Re: question about sign

July 23, 2005

Hi. My son will be 3 next month and we have been in therapy for 3 months and not

until recently have I heard of apraxia. My son's speech therapist did just

recommend we look into this disorder for him. However, before he started

therapy there was no way to communicate with him. His speech therapist has

taught him several signs, which has helped us communicate. I don't want him to

only use sign, I want him to talk some day, but for now if the tantrums are

easier, if I am able to understand him a little more because of his signs, then

it is all worth it. I think it would make things a lot less stressful and open

communication between you and your son.

myloveisyours_22 <myloveisyours_22@...> wrote:Hi. My son as i have posted

has been diagnosed with apraxia at 3. He

does not talk. We do not know what he wants or needs except when he

decides to give us gstures or little signs, or evn at times just gets

it himself without adult help (which can be dangerous) we cannot turn

our backs for a minutte or hes into something. The report from the

person who diagnosed him wants us to start working on sign with him as

a way of communication between us, however, his speech therapist says

not to and that he wants to talk and thats what she wants to work on

with him and for us not to use other forms of communication. Any

suggestions as to what we should or shouldnt do? Who do we listen to?

His speech therapist spends 45 mins with him 3 times a week and the

person who diagnosed him spent 1 1/2 hours with him twice. I dont know

what to do or where to turn at this point. I just want to take care of

his needs and know what I can do to help him best

July 23, 2005

I went through that to. But our first SLP started teaching him sign and the

second one (EIP) said not to use it because Curtis would use it as a " crutch " . I

decided to keep teaching my son sign for several reasons. One, I can't imagine

how frustrating it is for him to simply tell me that he wants some chocolate

milk. 2. It would reduce his frustration, enabling him to be able to focus more

on producing speech and hearing himself, than trying to express what it is he is

trying to say. 3. it would improve vocabulary and motor skills (not that he was

behind, but I didn't want him falling behind in other areas because I was

focusing on speech so much). 4. When he is grown, he will surely be able to

produce some kind of speech. Maybe not perfect but at least he will be able to

use his voice to communicate. I have every confidence in him. If I teach him

sign now, at least he will have a second language to fall back on. And when he

is grown, if he is uncomfortable with speaking, he can

always get involved in the Deaf community since I am already giving him an

excellent foundation with ASL. He is 2 1/2 and know more than 130 signs now,

that he can use on his own.

But these are my personal thoughts on the whole thing. Most of the other mothers

at the EIP refuse to teach their kids sign language because they want their kids

to talk now, and I don't think they are bad parents. They just chose a different

method than I did. I noticed after teaching my son sign that he was soooo much

more happier, confident, social, playful, and he has a great imagination!! I

don't think I would even know this little boy with out ASL. Before signing, he

would cry 90% of the time, because that was the only way he knew to tell me he

needed something, and after playing that guessing game he finally gets what he

needed. My son recently started attempting to imitate to (open mouth posture)

and all of a sudden he decided not to sign anymore. I have heard that when the

speech comes, they usually stop using the sign. But with my son, since I still

can't understand him, with the help of sign I can tell the difference between

" bubbles " and " bye bye " and help him say the

worked correctly instead of him asking for bubbles and I am showing him how to

say bye bye.

It's a tough decision, I know. Basically what it came down to for me, was I

would rather raise a healthy happy well rounded NON verbal child, than a

frustrated, antisocial, sad little boy (which is who he was before we learned

sign) who is verbal. It's up to you! Our therapist now, after telling me in the

beginning to stop signing, agrees now that she knows my son better, that I

should keep signing at home with him, because it is important for him to feel

comfortable in his home environment. But during therapy, they pretend they don't

know sign, and he will try talking more. So I balance it out at home. We stress

the word WITH the sign and every attempt at speech is rewarded with what ever it

is that he was asking for using the sign. Make sense? Do what you think is best

for your child, because no matter how long the MD has seen your child or the SLP

spends with your child, no one spends more time with your child than you and no

one knows them like you. Do what you think is right.

