RE: Re: The paper we all want to read

August 21, 2004

Hello jeneric46324,

Saturday, August 21, 2004, 8:29:17 PM, you wrote:

j> Sorry for the mis-information, usually research papers are in that

j> price range. Are you going to get it?

no- it seems to be a letter to the editor talking about the article by

Clyde et all in 2203 -see table of contents here

http://jama.ama-assn.org/content/vol291/issue12/index.dtl

http://jama.ama-assn.org/cgi/content/extract/291/12/1445

Synthetic Thyroxine vs Dessicated Thyroid

To the Editor: Dr Clyde and colleagues1 concluded that treatment of primary

hypothyroidism with combination levothyroxine plus liothyronine was not superior

to levothyroxine alone in terms of body weight, serum lipid levels, hypothyroid

symptoms, or cognitive performance. Although Clyde et al recommend that patients

should be treated with synthetic thyroid on the basis of cost, natural

desiccated thyroid is considerably less expensive. Thus, perhaps this would be

the most rational treatment choice.

M. Lichten, MD

EML@...

Detroit, Mich

1. Clyde PW, Harari AE, Getka EJ, Shakir KMM. Combined levothyroxine plus

liothyronine compared with levothyroxine alone in primary hypothyroidism: a

randomized controlled trial. JAMA. 2003;290:2952-2958. ABSTRACT/FULL TEXT

Letters Section Editor: J. Lurie, MD, PhD, Senior Editor.

JAMA. 2004;291:1445.

reply from clyde et al:

http://jama.ama-assn.org/cgi/content/extract/291/12/1445-a

you only get a bit of this letter

Dr Lichten seems to be an anti-aging Dr http://www.usdoctor.com/intro.htm

--

BTW It seems the JMA has a guest registration that gives free access

to 5 years of articles once they are six months old

Best regards,

Alison

http://www.alisonashwell.com

mailto:alison.ashwell@...

new work uploaded

http://www.artwanted.com/alisonashwell

August 21, 2004

Hello solntsepyati,

Saturday, August 21, 2004, 9:24:16 PM, you wrote:

s> All,

s> I have both the letter(Lichten) and the article (Clyde) in my hands

s> in hardcopy.

i copied the letter earlier : it was Dr Lichten recommending the use of

desiccated

thyroid instead of artificial T4 and T3 if Clyde et al were worried

about the cost to patients and insurance companies of adopting a

T4+T3 regimen.

clyde et all seemed reply that then patients would find multi dosing a

problem since the t3 they were using was time release. Do you have

their full reply?

--

Best regards,

Alison

http://www.alisonashwell.com

mailto:alison.ashwell@...

new work uploaded

http://www.artwanted.com/alisonashwell

August 21, 2004

Hello solntsepyati,

Saturday, August 21, 2004, 9:36:14 PM, you wrote:

s> Alison,

s> No, the letter is misleading. At least the letter you just posted.

s> It is putting words in the mouth of Dr. Clyde et al. Clyde's et al

s> actual letter to JAMA states: 'We did not assess the efficacy of

s> dessicated thyroid or the cost effectiveness of different thyroid

s> hormone preparations.'

ok

Dr Lichten seems to be incredibly pro-dessicated thyroid going by his

website

--

Best regards,

Alison

http://www.alisonashwell.com

mailto:alison.ashwell@...

new work uploaded

http://www.artwanted.com/alisonashwell

August 24, 2004

Hello charles,

ch> Yes, pro-dessicated. Is this a true bias, though? Why I'm asking, is because

it is well known that a dried medicinal herb can differ from the fresh as

regards efficacy. Is there documentation?

it isn't a herbal preparation. I'm sure everyone here on

natural thyroid preparations can vouch for the efficacy but i daresay the

number who eat raw sheep or bovine thyroid instead will be few and

far between.

ch> Since Europe is light years ahead of North America in establishing standards

for botanicals, would there be a study having come from this region regarding

dessicated before it is taken as a

ch> medication, apart from simply water content? Clyde et al's mention of

'simply the brand carried' is also meaningful to the forthcoming post concerning

Asian women just arrived from Southeast

ch> Asia. Orienting themselves, one of the first things they may do is to look

for the local apothecary. This can have important implications, as will be

shown.

I'm not sure what relevance the racial or country origins or gender

of immigrants has to do with natural thyroid preparations such as

Armour etc .

