Re: Differences in Views

May 7, 2005

Alan,

I'm sorry to see you go. You've been an important part of our group. As I

said before, if we all thought alike, we could elect a spokesperson to

answer for us corporately. What we would gain in peace, we would lose in

insights.

Should you ever decide to rejoin us, you'll be welcomed! Of course, you

could always just change your mind and stay, 'we'd just welcome you back'

anyway! )

Rick

At 11:15 PM 5/6/2005, you wrote:

>Hi All

>

>I was very pleased when, via a process of wandering through other

>Yahoo groups, I found this one. Of the half-dozen Yahoo groups

>I've

>looked at this year, this was by far the best.

>

>After learning a lot on how to gain control on usenet, I was looking

>for places to give a little back to newbies.

>

>There are posters here who I respected before I even knew this group

>existed - specifically Gretchen and . I had read their work over

>a year ago, and learnt so much from them both. I could never hope to

>reach the level of learning about type 2 diabetes that they have.

>Thank you both.

>

>If you read no-one else here, read Gretchen and .

>

>I learnt the bit that I know from many people over the past three

>years, also including (of " 's Advice " )

>and Quentin

>O'Grady – who some of you have heard of on other forums.

>

>However, I was somewhat disappointed to find, in recent weeks, that

>every time the subject of obesity and health was raised I was attacked

>for suggesting that reducing weight to reasonable levels may be

>healthy, or useful to assist in fighting our battle with the beast.

>Further than that, I was more disappointed to find that I seemed to be

>alone in that opinion.

>

>So, I won't continue to cause disruption. I've tried to give

>back to

>newbies a little of the information that helped me, but I'm tired

>of

>fighting. I see management of our condition as a complex matter

>needing balanced input, diet, meds, insulin, exercise etc. Negative

>inputs like smoking, sedentary lifestyles or unnecessary obesity are

>such obvious negatives that I was shocked at the response.

>

>I'll state it once more, as simply as possible, as my parting

>comment:

>

>Obesity kills. It kills diabetics quicker.

>

>It was nice knowing the majority, I felt priviliged to meet Gretchen

>and , and thank you Rick, you have an excellent group.

>

>`bye All

>

>Alan, T2, d & e, Australia

May 7, 2005

Alan,

I'm sorry to see you go. You've been an important part of our group. As I

said before, if we all thought alike, we could elect a spokesperson to

answer for us corporately. What we would gain in peace, we would lose in

insights.

Should you ever decide to rejoin us, you'll be welcomed! Of course, you

could always just change your mind and stay, 'we'd just welcome you back'

anyway! )

Rick

At 11:15 PM 5/6/2005, you wrote:

>Hi All

>

>I was very pleased when, via a process of wandering through other

>Yahoo groups, I found this one. Of the half-dozen Yahoo groups

>I've

>looked at this year, this was by far the best.

>

>After learning a lot on how to gain control on usenet, I was looking

>for places to give a little back to newbies.

>

>There are posters here who I respected before I even knew this group

>existed - specifically Gretchen and . I had read their work over

>a year ago, and learnt so much from them both. I could never hope to

>reach the level of learning about type 2 diabetes that they have.

>Thank you both.

>

>If you read no-one else here, read Gretchen and .

>

>I learnt the bit that I know from many people over the past three

>years, also including (of " 's Advice " )

>and Quentin

>O'Grady – who some of you have heard of on other forums.

>

>However, I was somewhat disappointed to find, in recent weeks, that

>every time the subject of obesity and health was raised I was attacked

>for suggesting that reducing weight to reasonable levels may be

>healthy, or useful to assist in fighting our battle with the beast.

>Further than that, I was more disappointed to find that I seemed to be

>alone in that opinion.

>

>So, I won't continue to cause disruption. I've tried to give

>back to

>newbies a little of the information that helped me, but I'm tired

>of

>fighting. I see management of our condition as a complex matter

>needing balanced input, diet, meds, insulin, exercise etc. Negative

>inputs like smoking, sedentary lifestyles or unnecessary obesity are

>such obvious negatives that I was shocked at the response.

>

>I'll state it once more, as simply as possible, as my parting

>comment:

>

>Obesity kills. It kills diabetics quicker.

>

>It was nice knowing the majority, I felt priviliged to meet Gretchen

>and , and thank you Rick, you have an excellent group.

>

>`bye All

>

>Alan, T2, d & e, Australia

May 7, 2005

Well, as I'm one of the people who doesn't let misinformation about weight

just go by, I'm sorry that my views have chased someone off the list, that was

never my intent.

My intent is only to provide a viewpoint that is contrary to what is

commonly accepted. To show another way of thinking about disease and health.

