Re: What am I missing here?

May 3, 2009

> If SCD is supposed to starve the " bad " bacteria of nutrients, then

> wouldn't it also do the same with the " good " bacteria?

Yep - that's why you need the big intake of probiotics.

> And if you say that eating yogurt (or other things) replenishes the

> good bacteria, that would still only be a few types of bacteria

> replenished.

Yep - but some of the most community minded.

> The gut contains up to a 1000 different species of bacteria, most of

> which would be starving due to SCD.

Well actually they live in biofilm " condominiums " and to some extent

they

are still able to steal food from undigested remains.

> If you say that some monosaccharides or fiber which are not absorbed

> by our intestines goes on to feed the bacteria, well these should

> feed both the good and the bad bacteria no?

Yep.

>

> What am I missing?

Nothing.

That's why it is a slow process - and it sustains itself

best when you make SCD a way of life.

Mara

May 3, 2009

>

> Yep - that's why you need the big intake of probiotics.

>

> Yep - but some of the most community minded.

>

> Well actually they live in biofilm " condominiums " and to some extent

> they

> are still able to steal food from undigested remains.

>

> Mara

>

Hey thanks for reply. The thing is probiotics and yogurt will have 3 strains at

most let's say. What about the other 997 that are starving? How will they be

replenished? And if they are able to steal food, then both the good and the bad

bacteria steal food. So how does that work with regards to both of these

points? I realize you may not have the answers, I was just thinking aloud.

May 3, 2009

Here's one for you: why are you trying to feed bacteria in your gut? Do you have

hooves? Fermentative digestion is characteristic of ungulates. There are vast

differences between the digestive systems of carnivores- which humans strongly

trend towards- and herbivores. I give you the writings of a madman who knows of

what he speaks:

http://www.second-opinions.co.uk/carn_herb_comparison.html

The chart on page 4 is illuminating. Next time someone tells you veganism is

good, ask how their serum cyanocobalamin levels are. There is no good vegetable

source of vitamin B12; most " vegans " get it from food-in-a-box supplemented with

the critical nutrient.

You cannot easily kill bacteria by starving them; otherwise, everyone who was

needle-fed (total parenteral nutrition) would have to have their GI " rebooted "

after a week. You simply change the ratios around.

But let's look at this from another standpoint: a hundred years ago, when your

ancestors consumed bacon and eggs for breakfast, fish and milk for lunch, with a

steak-and-cheese-and-butter dinner (maybe with a potato and a slice of cracked

wheat bread), and I suggested to you that you eat more starch, sugar, and

vegetable matter to make more bacteria grow in your gut- would you recoil in

horror at having the idea of MORE bugs growing in your intestines?

Two of our dogs are fed exclusively raw food: beef heart, chicken necks, boiled

beef marrow guts, eggs, turkey backs, you name it. (In not being cooked, the

bones are consumed with the flesh, and present no danger from splintering unlike

cooked bones.) In comparison to those dogs we have that are NOT raw-fed, their

stool is small, firm, and much more... " natural, " for want of a better word. The

other dogs tend to have loose stool of large volume. One wonders what that does

over the long term.

(Speaking from personal experience, now with the smaller stool and less fiber,

my hemorrhoids bother me not at all.)

So- vegetarian and vegan malarkey aside, what does having more bugs in your gut

do for you?

-AJ

>

> If SCD is supposed to starve the " bad " bacteria of nutrients, then wouldn't it

also do the same with the " good " bacteria? And if you say that eating yogurt

(or other things) replenishes the good bacteria, that would still only be a few

types of bacteria replenished. The gut contains up to a 1000 different species

of bacteria, most of which would be starving due to SCD. If you say that some

monosaccharides or fiber which are not absorbed by our intestines goes on to

feed the bacteria, well these should feed both the good and the bad bacteria no?

>

> What am I missing?

