Re: question for those who have been on SCD for a long time

[Guest guest]

Hi PJ,

I started seeing changes right away as the easily digested food from the intro

diet was soothing. I noticed I had a lot less heartburn, I could sleep better

at night. For my C. problems, this took a few weeks before I started seeing a

change in my BMs and I'm still struggling with this problem, 1 year later.

It'll take more time but I'm not giving up. I'm still learning what foods I can

tolerate and what to avoid.

>

> I'm curious how long it took for you to see results. I know everyone is

different, but I would like to see how you are doing.

>

> Thanks!!

> PJ

>

[Guest guest]

>

> I'm curious how long it took for you to see results. I know everyone is

> different, but I would like to see how you are doing.

Minor improvement in baseline symptoms out of the gate, significant

improvement all of a sudden at 4 months and 1 week. I seem to be in a

phase where if I eat a certain list of foods I'm basically symptom

free. If I experiment I can run into trouble -- basically almost a

complete relapse to my former symptoms -- but that clears up within a

day if I get back to basics.

I take this to mean that the Kp population has weakened, the chronic

autoimmune response has reduced but things ( " things " = Kp and

antibodies) are still active to the point that they can be quickly

triggered. My hope is that if I stay on a good diet for the next

several months the Kp population will be weakened further, fewer

antibodies will be around and the gut will actually start healing.

--

Cheers,

DF in MA

UC June '07

SCD Nov '08

[Guest guest]

Hi, I took me about 2 months... ( pull myself out and being without pain). Food: Steamed, boiled or broiled ...chicken broth saved my live!!! no fiber in the beginning then slowly adding per pecanbread website stages.

Subject: question for those who have been on SCD for a long timeTo: BTVC-SCD Date: Wednesday, April 29, 2009, 10:32 AM

I'm curious how long it took for you to see results. I know everyone is different, but I would like to see how you are doing.Thanks!!PJ

[Guest guest]

I've only been on SCD for five months, but will share anyway. My fistulas

started healing in the first month, and my constipation got somewhat better. It

wasn't until after the 3 month flare (and an ugly bout of constipation) that

things became more noticeably improved. I haven't had constipation since then,

my fistulas seem to be completely healed, and my anal fissure and hemmerhoids

are better. My butt is much much happier than it's ever been .

My heartburn/acid reflux also improved in the first month. I was able to quit

taking Protonix altogether! It used to feel like food was just sitting in my

stomach, but I feel like things are moving along and digesting well now. I

rarely get that ugly bloated feeling anymore.

After 4 months, the fatigue started to get a little better. It's still there,

but it's easier to fight. I spend quite a bit less time in bed resting than I

used to.

I think that covers it. Hopefully things will start looking up for you soon!

Holly

Crohn's

SCD 12/01/08

>

> I'm curious how long it took for you to see results. I know everyone is

different, but I would like to see how you are doing.

>

> Thanks!!

> PJ

>

[Guest guest]

Hey Mara,

You should ask Grammy Bauer for AJ's from Arizona email address from her Google

group. He is a wealth of knowledge about this and has set up his own home-brew

lab..

Jodi

> >>

> >> How did you arrive at the conclusion that it was KP that was the

> >> troublemaker?

> >

> >I can't say I have any clinical evidence to prove it in my case but

> >I've read quite a bit of Ebringer et al's work about Kp and the theory

> >seems to hang together. If it isn't Kp it's something similar...or

> >it's something else entirely that behaves exactly as the theory

> >speculates :-)

>

>

> Do you have a handy citation for that to share?

>

> Mara

>

[Guest guest]

Howdy. I've been part of the list that has been mentioned elsewhere, but have

avoided the Yahoo! group as (quite frankly) I have a lot to say about things,

and when I get a lot of email, I tend to spend too much time replying to that

email, and this group is pretty busy.

So, I apologize for neglecting y'all, but I'm just so busy.

The tragedy of Ebringer's work is that Elaine was still alive when he was

actively publishing all this work, from the mid-1980s on forward. Worse,

Ebringer is a rheumatologist, and his work has been published in rheumatology

circles; it is now generally accepted that Klebsiella pneumoniae (Kp) has a lot

to do with ankylosing spondylitis. Ebringer has made clear inroads in terms of

implicating Kp as a cause of Crohn's and ulcerative colitis, but this work is

not as well-accepted for several reasons.

Here's the theory in a nutshell. Stick with me.