There really is no wrong answer to that question (to sign or not to sign). You

should figure out what is best for your family.

le

California, mother to Curtis, 2 1/2 years Dx verbal apraxia

myloveisyours_22 <myloveisyours_22@...> wrote:

Hi. My son as i have posted has been diagnosed with apraxia at 3. He

does not talk. We do not know what he wants or needs except when he

decides to give us gestures or little signs, or even at times just gets

it himself without adult help (which can be dangerous) we cannot turn

our backs for a minute or hes into something. The report from the

person who diagnosed him wants us to start working on sign with him as

a way of communication between us, however, his speech therapist says

not to and that he wants to talk and that's what she wants to work on

with him and for us not to use other forms of communication. Any

suggestions as to what we should or shouldn't do? Who do we listen to?

His speech therapist spends 45 mins with him 3 times a week and the

person who diagnosed him spent 1 1/2 hours with him twice. I don't know

what to do or where to turn at this point. I just want to take care of

his needs and know what I can do to help him best

July 23, 2005

,

I have seen this question asked here many times over the last year or

so so since I have been coming to this board. I, myself asked the same

question. Thinking that if my daughter signed, she wouldn't need to

learn to talk, or try to talk.

I quickly learned that isn't the case at all. Her being able to express

herself was the most important thing to me. And it always will be. No

matter what method she is able to use. Of course I would LOVE to HEAR

her say, I love you Mommy. But she can tell me through sign. Sign

language is just another form of communication. And you, as her Mom

have to go with your gut on this one. You said the st is with her 3x a

week for 45 minutes. Your with her 24/7. You know whats best.

Best of luck..

Dawn in NJ.

> Hi. My son as i have posted has been diagnosed with apraxia at 3. He

> does not talk. We do not know what he wants or needs except when he

> decides to give us gstures or little signs, or evn at times just gets

> it himself without adult help (which can be dangerous) we cannot turn

> our backs for a minutte or hes into something. The report from the

> person who diagnosed him wants us to start working on sign with him

as

> a way of communication between us, however, his speech therapist says

> not to and that he wants to talk and thats what she wants to work on

> with him and for us not to use other forms of communication. Any

> suggestions as to what we should or shouldnt do? Who do we listen to?

> His speech therapist spends 45 mins with him 3 times a week and the

> person who diagnosed him spent 1 1/2 hours with him twice. I dont

know

> what to do or where to turn at this point. I just want to take care

of

> his needs and know what I can do to help him best

>

July 25, 2005

Any time of supplemental communication is better than none. I

remember reading somewhere that often when kids learn to sign, say

the word verbally at the same time. Often these are the first words

they learn to say. It also alleviates frustration on everyone's

part. Some people use a picture system.

How long has this SLP been seeing him 3X a week? What do her

sessions look like? All the therapy in the world won't help if she

isn't doing therapy geared towards apraxia. We wasted 5 months with

someone who clearly had no idea my son w3as apraxic. Within a few

weeks his new SLP had him making attempts at words.

denise

> Hi. My son as i have posted has been diagnosed with apraxia at 3.

He

> does not talk. We do not know what he wants or needs except when

he

> decides to give us gstures or little signs, or evn at times just

gets

> it himself without adult help (which can be dangerous) we cannot

turn

> our backs for a minutte or hes into something. The report from the

> person who diagnosed him wants us to start working on sign with

him as

> a way of communication between us, however, his speech therapist

says

> not to and that he wants to talk and thats what she wants to work

on

> with him and for us not to use other forms of communication. Any

> suggestions as to what we should or shouldnt do? Who do we listen

to?

> His speech therapist spends 45 mins with him 3 times a week and

the

> person who diagnosed him spent 1 1/2 hours with him twice. I dont

know

> what to do or where to turn at this point. I just want to take

care of

> his needs and know what I can do to help him best

>

July 26, 2005

Well i mentioned the sign to bradleys speech therapist again today and she is

totally against it. She said he wants to talk and i agree there. I sat there and

watch him with her today and he talked with her, but only when she had him using

a mirror to see the way his lips should be formed. Still can not understand but

its more than he has been doing. My thoughts on that are the mirror thing works

so are we gonna have to get him to carry a mirror with him to talk??? I talked

it over with my husband and my mother in law and they dont have any input on it

just that they trust the therapist to do what i best for him. I did get him to

say I LOVE YOU with me coaxing every word even though im the only one who can

tel what he is saying, but I wonder if the therapist isnt right and just give

him time????? I dont know ..........

jerzmomof4 <Jerzmomof4@...> wrote:

,

I have seen this question asked here many times over the last year or

so so since I have been coming to this board. I, myself asked the same

question. Thinking that if my daughter signed, she wouldn't need to

learn to talk, or try to talk.

