Re: regular vs. special needs preschool

[Guest guest]

Hello

I would like to share our experience with our son. At age 3 he was

essentially nonverbal & also not potty trained. I declined the

county placement that year & continued speech therapy 2x a week at

All Children's Hospital in Pinellas county. At age 4 he was

completely potty trained, trained easily after his sister 2 years

older entered kindergarten & I had time to devote to the one on one

training. We entered him into a 2 1/2 hour a day, 5 days a week

speech communication disorder classroom. At that time he had a few 2

word approximation sentences that we understood but was very

difficult for others to understand.

We continued therapy at ACH 2x a week & by the end of the year he had

come along far better than I ever imagined. The classroom was taught

by a slp & had 2 aides. The maximum number of students during the

year was 12 or 13. He was one of the worse off in the class, I

questioned why a couple of the kids were even in there. He learned

so much that year & did really well.

Fast forward to present day & he is in mainstream 2nd grade doing

good. He is a bit delayed in reading but is receiving help & seems

to be catching up faster this year. He still receives speech therapy

3x a week in group therapy at school but we no longer continue

private therapy. Although we are looking into starting that again

soon. I don't know if his success is one or all of the therapy,

school, Pro EFA or prayers that has worked but I know that when he

was 3 I thought it looked pretty bad. I never thought then that

someday I would have to tell him to hush but believe me now I do!!

Often!! I would visit the classrooms a few times & talk with the

teachers. Ask them how they can help your child. I think you will

get a feel for what is right.

If you would like any info on the support group that I run drop me a

line. It is a easy drive from Sarasota ( my husband does it

everyday, so I know the area well) We meet in a location right off I

275 in St. Pete.

Tammy I. in FL

[Guest guest]

! Run don't walk to Tammy's meetings. Huge turnout and

probably most active apraxia support group around today! There may

be another one starting up in the Boca area from what I hear -but as

Tammy said you are pretty close to where her meetings are and we all

get together here and there in Florida which is fun!

My son Tanner didn't potty train till four either which as you know

isn't uncommon. You'll find more acceptance of the late potty

training at the special needs school over the regular preschool in

most cases, and besides the special ed schools have IEPs so these

issues can be written into the IEP and worked on as a goal. The

late potty training is probably due to the hypotonia (weakness) and

not the apraxia. The constipation that comes after the potty

training on the other hand is probably due to the apraxia (motor

planning).

Special ed vs the regular preschool and which is best depends on a

number of things such as what the schools are like, but even more

important, if your child is a child with a simple delay in speech

(then either preschool is probably fine) vs. a child with a severe

impairment in speech (special ed placement will surround your child

with all appropriate therapies and needs -or it should while regular

preschool will provide...?)

My late talker Dakota thrived in a regular preschool, but he had

more of a simple delay in speech and he loved groups of children to

play with even when he wasn't talking. Tanner on the other hand

showed to me and Glenn as well as teachers that he wouldn't do well

in the regular preschool -he was very shy and not comfortable around

groups of children when in preschool, but thrived in the special

needs placements we put him in back then.

If the town's school EI placement isn't appropriate -don't let that

turn you off from the special ed schools. Then you can advocate for

out of district placement instead like I did while in NJ for

Tanner. In Florida with your child in the special needs program

with an active IEP after just one year of kindergarten and with an

active IEP which a regular preschool doesn't provide -he or she is

entitled to the MCkay scholarship.

http://www.floridaschoolchoice.org/Information/McKay/

That whole get your child around proper models so they will learn

how to act holds no water. How many children 50 years ago went to

preshool or daycare? Any? And yet somehow they " learned " how to act

normal by just being around Mom and Dad? My apraxic son was

schooled at a private out of district placement special needs

preschool for the hearing impaired and deaf and in spite of the lack

of normal role models -or perhaps due to this since he had nobody to

tease him about why he couldn't speak well so his self esteem stayed

in tack - Tanner has since kindergarten been schooled in the

mainstream and has tons of friends and loves to play and yes talks a

mile a minute today in spite of the fact that he is still apraxic.

