her, for several visits in a row! I believe nada was also taking some med or other at the time she was in therapy to help stabilize her moods. Sister said the improved behavior was like " a small miracle. " > > But then one day when Sister was a little late picking nada up for some appointment or other nada had a total rage-tantrum-meltdown, like a long-overdue volcanic explosion, and SCREAMED at Sister that Sister and I are horrible, hateful children, that there is nothing wrong with nada, that she only went to therapy because we forced her to, that Sister and I are the lying, hateful, crazy ones and nada has always been the perfect mother to us. > > Since then, its been a back-and-forth situation for Sister and nada; sometimes they are in mutual No Contact, sometimes nada tries therapy again (even though she now loathes the therapist) and then behaves for limited periods of time and Sister resumes the limited contact. Then nada lashes out at Sister again and its back to No Contact. > > Over and over Sister tries to have a rational relationship with nada, who will call Sister an effing XYZ and then later will say, " I would *never* say a thing like that to you, you must hate me to claim I said such a thing! Why are you lying about me? Boo-hoo-hoo! " > > (And why this behavior *isn't* considered to be " psychotic " I still do not get. Although it demonstrates a disconnection with reality, apparently " psychosis " has to involve some kind of phantasmagoric quality RE sensory input, like believing that the toaster oven is inserting messages into your brain, or seeing people who are not there.) > > I remain in No Contact. I can't take the roller-coaster ride anymore, (I hate you/I love you, you stole something from me/I never said that) ...it makes me sick. Literally. I had started getting a sudden splitting headache+loud ringing in ears+vertigo+vomiting after being " ambushed " on the phone by nada. > > So, in our case, Sister and I discovered that giving our nada a very hard-line ultimatum did not work, in the long run. Nada complied with the ultimatum only due to coercion, so the therapy did her no good at all. She was just reining in her accustomed raging behaviors and nasty treatment of Sister by sheer force of will. > > So, I guess nada was, in her own way, really, actually trying. > > Good Lord, that's so sad! I feel like crying, now. > > -Annie > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 12, 2011 Report Share Posted February 12, 2011 Truly! Yes, I hope my Sister can find out if that same med will be prescribed for nada again, for all our sakes. Nada didn't like taking that med, though. She said it made her feel " weird, " so she stopped taking it after a while and didn't get the prescription renewed. But it sure made a difference to Sister's quality of life when nada was on it. Yes, the passive-aggressive stuff you're describing, like " stealth " insults or back-handed compliments are harder to detect immediately and deal with. Definitely more difficult. -Annie > > > > This question came up at another board, and reminded me that Sister and I tried giving our nada an ultimatum back a few years ago: " Go into therapy and get help, mom, and show some improvement RE your anger management, or we will remain in (virtually) No Contact with you. " > > > > At first, the ultimatum appeared to work. > > > > Nada went into therapy (!!) After a month or so, nada began treating Sister with more civility. Sister resumed more contact. (I remained in No Contact; I ran out of resilience.) > > > > Nada appeared to be miraculously cured for several months; Sister was almost crying with relief and joy as she described our nada being sweet to her, for several visits in a row! I believe nada was also taking some med or other at the time she was in therapy to help stabilize her moods. Sister said the improved behavior was like " a small miracle. " > > > > But then one day when Sister was a little late picking nada up for some appointment or other nada had a total rage-tantrum-meltdown, like a long-overdue volcanic explosion, and SCREAMED at Sister that Sister and I are horrible, hateful children, that there is nothing wrong with nada, that she only went to therapy because we forced her to, that Sister and I are the lying, hateful, crazy ones and nada has always been the perfect mother to us. > > > > Since then, its been a back-and-forth situation for Sister and nada; sometimes they are in mutual No Contact, sometimes nada tries therapy again (even though she now loathes the therapist) and then behaves for limited periods of time and Sister resumes the limited contact. Then nada lashes out at Sister again and its back to No Contact. > > > > Over and over Sister tries to have a rational relationship with nada, who