Guest guest Posted April 22, 2005 Report Share Posted April 22, 2005 Oh dear here goes your theory. I also think that weight loss is not necessary for good control. Yes less weight mifght make the disease easir to control, for some people, but good control CAN be had without it. I have lost over 150 lbs & discovered that, contrary to what every doctor & medical pages say, it did NOT make any difference in my control. I was still using the same amount of medication that I had before weighjt loss as after. Other than when I was a newbie still learning what I could eat etc etc, my numbers & A1c remained the same after weight loss as before. Now that does NOT mean that I advocate that one shd not bother about their weight.There are many reasons to control one's weight & , for some people, it might lead to better or easier control. One does not know till one tries. Howevere, ther has been recent research which has shown that there are 2 different pathways involved here & weight loss is not necessarilky going to work for everyone. I will have to find that research later. cappie Greater Boston Area T-2 10/02 1/05 A1c: 5.4 = 115 mean glu 50-100 carb diet, walking, Metformin ALA/EPO, Coq10, B12, ALC, Vit C Cal/mag, low dose Biotin, full spectrum E, Policosanol, fish oil cap, fresh flax seed, multi vitamin, Lovastatin 20 mg, Enalapril 10 mg 4/05:140 lbs (highest weight 309), 5' tall /age 67, cappie@... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 22, 2005 Report Share Posted April 22, 2005 Oh dear here goes your theory. I also think that weight loss is not necessary for good control. Yes less weight mifght make the disease easir to control, for some people, but good control CAN be had without it. I have lost over 150 lbs & discovered that, contrary to what every doctor & medical pages say, it did NOT make any difference in my control. I was still using the same amount of medication that I had before weighjt loss as after. Other than when I was a newbie still learning what I could eat etc etc, my numbers & A1c remained the same after weight loss as before. Now that does NOT mean that I advocate that one shd not bother about their weight.There are many reasons to control one's weight & , for some people, it might lead to better or easier control. One does not know till one tries. Howevere, ther has been recent research which has shown that there are 2 different pathways involved here & weight loss is not necessarilky going to work for everyone. I will have to find that research later. cappie Greater Boston Area T-2 10/02 1/05 A1c: 5.4 = 115 mean glu 50-100 carb diet, walking, Metformin ALA/EPO, Coq10, B12, ALC, Vit C Cal/mag, low dose Biotin, full spectrum E, Policosanol, fish oil cap, fresh flax seed, multi vitamin, Lovastatin 20 mg, Enalapril 10 mg 4/05:140 lbs (highest weight 309), 5' tall /age 67, cappie@... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 22, 2005 Report Share Posted April 22, 2005 Oh dear here goes your theory. I also think that weight loss is not necessary for good control. Yes less weight mifght make the disease easir to control, for some people, but good control CAN be had without it. I have lost over 150 lbs & discovered that, contrary to what every doctor & medical pages say, it did NOT make any difference in my control. I was still using the same amount of medication that I had before weighjt loss as after. Other than when I was a newbie still learning what I could eat etc etc, my numbers & A1c remained the same after weight loss as before. Now that does NOT mean that I advocate that one shd not bother about their weight.There are many reasons to control one's weight & , for some people, it might lead to better or easier control. One does not know till one tries. Howevere, ther has been recent research which has shown that there are 2 different pathways involved here & weight loss is not necessarilky going to work for everyone. I will have to find that research later. cappie Greater Boston Area T-2 10/02 1/05 A1c: 5.4 = 115 mean glu 50-100 carb diet, walking, Metformin ALA/EPO, Coq10, B12, ALC, Vit C Cal/mag, low dose Biotin, full spectrum E, Policosanol, fish oil cap, fresh flax seed, multi vitamin, Lovastatin 20 mg, Enalapril 10 mg 4/05:140 lbs (highest weight 309), 5' tall /age 67, cappie@... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 22, 2005 Report Share Posted April 22, 2005 I think weight loss can help a lot if you're Dx'd in the early stages, when you still have a lot of living beta cells. Weight loss will make no difference if you're in the very late stages, with very little insulin production left, or if you're LADA misdiagnosed as type 2. If you're somewhere in between, the effect of weight loss will be in between. Thus I think every newly Dx'd type 2 who is overweight should start out trying to lose weight. If the weight loss produces good results, then one should continue to try. If it has no effect, then one should focus on other things instead. They say if a loss of 10 pounds hasn't made any difference in BGs, then further loss probably won't make much difference. What is wrong is when health care professionals don't understand this YMMV thing and tell you that if you just lose 10 pounds your diabetes will disappear. Or you lose some weight and nothing happens to your BGs and they say it's because you haven't lost enough. > Apart from the effects, or otherwise, of obesity on diabetes control, > the same people ignore the other health problems associated with > obesity. Except the latest news stories say that overweight people (not obese) live longer than thin people. I wish they'd make up their minds. One week they say fit and fat is better than lazy and thin; the next week they say thin is better no matter how fit you are; the next week they say thin people die faster than fat people. Gretchen Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 22, 2005 Report Share Posted April 22, 2005 I think weight loss can help a lot