One does not get cured of apraxia, but you can learn to overcome it

enough to blend for the most part. Not all the time but at least

most of the time. Saying multi complex words in long sentences -

still difficult for Tanner -but we are still working on it. Many

people today have no clue Tanner has any speech issue... until they

get him into a long discussion...which can be months after they meet

him! He's pretty good at knowing how to talk just enough to blend,

and to get others to talk more.

Better sooner than later as they say when it comes to therapy! The

goal is to put your child into the placement that will enable him or

her to be able to be placed in mainstream classes from K and beyond

with the least amount of therapy. So your job is to figure out

which is the best way to get your child there.

From: " kiddietalk " <kiddietalk@...>

Date: Sat Oct 1, 2005 11:24 am

Subject: Re: Hearing impaired class with a hearing child kiddietalk

Hi Kristie!

Tanner has normal hearing and was preschooled at an oral based school

for the hearing impaired and deaf. (in out of district placement)

It's no secret that many hearing apraxics have been successfully

preschooled at schools for the hearing impaired since Tanner went

around 6 years ago. In fact Dr. Joan Sheppard of Columbia spoke on

this topic at an ASHA conference in 2001 (for the CCC SLPs here -you

can find that information under lock and key at the ASHA website at

the let's not let anyone know what speech impairments closed to

everyone that needs it even SLPs without the CCCs section)

Problem is that in many parts of the world today there are more

apraxics than hearing impaired children -and those that have strong

advocacy and funding for 'just' the hearing impaired and deaf

populations don't want their children's schools changed. And

problem is that there is no funding for apraxia...or really just

about any speech impairments outside of hearing impairments and

today autism. If your child's speech impaired and autistic or

hearing impaired the school's got your child's back. If he's not

either of those two things, sorry.

Autism schools are good for those with autism -that's about it.

Hearing impaired schools such as the Association Method schools

which was based off a model of a school for the hearing impaired,

are proven to be great for all with speech impairments. What can

you do if they don't let you in? Buy hearing aids for your child.

Just kidding I think. Many do report to the schools that the child

has " numerous " ear infections during the child's development which

affected the child's hearing and speech. It works for both those

that say that truthfully and those that lie to get their child into

the program that helps.

Below are many many more archives on this. I'm just so thrilled

that Tanner was able to be schooled at a school for the hearing

impaired before the hearing impaired population decided they no

longer wanted to take in hearing speech impaired children.

From: " kiddietalk " <kiddietalk@...>

Date: Fri Jun 24, 2005 9:43 am

Subject: Re: Need IEP advice - is this legal? kiddietalk

Hi !

In addition to less expensive therapy sessions through ish

Rite -if there is a University that has a speech and language

program near you -they too probably offer therapy services at

nominal fees that are preformed by graduate students and overseen by

a PhD in the department.

If you visit Speechville and put in your state for resources you can

find a list of Universities and so much more!

http://www.speechville.com/regional-resources.html

support groups

http://www.speechville.com/communication-station/regional-support-

groups.html

When you seek out of district placement -the cool thing is that you

don't have to only search other school districts, you can also

search private schools. I have found over the years in this group

that many of us had the best experience and success with our children

with more severe speech impairments in schools for the hearing

impaired. Personally I prefer the oral based schools based on our

experience and those in this group with the Summit Speech School in

New Providence, NJ. Here's a list of some others

http://www.oraldeafed.org/schools/

http://www.oraldeafed.org/schools/index-list.html

Here's one for ville

http://www.oraldeafed.org/schools/clarkej/index.html

and one for North Carolina

http://www.oraldeafed.org/schools/castle/index.html

The Association Method School which is another awesome option if

it's around where one of you lives was by the way also started at a

school for the hearing impaired.

http://www.usm.edu/dubard/associat.html

The best thing about schools for the hearing impaired besides the

awesome multisensory approaches to therapy and teaching, is the lack

of any negative attitude towards those children who are essentially

nonverbal. Professionals working with hearing impaired and deaf

children are perfectly aware that just because a child is not

speaking does not mean that child is not learning...or feeling.