will call Sister an effing XYZ and then later will say, " I would *never* say a thing like that to you, you must hate me to claim I said such a thing! Why are you lying about me? Boo-hoo-hoo! " > > > > (And why this behavior *isn't* considered to be " psychotic " I still do not get. Although it demonstrates a disconnection with reality, apparently " psychosis " has to involve some kind of phantasmagoric quality RE sensory input, like believing that the toaster oven is inserting messages into your brain, or seeing people who are not there.) > > > > I remain in No Contact. I can't take the roller-coaster ride anymore, (I hate you/I love you, you stole something from me/I never said that) ...it makes me sick. Literally. I had started getting a sudden splitting headache+loud ringing in ears+vertigo+vomiting after being " ambushed " on the phone by nada. > > > > So, in our case, Sister and I discovered that giving our nada a very hard-line ultimatum did not work, in the long run. Nada complied with the ultimatum only due to coercion, so the therapy did her no good at all. She was just reining in her accustomed raging behaviors and nasty treatment of Sister by sheer force of will. > > > > So, I guess nada was, in her own way, really, actually trying. > > > > Good Lord, that's so sad! I feel like crying, now. > > > > -Annie > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 12, 2011 Report Share Posted February 12, 2011 Annie, your description of Nada sounds just like my T's description of BPD/sociopath. I ask her all the time why people believe my nada. She says its because she is able to model real people at times, just enough that nada isn't busted by the muggles. On Sat, Feb 12, 2011 at 4:34 PM, anuria67854 wrote: > > > Truly! Yes, I hope my Sister can find out if that same med will be > prescribed for nada again, for all our sakes. Nada didn't like taking that > med, though. She said it made her feel " weird, " so she stopped taking it > after a while and didn't get the prescription renewed. But it sure made a > difference to Sister's quality of life when nada was on it. > > Yes, the passive-aggressive stuff you're describing, like " stealth " insults > or back-handed compliments are harder to detect immediately and deal with. > Definitely more difficult. > > -Annie > > > > > > > > This question came up at another board, and reminded me that Sister and > I tried giving our nada an ultimatum back a few years ago: " Go into therapy > and get help, mom, and show some improvement RE your anger management, or we > will remain in (virtually) No Contact with you. " > > > > > > At first, the ultimatum appeared to work. > > > > > > Nada went into therapy (!!) After a month or so, nada began treating > Sister with more civility. Sister resumed more contact. (I remained in No > Contact; I ran out of resilience.) > > > > > > Nada appeared to be miraculously cured for several months; Sister was > almost crying with relief and joy as she described our nada being sweet to > her, for several visits in a row! I believe nada was also taking some med or > other at the time she was in therapy to help stabilize her moods. Sister > said the improved behavior was like " a small miracle. " > > > > > > But then one day when Sister was a little late picking nada up for some > appointment or other nada had a total rage-tantrum-meltdown, like a > long-overdue volcanic explosion, and SCREAMED at Sister that Sister and I > are horrible, hateful children, that there is nothing wrong with nada, that > she only went to therapy because we forced her to, that Sister and I are the > lying, hateful, crazy ones and nada has always been the perfect mother to > us. > > > > > > Since then, its been a back-and-forth situation for Sister and nada; > sometimes they are in mutual No Contact, sometimes nada tries therapy again > (even though she now loathes the therapist) and then behaves for limited > periods of time and Sister resumes the limited contact. Then nada lashes out > at Sister again and its back to No Contact. > > > > > > Over and over Sister tries to have a rational relationship with nada, > who will call Sister an effing XYZ and then later will say, " I would *never* > say a thing like that to you, you must hate me to claim I said such a thing! > Why are you lying about me? Boo-hoo-hoo! " > > > > > > (And why this behavior *isn't* considered to be " psychotic " I still do > not get. Although it demonstrates a disconnection with reality, apparently > " psychosis " has to involve some kind of phantasmagoric quality RE sensory > input, like believing that the toaster oven is inserting messages into your > brain, or seeing people who are not there.) > > > > > > I remain in No Contact. I can't take the roller-coaster ride anymore, > (I