Re: What am I missing here?

[Guest guest]

....our ancesters also consumed fermented veggies ( one of the only ways to preserve them pre-refridgeration ) ...so even the non-dairy cultures had friendly "cultures" going in daily ...( Koreans eat kimchee with every meal ...so 3 times per day)

[Guest guest]

Even if true carnivores guts are sterile, we aren't really true carnivores, are we? If we evolved from primates, then we would more likely be true fruit and leaf eaters than meat eaters. AlyssaAt 06:25 PM 5/3/2009, you wrote:Well if you read the link AJ provided, you will notice that bacteria producing Vit. B12 is really of no use since it is carried out in the colon which does not absorb nutrients.I read the Second Opinion web site regularly.I agree with him on many things, but I must respectfully disagree with Second Opinion that the guts of true carnivores are sterile and that we don't need no stinkin' bacteria in our guts.I'm currently treating my Shadow for a massive yeast infection resulting from antibiotics for a UTI. He's on a raw diet. He needs, badly, the probiotics to deal with that yeast. There's so much research on gut bacteria going on right now, it makes my head spin. I don't pretend to Be All and Know All, but I do know that having the right balance of bacteria in our guts is critical to good health.— Marilyn New Orleans, Louisiana, USA Undiagnosed IBS since 1976, SCD since 2001 Darn Good SCD Cook No Human Children Shadow & Sunny Longhair Dachshund

[Guest guest]

At 03:21 PM 5/4/2009, you wrote:

Even if true carnivores guts are

sterile, we aren't really true carnivores, are we? If we evolved from

primates, then we would more likely be true fruit and leaf eaters

than meat eaters.

Actually, we, like dogs, are opportunistic omnivores. If it's there, and

it doesn't outright kill us when we eat it, we're apt to continue eating

it.

My husband claims dogs moved in with humans because they liked our

cooking.

—

Marilyn

New

Orleans, Louisiana, USA

Undiagnosed IBS since 1976, SCD since 2001

Darn Good SCD Cook

No Human Children

Shadow & Sunny Longhair Dachshund

[Guest guest]

Humans can live on a 100% meat diet; we cannot live on a 100% vegetable diet

without supplementation because of that pesky B12 thing. Whether one or the

other- or some gradient between the two points- is what will make one live in

perfect health forever and ever is a subject that will be debated in perpetuity.

While there are some purely carnivorous primates (all tarsiers, I seem to

recall), and there are some pure herbivores, the majority are somewhere in the

middle- omnivores, like most humans.

The Weston Price people- arguably one of the few groups that has their head

screwed on straight when it comes to human nutrition- has some good comments on

the subject:

http://westonaprice.org/traditional_diets/gorilla.html

Note also the intrinsic differences between primates that lean strongly towards

herbivory (i.e., gorillas) and humans. Their stomachs and intestinal tracts are

larger and longer, respectively, amongst other factors.

Given the type and nature of maladies that strike humans after chronic exposure

to large quantities of vegetable matter ( " Good Calories, Bad Calories " by

Taubes, kids!), it would seem likely that humans trend more towards carnivory.

At the very least, consumption of large quantities of grains, starchy foods, and

sugary foods- all of which have been bred for hundreds to thousands of years to

produce the largest, starchiest, and sweetest fruits- is simply not good for us.

Could you imagine what would happen to a zookeeper found feeding " Total "

breakfast cereal to their gorillas? Or any other breakfast cereal?

That's a firin'. So why's it so good for your kids?

-AJ

>

> Even if true carnivores guts are sterile, we aren't really true

> carnivores, are we? If we evolved from primates, then we would more

> likely be true fruit and leaf eaters than meat eaters.

>

> Alyssa

>

[Guest guest]