I quickly learned that isn't the case at all. Her being able to express

herself was the most important thing to me. And it always will be. No

matter what method she is able to use. Of course I would LOVE to HEAR

her say, I love you Mommy. But she can tell me through sign. Sign

language is just another form of communication. And you, as her Mom

have to go with your gut on this one. You said the st is with her 3x a

week for 45 minutes. Your with her 24/7. You know whats best.

Best of luck..

Dawn in NJ.

July 26, 2005

Hi ,

Just a few personal 'thoughts' to share with you about signing with

your child.

Our daughter is 5 1/2 years old. She has had many issues involving

oral motor skills and verbal skills. Due to fine motor delays, we

were not able to teach her sign until recently. And I will tell you,

there is nothing I will not do to help her in progressing with

speech. Signing allows us to communicate and also expand her

language & vocabulary. It also gives us insight of her cognitive

abilities.

It allows spontaneous conversation !!! When my husband came home

with Amelia after going to the park and she ran to me to 'tell me'

(with sign) what she had done at the park, (swing, run, feed ducks)

it was priceless !!! I do not want to narrow her 'world'

by 'waiting' on speech. But rather give her an avenue of

communication while the speech continues to progress. And let me

tell you, the frustration levels have decreased incredibly ! rightly

so, I can't imagine not being able to share my thoughts with those I

love !

Yes, this is your child. You have to decide.

Please consider reading the following about signing with your child.

" Using Sign Language with Children who have Apraxia of Speech " .

You can find it on the apraxia-kids.org website.

http://www.apraxia-

kids.org/site/c.chKMI0PIIsE/b.736597/apps/s/content.asp?ct=464165

Blessings,

July 27, 2005

" Well i mentioned the sign to bradleys speech therapist again today

and she is totally against it. "

-can you please share the following with your child's SLP and

ask her what aspect of the following she is " totally " against?

Thanks! :

From The Late Talker book St 's Press 2003

THE CASE FOR SIGN LANGUAGE

There has been considerable debate over the merits of teaching sign

language to non-verbal children. Some parents believe that it takes

away from the primary goal of getting their child to become vocal.

Their fear is that the child will become dependent on sign language

and unmotivated to acquire speech. Most speech experts are totally

in favor of the introduction of signing as early as possible because

it helps build vocabulary, reduces frustration, and expands

expressive language. Research indicates that signing is a stepping-

stone—albeit a very important one—on the way to speech. As the

child's ability to vocalize increases, signing falls by the wayside.

The signs are not an alternative to speech, but a method of helping

the child discover speech.

Sign language can be simple or complex. Most late-talking children

develop their own sign language, which is understood by their

immediate family, and which should be encouraged so they develop

enough key signs to make their basic needs known. Carnell

told us that when her son was two-and-a-half-years-old, and

still only saying one or two words, he and his parents learned how

to sign. " He picked it up very fast and his demeanor quickly

changed. Now that he had a way to communicate he was becoming a

happy, carefree child, " she remembers. " I cried the night I walked

into his room and saw him signing in his sleep. " Beyond late talkers

there is even a growing movement to teach sign language or " symbolic

gesturing " to all babies, so they can communicate at an earlier age

than has been considered the norm.

PICTURE EXCHANGE COMMUNICATION SYSTEM (PECS)

Another non-verbal mode of communication is picture exchange in

which illustrations are used instead of words. All the child has to

do is point at a picture icon to make himself understood. At its

most simple, you put together a book of picture symbols for your

child to carry with him. You let him decide the contents. One page

can be for breakfast items, another page for lunch, one for dinner,

one for drinks and desserts, and so forth. You can have pages of

faces showing different feelings, and pages for activities such as

reading a book, going to the park or the library, visiting

relatives, friends or the doctor, and going to the bathroom!