hate you/I love you, you stole something from me/I never said that) ...it > makes me sick. Literally. I had started getting a sudden splitting > headache+loud ringing in ears+vertigo+vomiting after being " ambushed " on the > phone by nada. > > > > > > So, in our case, Sister and I discovered that giving our nada a very > hard-line ultimatum did not work, in the long run. Nada complied with the > ultimatum only due to coercion, so the therapy did her no good at all. She > was just reining in her accustomed raging behaviors and nasty treatment of > Sister by sheer force of will. > > > > > > So, I guess nada was, in her own way, really, actually trying. > > > > > > Good Lord, that's so sad! I feel like crying, now. > > > > > > -Annie > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 12, 2011 Report Share Posted February 12, 2011 I don't think ultimatums work, either. We told our Nada the grandkids/us would be NC until she got her anger under control. She's supposedly seeing a counselor but told a mutual friend she is refusing group sessions with my sister and I with HER counselor because she isn't PAYING for OUR counseling. " (We) can pay for our own therapy. This is HER journey. " If she is even going to a counselor. I doubt it. Blair > > > > > > This question came up at another board, and reminded me that Sister and I tried giving our nada an ultimatum back a few years ago: " Go into therapy and get help, mom, and show some improvement RE your anger management, or we will remain in (virtually) No Contact with you. " > > > > > > At first, the ultimatum appeared to work. > > > > > > Nada went into therapy (!!) After a month or so, nada began treating Sister with more civility. Sister resumed more contact. (I remained in No Contact; I ran out of resilience.) > > > > > > Nada appeared to be miraculously cured for several months; Sister was almost crying with relief and joy as she described our nada being sweet to her, for several visits in a row! I believe nada was also taking some med or other at the time she was in therapy to help stabilize her moods. Sister said the improved behavior was like " a small miracle. " > > > > > > But then one day when Sister was a little late picking nada up for some appointment or other nada had a total rage-tantrum-meltdown, like a long-overdue volcanic explosion, and SCREAMED at Sister that Sister and I are horrible, hateful children, that there is nothing wrong with nada, that she only went to therapy because we forced her to, that Sister and I are the lying, hateful, crazy ones and nada has always been the perfect mother to us. > > > > > > Since then, its been a back-and-forth situation for Sister and nada; sometimes they are in mutual No Contact, sometimes nada tries therapy again (even though she now loathes the therapist) and then behaves for limited periods of time and Sister resumes the limited contact. Then nada lashes out at Sister again and its back to No Contact. > > > > > > Over and over Sister tries to have a rational relationship with nada, who will call Sister an effing XYZ and then later will say, " I would *never* say a thing like that to you, you must hate me to claim I said such a thing! Why are you lying about me? Boo-hoo-hoo! " > > > > > > (And why this behavior *isn't* considered to be " psychotic " I still do not get. Although it demonstrates a disconnection with reality, apparently " psychosis " has to involve some kind of phantasmagoric quality RE sensory input, like believing that the toaster oven is inserting messages into your brain, or seeing people who are not there.) > > > > > > I remain in No Contact. I can't take the roller-coaster ride anymore, (I hate you/I love you, you stole something from me/I never said that) ...it makes me sick. Literally. I had started getting a sudden splitting headache+loud ringing in ears+vertigo+vomiting after being " ambushed " on the phone by nada. > > > > > > So, in our case, Sister and I discovered that giving our nada a very hard-line ultimatum did not work, in the long run. Nada complied with the ultimatum only due to coercion, so the therapy did her no good at all. She was just reining in her accustomed raging behaviors and nasty treatment of Sister by sheer force of will. > > > > > > So, I guess nada was, in her own way, really, actually trying. > > > > > > Good Lord, that's so sad! I feel like crying, now. > > > > > > -Annie > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 12, 2011 Report Share Posted February 12, 2011 Yes, indeedy. My nada for most of my life has been a Queen/Witch bpd. Queen is bpd + narcissistic pd, and Witch is bpd + antisocial pd. And I've recently come to understand that a psychopath (psychopathic pd is the more recent/more correct term, sociopathic pd is the older