That in itself is just so powerful. Also for those of you that

wonder -almost zero of the children that attended the Summit Speech

School from this group like my son Tanner had any hearing impairment

at all.

How to get your child in? Not that I'm telling you to say this but I

happen to know that politically it helped for some parents to talk

about the frequent ear infections that their child had which they

were told probably affected hearing while the child's speech was

developing. To be honest -frequent ear infections is a subjective

statement. What's frequent to me may not be to you. Some of those

parents for example 'may' have thought that once a year was

frequent. Bottom line is that if word got out that the school was

at one point only 50% apraxic vs hearing impaired -funds could be

cut. Because there is no funding for apraxia in the area of

education either, as there is for say schools for educating the

hearing impaired, autistic, or visually impaired.

But again when you call the school -you may have to cof (say your

child had frequent ear infections that probably affected his or her

hearing at some point which is probably true technically speaking)

cof.

And -I had to laugh when you wrote about the testing

mechanisms that show progress in the program no matter what. I'm

not sure if this is one of those crazy old testing mechanisms or

not -but it reminded me of when Tanner was in our town school's

preschool disabled program for around 4 months while we were

advocating to get him pulled out and put into out of district

placement at the Summit Speech School. Well the town school SLP

started writing things in Tanner's communication book like " Today

Tanner asked " Can I have a pretzel please " and this was at the same

time that Tanner was saying " ti ti ti ti me? " for " Can I have a

little bit " A time where Tanner was unable to even say the " K "

sound at all -so at best it would have been " den " not " can " At

that point while I had that knot in my stomach leaving him in this

school with these professionals who were treating him so

inappropriately (some of you have read here how Tanner was punished

with their behavioral approaches to his apraxia -it's in the

archives) I was at the school each day watching and observing

through the two way glass window and said " You heard Tanner say not

the just word " pretzel " which would be amazing in itself -but the

entire sentence of " Can I have a pretzel? " ....and he even said

please?!! I've never heard him say anything and I'm watching all

day through the glass! " The response? " Yes, he said the entire

sentence and I heard it " Then she added that he said it quietly and

they were sitting at a desk away from the window at the time so I

probably didn't hear it, but that he was speaking in sentences to

this SLP each day. Of course on tape during an IEP meeting when

confronted with this -the SLP said that perhaps he wasn't exactly

saying sentences each day, but that she was able to understand what

he was saying to her.

Funny thing is that when Tanner was switched to out of district

placement at the Summit Speech School I no longer observed him that

often in school -just here and there so that I could smile. My gut

was happy -and even better was Tanner was happy and doing well -

which of course he still is and I credit to his early head start

there. Anyone that had a child in that school knows what I mean -it

was just awesome and we all wish that they schooled kids up to HS!

Kanter is the one that taught me " how to play the game " with

the school. She helped us get Tanner into the out of district

placement at the Summit Speech School when he was the only child

there with apraxia that was not hearing impaired. Never knowing it

would lead to a slew of others. She used to pass me at school

functions and whisper in my ear as she passed " lose my number " and

we would both laugh.

As you can see at the Inside Edition interview -in spite of helping

our children -she never wanted anyone to know just how many apraxic

children were in the school.

http://www.cherab.org/news/insideedition.html

Here in this more recent interview with her before her death -at a

time where I heard through the grapevine that there was close to a

50 -50 ratio to hearing impaired vs apraxic children - was

still playing and not letting on that she secretly was helping so

many children find a voice that were not hearing impaired. She

really had such a huge heart and wanted to help all children find

their voice - not just hearing impaired! God Bless you where

ever you are today -you are so missed by me that just saying your

name brings tears to my eyes.

http://www.healthyhearing.com/library/interview_content.asp?

interview_id=97

Sadly today I hear that Summit Speech School is no longer taking

children with apraxia into the school who are not hearing impaired.

It also appears that 's name is not even acknowledged after

all that woman did to make that school what it was. All I can say

is thankfully those of you with children with frequent ear

infections that affected your apraxic child's hearing while his or

her speech was developing at least are still able to get in.

Got to run but hope that helps a bit more for now!