--

Best regards,

Alison

http://www.alisonashwell.com

mailto:alison.ashwell@...

new work uploaded

http://www.artwanted.com/alisonashwell

August 24, 2004

No way.

re: The paper we all want to read

>

> 'No human studies, including our own, have adminsitered truly

physiological ratios of levothyroxine to liothyronine when treating

hypothyroidism. Replicating normal tissue levels of thyroid hormone in

animal models required continuous infusions of both levothyroxine and

liothyronine (Endocrinology (1996)136:2490-2505). A sustained-release form

of oral liothyronine might come closer to achieving physiological serum and

tissue levels of T3. Currently, most physicians titrate the dose of

levothyroxine to achieve a serum TSH level within the normal laboratory

range.This range includes TSH levels of up to 4.6 mIU/L. However, new

guidelines for patients receiving therapy for primary hypothyroidism

recommend a target TSH level between 0.3 and 3.0 mIU/L or between 0.5 and

2.0 nIU/L. It has not been investigated whether patients benefit clinically

from these treatment recommendations, and the guidelines were published

after out study was completed. Nonetheless, treating to achieve a !

> serum TSH

> level in the lower end of the normal laboratory range may help some

patients, and this approach is probably safer and less costly than treating

with a combination of levothyroxine and liothyronine, which was demonstrated

in our study to be of no benefit. The guidelines reffered to above also

recommend using only levothyroxine when treating hypothyroiditis. This study

supports these guidelines by providing sound evidence that levothyroxine

alone continues to be the most appropriate therapy for patients with primary

hypothyroiditis.'

> (Clyde et al, Combined Levothyroxine Plus Liothyronine Compared With

Levothyroxine Alone in Primary Hypothyroidism, JAMA (2003) 290:2952-2958)

August 24, 2004

In a very unscientific way, I was reading on one of those sites about the

original custom of eating strange things, i.e., pica, and ran across

something about some " primitive " tribes somewhere ripping the throats out of

beasts (can't remember what kind though), and eating the " throat " contents,

i.e., thyroids, of these animals. They used these customs to energize

themselves and to get over sicknesses. These were routine customs to

consume these things daily, I believe. Wish I could remember where I saw

that. Of course, they ate them completely raw also.

Re: re: The paper we all want to read

> Hello charles,

> ch> Yes, pro-dessicated. Is this a true bias, though? Why I'm asking, is

because it is well known that a dried medicinal herb can differ from the

fresh as regards efficacy. Is there documentation?

> it isn't a herbal preparation. I'm sure everyone here on

> natural thyroid preparations can vouch for the efficacy but i

daresay the

> number who eat raw sheep or bovine thyroid instead will be few and

> far between.

>

> ch> Since Europe is light years ahead of North America in establishing

standards for botanicals, would there be a study having come from this

region regarding dessicated before it is taken as a

> ch> medication, apart from simply water content? Clyde et al's mention of

'simply the brand carried' is also meaningful to the forthcoming post

concerning Asian women just arrived from Southeast

> ch> Asia. Orienting themselves, one of the first things they may do is to

look for the local apothecary. This can have important implications, as will

be shown.

>

> I'm not sure what relevance the racial or country origins or gender

> of immigrants has to do with natural thyroid preparations such as

> Armour etc .

> --

> Best regards,

> Alison

August 24, 2004

And that just about says it.

Re: The paper we all want to read

>

> How can they say that T4 comes closer to creating proper

> physiological levels of T3 than anything? There are mountains of

> older studies that say this is not true. I think there is some

> finigling going on in this research. I can't count the number of

> studies I've looked at from the present day all the way back to the

> 1960s where it was found that T4 only treatment usually resulted in

> T3 levels below the midline of the range and T4 levels at the high

> end. Physicians first were not pleased with Synthroid because it did

> not produce as normal blood hormone profiles as Armour. What I'm

> wondering is how they came up with something so different than

> numberous other researchers before them did. What did they consider

> normal T3 - just inside the range at the bottom? They never

> mentioned that T4 levels were high with respect to T3. Just a

> fudging here on what the meaning of " normal " is.

>

> When T4 goes out of balance with respect to T3, Energy processes are

> slowed according to some research, not to mention that T4 is more

> suppressive of TSH than T3. A person can have TSH suppressed into

> the normal range at quite low doses of thryoid. There is a large

> range of thryoid replacement levels that keep TSH in the normal

> range. I believe that this has to do with the body's adaptive

> capabilities. In other words if you have a little too little

> thyroid, the body will restrict it from various tissues in order to

> keep blood levels normal as a way to make sure more important

> tissues, like the heart, get enough thryoid to function properly.