term) is one step more malignant and dangerously disturbed than antisocial pd. According to Dr. Hare, who developed the Hare Psychopathy Checklist, all persons with psychopathic pd have antisocial pd, but not all those with antisocial pd also have psychopathy. -Annie > > > > > > > > This question came up at another board, and reminded me that Sister and > > I tried giving our nada an ultimatum back a few years ago: " Go into therapy > > and get help, mom, and show some improvement RE your anger management, or we > > will remain in (virtually) No Contact with you. " > > > > > > > > At first, the ultimatum appeared to work. > > > > > > > > Nada went into therapy (!!) After a month or so, nada began treating > > Sister with more civility. Sister resumed more contact. (I remained in No > > Contact; I ran out of resilience.) > > > > > > > > Nada appeared to be miraculously cured for several months; Sister was > > almost crying with relief and joy as she described our nada being sweet to > > her, for several visits in a row! I believe nada was also taking some med or > > other at the time she was in therapy to help stabilize her moods. Sister > > said the improved behavior was like " a small miracle. " > > > > > > > > But then one day when Sister was a little late picking nada up for some > > appointment or other nada had a total rage-tantrum-meltdown, like a > > long-overdue volcanic explosion, and SCREAMED at Sister that Sister and I > > are horrible, hateful children, that there is nothing wrong with nada, that > > she only went to therapy because we forced her to, that Sister and I are the > > lying, hateful, crazy ones and nada has always been the perfect mother to > > us. > > > > > > > > Since then, its been a back-and-forth situation for Sister and nada; > > sometimes they are in mutual No Contact, sometimes nada tries therapy again > > (even though she now loathes the therapist) and then behaves for limited > > periods of time and Sister resumes the limited contact. Then nada lashes out > > at Sister again and its back to No Contact. > > > > > > > > Over and over Sister tries to have a rational relationship with nada, > > who will call Sister an effing XYZ and then later will say, " I would *never* > > say a thing like that to you, you must hate me to claim I said such a thing! > > Why are you lying about me? Boo-hoo-hoo! " > > > > > > > > (And why this behavior *isn't* considered to be " psychotic " I still do > > not get. Although it demonstrates a disconnection with reality, apparently > > " psychosis " has to involve some kind of phantasmagoric quality RE sensory > > input, like believing that the toaster oven is inserting messages into your > > brain, or seeing people who are not there.) > > > > > > > > I remain in No Contact. I can't take the roller-coaster ride anymore, > > (I hate you/I love you, you stole something from me/I never said that) ...it > > makes me sick. Literally. I had started getting a sudden splitting > > headache+loud ringing in ears+vertigo+vomiting after being " ambushed " on the > > phone by nada. > > > > > > > > So, in our case, Sister and I discovered that giving our nada a very > > hard-line ultimatum did not work, in the long run. Nada complied with the > > ultimatum only due to coercion, so the therapy did her no good at all. She > > was just reining in her accustomed raging behaviors and nasty treatment of > > Sister by sheer force of will. > > > > > > > > So, I guess nada was, in her own way, really, actually trying. > > > > > > > > Good Lord, that's so sad! I feel like crying, now. > > > > > > > > -Annie > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 13, 2011 Report Share Posted February 13, 2011 Nada and fada were living with my husband & I for 6 months last summer. When no one was looking, nada would push me against the wall, kick me in the groin, throw things, etc.........Well, I told her one more time, and she was going to the hospital to get seditives. Well, she kicked me. I immediately rolled her out of the house in her wheelchair, in her bathrobe and slippers and drove her to the hospital emergency room. She didn't try to physically hurt me again, but the words (lies & backstabbing) to fada, the plotting behind my back quickly began. They moved out a couple months later.....thank God. Laurie In a message dated 2/12/2011 4:53:36 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, kk1raven@... writes: Annie, In my experience, nadas have a big problem with being told what to do, so giving one an ultimatum seems unlikely to work. They rebel against being told they have to do anything. Even if they seem to concede for a while, they're probably figuring out a plan for going against the ultimatum in the end. They'll do what they need to do to get what