Klebsiella pneumoniae is an opportunistic pathogen, known to cause pneumonia (as

its name implies), and is also the second-leading cause of Gram-negative sepsis

( " blood infections " ). This becomes important later. In its role in ankylosing

spondylitis (AS), Crohn's disease (CD), and ulcerative colitis (UC), it is NOT a

pathogen, and is not even an infection. It is a commensal organism- one of

several hundred critters swimming around in your gut, performing all sorts of

obscene biological things while making your intestines its home. For the

majority of individuals, it is harmless (provided it doesn't get into your lungs

or your bloodstream- same as many otherwise harmless bacteria).

However, Kp has one trait that causes it to be less-than-endearing: it eats

starch. This alone isn't a problem- but the *way* it eats starch is a problem.

In order to break down complex starch- amylopectin starch (which is depicted in

BTVC- Elaine knew it was part of the problem, but didn't know it was THE

problem) is attacked by Kp using an enzyme- a " de-branching " enzyme. Think of

de-branching enzymes as a pair of hedge shears, lopping off branches. These

" branches " consist of short chains of glucose molecules, which Kp then consumes.

It's like a digestive enzyme for bacteria.

Unfortunately, there's a little amino acid sequence in this enzyme (which is

called pulullanase) called QTDRED. That's the amino acids: Q-T-D-R-E-D, which

means a glutamine connected to a threonine connected to aspartate, then

arginine, and glutamate, and another aspartate.

This same sequence appears in certain types of human collagen (there are 20-some

types of collagen). So- somehow the human immune system becomes sensitized to

this bacterial protein. If the body forms antibodies to QTDRED, then it'll

attack pulullanase- which is pretty futile, as pulullanase isn't attacking the

body. It's floating around in your intestines, produced by the klebsiella.

Unfortunately, these antibodies will also attack things that look just like it,

which includes the QTDRED sequence in your collagen.

If the individual is HLA-B27 positive, the attack tends to be on the collagen of

the spine. If HLA-B27 negative, the attack tends to be on the collagen of the

intestines.

Meanwhile, the human continues to consume starch, feeding the klebsiella, which

then produces more pulullanase- to which the body responds by cranking out more

antibodies. With more antibodies comes more autoimmune attack of the intestines,

and more ulcers. With more ulcers comes more mixing of the bacterial proteins

with the immune system. You can see where this is going.

This is why the Gottschall diet works: it eliminates amylopectin starch from the

diet. Stop feeding the klebsiella, and it has no reason to produce the enzyme to

break down starch. In fact, in order to grow Kp from my own gut, I had to start

eating large quantities of cashews and peanuts- which have " slow " starch in

them, which is amylopectin wedged into a waxy matrix. If I eat more cashews,

almonds, and peanuts, my stool gets loose and I can culture Kp. If I do not, the

bacteria don't show up.

This is why antibiotics like Flagyl (metronidazole) and Cipro (ciprofloxacin)

work. Klebsiella are EXTREMELY antibiotic resistant, so trying to knock them out

with this or the Borody protocol (the " triple antibiotic cocktail " that must be

taken for years) work poorly, and why other antibiotics don't work at all.

This is why steroids work without causing the disease to run rampant. If it were

a true infection like Mycobacterium avium ssp. paratuberculosis (as some have

hypothesized), then taking steroids would be a very messy end for the host.

Along with immunosuppressants, the immune system would take a vacation, the

organism would overwhelm the host, and the host would probably die. In this

case, Kp is not pathogenic.

This explains why tumor necrosis factor alpha (TNF-alpha) inhibitors, like

Humira and Remicade work. The entire class of drugs was invented to combat

Gram-negative sepsis. As I started out (some paragraphs above), klebsiella is

the second-leading cause of Gram-negative sepsis in humans.

The klebsiella theory also explains why anti-inflammatories work. It also

explains why NSAIDs are contraindicated: NSAIDs are known to create tiny little

holes in the gastrointestinal tract, which is presumably one reason why they

combat heart disease (by slowly bleeding the patient, making them lose iron-

which is known to prevent heart attacks). These tiny little holes cause the

immune system to mix with bacterial proteins, and- whammo. Flares.

This explains why endoscopy is frequently followed by a flare: that fiberoptic

snake wends its way through the intestines, causing small scrapes- allowing the

bacterial proteins from klebsiella to mix with the immune system.

Now, don't get me wrong; there's a BIT more to it than just starch once the

individual gets sick. Disaccharides (lactose and sucrose, mainly) complicate the

situation. But this is already far too long, so I'll leave that bit out.

As for me- I've been on the Gottschall diet for 16+ months, and off my meds for

over 15 months. I was diagnosed 16 months ago, in fact, and only on the drugs

for 2-3 weeks. As it stands, my blood values are ALL NORMAL; that took a long

time. 6 months ago, only two values were out of whack: my blood glucose was 2

points LOWER than norms (which is harmless), and my red cell distribution width

(from my folate-deficient megaloblastic anemia) was 15.1 (norms 13.0 to 15.0,

down from 16- or 17-something just 3-4 months earlier). I am back to normal-

normal weight, normal exercising, normal stool, you name it.