There are many places to find pictures. Online grocery stores like

www.netgrocer.com are ideal for food items, as are the Sunday

newspaper's coupon section and magazines. You can take photos, or

purchase picture cards from a number of sources. If you wish,

laminate the pictures to protect and strengthen them; glue food and

drink choices onto self-adhesive magnets and attach to your

refrigerator. But there's more to PECS than having a picture for a

glass of orange juice. It begins with the basic lesson that to get a

favorite item the child needs to hand over a picture of that item.

The child is then taught to create simple " sentences " such as, " I

want cookie. " From there, he learns to add clarity by using

attributes such as big/little, shape, position, and color. He also

discovers how to respond to simple questions, such as, " What do you

want? " before learning how to use the pictures to comment about

things around him: " I see a train! " " I hear a bird! " Many parents

(and some professionals) share the same concern expressed about sign

language; namely, that using a picture system inhibits speech

development. But there is no evidence of a negative outcome while

there is compelling support for the proposition that PECS encourages

speech.

From The Late Talker roughs

THE CASE FOR SIGN LANGUAGE

To sign or not to sign? There has been considerable debate by some

parents over the merits of teaching sign language to their nonverbal

children. Some parents believe that it takes away from the primary

goal of getting the child to become vocal. Their fear is that the

child will become dependent on sign language and therefore not be

motivated to acquire speech. Most speech experts are totally in

favor of the introduction of signing, and as early as possible. All

of the best research indicates that signing is but a stepping-stone—

albeit a very important one—on the way to speech. As the child's

ability to vocalize increases, signing falls by the wayside. Signing

is favored for many reasons. Among the most important:

IT BUILDS VOCABULARY. An essential element of an infant's

development is realizing that he can label things in the world

around him. Most children do so by attempting to speak the word. For

children who can't speak, signing not only gives them the

opportunity to show that they know what things are called; it also

helps them to learn more.

IT REDUCES TANTRUMS. With the acquisition of signs, the child

acquires the means to communicate. He can begin to make himself

understood, significantly reducing his frustration, which had

probably expressed itself in tears and tantrums. At the same time

your frustration is also decreased.

IT EXPANDS EXPRESSIVE LANGUAGE. Signing enables the child to acquire

expressive language, even if it is not spoken language. A child who

has difficulty producing the basic sounds of speech is at a distinct

disadvantage when it comes to learning how to string words together

in meaningful and correct sentences. Using sign gives that child a

way of exploring and mastering the development of language.

IT HELPS THE LISTENER. When used in tandem with a child's attempts

at speech, signing can greatly enhance the child's chance of being

understood. For instance, if a child is able to construct a three-

word sentence in which each word is an approximation, and therefore

not properly articulated, the listener may not comprehend what is

being said. Add sign to the vocal effort, and success is virtually

guaranteed.

IT REDUCES TEASING. It is less likely that a late-talker who signs

will be teased since the listener will assume that the child is

deaf, a more familiar condition which seems to inspire more

compassion.

As far as the human brain is concerned there's probably not as much

difference as you might think between spoken and sign communication.

A recent Canadian study using positron emission tomography (PET) to

peer inside the brain made a remarkable discovery. Scientists at

McGill University in Montreal found that deaf people—when signing—

activate the same regions of the brain as speakers without a hearing

problem.

These regions, the planum temporale and the left inferior frontal

cortex, had been associated with the processing of oral language.

But in a series of tests comparing eleven people with profound

deafness and ten people with normal hearing, blood flow was measured

within the brain and was very similar. Harvard University

neuroscientist, Dr. Caplan says that the findings support the

theory that humans have a hard-wired ability to understand language,

be it spoken or visual. "

The Late Talker St 's Press 2003

And from some recent archives on this:

From: " kiddietalk " <kiddietalk@...>

Date: Wed Jun 29, 2005 10:37 pm

Subject: Re: Sign Language kiddietalk

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Hey Girlfriend!