I think it all depends on the person. I know a guy who says he's been living on a 100% raw diet for years with no health problems. My guess is that some people can find exactly the right diet to live on 100% raw foods, but others can't. However, I do agree with you that starches and grains don't seem to be the best suited to human. In nature, if we came upon a wheat plant, we couldn't just eat it, like an apple or a piece of spinach. We would have to husk it, grind it, boil it...not natural!AlyssaHumans can live on a 100% meat diet; we cannot live on a 100% vegetable diet without supplementation because of that pesky B12 thing. Whether one or the other- or some gradient between the two points- is what will make one live in perfect health forever and ever is a subject that will be debated in perpetuity.While there are some purely carnivorous primates (all tarsiers, I seem to recall), and there are some pure herbivores, the majority are somewhere in the middle- omnivores, like most humans.The Weston Price people- arguably one of the few groups that has their head screwed on straight when it comes to human nutrition- has some good comments on the subject:http://westonaprice.org/traditional_diets/gorilla.htmlNote also the intrinsic differences between primates that lean strongly towards herbivory (i.e., gorillas) and humans. Their stomachs and intestinal tracts are larger and longer, respectively, amongst other factors.Given the type and nature of maladies that strike humans after chronic exposure to large quantities of vegetable matter ("Good Calories, Bad Calories" by Taubes, kids!), it would seem likely that humans trend more towards carnivory. At the very least, consumption of large quantities of grains, starchy foods, and sugary foods- all of which have been bred for hundreds to thousands of years to produce the largest, starchiest, and sweetest fruits- is simply not good for us.Could you imagine what would happen to a zookeeper found feeding "Total" breakfast cereal to their gorillas? Or any other breakfast cereal?That's a firin'. So why's it so good for your kids?-AJ>> Even if true carnivores guts are sterile, we aren't really true > carnivores, are we? If we evolved from primates, then we would more > likely be true fruit and leaf eaters than meat eaters.> > Alyssa>

[Guest guest]

AJ,

I wonder whose idea it was to call cereal "breakfast cereal"? I suspect someone at one of the cereal manufacturers got a big bonus for that idea.

Actually it should probably be called "dessert cereal".

Phyllis

CD

http://westonaprice.org/traditional_diets/gorilla.htmlNote also the intrinsic differences between primates that lean strongly towards herbivory (i.e., gorillas) and humans. Their stomachs and intestinal tracts are larger and longer, respectively, amongst other factors.Given the type and nature of maladies that strike humans after chronic exposure to large quantities of vegetable matter ("Good Calories, Bad Calories" by Taubes, kids!), it would seem likely that humans trend more towards carnivory. At the very least, consumption of large quantities of grains, starchy foods, and sugary foods- all of which have been bred for hundreds to thousands of years to produce the largest, starchiest, and sweetest fruits- is simply not good for us.Could you imagine what would happen to a zookeeper found feeding "Total" breakfast cereal to their gorillas? Or any other breakfast cereal?That's a firin'. So why's it so good for your kids?-AJ>> Even if true carnivores guts are sterile, we aren't really true > carnivores, are we? If we evolved from primates, then we would more > likely be true fruit and leaf eaters than meat eaters.> > Alyssa>

[Guest guest]

>

> What's the longest you've stayed on the SCD?

>

When I first started it I was on it for over a year. Not perfectly strict mind

you. I had to travel occasionally for my job, and I couldn't avoid ingesting

illegals during those times. At some point I decided to get back on a normal

diet and everything seemed to be fine for a while. Unfortunately, over time,

symptoms returned. The interesting thing was that the amount of time I could

tolerate illegals correlated with the amount of time I was on SCD prior to

beginning the illegals.

>

> That said I think you're suggesting a cure is something that will

> allow you to each sugar/starch. IMHO it could be that sugar/starch

> are not a natural part of the human diet so the only cure is to avoid

> them assuming you have a propensity for IBD

Yes I agree about sugar/starch not being part of the natural diet, but most

normal people are ok on it. We just happen to have a condition where we cannot

tolerate them and if the cause is indeed a microbe and not something genetic (or

epigenetic) then a " cure " may indeed be possible. I realize that genetically we

may be pre-disposed to such bacteria, but really there is no evidence for this.

No one has compared the genetic profile of normal vs. IBD patients, at least not

that I am aware of.

>

>

> I think there's a noteworthy body of knowledge, I just don't happen to have

it.

>

I have seen a lot of such papers addressing these issues and the problem is most

are way too specific and focus on a particular matter that does not address the

main issues of IBD. Can't blame them of course, because a disease such as this

is very complex. The bottom line problem is the same problem that most health

science has, there is a disjoint of the basic molecular research from the

clinical research. There needs to be a way of integrating the two, and this is

just beginning to happen in areas such a cancer therapy, and some progress is

being made there.

[Guest guest]

I don't think that you can say that the SCD is a cure. Sure it removes a lot of

the problems for those people that it works for. But remember the people that

it doesn't work for. If it were a cure, then it should cure them too. And if

it is only that people were never meant to eat starches, what about the billions

of people that eat starches every day? Why don't they get sick?