=====

[Guest guest]

Hi ,

Our daughter went to a typical preschool when she was 3 where there were 18

kids, one teacher, one aide and a parent helper. She had the receptive

language of a 6 year old but was about 20% understandable. She loved going

to the school but when I would go in as a parent helper I would notice that

the kids wouldn't speak to her or wouldn't understand what she was saying.

I would come home and tell my husband I didn't know why she enjoyed going

there so much when no one spoke to her. It wasn't until we found a speech

preschool (10 kids, 3 teachers, all SLP's and 1 aide) and we were going

there when she told me that one of the kids in her old preschool used to

call her a baby. That just broke my heart. After 1 year in this speech

preschool she has gotten so comfortable with speaking that she speaks to

everyone now. We have continued with speech twice a week through the

county, PT once a week and OT once a week as well and find her comfort level

has increased tremendously. All of our therapists also felt that the

student/teacher ratio had to be low for her, so I think the key is if the

preschool has a low ratio and if the teacher is willing to do things that

will help your daughter like facilitating speech between her and the other

kids. Oh, she also was not potty trained when it came time for school in

September so we didn't think she could go but when I explained to her that

she had to wear big girl panties to go to school she was trained in three

days. Three days, I still can't believe it. Now, she still does not like

the whole process of wiping herself so we still have some issues with that

but I she's okay.

I would be more than happy to speak with you further about this if you

wanted to email me separately.

nne

[ ] regular vs. special needs preschool

> Hi,

> I know many of you have faced this dilemma, so I am asking for your

> advice. All of our therapists (we have 4, 2 speech, an ot, and an

> RDI consultant) feel like our daughter is capable of going to a

> regular preschool, provided the ratio is low. (She is almost 3, has

> apraxia (has lots of words and some 2 word sentences but is very

> hard to understand), also PDD-NOS). A few of the therapists feel

> very strongly that she should be around a typically developing

> population solely as she is interested in being with other children.

> We have the opportunity to send her to a special needs preschool

> where she could get free ot and speech paid for by the school

> district. I have heard it is a good school, though it seems rundown

> and is 30 minutes from our house).

> So, my dilemma is, where do I send her? I found a GREAT regular

> preschool that has an amazing ratio (6 kids to 2 teachers) and is

> very loving, but she has to be potty trained (she isn't) and this is

> a dilemma we are frequently running in to. I know kids with apraxia

> and ASD potty train later so I am concerned with place that has that

> expectation at 3.

> I just really want a place where the teachers will understand her

> condition and really help us, but I don't want her to be held back

> in any way. She is very smart (reads some words, knows all letters,

> colors, letter sounds, numbers, etc.) and I want a place with high

> expectations.

> I would sooo appreciate any advice. I am in Sarasota, FL and I

> don't think we have any hearing impaired schools here (I have

> checked the archives

>

> Thanks,

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

I do think ratio is a key, and also what the kids are like at the

school. Some of that is of course led by the teachers, but some is also

luck. My son goes to a private typical preschool. It was recommended by a

friend whose son has now a few years later been diagnosed with motor

apraxia oddly enough. She pulled her son after a half year because his

needs were not being met, but she still recommended the school. That year

the mix of kids, particularly one child with behavioral issues, was too

much for her child. This year the school is perfect for mine! He started

going this summer and did so well we continued this fall.

It's a parent co-op with two full-time teachers. He goes 4 hours two days

a week. The kids range in age from 2.5 - 5 yrs of age. My son is in the

younger class which has mostly 3 and young 4 yr olds (he turned 4 in Sept)