> So, the people in their study could for the most part be on quite

> low doses such as 2 grains of armour and less than 200 mcg of

> Synthroid and have their TSHs all be in the right place. But, the

> majority could still feel like dog doo since it was not being

> adjusted by symptoms. Why else would they make the comment that some

> may need to have TSH suppressed to the low end to feel good. This

> actually has been found in many studies with T4 dating back to when

> it was first used. TSH must be suppressed quite low for patients to

> get the most relief from symptoms. In the 1970's they found that to

> be 300 to 400 mcg.

>

> If there was truely merit to their study, I hardly think that so

> many newsgroups related to Armour and other natural thyroid medicine

> treatments would exist. Just in my own family, where all of us are

> on Thryoid treatment, I can say with confidence that my 3 sisters

> and mother who are on Synthroid are hardly doing as well as I am.

> They are all grosly overweight (I am not overweight) and have many

> health problems, which I do not have. I know that isn't scientific,

> but it is enough to cast some real doubt on these guy's research.

> You can make make any research show what you want it to. Great

> distortions are done in scientific research, which are so often

> based on biases and preconcieved ideas of the researchers. They

> often look at very intertwoven and complex things in such narrow

> isolation as to make the results of so much research today a

> meaningless distortion of reality. After all if we believed it all

> we would all be eating nothing but soy, taking cholesterol and blood

> pressure lowering medications, using HRT, and avoiding every fat

> known to man. This is just one tiny study in a mountain of others

> that would seem to contradict it.

>

> Tish

August 24, 2004

Hello solntsepyati,

Wednesday, August 25, 2004, 12:36:13 AM, you wrote:

s> As for raw liver, the Eskimos will not eat polar bear liver, it is

s> poisonous.

I said " Raw liver used to be reserved for pregnant women or lactating

women in some cultures " not *all* cultures

Many arctic animals have toxic levels of vitamin A in their liver . eg huskie

liver is also poisonous due to vitamin A

content -eating sled dog liver has killed some of the non-Inuit explorers.

--

Best regards,

Alison

http://www.alisonashwell.com

mailto:alison.ashwell@...

new work uploaded

http://www.artwanted.com/alisonashwell

August 24, 2004

Hello solntsepyati,

s> bears). Vitamin A being stored in Polar bear liver is a geographical

s> phenomenon and these should not be left out of discussions about

s> organ eating.

A geographical phenomenon encompassed by 'arctic animals' in my

previous post.

It also applies to Antarctic animals - NB don't eat their livers -you will

die.

I suppose i should also have mentioned that some European people used

to eat raw liver from kids [baby goats] and then drink highly potent

alcohol to kill liver parasites in case anyone here is bursting to eat

potentially parasite infested raw liver.....

--

Best regards,

Alison

http://www.alisonashwell.com

mailto:alison.ashwell@...

new work uploaded

http://www.artwanted.com/alisonashwell

August 24, 2004

I have to say, that on Synthroid, I was able to wake up just enough to know I

was dying. Yes, that was better than no meds, but not much. I was never as

depressed as many people, most of mine was fatigue and pain. Lets not forget the

bit%h factor. Because my ferritin was down at 20 range 10-291, even more serious

my transferrin was way below the line, the Armour allowed me to think and be

aware of my life. I was still too sic to do much till my ferritin went up. My

blood pressure as a morbidly obese woman at 49 was 70/65. As my ferriten went

up, my Armour levels went up. My mental issues from 30mg of Armor to the 2

grains now remain the same. I needed that med to think, to know where I was and

that there was hope. I have a big emotional tie to what thyroid has done to me

and I will fight my way back!

Re: The paper we all want to read

> I have no investment pro or con, because 1) I have no

>emotional/physiological investment in thyroid diseases

Those of us who have thyroid disease have a huge

emotional/physiological investment in thyroid disease. And those of

us who have been on T4-only meds, and then on Armour, definitely

know the difference, no matter what studies and papers and research

says!!

Janie

August 25, 2004

Because of that ungodly amt of vitamin A in it.

Re: The paper we all want to read

>

> As for raw liver, the Eskimos will not eat polar bear liver, it is

> poisonous.

August 25, 2004

This is very interesting, haven't seen this one. Think I'll go do some more

snooping!

Re: The paper we all want to read

>

> Ever hear of D-thyroxine? A mirror image of the naturally occuring

> molecule, it is in L-thyroxine. If you do enough searching you will

> fimd that it is one of the drugs that is used to treat secondary

> hyperthyroidism, it supress TSH with out really activating the

> receptors in the body.