Doctors tend to view the question of a cure as a black and white issue. If it

is a cure, then you can apply it like a pill and fix the problem. If there are

people that it does not help, then there is that against it. If there are

people that get sick despite being on the diet, that's another question. Then

there are the people that can eat starches and sugars after being on the diet

long enough and the people that eat starches and sugars and don't get sick right

away despite a diagnosis of Crohn's. There are other factors that complicate

the issue. Despite the careful following of the diet, you can still make

yourself sick. Just take aspirin regularly and find some stressful situations

to live in, drink alcohol and eat at the Ptomaine Palace restaurant. Any of

those could induce a flare. The SCD diet may help you resist the negatives for

a while, but eventually you would get ill. The people that eat starches and

sugars have less of a cushion because they have bacteria in their gut that will

trigger a flare more quickly. But even just damaging the gut tissue will do the

trick because of the autoimmune problem. It does not go away, it just lies

dormant until the conditions are there.

> An issue that comes up in the medical community is the definition of

> " cure. " Is it a cure if the condition goes away with, say, the SCD

> but returns when sugar/starch are consumed? I say yes in the sense

> that if you break your leg and it heals, you're cured unless you break

> it again. Heck, the medical community calls a colectomy a cure. I

> mean, you can't have IBD without a B, right? :-)

>

> That said I think you're suggesting a cure is something that will

> allow you to each sugar/starch. IMHO it could be that sugar/starch

> are not a natural part of the human diet so the only cure is to avoid

> them assuming you have a propensity for IBD

>

> > Moreover, I don't think anyone knows a rat's ass about how gut flora work.

>

> I think there's a noteworthy body of knowledge, I just don't happen to have

it.

>

[Guest guest]

>

> Actually it should probably be called " dessert cereal " .

Chocolate Frosted Sugar Bombs. I'll send one American dollar to

whoever gets that [admittedly obscure] reference :-)

--

Cheers,

DF in MA

UC June '07

SCD Nov '08

[Guest guest]

Sounds like our poop before SCD =) heheAlyssaOn Mon, May 4, 2009 at 5:19 PM, Phyllis R. <prosey2msn> wrote:>> Actually it should probably be called "dessert cereal".Chocolate Frosted Sugar Bombs. I'll send one American dollar towhoever gets that [admittedly obscure] reference :-)-- Cheers,DF in MAUC June '07SCD Nov '08

[Guest guest]

> I realize that genetically we may be pre-disposed to such bacteria,

>but really there is no evidence for this. No one has compared the

>genetic profile of normal vs. IBD patients, at least not that I am

>aware of.

Er. NOD2/CARD15, among many genes, in fact. This one is probably the most

prominent.

http://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/478202

And what is NOD2 for? Immune response.

There are more; I can dig 'em up if you're interested.

-AJ

[Guest guest]

I realize that genetically we may be pre-disposed to such bacteria, but really there is no evidence for this. No one has compared the genetic profile of normal vs. IBD patients, at least not that I am aware of.Er. NOD2/CARD15, among many genes, in fact. This one is probably the most prominent.http://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/478202And what is NOD2 for? Immune response.There are more; I can dig 'em up if you're interested.Communicable Ulcerative Colitis Induced by T-bet Deficiency in the Innate Immune Systemhttp://www.hsph.harvard.edu/multimedia/video/2007/LaurieGlimcher/You should watch this presentation - shows why bacteria are able topenetrate the intestinal wall because of a genetic T-bet deficiency inpeople with UC:Mara

[Guest guest]

At 06:13 PM 5/4/2009, you wrote:

Chocolate Frosted Sugar Bombs.

I'll send one American dollar to

whoever gets that [admittedly obscure] reference

:-)

Calvin and Hobbes.

—

Marilyn

New

Orleans, Louisiana, USA

Undiagnosed IBS since 1976, SCD since 2001

Darn Good SCD Cook

No Human Children

Shadow & Sunny Longhair Dachshund

[Guest guest]

>

> I don't think that you can say that the SCD is a cure.

Fair enough -- let's call it remission.

> But remember the people

> that it doesn't work for. If it were a cure, then it should cure them too.

Irreparable damage? Other unique factors? Tomato/tomahto?

> And if it is only that people were never meant to eat starches, what about

> the billions of people that eat starches every day? Why don't they get sick?

Genetics. I tread cautiously with the concept of diseases and

genetics. There are very few disease with genetic cause but there are

many that will express due to genetic predisposition plus

environmental (diet, toxins, bad lifestyle choices) and other factors

-- injury, illness, anxiety (notice I didn't say stress -- that's a

topic for another time), etc.

> Then there are the people that can eat starches and sugars after

> being on the diet long enough

Microflora back where it should be, gut sufficiently healed.

> and the people that eat starches and sugars

> and don't get sick right away despite a diagnosis of Crohn's.

Thresholds.

> But

> even just damaging the gut tissue will do the trick because of the

> autoimmune problem. It does not go away, it just lies dormant until the

> conditions are there.

What type of damage?