they want right now, but they are good at plotting to do whatever they want to do in the long run. I find that it works better to simply show my nada the consequences of not treating me decently. I've never told her outright where my boundaries are. I just deprive her of contact immediately when she misbehaves. That way she can feel that she's decided to change her behavior rather than being told that she has to. It is a lot easier to get her to change if she thinks that the change was her own idea. Your sister is bound to fail if she's trying to have a rational relationship with someone who isn't rational. At 02:59 PM 02/12/2011 anuria67854 wrote: >This question came up at another board, and reminded me that >Sister and I tried giving our nada an ultimatum back a few >years ago: " Go into therapy and get help, mom, and show some >improvement RE your anger management, or we will remain in >(virtually) No Contact with you. " > >At first, the ultimatum appeared to work. > >Nada went into therapy (!!) After a month or so, nada began >treating Sister with more civility. Sister resumed more >contact. (I remained in No Contact; I ran out of resilience.) > >Nada appeared to be miraculously cured for several months; >Sister was almost crying with relief and joy as she described >our nada being sweet to her, for several visits in a row! I >believe nada was also taking some med or other at the time she >was in therapy to help stabilize her moods. Sister said the >improved behavior was like " a small miracle. " > >But then one day when Sister was a little late picking nada up >for some appointment or other nada had a total >rage-tantrum-meltdown, like a long-overdue volcanic explosion, >and SCREAMED at Sister that Sister and I are horrible, hateful >children, that there is nothing wrong with nada, that she only >went to therapy because we forced her to, that Sister and I are >the lying, hateful, crazy ones and nada has always been the >perfect mother to us. > >Since then, its been a back-and-forth situation for Sister and >nada; sometimes they are in mutual No Contact, sometimes nada >tries therapy again (even though she now loathes the therapist) >and then behaves for limited periods of time and Sister resumes >the limited contact. Then nada lashes out at Sister again and >its back to No Contact. > >Over and over Sister tries to have a rational relationship with >nada, who will call Sister an effing XYZ and then later will >say, " I would *never* say a thing like that to you, you must >hate me to claim I said such a thing! Why are you lying about >me? Boo-hoo-hoo! " > >(And why this behavior *isn't* considered to be " psychotic " I >still do not get. Although it demonstrates a disconnection >with reality, apparently " psychosis " has to involve some kind >of phantasmagoric quality RE sensory input, like believing that >the toaster oven is inserting messages into your brain, or >seeing people who are not there.) > >I remain in No Contact. I can't take the roller-coaster ride >anymore, (I hate you/I love you, you stole something from me/I >never said that) ...it makes me sick. Literally. I had started >getting a sudden splitting headache+loud ringing in >ears+vertigo+vomiting after being " ambushed " on the phone by >nada. > >So, in our case, Sister and I discovered that giving our nada a >very hard-line ultimatum did not work, in the long run. Nada >complied with the ultimatum only due to coercion, so the >therapy did her no good at all. She was just reining in her >accustomed raging behaviors and nasty treatment of Sister by >sheer force of will. > >So, I guess nada was, in her own way, really, actually >trying. > >Good Lord, that's so sad! I feel like crying, now. > >-Annie -- Katrina Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 13, 2011 Report Share Posted February 13, 2011 (((Annie))) I'm going to try to sum up what I've said elsewhere, which is that if the goal is to get another person to change, it's not going to work. If the goal is to articulate what YOU will or will not tolerate (i.e., defining personal limits/boundaries)--in other words, if the focus of the action is YOU and not the other person--then it can be helpful. I like to think in terms of personal limits (boundaries) rather than ultimatums. A personal limit is, well, personal--you get to define what you will and will not accept in your life. You might have a personal limit that you do not continue to accept contact from people who behave abusively toward you. You might even choose to communicate that limit to someone: " I do not continue to invest in relationships with people I do not trust. " You can even tell them what YOU would need in order to consider trusting them again: " I might be able to consider trusting you again in the future