>

> B

>

May 3, 2009

Well, isn't that why we take probiotics? And eat yogurt? Isn't it to get more bacteria in our gut? Now I'm confused. I thought we WANTED a lot of good bacteria in our gut!AlyssaHere's one for you: why are you trying to feed bacteria in your gut? Do you have hooves? Fermentative digestion is characteristic of ungulates. There are vast differences between the digestive systems of carnivores- which humans strongly trend towards- and herbivores. I give you the writings of a madman who knows of what he speaks:http://www.second-opinions.co.uk/carn_herb_comparison.htmlThe chart on page 4 is illuminating. Next time someone tells you veganism is good, ask how their serum cyanocobalamin levels are. There is no good vegetable source of vitamin B12; most "vegans" get it from food-in-a-box supplemented with the critical nutrient.You cannot easily kill bacteria by starving them; otherwise, everyone who was needle-fed (total parenteral nutrition) would have to have their GI "rebooted" after a week. You simply change the ratios around.But let's look at this from another standpoint: a hundred years ago, when your ancestors consumed bacon and eggs for breakfast, fish and milk for lunch, with a steak-and-cheese-and-butter dinner (maybe with a potato and a slice of cracked wheat bread), and I suggested to you that you eat more starch, sugar, and vegetable matter to make more bacteria grow in your gut- would you recoil in horror at having the idea of MORE bugs growing in your intestines?Two of our dogs are fed exclusively raw food: beef heart, chicken necks, boiled beef marrow guts, eggs, turkey backs, you name it. (In not being cooked, the bones are consumed with the flesh, and present no danger from splintering unlike cooked bones.) In comparison to those dogs we have that are NOT raw-fed, their stool is small, firm, and much more... "natural," for want of a better word. The other dogs tend to have loose stool of large volume. One wonders what that does over the long term.(Speaking from personal experience, now with the smaller stool and less fiber, my hemorrhoids bother me not at all.)So- vegetarian and vegan malarkey aside, what does having more bugs in your gut do for you?-AJ>> If SCD is supposed to starve the "bad" bacteria of nutrients, then wouldn't it also do the same with the "good" bacteria? And if you say that eating yogurt (or other things) replenishes the good bacteria, that would still only be a few types of bacteria replenished. The gut contains up to a 1000 different species of bacteria, most of which would be starving due to SCD. If you say that some monosaccharides or fiber which are not absorbed by our intestines goes on to feed the bacteria, well these should feed both the good and the bad bacteria no?> > What am I missing?> > B>

May 3, 2009

Well, think about it this way. In a perfectly functioning body, our body would digest whatever we threw at it, INCLUDING disaccerides. There would only be good bacteria in our gut and they would be thriving. If you think about it this way, the good bacteria's food CAN'T be the undigested disaccherides, because in a normal situation there wouldn't be ANYTHING undigested for them to eat, and yet they would still have to be there. It seems to me that only the bad bacteria are being starved by the SCD. I do agree with you that there are over 1000 different bacteria in our gut and I wish I could replenish them all with yogurt! My guess is that they'll just slowly replenish themselves as our gut heals.AlyssaIf SCD is supposed to starve the "bad" bacteria of nutrients, then wouldn't it also do the same with the "good" bacteria? And if you say that eating yogurt (or other things) replenishes the good bacteria, that would still only be a few types of bacteria replenished. The gut contains up to a 1000 different species of bacteria, most of which would be starving due to SCD. If you say that some monosaccharides or fiber which are not absorbed by our intestines goes on to feed the bacteria, well these should feed both the good and the bad bacteria no?What am I missing?B

May 3, 2009

At 05:00 PM 5/3/2009, you wrote:

Well, isn't that why we take

probiotics? And eat yogurt? Isn't it to get more bacteria in our gut? Now

I'm confused. I thought we WANTED a lot of good bacteria in our gut!

We do want the good bacteria. Good bacteria can do lots of things for us,

inlcuding manufacturing B12 and other vitamins for us.

However, too many of the good bacteria could be an issue.

What the real trick is, is to get the right balance between good and

evil, as it were... then we'll be working on harmony.

—

Marilyn

New

Orleans, Louisiana, USA

Undiagnosed IBS since 1976, SCD since 2001

Darn Good SCD Cook

No Human Children

Shadow & Sunny Longhair Dachshund

May 3, 2009

>

> It seems to me that only the bad bacteria are being starved by the

> SCD.