--

Cheers,

DF in MA

UC June '07

SCD Nov '08

[Guest guest]

>

> The interesting thing was that

> the amount of time I could tolerate illegals correlated with the amount of

> time I was on SCD prior to beginning the illegals.

Yes, that's very interesting. It suggests the condition onsets over

time relative to your status, be it gut flora and/or amount of damage

to your gut. Essentially it's thresholds.

> if the cause is indeed a microbe and not something

> genetic (or epigenetic) then a " cure " may indeed be possible.

It's multifactorial -- genetic, environmental (maybe more too).

> I realize that

> genetically we may be pre-disposed to such bacteria, but really there is no

> evidence for this. No one has compared the genetic profile of normal vs. IBD

> patients, at least not that I am aware of.

Ebringer discusses it. See:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HLA-B27

--

Cheers,

DF in MA

UC June '07

SCD Nov '08

[Guest guest]

On Mon, May 4, 2009 at 7:40 PM, Wizop Marilyn L. Alm

wrote:

>

> Calvin and Hobbes.

Nicely played. Send me your address if you want :-)

--

Cheers,

DF in MA

UC June '07

SCD Nov '08

[Guest guest]

> > I realize that genetically we may be pre-disposed to such bacteria,

> >but really there is no evidence for this. No one has compared the

> >genetic profile of normal vs. IBD patients, at least not that I am

> >aware of.

>

> Er. NOD2/CARD15, among many genes, in fact. This one is probably the most

prominent.

>

> http://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/478202

>

> And what is NOD2 for? Immune response.

>

> There are more; I can dig 'em up if you're interested.

>

> -AJ

>

Problem is these are correlations, not causations. It may be that the

manifestation of Crohn's may cause the these mutations to occur and not the

other way around. The initial cause may be something else. This is why they

are careful to use the word " associated " throughout the manuscript. Interesting

all the same. Presumably these are not heritable mutations.

[Guest guest]

> > and the people that eat starches and sugars

> > and don't get sick right away despite a diagnosis of Crohn's.

>

> Thresholds.

>

> > But

> > even just damaging the gut tissue will do the trick because of the

> > autoimmune problem. It does not go away, it just lies dormant until the

> > conditions are there.

>

> What type of damage?

Anything that causes tissue degradation. It could be a scratch from a

colonoscopy, a bacterial infection (like food poisoning), NSAIDs - due to their

tendency to cause bleeding, even stress (it causes mast cells in the gut to

degranulate releasing a host of inflammatory molecules). The thought here is

that the damage or the cleanup process releases collagen fibers which then

trigger the autoimmune reaction associated with Crohn's. A healthy population

of good gut bacteria (Lactobacillus casei, I think) have been shown to protect

lab rats' guts from harm when exposed to chemical toxins, so eat your yogurt!

> Cheers,

> DF in MA

> UC June '07

> SCD Nov '08

>

[Guest guest]

My 2 cents - the illness has two faces: an immune response to a common

intestinal bacteria (never going away unless you can eliminate that bacteria or

restore the integrity of the intestinal lining which separates your immune

system from your gut bacteria) AND an autoimmune reaction triggered by

mis-identification of body tissues as a foreign antigen. This is also not going

away unless you can selectively destroy those autoimmune T cells (this is not as

impossible as it sounds - See:

Faustm\

an Labs).

What the SCD does is it minimizes the gut bacteria that cause the trouble and

enhances gut bacteria that protect (due to a form of immune system control)

against tissue destruction which can trigger the autoimmune response.

> > if the cause is indeed a microbe and not something

> > genetic (or epigenetic) then a " cure " may indeed be possible.

>

> It's multifactorial -- genetic, environmental (maybe more too).

>

> > I realize that

> > genetically we may be pre-disposed to such bacteria, but really there is no

> > evidence for this. No one has compared the genetic profile of normal vs. IBD

> > patients, at least not that I am aware of.

>

> Ebringer discusses it. See:

> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HLA-B27

>

> --

> Cheers,

> DF in MA

> UC June '07

> SCD Nov '08

>

[Guest guest]

> > > I realize that genetically we may be pre-disposed to such bacteria,

> > >but really there is no evidence for this. No one has compared the

> > >genetic profile of normal vs. IBD patients, at least not that I am

> > >aware of.

> >

> > Er. NOD2/CARD15, among many genes, in fact. This one is probably the most

prominent.

> >

> > http://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/478202

> >

> > And what is NOD2 for? Immune response.

> >

> > There are more; I can dig 'em up if you're interested.