The story I have about sign language isn't as amazing as yours

(which was basically what replaced and became " the reason for sign "

for The Late Talker book's final version)

Tanner as I've posted only was taught simple signs, probably because

once on EFAs he started to be able to say simple words, and also

because the Summit Speech School even though it's for the hearing

impaired -acknowledged but didn't encourage the use of ASL in school

as much as verbal communication. The theory in the oral based

hearing impaired schools is that a deaf child who is nonverbal by 5

probably will never speak verbally -but one can learn to sign at any

age. While that theory worked for hearing impaired children -sign

for apraxic children is wonderful -but Summit Speech School in all

other ways was perfect. (again -Tanner has normal hearing -he was

just schooled for his preschool years at this school in out of

district placement and it was incredible for him and a vast amount

of other hearing apraxic children who like Tanner are also

mainstreamed and great students today)

One of the first simple signs taught to Tanner back then was the

word " more " To

say more in sign language you take all your fingertips and lightly

tap them together a few times.

Tanner was taught simple sign and simple picture exchange

communication for the same reasons as the other children here -at 2

to 4 he was essentially nonverbal and also during that time he

rarely smiled or showed any type of facial expression. Tanner for

the most part at 2 and 3 always had a blank look on his face so it

was hard to know just what he was thinking. Was he happy? What was

he thinking. At times it was hard, just so frustrating.

I mainly have the rare smile moments on the CHERAB site

Bottom of page here -classic " Tanner " look he was known for:

http://www.cherab.org/news/indexnews.html

This story happened during that period and right before or around

the time we first started the EFAs.

Tanner had a cold and I had just given him some kid flavored cold

medicine. As always I talked to him never expecting him to answer -

just one way conversations. I asked with a big smile " That's good

stuff huh?! " Tanner looked up and me with no expression as always.

Then he lifted up his hands toward me, took his fingertips and

started to tap them together. At first slow, then a bit faster. He

just kept tapping them together and staring up at me (probably

waiting for me to say something since I always said something!) But

there I was in shock -holding the spoon and staring at him " talking "

to me. You see -that was the first time that Tanner 'ever' talked

to me. And yes it was to me just as clear as if he said " I want

more "

I'll never forget I called everyone to share. To think of it today

I'm sure most of the people I called probably had not a clue why that

was such a profound moment to me -probably thought I was losing it.

You know what though - even today it's one of the most precious

moments.

And boy -how far we've come from then -now I have Tanner reading

about Granny Torrelli to me and we are discussing about Rosie's best

friend Baily who is visually impaired and why he had to go to a

different school then Rosie. How Tanner went to a different

preschool then most others...which reminds me.

Other than remembering he talked with his hands -does

bring up other stuff from when he was nonverbal that he remembers

today? For all of you with little kids that are still nonverbal -

just wait till they can talk, they'll blow you away with what they

recall and how they viewed it!

=====

July 27, 2005

I am a speech-pathologist and I am totally for sign language!!! My son only

asks " what's that? " and he just turned 2 on Monday. has been so

frustrated and throwing tantrums. Aside from that, he wasn't even trying to

communicate with me. I have always been a big advocate of sign language,

studying it myself in college. signed to me today that he wanted a

cracker when at story time at Borders Book store. Then, he signed " down " to

tell me he wanted out of the stroller. He signed " more " to tell me he wanted

more crackers!! Now, how would I have know what he wanted?!?!? He would have

cried/tantrumed and we would have had to leave. I always try and get him to do

an approximation of sounds that he can do in isolation, like " m " for more and

" d " for down. He is trying so hard and is so happy when I understand him.

I know each therapist has their own philosophies and beliefs. However, if you

feel with your gut that sign would help your son, I say, go for it. Do it on

your own and maybe you should think aoubt another therapist! I feel it only

enhances language and communication,.

Just had to add my 2 cents!!

Good Luck!

Mother to , age 2, possible apraxic

kiddietalk <kiddietalk@...> wrote:

" Well i mentioned the sign to bradleys speech therapist again today

and she is totally against it. "

-can you please share the following with your child's SLP and

ask her what aspect of the following she is " totally " against?

Thanks! :

From The Late Talker book St 's Press 2003

THE CASE FOR SIGN LANGUAGE

There has been considerable debate over the merits of teaching sign

language to non-verbal children. Some parents believe that it takes

away from the primary goal of getting their child to become vocal.

Their fear is that the child will become dependent on sign language

and unmotivated to acquire speech. Most speech experts are totally

in favor of the introduction of signing as early as possible because

it helps build vocabulary, reduces frustration, and expands

expressive language. Research indicates that signing is a stepping-

stone?albeit a very important one?on the way to speech. As the