Nope. Objectively, that's not true. That's why we have to keep

replacing the

good ones.

Mara

May 3, 2009

>

> Well, think about it this way. In a perfectly functioning body, our

> body would digest whatever we threw at it, INCLUDING disaccerides.

> There would only be good bacteria in our gut and they would be

> thriving. If you think about it this way, the good bacteria's food

> CAN'T be the undigested disaccherides, because in a normal situation

> there wouldn't be ANYTHING undigested for them to eat, and yet they

> would still have to be there. It seems to me that only the bad

> bacteria are being starved by the SCD. I do agree with you that there

> are over 1000 different bacteria in our gut and I wish I could

> replenish them all with yogurt! My guess is that they'll just slowly

> replenish themselves as our gut heals.

>

> Alyssa

>

But if you say that good bacteria's food is NOT undigested carbs, then you are

saying that their food IS digested carbs. But the majority of such carbs would

never reach them since they would be absorbed by us!

May 3, 2009

>

> >

>

> > It seems to me that only the bad bacteria are being starved by the

> > SCD.

>

> Nope. Objectively, that's not true. That's why we have to keep

> replacing the

> good ones.

>

> Mara

>

But you are only replacing 3 types of the good ones!!

May 3, 2009

>

> Here's one for you: why are you trying to feed bacteria in your gut? Do you

have hooves? Fermentative digestion is characteristic of ungulates.

>

> You cannot easily kill bacteria by starving them; otherwise, everyone who was

needle-fed (total parenteral nutrition) would have to have their GI " rebooted "

after a week. You simply change the ratios around.

>

> So- vegetarian and vegan malarkey aside, what does having more bugs in your

gut do for you?

>

> -AJ

>

So what you are postulating is that there is no such thing as " good " or " bad "

bacteria, and we should attempt to starve all bacteria in an attempt to minimize

their residence in the colon.

Fair enough. That at least makes sense in terms of what SCD is purportedly

doing. Although it does fly in the face of the theory that certain bacteria are

beneficial to us.

May 3, 2009

>

> >Well, isn't that why we take probiotics? And eat

> >yogurt? Isn't it to get more bacteria in our

> >gut? Now I'm confused. I thought we WANTED a lot of good bacteria in our gut!

>

> We do want the good bacteria. Good bacteria can

> do lots of things for us, inlcuding manufacturing

> B12 and other vitamins for us.

>

> However, too many of the good bacteria could be an issue.

>

> What the real trick is, is to get the right

> balance between good and evil, as it were... then we'll be working on harmony.

>

> — Marilyn

> New Orleans, Louisiana, USA

> Undiagnosed IBS since 1976, SCD since 2001

> Darn Good SCD Cook

> No Human Children

> Shadow & Sunny Longhair Dachshund

>

Well if you read the link AJ provided, you will notice that bacteria producing

Vit. B12 is really of no use since it is carried out in the colon which does not

absorb nutrients.

May 3, 2009

>

> >Well, isn't that why we take probiotics? And eat

> >yogurt? Isn't it to get more bacteria in our

> >gut? Now I'm confused. I thought we WANTED a lot of good bacteria in our gut!

>

> We do want the good bacteria. Good bacteria can

> do lots of things for us, inlcuding manufacturing

> B12 and other vitamins for us.

>

> However, too many of the good bacteria could be an issue.

>

> What the real trick is, is to get the right

> balance between good and evil, as it were... then we'll be working on harmony.

>

> — Marilyn

> New Orleans, Louisiana, USA

> Undiagnosed IBS since 1976, SCD since 2001

> Darn Good SCD Cook

> No Human Children

> Shadow & Sunny Longhair Dachshund

>

Well if you read the link AJ provided, you will notice that bacteria producing

Vit. B12 is really of no use since it is carried out in the colon which does not

absorb nutrients.