if I can see significant and long-term changes in your behavior, and I think your best shot at achieving those kinds of changes would be to seek help from a trained therapist. " This doesn't obligate the other person to do anything, but communicates how they might best succeed at reconciling with you if that is something they want to do. And it doesn't obligate you to allow them back if you still don't trust them, even if they do choose to seek help. But regardless of what they choose, the object of a personal limit is YOU, not the other person. YOU decide what you are willing to accept, and the consequences are protective of YOU rather than punitive for the other person. Ultimatums, on the other hand, are usually manipulative, and the consequences can be seen as punishment. See if you can detect any FOG in this statement: " If you want to see your grandchildren again, you have to go to therapy. " It is threatening, it is coercive, and the consequences are punitive. The goal of such a statement is to elicit change in the other person. If they choose not to perform the desired behavior, then they will be punished. So, I don't think ultimatums work, because they are usually based in some co-dependent need to fix someone else. But personal limits do work, because they are about your own behavior. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 13, 2011 Report Share Posted February 13, 2011 Yep, you guys are all correct; Sister and I realize that now. We're more educated (and now, experienced) about why telling someone else what to do is kind of pointless. Particularly someone with bpd. Its true: we can only control our own behaviors and set personal boundaries and rules for ourselves. Thanks, all of you. -Annie > > (((Annie))) > > I'm going to try to sum up what I've said elsewhere, which is that if the goal is to get another person to change, it's not going to work. > > If the goal is to articulate what YOU will or will not tolerate (i.e., defining personal limits/boundaries)--in other words, if the focus of the action is YOU and not the other person--then it can be helpful. > > I like to think in terms of personal limits (boundaries) rather than ultimatums. > > A personal limit is, well, personal--you get to define what you will and will not accept in your life. You might have a personal limit that you do not continue to accept contact from people who behave abusively toward you. You might even choose to communicate that limit to someone: " I do not continue to invest in relationships with people I do not trust. " You can even tell them what YOU would need in order to consider trusting them again: " I might be able to consider trusting you again in the future if I can see significant and long-term changes in your behavior, and I think your best shot at achieving those kinds of changes would be to seek help from a trained therapist. " This doesn't obligate the other person to do anything, but communicates how they might best succeed at reconciling with you if that is something they want to do. And it doesn't obligate you to allow them back if you still don't trust them, even if they do choose to seek help. > > But regardless of what they choose, the object of a personal limit is YOU, not the other person. YOU decide what you are willing to accept, and the consequences are protective of YOU rather than punitive for the other person. > > Ultimatums, on the other hand, are usually manipulative, and the consequences can be seen as punishment. See if you can detect any FOG in this statement: " If you want to see your grandchildren again, you have to go to therapy. " It is threatening, it is coercive, and the consequences are punitive. The goal of such a statement is to elicit change in the other person. If they choose not to perform the desired behavior, then they will be punished. > > So, I don't think ultimatums work, because they are usually based in some co-dependent need to fix someone else. But personal limits do work, because they are about your own behavior. > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 13, 2011 Report Share Posted February 13, 2011 Of course we know you've figured all that out...you're one of the " wise ones " here--lots of experience, lots of time spent healing. I mostly posted that for the benefit of others who will read the thread. Thanks to you, too, for bringing it up. kt > > > > (((Annie))) > > > > I'm going to try to sum up what I've said elsewhere, which is that if the goal is to get another person to change, it's not going to work. > > > > If the goal is to articulate what YOU will or will not tolerate (i.e., defining personal limits/boundaries)--in other words, if the focus of the action is YOU and not the other person--then it can be helpful. > > > > I like