>

August 25, 2004

In a message dated 8/24/2004 6:48:40 PM Eastern Standard Time,

solntsepyati@... writes:

> 2) I believe

> that the human system cannot tell the differencce between natural

> and synthetic, just as in fertilizers for plants:

Very wrong. A plant can definitely tell the difference between synthetic

fertilizer and natural products. There is a huge difference...both to the

plant..and to the environment...and to the gardener.

An organic gardener,

Cindi

August 25, 2004

In a message dated 8/25/2004 7:39:50 AM Eastern Standard Time, marin@...

writes:

> I DO know more

> about thyroid disease than any doctor that I've ever had, and I've seen

> plenty. That includes one endocrinologist.

Me too. For sure.

Cindi

August 25, 2004

Hello solntsepyati,

Wednesday, August 25, 2004, 9:59:54 AM, you wrote:

s> Science, for the most part, attempts to remove subjectivity from the

s> equation, and for good reason. An example of one of them is my

s> forgetting my affliction with hepatits B to come over here and talk

s> about thyroid disorders.

People are here to talk about thyroid disease -here is part of the

list blurb

" This group is for those

already on natural thyroid or those who would like to learn more about it! We

welcome those still on T4-only--and your questions. "

It is not a place for subjective " science " that ranges over any

random subject

s> The paradox for me is that I may come close

s> to chatisement for not wishing to indulge in a scar-showing ritual,

s> but point to the possibility of taking a more 'reptilian' gaze at

s> the evidence, so that subjectivity does not interfere to the point

s> that we are blinded to other turths.

Personally i think this idea that folk here are indulging themselves

in a 'scar showing ritual' is insensitive in the extreme. This is a

support group for thyroid disease :people here are seriously ill.

s> Just because one feels the difference in meds does not discount

s> scientific research. I'm wonderiung how many of the authors I've

s> quoted recently would call their work 'basic' research?

It does not matter whether the research is cutting edge or

ancient = people here are only concerned with improving their health

and secondarily with educating other patients and Drs about the

importance of clinical findings over lab tests

s> The phrase 'no matter what studies and papers and research says'

s> seems to bite the hand that feeds: Armour would not have gotten

s> developed without scientists and doctors who put in long hours of

s> studying, at least getting us to the point in thyroid research that

s> we are today.

They fed animal thyroid to patients with myxedema .

A great many people would say that was the biggest advance in the last

century as far as thyroid disease is concerned

--

Best regards,

Alison

http://www.alisonashwell.com

mailto:alison.ashwell@...

new work uploaded

http://www.artwanted.com/alisonashwell

August 25, 2004

Hello solntsepyati,

Wednesday, August 25, 2004, 9:59:54 AM, you wrote:

s> Science, for the most part, attempts to remove subjectivity from the

s> equation, and for good reason. An example of one of them is my

s> forgetting my affliction with hepatits B to come over here and talk

s> about thyroid disorders.

People are here to talk about thyroid disease -here is part of the

list blurb

" This group is for those

already on natural thyroid or those who would like to learn more about it! We

welcome those still on T4-only--and your questions. "

It is not a place for subjective " science " that ranges over any

random subject

s> The paradox for me is that I may come close

s> to chatisement for not wishing to indulge in a scar-showing ritual,

s> but point to the possibility of taking a more 'reptilian' gaze at

s> the evidence, so that subjectivity does not interfere to the point

s> that we are blinded to other turths.

Personally i think this idea that folk here are indulging themselves

in a 'scar showing ritual' is insensitive in the extreme. This is a

support group for thyroid disease :people here are seriously ill.

s> Just because one feels the difference in meds does not discount

s> scientific research. I'm wonderiung how many of the authors I've

s> quoted recently would call their work 'basic' research?

It does not matter whether the research is cutting edge or

ancient = people here are only concerned with improving their health

and secondarily with educating other patients and Drs about the

importance of clinical findings over lab tests

s> The phrase 'no matter what studies and papers and research says'

s> seems to bite the hand that feeds: Armour would not have gotten

s> developed without scientists and doctors who put in long hours of

s> studying, at least getting us to the point in thyroid research that

s> we are today.

They fed animal thyroid to patients with myxedema .