May 3, 2009

Alyssa spaekth thusly:

>Well, isn't that why we take probiotics? And eat yogurt? Isn't it to

>get more bacteria in our gut? Now I'm confused. I thought we WANTED

>a lot of good bacteria in our gut!

In our cases (collectively), it would seem likely we're trying to displace

undesirable flora, the result of glutting ourselves (collectively) on too much

sugar, starch, and wheat. Starving the " bad " bugs is one part of it; physically

filling that niche with something less objectionable is another.

>

> So what you are postulating is that there is no such thing as

> " good " or " bad " bacteria, and we should attempt to starve all

>bacteria in an attempt to minimize their residence in the colon.

Most days I'm not sure what I'm saying. I make observations and, when decisions

arise, try to base them on what I've seen in the past. Had I to do it over

again, I'd eat like mom fed me: western Pennsylvanian coal miner fare, with nary

a potato chip or " Dorito " to be found in the pantry. It's probably why I got CD

late in life- trying to adapt to eating supposedly " healthier " wheat and

vegetable matter.

> Fair enough. That at least makes sense in terms of what SCD is

>purportedly doing. Although it does fly in the face of the theory

>that certain bacteria are beneficial to us.

This is true. There are undoubtedly gut bacteria that help us; some provide us

with precious B vitamins, for example- a product of their fermentation. But it

is questionable as to how much of this is needed; for example, when Stefansson

and company were put on the all-meat diet in Bellevue in 1928, their teeth

didn't fall out from scurvy as would normally happen in the absence of vitamin

C. Was it that there's more vitamin C in raw meat than is generally thought, or

does a meat-heavy diet preclude the need for supplemental vitamin C in the diet?

The absence of oranges in Eskimo circles speaks toward the latter.

I suppose what I'm saying is that many folks with CD and UC have a seriously

fouled-up microbial flora in their guts- seriously whacked out, badly enough

that there are apparently physicians who can give " fecal transplants " a go, and

manage to keep a straight face.

There are, of course, plenty of studies- many involving the vegetarian-to-vegan

Seventh Day Adventists- indicating there are vast differences in the flora of

the general population versus those that consume vegetable matter. One presumes

if they could find a largely carnivorous population to test, they would find

similar results; sadly, the Eskimo and Masai (among many populations that have

traditionally consumed very little vegetable matter, with marked success) have

been converted to the wheat-sugar-starch diet as " progress " creeps along.

At the most basal level- look at teeth. Now we need to add fluoride to the water

to keep dental caries at bay. Just TRY to get rotten teeth on flesh and bone

diets. Archaeologists all know this- societies trend towards agriculture, which

means more starch and sugar, more carbohydrates- and more dental caries. We know

this: the undesirable flora of the human mouth proliferate when presented with

carbs. The result? Tooth rot, plaque, and a host of problems including

gingivitis- which probably results in heart disease, among other problems. All

from sugary snacks!

That by no means assures the oral cavity is sterile; far from it- bites from

varanids and bears are exceedingly dangerous, despite their carnivorous ways.

But the flora are very different, and this is key. Change the diet, and the oral

flora change- with precipitous results.

Meanwhile, the American Heart Association, and the American Diabetes

Association, continue to foist upon us the idea that bread, cereal, and potatoes

will make us live forever. Look at this!

http://www.diabetes.org/food-nutrition-lifestyle/nutrition/meal-planning/diabete\

s-food-pyramid.jsp

The American Diabetes Association gives diabetics a food pyramid at which

cereals and grains are the base! They tell diabetics to EAT THE FOODS THAT

SLOWLY KILL THEM. Just keep pushin' that insulin, kid! Doctors need to pay their

bills, too, and amputating Auntie Feelman's foot just barely covers the down

payment on that Lexus!

Rant over. Additional rants are available for... aw, nevermind.

-AJ

May 3, 2009

>

> This is true. There are undoubtedly gut bacteria that help us; some provide us

with precious B vitamins, for example- a product of their fermentation. But it

is questionable as to how much of this is needed;

Moreover, the B vitamins produced by bacteria in the colon would be of little

use since they cannot be absorbed through the colon. So what actual " good " do

any gut bacteria do? I wonder if any.