to think in terms of personal limits (boundaries) rather than ultimatums. > > > > A personal limit is, well, personal--you get to define what you will and will not accept in your life. You might have a personal limit that you do not continue to accept contact from people who behave abusively toward you. You might even choose to communicate that limit to someone: " I do not continue to invest in relationships with people I do not trust. " You can even tell them what YOU would need in order to consider trusting them again: " I might be able to consider trusting you again in the future if I can see significant and long-term changes in your behavior, and I think your best shot at achieving those kinds of changes would be to seek help from a trained therapist. " This doesn't obligate the other person to do anything, but communicates how they might best succeed at reconciling with you if that is something they want to do. And it doesn't obligate you to allow them back if you still don't trust them, even if they do choose to seek help. > > > > But regardless of what they choose, the object of a personal limit is YOU, not the other person. YOU decide what you are willing to accept, and the consequences are protective of YOU rather than punitive for the other person. > > > > Ultimatums, on the other hand, are usually manipulative, and the consequences can be seen as punishment. See if you can detect any FOG in this statement: " If you want to see your grandchildren again, you have to go to therapy. " It is threatening, it is coercive, and the consequences are punitive. The goal of such a statement is to elicit change in the other person. If they choose not to perform the desired behavior, then they will be punished. > > > > So, I don't think ultimatums work, because they are usually based in some co-dependent need to fix someone else. But personal limits do work, because they are about your own behavior. > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 13, 2011 Report Share Posted February 13, 2011 Thanks for the post. I've done coercion, the " you won't get to see your grandkids unless.... " and you're absolutely right: it's manipulative. Although that's the learned behavior, how nada would handle it, I see, upon reflection, that it isn't healthy. I appreciate your example and insight. > > > > > > (((Annie))) > > > > > > I'm going to try to sum up what I've said elsewhere, which is that if the goal is to get another person to change, it's not going to work. > > > > > > If the goal is to articulate what YOU will or will not tolerate (i.e., defining personal limits/boundaries)--in other words, if the focus of the action is YOU and not the other person--then it can be helpful. > > > > > > I like to think in terms of personal limits (boundaries) rather than ultimatums. > > > > > > A personal limit is, well, personal--you get to define what you will and will not accept in your life. You might have a personal limit that you do not continue to accept contact from people who behave abusively toward you. You might even choose to communicate that limit to someone: " I do not continue to invest in relationships with people I do not trust. " You can even tell them what YOU would need in order to consider trusting them again: " I might be able to consider trusting you again in the future if I can see significant and long-term changes in your behavior, and I think your best shot at achieving those kinds of changes would be to seek help from a trained therapist. " This doesn't obligate the other person to do anything, but communicates how they might best succeed at reconciling with you if that is something they want to do. And it doesn't obligate you to allow them back if you still don't trust them, even if they do choose to seek help. > > > > > > But regardless of what they choose, the object of a personal limit is YOU, not the other person. YOU decide what you are willing to accept, and the consequences are protective of YOU rather than punitive for the other person. > > > > > > Ultimatums, on the other hand, are usually manipulative, and the consequences can be seen as punishment. See if you can detect any FOG in this statement: " If you want to see your grandchildren again, you have to go to therapy. " It is threatening, it is coercive, and the consequences are punitive. The goal of such a statement is to elicit change in the other person. If they choose not to perform the desired behavior, then they will be punished. > > > > > > So, I don't think ultimatums work, because they are usually based in some co-dependent need to fix someone else. But personal limits do work, because they are about your own behavior. > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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