but also has two five yr olds that go 5 days a week. He just misses the

public school cut-off date and since verbal communication is an issue we

decided to put him with kids with closer verbal skills. There are 12 kids

in his class and two teachers and 1-2 parent participators every day. That

puts the ratio at 3-4 kids per adult depending on the day, often less since

many kids seem to be absent a lot as the germs pass around the first year

preschoolers. All of the kids are just wonderful. There is a girl a

couple months older than him who goes 5 days a week and she is like a

little mother to him. She is worried that he doesn't talk much so she

constantly tries to teach him new words and celebrates with him when he

repeats them. He works harder to make her smile and clap than he does for

me or any of his therapists. There are two boys around his age who also

have speech issues due to English being their second language. The three

of them play together a lot at school and communicate without words. It's

a good mix for him. Today we had to go by the school on his " off " day to

drop off some papers and a 5 yr old that went with him this summer was so

happy to see him. As we were leaving he approached me and said, " He's

talking much better now! " There are some very special sweet children at

this school. I haven't heard one bit of teasing of any child to

another. I doubt the teachers would tolerate it, and I also think the kids

just haven't been raised that way. Lets hope they all stay so " good " and

kind as they grow up!

This school has been wonderful for him. We're doubly blessed that one of

the teachers actually has a masters in special ed, although she got sick of

the public schools 30 yrs ago and founded this school. She actually

mentioned to me that we should evaluate him for apraxia this summer. This

was something we had thought for a while and were pursuing an eval for, but

we hadn't mentioned it yet to this teacher. She has seen one other child

in all her years of teaching with verbal apraxia. To think the whole

reason we tried this school was because it was the only one that was ok

with him not being potty trained. He potty trained overnight two months

before he started summer school so it ended up not even being an issue.

Now the public schools here on the other hand I don't have as good of

things to say about. They have 10 kids and one teacher. 8 or 9 of the

kids in the class have special needs, most more severe than my son's (he's

at least 2 yrs behind in expressive and delayed in receptive as

well.) Most of the kids in the special ed public school have emotional and

behavioral issues. My son's former EI therapists gently cautioned me that

it wouldn't be the best environment for him. My son is amazingly

mellow. After observing the school I feared that my son would be mostly

ignored. The other kids are much more demanding and my son is content to

sit and play by himself for hours at a time. This is not to say that he

chooses that, but in that environment he probably would and the single

teacher wouldn't have time to draw him out. They also only offer group

speech and they were going to throw him in OT as well because they just do

that with all kids. My son actually does not need OT, and not that it

would hurt, but the resources would be better spent giving him two hours of

speech and no OT than one hour of group both. I have yet to hear from a

parent who doesn't have some kind of complaint, even the ones who have kids

in the best teacher's class.

I was thrilled when my son's IEP team agreed that his least restrictive

placement was at the private school. I am not thrilled that they still

aren't honoring the IEP. They haven't paid any tuition as they are

required to do, and they have not provided any of the five weekly hours of

therapy documented in the IEP (2 hours one-on-one speech and 3 hrs with an

autism specialist. We believe he has been misdiagnosed, but the school

insists he only qualifies due to autism despite his severe speech delay so

we just bit our tongues and agree to the autism at the IEP. The most

recent autism specialist he worked with is the only specialist in the area

and has a contract with the schools as well as EI. She worked on verbal

social communication and did click with him. What is most important to our

son is that he likes his therapist. He made more progress in speech with

his former OT than he did with his speech therapist!!!) Anyway to make a

long story short I just got a call today and they are requesting ANOTHER

IEP for him. This will be the FOURTH IEP meeting since May and they still

haven't provided a single hour of therapy! This is nuts!!! I've called

our attorney again. She has been slow to file due process due to a family

emergency two months ago, but this has to stop now. They have ignored my

letters and requests and ignored the ones from our attorney. It's insane

that it is legal for them to keep calling all of us together and still not

provide services. They said they would provide compensatory services. My

son's teacher said that is like telling a child who is asking for breakfast

that you'll feed him tomorrow. Besides they now owe him 4.5 MONTHS of

therapy!!! Thankfully our insurance covered private speech and he has been

making progress in that, but they have now dropped coverage. I just

recently got pregnant again and the first thing a friend said is to look

into Medicaid. With the baby we qualify again. Not that I'd ever suggest

anyone get pregnant for that, but I am thankful because his speech will

again be covered.