A great many people would say that was the biggest advance in the last

century as far as thyroid disease is concerned

--

Best regards,

Alison

http://www.alisonashwell.com

mailto:alison.ashwell@...

new work uploaded

http://www.artwanted.com/alisonashwell

August 25, 2004

Hello solntsepyati,

Wednesday, August 25, 2004, 9:59:54 AM, you wrote:

s> Science, for the most part, attempts to remove subjectivity from the

s> equation, and for good reason. An example of one of them is my

s> forgetting my affliction with hepatits B to come over here and talk

s> about thyroid disorders.

People are here to talk about thyroid disease -here is part of the

list blurb

" This group is for those

already on natural thyroid or those who would like to learn more about it! We

welcome those still on T4-only--and your questions. "

It is not a place for subjective " science " that ranges over any

random subject

s> The paradox for me is that I may come close

s> to chatisement for not wishing to indulge in a scar-showing ritual,

s> but point to the possibility of taking a more 'reptilian' gaze at

s> the evidence, so that subjectivity does not interfere to the point

s> that we are blinded to other turths.

Personally i think this idea that folk here are indulging themselves

in a 'scar showing ritual' is insensitive in the extreme. This is a

support group for thyroid disease :people here are seriously ill.

s> Just because one feels the difference in meds does not discount

s> scientific research. I'm wonderiung how many of the authors I've

s> quoted recently would call their work 'basic' research?

It does not matter whether the research is cutting edge or

ancient = people here are only concerned with improving their health

and secondarily with educating other patients and Drs about the

importance of clinical findings over lab tests

s> The phrase 'no matter what studies and papers and research says'

s> seems to bite the hand that feeds: Armour would not have gotten

s> developed without scientists and doctors who put in long hours of

s> studying, at least getting us to the point in thyroid research that

s> we are today.

They fed animal thyroid to patients with myxedema .

A great many people would say that was the biggest advance in the last

century as far as thyroid disease is concerned

--

Best regards,

Alison

http://www.alisonashwell.com

mailto:alison.ashwell@...

new work uploaded

http://www.artwanted.com/alisonashwell

August 25, 2004

Growing numbers of folks are coming forward on this, and yes, there are some

people who seem to do fine on synthetic T4. I believe that there are

magnitudes of people who have UNdiagnosed thyroid disease, so the #s will

get greater. It is the blind eyed doctor, coupled with big pharmaceutical

companies who are the culprits, though, in seeing it all from one

perspective, as in one size fits all. I'm seeing more and more people, even

in my own area, who are complaining that they don't quite feel well, and I

do know scores of people here with thyroid disease. It's just like catching

a cold, it seems. I live in the vicinity of Dow Chemical, so you can see

why it is so rampant. These same people are on synthetic T4, and I would

swear that it is their thyroid problem, since they all have this one thing

in common, and they all still feel ill, after being on it for yrs, with the

doctor raising their doses, even. With the thousands of people coming and

going (and many of us staying, hopefully!) from many different thyroid

sites, over just this last yr and a half, 9 out 10 that I've seen eventually

do much better on Armour OR another natural dessicated thyroid product,

despite having had their former synthetic meds raised to the outer reaches,

to no avail. Every single one of us feels so much better. Very few I've

seen have said that they had a bad reaction, and we don't even know all the

factors that came into being there---whether they were unknowingly allergic

to fillers, whether they were adrenally exhausted, or whether there were

other factors. Some would say that the same could be true of the synthetic

T4 meds, but I've seen too much ongoing evidence to the contrary. A

concentrated huge # of people, using themselves for " guinea pigs " , so to

speak, can't be wrong. I've run across maybe 1 out of 100 people who say

that they actually feel good on the synthetics and credit it to that.

Seeing and feeling and hearing is believing, not a mouthpiece for the guys

who are making big bucks off of the American public, or anywhere else, for

that matter. Too many doctors have been brainwashed about this, all the way

from the pharmaceutical companies' funding for medical education in the

universities across the way, to their private practices, later on. Not that

much education is spent in the classroom even, on the thyroid. They are

still trying to fit their patients into a set of #s and a lot of hype from

The Companies, even with their patients telling them that they still feel

lousy. Doctor says, " It must be something else, since you don't fit with

what the #s are telling me. " Funny, I was told this by 4 different doctors.

How is it that I proved them wrong, along with thousands of other people,

well, maybe millions, at this point?

Re: The paper we all want to read

> That makes a considerable difference, granted. Yet, what are the

> statistics: how many = us? Are there not others on T4-only that can

> vouch for it? Is Armour the only brand available?

August 25, 2004