I've never argued that there aren't benefits to weighing less. I'd love to

weigh less. I gained 50 lbs in the first year after I was diagnosed, contrary

to what every person and doctor told me to do, but for a few. I was also able

to go from a 13.9 a1c to a 5.8 a1c in six months while gaining weight. Blood

pressure went from 130/90 to generally 115-120/70-80, cholesterol stayed the

same at 215, triglycerides went from 180 to 110, LDL stayed at 130 (hence was

put on 10 mg lipitor last summer). I've had a complete heart work up and my

heart is in great shape. So, while I'd like to weigh less - my knees would

like it, I'd fit into seats and clothes better, I'd probably use less insulin,

I'd be less stigmatized by the medical establishment and society in general, I

will not pray at that altar anymore. That's my decision, and that's the view

I present.

My argument has always been that losing weight and keeping it off are two

different things, and that losing weight is not required for BG control,

cholesterol contro, blood pressure control. The vast, amazing majority of

people who

lose substantial amounts of weight cannot keep it off long term. Therefore,

as has always been my argument, why not concentrate on the health factors that

can be controlled.

Even here on the list, people are often talking about losing then gaining

then losing then gaining. If that's your choice, great. There is another way,

however, and that's the view I present. Yes, being fatter may mean using more

insulin or meds. So may many other factors, including other illnesses,

stress, YMMV, etc. So long as one is well controlled, I've never understood why

it

matters how they got there - and I hear this mantra often enough on this and

other lists.

If weight loss is what you want to do, great, have fun. I'm just telling

people that there are other ways of dealing with this disease, and that being

fat, while no one's first choice, may just be the way things are.

Unfortunately,

with a medical establishment that basically says that if you are fat you

don't care about your health, it doesn't surprise me that fat people have worse

health and that fat people themselves feel the shame of being fat. If fat

people don't lose weight, it's blamed for all the problems in the world,

including

the sprained wrist, sunburn, dandruff, myopia and whatever else you can

think of, not just diabetes and high blood pressure, etc.

Unless asked to leave, I will continue to question studies that don't allow

for all the relevant factors regarding weight and health. A study that says

that fat diabetics don't live as long that doesn't correct for well controlled

diabetics is useless to me. The CDC claiming that 400,000 early deaths are

attributable to obesity that is then found to not be so and in fact only 25,000

early deaths are attributed to obesity, is something I will discuss. The fact

that sedentary lifestyle and poor eating habits are disease contributors and

causes is true for anyone, fat or thin, and while changing those things may

lead to weight loss for some people, they won't for everyone, but better health

can be achieved without weight loss.

I've never said that anyone shouldn't try to lose weight, I've only said that

better health is possible at any size, and a smaller size is not requred for

better health.

I'll leave it up to list members and Rick as to whether I should leave the

list. I won't agree not to discuss my views on this topic anymore, so if that's

a problem, let me know, and I " ll go.

Stacey

May 7, 2005

In a message dated 5/7/2005 11:29:50 AM Eastern Standard Time,

croberts@... writes:

> There are some people on this list who are militant about their

>defense of obesity, and IMO they get a tad nasty about it. If we each

>relate our own experience and don't insist that others bow to our own

>opinions we won't have anything to fight about.

That would be me, I presume. I don't defend obesity, and I'm sorry you see

it that way. What I defend is science, and the view I present is one based on

my years of experience and my research into the weight and health issues. I

don't really care what anyone else thinks of my weight, what I care about is

presenting a veiw other than the one that says that fat people can't possibly be

healthy and if one is not trying to lose weight, one doesn't care about

health and isn't doing all one could do about health.

I don't know of any other fat person on this list who is pushing people to

stay fat. Quite the contrary. Most of what I see is people pushing for health.

My argument, that you find nasty, is that there is more than one way to look

at obesity and health. No, I don't toe the party line about weight loss

being the answer to all the health problems in the universe. There are two

reasons, neither of which is a call for everyone to get and stay fat. First,

the

vast majority of people (90-95%) who lose substantial weight don't keep it off

beyond 5 years, and second, health improvements can be achieved without wieght

loss and even with weight gain, heaven forbid.

I apologize if you think I " m nasty, but at times when I've had people tell me

that I don't know what I'm talking about, that I'm ignoring all the " truths "

about weight, that I'm defending my own fatness, that I can't see reason, that

my arguments aren't valid, well, I might get a bit assertive with my views,

especially when the counter argument runs along the lines of " everybody knows

it's unhealthy to be fat. "

Stacey

May 7, 2005

I am a T2 and I am overweight, again. And my bgs and insulin needs have

gone up along with the weight gain since I broke my foot. I didn't get

into the overweight argument because every time weight is mentioned on

this list the same two people jump in to defend the obese and say it

doesn't matter. Well, it does matter. And it matters for more than

just a few of us. Alan, you are such an asset to this list that I

really don't want you to go away. Your advice and counsel to newbies

and oldbies alike is just too valuable. Please stay, and I promise, the

next time weight comes up I'll be in there fighting right alongside you.

CarolR

whimsy2 wrote:

> Alan, I just read your post about leaving the list, and I'm sorry you

> felt attacked. You're certainly not alone on this point. I support you

> wholeheartedly but since I'm not a type 2 and especially since I'm not

> overweight, I haven't spoken up on this issue.

May 7, 2005