if you're Dx'd in the early stages, when you still have a lot of living beta cells. Weight loss will make no difference if you're in the very late stages, with very little insulin production left, or if you're LADA misdiagnosed as type 2. If you're somewhere in between, the effect of weight loss will be in between. Thus I think every newly Dx'd type 2 who is overweight should start out trying to lose weight. If the weight loss produces good results, then one should continue to try. If it has no effect, then one should focus on other things instead. They say if a loss of 10 pounds hasn't made any difference in BGs, then further loss probably won't make much difference. What is wrong is when health care professionals don't understand this YMMV thing and tell you that if you just lose 10 pounds your diabetes will disappear. Or you lose some weight and nothing happens to your BGs and they say it's because you haven't lost enough. > Apart from the effects, or otherwise, of obesity on diabetes control, > the same people ignore the other health problems associated with > obesity. Except the latest news stories say that overweight people (not obese) live longer than thin people. I wish they'd make up their minds. One week they say fit and fat is better than lazy and thin; the next week they say thin is better no matter how fit you are; the next week they say thin people die faster than fat people. Gretchen Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 22, 2005 Report Share Posted April 22, 2005 I think weight loss can help a lot if you're Dx'd in the early stages, when you still have a lot of living beta cells. Weight loss will make no difference if you're in the very late stages, with very little insulin production left, or if you're LADA misdiagnosed as type 2. If you're somewhere in between, the effect of weight loss will be in between. Thus I think every newly Dx'd type 2 who is overweight should start out trying to lose weight. If the weight loss produces good results, then one should continue to try. If it has no effect, then one should focus on other things instead. They say if a loss of 10 pounds hasn't made any difference in BGs, then further loss probably won't make much difference. What is wrong is when health care professionals don't understand this YMMV thing and tell you that if you just lose 10 pounds your diabetes will disappear. Or you lose some weight and nothing happens to your BGs and they say it's because you haven't lost enough. > Apart from the effects, or otherwise, of obesity on diabetes control, > the same people ignore the other health problems associated with > obesity. Except the latest news stories say that overweight people (not obese) live longer than thin people. I wish they'd make up their minds. One week they say fit and fat is better than lazy and thin; the next week they say thin is better no matter how fit you are; the next week they say thin people die faster than fat people. Gretchen Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 22, 2005 Report Share Posted April 22, 2005 Just as you can prove any point by quoting a Bible passage, sometimes I think that they can prove any point by quoting a study somewhere, sometime, that has been done. Sometimes the messages from these studies are just plain ambiguous, and we don't know what to believe. Sue > > I wish they'd make up their minds. One week they say fit and fat is > better > than lazy and thin; the next week they say thin is better no matter > how fit > you are; the next week they say thin people die faster than fat people. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 22, 2005 Report Share Posted April 22, 2005 I am sending this again as it never showed up in my e-mail. ------------------------------------------------------ Oh dear here goes your theory. I also think that weight loss is not necessary for good control. Yes less weight mifght make the disease easier to control, for some people, but good control CAN be had without it. I have lost over 150 lbs & discovered that, contrary to what every doctor & most medical pages say, it did NOT make any difference in my control. I was still using the same amount of medication that I had before weight loss as after. Other than when I was a newbie still learning what I could eat etc etc, my numbers & A1c remained the same after weight loss as before. Now that does NOT mean that I advocate that one shd not bother about their weight.There are many reasons to control one's weight & , for some people, it might lead to better or easier control. One does not know till one tries. However, there has been recent research which has shown that there are 2 different pathways involved here & weight loss is not necessarily going to work for everyone. I will have to find that research later. cappie Greater Boston Area T-2 10/02 1/05 A1c: 5.4 = 115 mean glu 50-100 carb diet, walking, Metformin ALA/EPO, Coq10, B12, ALC, Vit C Cal/mag, low dose Biotin, full spectrum E, Policosanol, fish oil cap, fresh flax seed, multi vitamin, Lovastatin 20 mg, Enalapril 10 mg 4/05:140 lbs (highest weight 309), 5' tall /age 67, cappie@... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 23, 2005 Report Share Posted April 23, 2005 Alan, I think you miss the point entirely. The fact is that very very few people lose any significant amount of weight and keep it off for more than a few years, at most. And for every one or two people who you can trot out who have kept off upwards of 25-50-75-100 lbs for 5 years or more, I can trot out 90-95 who have not. So, many of us who have been there and done that over and over again, believe that focusing on health, not weight, is the proper place to put our efforts. Many of us believe that focusing on something as elusive as weight loss as the cure all or even the partial cure, is, once again, setting us up for medical failure. And with the medical establishment, it's always patient failure, not medical model failure. I don't think anyone argues that for some, even most people, weighing less would help various conditions they or we deal with. Our arguement is that weight loss, for most people, doesn't last. If you've tried many different methods, stuck with the program, and gained the weight back anyway, over and over, and you're told by the medical establishment, you've failed, you have to try harder, it's your fault, then what are the chances you're going to do anything good for your health. We argue for health at any size. We argue that controlling diabetes isn't a matter of controlling weight. Losing weight might help, but it might not, and it probably won't last anyway, so why not focus on the behaviors that do definitely help - cutting carbs, starting or increasing exercise, etc. I know it's radical thinking, and I know that most people buy into the idea that weight loss is the most important thing in the universe, and I know that doctors will probably never agree, but I also know the facts. If weight loss worked so well, why aren't there millions and millions of former fat people walking around? (thanks Edd) We must all be such lazy, good for nothing lard ass couch potatoes that the reason the weight loss and lifestyle changes don't work is because we're too fat and lazy and stupid to get off the couch. I don't think so. I watch even the people who want to lose 10 or 20 lbs do it over and over again, year after year, and I wonder what they're thinking. It's like sisyphus rolling that boulder up the hill. Even though he worked incredibly hard and stuck with it, it rolled back down. So when you state that losing weight is an important part of diabetes self care, I'm going to argue that point. The fact is that diabetes can be controlled without weight loss. Plenty of thin people, mostly type 1s, have lousy control, and plenty of not very fat type 2s have lousy control. Obese type 2s haven't cornered the market on that. One of the things that doesn't occur to people aobut obese type 2s in lousy control is the fact that the medical establishment treats an obese person as if he or she doesn't care about his or her own health. They treat accordingly, accepting higher BG and higher BP and higher cholesterol. With the proper tools and information, most rational people will act rationally. How much good information were any of us given by most of our doctors? Not much, especially when it comes to what we eat. It's ten times as bad for obese people. Obese people don't " like " being obese, we don't enjoy the societal, medical, cultural abuse and prejudice we get. We'd like to fit into this world better, etc. My knees would like it if I weighed less. Maybe I would need less insulin if I weighed less. But guess what, I had heart workups and my heart is in great shape, despite being very fat (a phrase I prefer to the insulting term " morbidly obese " ), despite having smoked for 25 years until 5 years ago, despite a family history of all kinds of heart trouble. I have slightly high cholesterol given the new guidelines for diabetics (but with the guideline for LDL to be under 70, I think most people are at least a bit high), My blood pressure ranges from 115 over 75 to 120 over 80. Despite what you and many others think, I actually am doing a lot of good for my health, as are many other very fat people that I know from another list I am on. And we're not merely 50 lbs overweight, most of us are 100 or quite a bit more lbs overweight. So, Alan, you can keep buying into the theory that weight loss is an important and doable goal, and I " ll keep focusing on the theory that controlling diabetes is the more important goal and can be done well without focusing on weight loss. And any time someone says that not focusing on weight loss means not caring or doing enough about health, I will speak up. Even the government had to recognize that obesity isn't the scourge they said it was. It kills 25,000 people a year, far fewer than the 400,000 they claimed it did. I sent those articles in last week. Stacey Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 23, 2005 Report Share Posted April 23, 2005 Alan, I think you miss the point entirely. The fact is that very very few people lose any significant amount of weight and keep it off for more than a few years, at most. And for every one or two people who you can trot out who have kept off upwards of 25-50-75-100 lbs for 5 years or more, I can trot out 90-95 who have not. So, many of us who have been there and done that over and over again, believe that focusing on health, not weight, is the proper place to put our efforts. Many of us believe that focusing on something as elusive as weight loss as the cure all or even the partial cure, is, once again, setting us up for medical failure. And with the medical establishment, it's always patient failure, not medical model failure. I don't think anyone argues that for some, even most people, weighing less would help various conditions they or we deal with. Our arguement is that weight loss, for most people, doesn't last. If you've tried many different methods, stuck with the program, and gained the weight back anyway, over and over, and you're told by the medical establishment, you've failed, you have to try harder, it's your fault, then what are the chances you're going to do anything good for your health. We argue for health at any size. We argue that controlling diabetes isn't a matter of controlling weight. Losing weight might help, but it might not, and it probably won't last anyway, so why not focus on the behaviors that do definitely help - cutting carbs, starting or increasing exercise, etc. I know it's radical thinking, and I know that most people buy into the idea that weight loss is the most important thing in the universe, and I know that doctors will probably never agree, but I also know the facts. If weight loss worked so well, why aren't there millions and millions of former fat people walking around? (thanks