> >

> > -AJ

> >

>

> Problem is these are correlations, not causations. It may be that the

manifestation of Crohn's may cause the these mutations to occur and not the

other way around. The initial cause may be something else. This is why they

are careful to use the word " associated " throughout the manuscript. Interesting

all the same. Presumably these are not heritable mutations.

>

You stated there were no comparisons that you were aware of; you didn't ask for

smoking guns. In fact, when it comes to smoking guns, until 2003 or 2004, there

were no papers out there that came out and said, " SMOKING CAUSES CANCER. " That's

right- just hints and drips and drabs and associations. Indeed, one of the best

essays on the subject of " X causes Y " is the AIDS/HIV relationship by .

Famous bit of work:

http://www.skepticfiles.org/skmag/32harris.htm

But if you want genetic associations with respect to CD, they're out there. NOD2

is responsible for immune response to bacterial lipopolysaccharides, and the

Strober paper provides excellent insights as to the biochemical mechanisms and

its role in Crohn's.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19079230

That's just one of several. If you need more, I got 'em.

-AJ

[Guest guest]

> > And if it is only that people were never meant to eat starches, what about

> > the billions of people that eat starches every day? Why don't they get sick?

I'd like to respond to this, because FAR MORE people get sick on grains every

day than you think.

This isn't just about IBS/IBD, or Crohn's, or colitis. There are studies linking

our very poor standard American diet to many, many conditions. Autoimmune

diseases like rheumatoid arthritis -- I myself have it, and I had silent gut

dysfunction to go along with it.

My son has autism. How many moms of kids with autism have you met who also have

IBS/IBD? or they're morbidly obese (a sign of severely damaged digestion)? I've

met celiac mothers with autistic children, other moms with RA and autistic kids.

ADD/ADHD has been helped by SCD as well. ME/CFS has been helped by this diet.

Ever wonder why everybody needs glasses these days? There are studies linking

high levels of starches to poor eyesight in children. Children are dying from

lack of protein in foreign countries due to an overconsumption of cheap grains.

It's been recommended that people with MS go on a paleo-type diet. There have

been some studies showing molecular mimicry may play a role, where the body gets

confused and thinks a certain naturally occurring bacteria should be attacked.

What about rampant rates of diabetes? Grains throw your blood sugar completely

out of whack. A small study CURED people of type 2 diabetes when they went on a

paleo-type diet. But what do conventional doctors suggest? To eat LESS protein.

What do diabetics then do? They eat more starch, and become even sicker.

And as I said above, the morbidly obese -- and here in America, boy we have a

lot of those people. I think nearly every morbidly obese person is gut damaged.

My aunt is ill, and very obese. Photos from thirty years ago show her to be a

beautiful, slender, healthy looking girl. I send her simple recipes and I try to

give her the strength to feed herself well, but there is only so much I can do

from 2,000 miles away. She tells me she doesn't eat a lot, and I believe her,

because that's exactly what happens to some people when they can't digest their

food properly. I myself fought with weight issues for years, and it was due to

addiction to starches as well as undiagnosed gut dysfunction -- I had no

symptoms to speak of.

My sister has IBS. I have tried to tell her that she needs to stop eating

grains, gluten at the very least, because since I'm intolerant, there's a good

chance she is as well. She's thinking of starting her own bakery. *smacks

forehead*

OK, I'm done now. LOL.

B.

ASD son, RA self, SCD Nov. 2007

http://scdgirl.blogspot.com

[Guest guest]

actually, primates eat loads of insects, which are very high in protein ( maggots = 98% protein!) & they do eat scavenged meat sometimes too...so their not vegetarian...

[Guest guest]

Good point...but EEW maggots, I could not eat a maggot even if I was dying from hunger! lol =DAlyssaactually, primates eat loads of insects, which are very high in protein ( maggots = 98% protein!) & they do eat scavenged meat sometimes too...so their not vegetarian...

[Guest guest]

Good point...but EEW maggots, I could not eat a maggot even if I was dying from hunger! lol =DAlyssaactually, primates eat loads of insects, which are very high in protein ( maggots = 98% protein!) & they do eat scavenged meat sometimes too...so their not vegetarian...

[Guest guest]

>

> > > And if it is only that people were never meant to eat starches, what about

> > > the billions of people that eat starches every day? Why don't they get

sick?

>

> I'd like to respond to this, because FAR MORE people get sick on grains every

day than you think.

>

> http://scdgirl.blogspot.com

Well, yes... I was only trying to play devil's advocate for the doctors' point

of view. As far as they're concerned, everyone should come down with Crohn's if

diet is the problem. They still don't have a handle on the complexity of

genetics, environment and diet and the many outcomes that are possible from

varied influences.