Sorry for rambling, but school placement has been very important to us. It

was key that my son be around typical peers. After being at school he

learned he needed to try harder to talk. At home and with close friends

they understand him so well without words. When he was at school he

realized he was missing out. At first he became sad, but after a while he

started asking for more help and working harder. He's back to his happy

old self and has made good friends. He now talks about his friends a

little when he's not around them. He never did this before school even

though he and his older brother were around a lot of kids regularly (we

homeschool brother and have an active group.) I can go on and on about the

wonderful ways he has blossomed and I attribute that both to PROMPT and to

his typical peer preschool.

Miche

At 07:19 PM 1/2/2006, you wrote:

>Hi ,

>

>Our daughter went to a typical preschool when she was 3 where there were 18

>kids, one teacher, one aide and a parent helper.

[Guest guest]

Hi Miche,

Wow -don't know where to start but not even going into the whole

regular vs special needs preschool question. Your issue is far

beyond that. When you wrote:

" but the school

insists he only qualifies due to autism despite his severe speech

delay so

we just bit our tongues and agree to the autism at the IEP. "

Is your child autistic? If not:

Please don't bite anything and agree to a diagnosis that isn't true

just to get services in the short run, or you and your child will

get much worse than a bite back in the long run.

Not sure if you read The Late Talker but when the school

professionals state something you know is untrue just smile and

say " That's interesting that he only qualifies if you want to call

his severe speech delay autism. Can you put that in writing for me

and explain why? " They won't put anything in writing that's against

the Federal laws which this sounds like.

If your child isn't autistic -you need to immediately " reopen "

your child's IEP due to " change in diagnosis " and to get the

appropriate therapy and placement in his IEP.

When you say " After being at school he

learned he needed to try harder to talk. "

that method may work for

speech delays, but not for a speech impairment. Children with

impairments of speech need therapy to be taught how to talk. This

is why in this group we speak so much about frustrations the

children go through. Apraxia plus pressure is not a formula for

success. Just a bit of pressure so they try harder. If only it was

that easy for all of our children. (that method worked for my older

son Dakota who had a delay in speech)

Also if the private preschool is not being paid for, are you paying

for it? What's written in the IEP as far as where the bills are to

be sent? When my son Tanner was schooled in " out of district

placement " which is what this would be called -we never even saw one

bill to know what the costs were. Just like when your child is in a

program or therapy at public school.

When you wrote - " This will be the FOURTH IEP meeting since May and

they still

haven't provided a single hour of therapy! This is nuts!!! I've

called

our attorney again. She has been slow to file due process due to a

family

emergency two months ago, but this has to stop now. "

This is beyond nuts -it's just plain insane that this is allowed to

go on. I've never heard of this before. You need the law on your

side, if you don't understand the law since it is very complicated -

you need help with advocacy, no matter what you need a paper trail

to document everything, from memory up till now and all from this

point forward -and I'd say at this point a brand new special ed

attorney who knows what they are doing since this appears to be more

than a simple fix at this point. If your attorney can't help you

due to personal reasons he or she should have the decency to refer

you to a colleague who can help. I'd consider this malpractice

since a child's welfare is at stake here.

This may sound like a silly question, but does the school even know

how upset you are? In writing do they know? Phone calls and

conversations are as good or worse than saying nothing at all in

cases like this. (if you just say it -they may figure out how to

cover tracks) They can claim they never knew you were upset, and

can you prove that's not true? He said she said can again be

prevented by a paper trail. Not that all here have to go through

what I'm advising you -but when this much injustice is done you need

to change directions and get serious. Phone calls are fine in

cases like this when you document the time, date and who you spoke

with and what was said. Send a letter or fax or email -document

it. You are told something over the phone or in person that you

want to question -document what you were told by sending it back to

them in writing. They'll know you are serious when they start

getting letters from you return receipt requested that are cc'd to

the superintendent of schools for your district, your (new I hope)

special ed attorney, and perhaps the local government officials and

news teams.

Also, are you 100% sure that you son has 'both' expressive and

receptive delays? You say you can go on and on about the wonderful

ways he has blossomed -perhaps he needs to be evaluated again by

someone who understands that expressive and receptive delays do not

always go hand in hand.

There are many here who can help you as well on this. Best to you

in your fight for your child.

=====