Edd) We must all be such lazy, good for nothing lard ass couch potatoes that the reason the weight loss and lifestyle changes don't work is because we're too fat and lazy and stupid to get off the couch. I don't think so. I watch even the people who want to lose 10 or 20 lbs do it over and over again, year after year, and I wonder what they're thinking. It's like sisyphus rolling that boulder up the hill. Even though he worked incredibly hard and stuck with it, it rolled back down. So when you state that losing weight is an important part of diabetes self care, I'm going to argue that point. The fact is that diabetes can be controlled without weight loss. Plenty of thin people, mostly type 1s, have lousy control, and plenty of not very fat type 2s have lousy control. Obese type 2s haven't cornered the market on that. One of the things that doesn't occur to people aobut obese type 2s in lousy control is the fact that the medical establishment treats an obese person as if he or she doesn't care about his or her own health. They treat accordingly, accepting higher BG and higher BP and higher cholesterol. With the proper tools and information, most rational people will act rationally. How much good information were any of us given by most of our doctors? Not much, especially when it comes to what we eat. It's ten times as bad for obese people. Obese people don't " like " being obese, we don't enjoy the societal, medical, cultural abuse and prejudice we get. We'd like to fit into this world better, etc. My knees would like it if I weighed less. Maybe I would need less insulin if I weighed less. But guess what, I had heart workups and my heart is in great shape, despite being very fat (a phrase I prefer to the insulting term " morbidly obese " ), despite having smoked for 25 years until 5 years ago, despite a family history of all kinds of heart trouble. I have slightly high cholesterol given the new guidelines for diabetics (but with the guideline for LDL to be under 70, I think most people are at least a bit high), My blood pressure ranges from 115 over 75 to 120 over 80. Despite what you and many others think, I actually am doing a lot of good for my health, as are many other very fat people that I know from another list I am on. And we're not merely 50 lbs overweight, most of us are 100 or quite a bit more lbs overweight. So, Alan, you can keep buying into the theory that weight loss is an important and doable goal, and I " ll keep focusing on the theory that controlling diabetes is the more important goal and can be done well without focusing on weight loss. And any time someone says that not focusing on weight loss means not caring or doing enough about health, I will speak up. Even the government had to recognize that obesity isn't the scourge they said it was. It kills 25,000 people a year, far fewer than the 400,000 they claimed it did. I sent those articles in last week. Stacey Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 23, 2005 Report Share Posted April 23, 2005 > Alan, > > I think you miss the point entirely. No, but you do. I am attempting to get the best possible balance between good health and good living. I consider a long-term future as part of that, so I make some sacrifices now to improve possible longevity; others prefer to live in the present and ignore the future. Those are personal choices, but they don't change medical facts. Obesity is a negative health factor, not just in diabetes but in many other health issues and reduced longevity. > > The fact is that very very few people lose any significant amount > of weight and keep it off for more than a few years, at most. Because there is your point. Because " very few " can do it, in your opinion, that makes it not worth trying or medically invalid. We will never agree, because you are more interested in finding ways to rationalise fat acceptance than doing the hard work of fat reduction. OK, that's your choice, there is no blame or guilt involved here - just stop pretending that it's healthy. The article which started this discussion is at: http://jama.ama-assn.org/cgi/content/full/293/15/1861 The cut-off they used between " overweight but not obese " and " obese " was a BMI of 30 and their conclusions still showed: " Underweight and obesity, particularly higher levels of obesity, were associated with increased mortality relative to the normal weight category. " The numbers you were talking about, of 50-100 lbs overweight, are well into the higher levels of obesity. On a personal level, the fact that many others have been unable to achieve something has never been an acceptable reason for me not to try. If just one has achieved it - that is enough to show that it is possible. Cheers Alan, T2, Australia. -- Everything in Moderation - Except Laughter Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 23, 2005 Report Share Posted April 23, 2005 > Alan, > > I think you miss the point entirely. No, but you do. I am attempting to get the best possible balance between good health and good living. I consider a long-term future as part of that, so I make some sacrifices now to improve possible longevity; others prefer to live in the present and ignore the future. Those are personal choices, but they don't change medical facts. Obesity is a negative health factor, not just in diabetes but in many other health issues and reduced longevity. > > The fact is that very very few people lose any significant amount > of weight and keep it off for more than a few years, at most. Because there is your point. Because " very few " can do it, in your opinion, that makes it not worth trying or medically invalid. We will never agree, because you are more interested in finding ways to rationalise fat acceptance than doing the hard work of fat reduction. OK, that's your choice, there is no blame or guilt involved here - just stop pretending that it's healthy. The article which started this discussion is at: http://jama.ama-assn.org/cgi/content/full/293/15/1861 The cut-off they used between " overweight but not obese " and " obese " was a BMI of 30 and their conclusions still showed: " Underweight and obesity, particularly higher levels of obesity, were associated with increased mortality relative to the normal weight category. " The numbers you were talking about, of 50-100 lbs overweight, are well into the higher levels of obesity. On a personal level, the fact that many others have been unable to achieve something has never been an acceptable reason for me not to try. If just one has achieved it - that is enough to show that it is possible. Cheers Alan, T2, Australia. -- Everything in Moderation - Except Laughter Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 23, 2005 Report Share Posted April 23, 2005 Hi All As I said, I had no wish to start a flame war. Therefore this will be my last post on the subject for a while. Others may have the last word. It really takes very little searching to come up with a multitude of studies on the links between diabetes, obesity and mortality. You may wish to do some searching on Medscape, Highwire, Google Scholar, Pubmed etc. The difficulty is selecting just one as an example. However, the quote below says it fairly clearly for me. Read the numbers. Then, if appropriate, consider whether you could afford to lose some weight. " The relationship between BMI and diabetes mortality is striking. Compared with normal weight individuals, obese class I individuals are 2.8 times as likely to die, obese class II individuals are 4.7 times as likely to die, and obese class III individuals are 9.0 times as likely to die of diabetes during the follow-up period, controlling for age and sex. These results demonstrate that obesity heightens the risk of overall and circulatory disease mortality, and even more substantially increases the risk of diabetes mortality. " From: http://highwire.stanford.edu/cgi/medline/pmid;12537160? RG , RA Hummer, and PM Krueger The effect of obesity on overall, circulatory disease- and diabetes-specific mortality. J Biosoc Sci, January 1, 2003; 35(1): 107-29. Abstract: This paper explores the relationship between body mass and risk of death among US adults. The National Health Interview Survey-Multiple Cause of Death linked data set is used for the years 1987-1997, and proportional hazard models are employed to estimate the association between obesity, as measured by the body mass index (BMI), and overall, circulatory disease-specific and diabetes-specific mortality. A U-shaped relationship is found between BMI and overall mortality. Compared with normal weight individuals, mortality during the follow-up period is 34% higher among obese class II individuals and 77% higher among obese class III individuals, controlling for age and sex. A J-shaped relationship exists between circulatory disease mortality and obesity, with a slightly higher risk of death for all categories of BMI. The relationship between BMI and diabetes mortality is striking. Compared with normal weight individuals, obese class I individuals are 2.8 times as likely to die, obese class II individuals are 4.7 times as likely to die, and obese class III individuals are 9.0 times as likely to die of diabetes during the follow-up period, controlling for age and sex. These results demonstrate that obesity heightens the risk of overall and circulatory disease mortality, and even more substantially increases the risk of diabetes mortality. These mortality findings, together with the substantial recent increases in obesity, lend urgency to public health programmes aimed at reducing the prevalence and consequences of obesity. Finally, if you want the full kit for a quick death, including smoking, read this one: http://roa.sagepub.com/cgi/content/abstract/26/1/82? Body Mass, Smoking, and Overall and Cause-Specific Mortality Among Older U.S. Adults pdf at http://roa.sagepub.com/cgi/reprint/26/1/82 Cheers Alan, T2, Australia. -- Everything in Moderation - Except Laughter Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 23, 2005 Report Share Posted April 23, 2005 Hi All As I said, I had no wish to start a flame war. Therefore this will be my last post on the subject for a while. Others may have the last word. It really takes very little searching to come up with a multitude of studies on the links between diabetes, obesity and mortality. You may wish to do some searching on Medscape, Highwire, Google Scholar, Pubmed etc. The difficulty is selecting just one as an example. However, the quote below says it fairly clearly for me. Read the numbers. Then, if appropriate, consider whether you could afford to lose some weight. " The relationship between BMI and diabetes mortality is striking. Compared with normal weight individuals, obese class I individuals are 2.8 times as likely to die, obese class II individuals are 4.7 times as likely to die, and obese class III individuals are 9.0 times as likely to die of diabetes during the follow-up period, controlling for age and sex. These results demonstrate that obesity heightens the risk of overall and circulatory disease mortality, and even more substantially increases the risk of diabetes mortality. " From: http://highwire.stanford.edu/cgi/medline/pmid;12537160? RG , RA Hummer, and PM Krueger The effect of obesity on overall, circulatory disease- and diabetes-specific mortality. J Biosoc Sci, January 1, 2003; 35(1): 107-29. Abstract: This paper explores the relationship between body mass and risk of death among US adults. The National Health Interview Survey-Multiple Cause of Death linked data set is used for the years 1987-1997, and proportional hazard models are employed to estimate the association between obesity, as measured by the body mass index (BMI), and overall, circulatory disease-specific and diabetes-specific mortality. A U-shaped relationship is found between BMI and overall mortality. Compared with normal weight individuals, mortality