May 3, 2009

>

>>

>>>

>>

>>> It seems to me that only the bad bacteria are being starved by the

>>> SCD.

>>

>> Nope. Objectively, that's not true. That's why we have to keep

>> replacing the

>> good ones.

>>

>> Mara

>>

>

> But you are only replacing 3 types of the good ones!!

yeah - there are other kinds but not all of them are helpful

for people with IBD. Or there are things like bifidus, which

has many varieties - and the effect of them all is not known.

It's an under researched field at the moment.

Mara

May 3, 2009

I would think that you need to control the bacteria that are more undesirable,

like C. difficile. The best way to do that is by promoting bacteria that

out-compete the bad guys and displace them from prominence in the gut bacterial

population. There is also the problem of limiting the bacteria that have

generated the auto-immune reaction. They (or their enzymes) will trigger

inflammation. The autoimmune reaction may be controlled somewhat because it

seems that it is collagens that are targeted. They are normally bound up in the

tissue matrix and it is only when injury or disease break down the tissue that

the autoimmune cells are triggered by collagen fibers.

The SCD will limit the growth of bacteria in the gut, but you will never

eliminate them, so you need to manage the kinds of bacteria in your gut. The

SCD does this in two ways - first, it limits the food supply for certain

bacteria (it does not eliminate cellulose, or even the starches that cause

problems - it just limits them to a low level). Second, it promotes beneficial

bacteria via SCD legal yogurt.

> So what you are postulating is that there is no such thing as " good " or " bad "

bacteria, and we should attempt to starve all bacteria in an attempt to minimize

their residence in the colon.

>

> Fair enough. That at least makes sense in terms of what SCD is purportedly

doing. Although it does fly in the face of the theory that certain bacteria are

beneficial to us.

>

May 3, 2009

>

The SCD does this in two ways - first, it limits the food supply for certain

bacteria (it does not eliminate cellulose, or even the starches that cause

problems - it just limits them to a low level). Second, it promotes beneficial

bacteria via SCD legal yogurt.

>

That would imply that bad bacteria and good bacteria live on different food

sources. Namely that bad bacteria feed on dissacharides and good bacteria not?

Is there any actual evidence for that?

As for the yogurt, let's assume out of the 1000 difference species of bacteria

only 10% are good just to be conservative. That means 100 are good and eating

yogurt replenishes 3 of them. So 97 will slowly be starved, just like all of

the bad bacteria. That just doesn't make sense.

May 3, 2009

" Had I to do it over

again, I'd eat like mom fed me: western Pennsylvanian coal miner fare, with nary

a potato chip or " Dorito " to be found in the pantry. It's probably why I got CD

late in life- trying to adapt to eating supposedly " healthier " wheat and

vegetable matter. "

I often marvel at my in-laws, in their 90's (thank G-d) doing well having lived

their lives on good ol' home style southern cooking lots of fried chicken,

gravy, mashed potatoes with gobs of butter, fried eggs....not a fresh piece of

fruit or vegetable in sight in their home. If I brought them a bad of apples..

Granny would turn them into a pie, a darned good one too! Money was tight and

they could not afford modern junk food.

I on the other hand was (and still am) the " health food queen " .....but now my

veggies and fruit are cooked, and I am considering becoming more of a carnivore

after reading this.

PJ

> >

>

> > So what you are postulating is that there is no such thing as

> > " good " or " bad " bacteria, and we should attempt to starve all

> >bacteria in an attempt to minimize their residence in the colon.

>

> Most days I'm not sure what I'm saying. I make observations and, when

decisions arise, try to base them on what I've seen in the past. Had I to do it

over again, I'd eat like mom fed me: western Pennsylvanian coal miner fare, with

nary a potato chip or " Dorito " to be found in the pantry. It's probably why I

got CD late in life- trying to adapt to eating supposedly " healthier " wheat and

vegetable matter.

>

> > Fair enough. That at least makes sense in terms of what SCD is

> >purportedly doing. Although it does fly in the face of the theory

> >that certain bacteria are beneficial to us.