during the follow-up period is 34% higher among obese class II individuals and 77% higher among obese class III individuals, controlling for age and sex. A J-shaped relationship exists between circulatory disease mortality and obesity, with a slightly higher risk of death for all categories of BMI. The relationship between BMI and diabetes mortality is striking. Compared with normal weight individuals, obese class I individuals are 2.8 times as likely to die, obese class II individuals are 4.7 times as likely to die, and obese class III individuals are 9.0 times as likely to die of diabetes during the follow-up period, controlling for age and sex. These results demonstrate that obesity heightens the risk of overall and circulatory disease mortality, and even more substantially increases the risk of diabetes mortality. These mortality findings, together with the substantial recent increases in obesity, lend urgency to public health programmes aimed at reducing the prevalence and consequences of obesity. Finally, if you want the full kit for a quick death, including smoking, read this one: http://roa.sagepub.com/cgi/content/abstract/26/1/82? Body Mass, Smoking, and Overall and Cause-Specific Mortality Among Older U.S. Adults pdf at http://roa.sagepub.com/cgi/reprint/26/1/82 Cheers Alan, T2, Australia. -- Everything in Moderation - Except Laughter Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 23, 2005 Report Share Posted April 23, 2005 Hi All As I said, I had no wish to start a flame war. Therefore this will be my last post on the subject for a while. Others may have the last word. It really takes very little searching to come up with a multitude of studies on the links between diabetes, obesity and mortality. You may wish to do some searching on Medscape, Highwire, Google Scholar, Pubmed etc. The difficulty is selecting just one as an example. However, the quote below says it fairly clearly for me. Read the numbers. Then, if appropriate, consider whether you could afford to lose some weight. " The relationship between BMI and diabetes mortality is striking. Compared with normal weight individuals, obese class I individuals are 2.8 times as likely to die, obese class II individuals are 4.7 times as likely to die, and obese class III individuals are 9.0 times as likely to die of diabetes during the follow-up period, controlling for age and sex. These results demonstrate that obesity heightens the risk of overall and circulatory disease mortality, and even more substantially increases the risk of diabetes mortality. " From: http://highwire.stanford.edu/cgi/medline/pmid;12537160? RG , RA Hummer, and PM Krueger The effect of obesity on overall, circulatory disease- and diabetes-specific mortality. J Biosoc Sci, January 1, 2003; 35(1): 107-29. Abstract: This paper explores the relationship between body mass and risk of death among US adults. The National Health Interview Survey-Multiple Cause of Death linked data set is used for the years 1987-1997, and proportional hazard models are employed to estimate the association between obesity, as measured by the body mass index (BMI), and overall, circulatory disease-specific and diabetes-specific mortality. A U-shaped relationship is found between BMI and overall mortality. Compared with normal weight individuals, mortality during the follow-up period is 34% higher among obese class II individuals and 77% higher among obese class III individuals, controlling for age and sex. A J-shaped relationship exists between circulatory disease mortality and obesity, with a slightly higher risk of death for all categories of BMI. The relationship between BMI and diabetes mortality is striking. Compared with normal weight individuals, obese class I individuals are 2.8 times as likely to die, obese class II individuals are 4.7 times as likely to die, and obese class III individuals are 9.0 times as likely to die of diabetes during the follow-up period, controlling for age and sex. These results demonstrate that obesity heightens the risk of overall and circulatory disease mortality, and even more substantially increases the risk of diabetes mortality. These mortality findings, together with the substantial recent increases in obesity, lend urgency to public health programmes aimed at reducing the prevalence and consequences of obesity. Finally, if you want the full kit for a quick death, including smoking, read this one: http://roa.sagepub.com/cgi/content/abstract/26/1/82? Body Mass, Smoking, and Overall and Cause-Specific Mortality Among Older U.S. Adults pdf at http://roa.sagepub.com/cgi/reprint/26/1/82 Cheers Alan, T2, Australia. -- Everything in Moderation - Except Laughter Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 23, 2005 Report Share Posted April 23, 2005 Ah yes Alan but you said you had yet to hear from anyone who had lost the weight & still felt it was not necessary for diabetes control. Well I HAVE lost the weight & I explained how it did not make much of a difference for my diabetes. Now It DID make a difference in my blood pressure & also in my joint stress & in my ability to walk & live as an acceptable social human being. & for that I am extremely happy that I did lose the weight. However I was very much disapointed when, as my weight went lower & lower, the expected & promised changes that the medicos said would happen DIDN'T -- not at 10% body loss not at 20% not at 30% -- not at all. I did not have diabetes for a long time either. Because of my weight, my doc kept a close watch on my bg's. I had an A1c done every year & was always below 7% usually around 6 or 6.5. Only after cervical surgery left me unable to do all the walking I had done previously, did it go over 7% & I knew it right away because I recognized the symptoms. I immediately quit eating the " whites " & had lost 20lbs just by doing that by the time I got to the doctor 4 weeks later. The weight loss I achieved came about by the change in my eating for my disease NOT because I was trying to lose weight per se. cappie Greater Boston Area T-2 10/02 1/05 A1c: 5.4 = 115 mean glu 50-100 carb diet, walking, Metformin ALA/EPO, Coq10, B12, ALC, Vit C Cal/mag, low dose Biotin, full spectrum E, Policosanol, fish oil cap, fresh flax seed, multi vitamin, Lovastatin 20 mg, Enalapril 10 mg 4/05:140 lbs (highest weight 309), 5' tall /age 67, cappie@... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 23, 2005 Report Share Posted April 23, 2005 Ah yes Alan but you said you had yet to hear from anyone who had lost the weight & still felt it was not necessary for diabetes control. Well I HAVE lost the weight & I explained how it did not make much of a difference for my diabetes. Now It DID make a difference in my blood pressure & also in my joint stress & in my ability to walk & live as an acceptable social human being. & for that I am extremely happy that I did lose the weight. However I was very much disapointed when, as my weight went lower & lower, the expected & promised changes that the medicos said would happen DIDN'T -- not at 10% body loss not at 20% not at 30% -- not at all. I did not have diabetes for a long time either. Because of my weight, my doc kept a close watch on my bg's. I had an A1c done every year & was always below 7% usually around 6 or 6.5. Only after cervical surgery left me unable to do all the walking I had done previously, did it go over 7% & I knew it right away because I recognized the symptoms. I immediately quit eating the " whites " & had lost 20lbs just by doing that by the time I got to the doctor 4 weeks later. The weight loss I achieved came about by the change in my eating for my disease NOT because I was trying to lose weight per se. cappie Greater Boston Area T-2 10/02 1/05 A1c: 5.4 = 115 mean glu 50-100 carb diet, walking, Metformin ALA/EPO, Coq10, B12, ALC, Vit C Cal/mag, low dose Biotin, full spectrum E, Policosanol, fish oil cap, fresh flax seed, multi vitamin, Lovastatin 20 mg, Enalapril 10 mg 4/05:140 lbs (highest weight 309), 5' tall /age 67, cappie@... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 23, 2005 Report Share Posted April 23, 2005 > my doc kept a close watch on my bg's. I had an > A1c done every year & was always below 7% usually around 6 or 6.5. Your doctor should have started treating you sooner. If so, the weight loss might have had more effect. My endo says that when she sees someone with an A1c of 5.9 she knows they're diabetic. But today they're saying normal A1c's are in the 4s, and they used to say up to 6. So it may have been the climate of the times rather than serious physician error. Gretchen Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 23, 2005 Report Share Posted April 23, 2005 > my doc kept a close watch on my bg's. I had an > A1c done every year & was always below 7% usually around 6 or 6.5. Your doctor should have started treating you sooner. If so, the weight loss might have had more effect. My endo says that when she sees someone with an A1c of 5.9 she knows they're diabetic. But today they're saying normal A1c's are in the 4s, and they used to say up to 6. So it may have been the climate of the times rather than serious physician error. Gretchen Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 23, 2005 Report Share Posted April 23, 2005 > my doc kept a close watch on my bg's. I had an > A1c done every year & was always below 7% usually around 6 or 6.5. Your doctor should have started treating you sooner. If so, the weight loss might have had more effect. My endo says that when she sees someone with an A1c of 5.9 she knows they're diabetic. But today they're saying normal A1c's are in the 4s, and they used to say up to 6. So it may have been the climate of the times rather than serious physician error. Gretchen Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 23, 2005 Report Share Posted April 23, 2005 Perhaps Gretchen. In any event it must be very discouraging to others who have been led to expect that weight loss will make a huge difference in their diabetes only for some to find out that it " just ain't happenin " . I feel that medicos & others shd stop leading people to expect that weight loss will absolutely make a difference & instead make sure to add that caveat--it MAY. I am not against weight loss. If one can do it & sustain both the process & maintenance then that is great, It is a damn hard thing tho--an ongoing battle every day for the rest of your life, don't kid yourself that it isn't. I've done it & am never giving up the hard earned rewards but that is a seperate issue from my diabetes control. Every mouthful I take I must decide are the calories & carbs going to keep me where I want to be? So far so good. cappie Greater Boston Area T-2 10/02 1/05 A1c: 5.4 = 115 mean glu 50-100 carb diet, walking, Metformin ALA/EPO, Coq10, B12, ALC, Vit C Cal/mag, low dose Biotin, full spectrum E, Policosanol, fish oil cap, fresh flax seed, multi vitamin, Lovastatin 20 mg, Enalapril 10 mg 4/05:140 lbs (highest weight 309), 5' tall /age 67, cappie@... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 23, 2005 Report Share Posted April 23, 2005 Perhaps Gretchen. In any event it must be very discouraging to others who have been led to expect that weight loss will make a huge difference in their diabetes only for some to find out that it " just ain't happenin " . I feel that medicos & others shd stop leading people to expect that weight loss will absolutely make a difference & instead make sure to add that caveat--it MAY. I am not against weight loss. If one can do it & sustain both the process & maintenance then that is great, It is a damn hard thing tho--an ongoing battle every day for the rest of your life, don't kid yourself that it isn't. I've done it & am never giving up the hard earned rewards but that is a seperate issue from my diabetes control. Every mouthful I take I must decide are the calories & carbs going to keep me where I want to be? So far so good. cappie Greater Boston Area T-2 10/02 1/05 A1c: 5.4 = 115 mean glu 50-100 carb diet, walking, Metformin ALA/EPO, Coq10, B12, ALC, Vit C Cal/mag, low dose Biotin, full spectrum E, Policosanol, fish oil cap, fresh flax seed, multi vitamin, Lovastatin 20 mg, Enalapril 10 mg 4/05:140 lbs (highest weight 309), 5' tall /age 67, cappie@... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 24, 2005 Report Share Posted April 24, 2005 In a message dated 4/23/05 5:45:42 PM Eastern Daylight Time, loralgt@... writes: > >Because there is your point. Because " very few " can do it, in your >opinion, that makes it not worth trying or medically invalid. >>>>>> Well, I'll tell you, when a doctor gives me a cure or a treatment that works for as few as 5% of the people who use it, when the benefits of said cure or treatment are not equally effective and are sometimes completely ineffective even for those 5%, and when the benefits or cure can be had by alternate means that are much more effective and will succeed in the vast majority of cases, you're right, I find that proposed cure or treatment medically invalid. You mention other things affected by obesity. Sure, there are many correlations between obesity and other diseases. Causation is more difficult to prove. Yes, obese people are more prone to diabetes. Is it the obesity that causes the diabetes or the diabetes and insulin resistance that causes the obesity? Most of the things blamed on obesity are actually diseases of inactivity and poor eating habits. For a good read, try Glenn Gaesser, Big Fat Lies. He has no axe to grind, so, according to you, he might be worth listening to. He's not fat. For some people, changing their eating habits and their exercise habits leads to weight loss. For some of those people it leads to a lot of weight loss. But for all the people who do make those changes, untold improvements in health will probably occur, with or without weight loss. If obesity caused all the things you and others want to attribute to it, how do you figure on so many obese people not having those diseases and so many non-obese people having them? >We will never agree, because you are more interested in finding ways >to rationalise fat acceptance than doing the hard work of fat >reduction. OK, that's your choice, there is no blame or guilt involved >here - just stop pretending that it's healthy. >>>>>>>>>. Oh, I see. Because I am fat, I must not be objective and must have some agenda that means my views are not valid. FYI, I, and most obese people, if not all, have done the hard work of fat reduction over and over again. Please do tell me why it hasn't worked? Am I lazy? I go to a gym usually 5 days a week for swimming or treadmill. I have two dogs that I walk three times a day. In summer I hike and kayak and swim. In winter I have snowball fights. Have I been sitting around eating bon bons and jelly doughnuts? I don't think so. But I've always been fat, even as a child. My brother wasn't fat. Why is that? We grew up in the same household, eating the same foods, even had the same parents? There are no studies saying that the formerly obese live longer than the obese. Mostly that's because there are so few formerly obese, but it's also because stringent efforts to lose weight and keep it off can lead to other problems, including eating disorders. Also, since most of the obese have lost and gained for ten, twenty, thirty years or more, there has been damage done to their bodies in the form of heart stresses, and who knows what else. >On a personal level, the fact that many others have been unable to >achieve something has never been an acceptable reason for me not to >.try. If just one has achieved it - that is enough to show that it is >possible. >>>>>>. Well, sure, if you must support your own efforts at doing something, hey, have a field day. Maybe for you, the model of gain lose gain lose gain lose works for you. I present a different point of view, one borne out by the millions and millions of fat people in this universe for whom good health doesn't come only with reduction of numbers on a scale. I notice that you say you work hard at weight loss. Why do you still have diabetes? Is your cholesterol high? Why? What about blood pressure? It's not as simple as the medical establishment would have us think it is. I notice you're a man. That makes you more susceptible to certain diseases. Why not become a woman? I know it fits with your thinking that the only reason fat people are fat is that they aren't working hard enough, but you ought to rethink that, as it doesn't really make any sense at all. Stacey Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 24, 2005 Report Share Posted April 24, 2005 The problem with the studies you post is that they don't allow for the difference betweena well controlled fat diabetic and a poorly controlled one. They don't allow for the obese individual with an a1c n the under 6 range, who exercises regularly. Therefore, for me, the studies don't have much usefulness. I do know that the medical establishment dismisses the fat diabetic as not worthy of decent care, and that doesn't get factored in either. We all know doctors who are satisfied with what would be, for most of us, high a1c results, but the doctors don't suggest any different treatment or approach. They do say lose weight, however. Stacey Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 24, 2005 Report Share Posted April 24, 2005 At 10:32 AM 4/24/05, staceypmartin@... wrote: >We all know doctors who are satisfied with what would be, for most of us, >high a1c results, but the doctors don't suggest any different treatment or >approach. They do say lose weight, however. What I want is a study explaining why it can take 3 weeks to lose 6 pounds but 2 days to get it back again (bark, growl, howl). sky-the-unmeaningful Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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