But it took a very long time, and strict adherence to the Gottschall diet. My

doctor is not a believer, and thinks my intestines are surely plotting against

me; he insists on endoscopy, and I talked him down to capsule endoscopy since I

don't want that fiber-optic snake dinging up my nice-and-intact intestinal

mucosa.

As for me- to date, I have been unable (despite running many experiments) to

find antibodies against Kp in my own blood serum. This is discouraging, but it

is possible I am not performing the tests correctly. The refereed literature is

full of work by Ebringer and others, implicating klebsiella.

These theories are not well-accepted (indeed, they're hardly known at all)

within gastroenterological circles. Instead, they offer us antibiotics,

steroids, immunomodulators, TNF inhibitors- all drugs with serious side effects,

including cancer and death- and inform us that surely a diet cannot possibly

work, and may even be dangerous. Would that they were to make us read the black

box warning on a shot of Humira or Remicade, I doubt many folks would go through

with it.

It's very simple: the industrialization of America and the rest of the world has

led to the proliferation of white, bleached wheat, in gignormous quantities.

Starch from corn, potatoes, wheat and its brethren now constitute an unnaturally

large proportion of the diet. Diseases like Crohn's were unknown before white

flour, and didn't appear on other continents until well after they landed on

their shores.

Today, I can consume rice, pinto beans, and small amounts of processed corn with

no pain. The same is not true of wheat. Wheat starch has something special about

it- probably the lectins that come with it- that inspires pain and discomfort,

while other forms of starch do not.

I don't have all the answers about precisely what causes this disease, and I'm

sure there are many trails to the same destination. But Elaine was absolutely

spot-on about this disease. The other genius is Dr. Wolfgang Lutz ( " Life Without

Bread " ). His very simple rule- no more than 72 grams/day of carbohydrates- is

elegant and (in my humble opinion) an excellent alternative to follow for those

who are too busy or travel too much. In fact, if that 72 grams/day is restricted

such that none of those calories come from " The Celiac Four " (barley, rye, oats,

or wheat- the BROW proteins), I suspect the Lutz management scheme would be

greatly amplified in its efficacy.

The Lutz rule is one reason why I try not to become neurotic about tiny traces

of starch or sugar in any foods I consume. Yes, my chicken seasoning has

malto-dextrin in it. I still eat it. My salt may have some trace of dextrose

added as a flowing agent. It's not going to make me ill. Your mileage may vary,

but the one thing I cannot seem to stress enough is not to become orthorexic

because of the SCD: don't become afraid of food.

For all this is holy, EAT RICHLY. Steak! Eggs! Sausage! Bacon! Full-fat yogurt!

Have some more cheese, some SCD-safe custard with LOTS of eggs and butter. Don't

be scared by butter and fat and protein. Carbohydrates are what made you ill-

the USDA food pyramid is upside down, jamming our guts with 50-55-60% of our

calories from carbohydrates- it's obscene and WRONG. I had no idea how

wrong-headed this was until reading " Good Calories, Bad Calories " by

Taubes: 608 pages, including 140 pages of notes. It will hurt your mind and

damage your furniture as you will want to hurl this book at a wall every 2-3

pages when you realize how absolutely WRONG the " war on fat " has been.

Please don't starve yourself on the SCD. It doesn't have to be a breakdown over

there being " nothing to eat. " It needs to be a shift from pasta and wheat and

ice cream and cookies, yes- and supermarkets cater primarily to the

wheat-rice-potatoes-high fructose corn syrup market, yes- but they still have

food you can eat!

I'm 5'11 " (probably 5'10, but I'm sticking with 5'11 " ), male, and I weighed 139

pounds when diagnosed on 19 December, 2007, having steadily lost a pound a week

since June of that year. Nothing abated my weight loss. Within two months, my

bleeding had stopped, and within three months I was UP 13 pounds. I'm now

159-ish, which is exactly where I want to be. (As a caver, I don't want extra

weight!)

I have a lot more to say, but most of you are probably on your second cup of

coffee by now.

This rant has been brought to you by AJ. Additional rants are available on tape,

8-track cassette, and stone tablets for $19.95.

-AJ

> >

> > How did you arrive at the conclusion that it was KP that was the

> > troublemaker?

>

> I can't say I have any clinical evidence to prove it in my case but

> I've read quite a bit of Ebringer et al's work about Kp and the theory

> seems to hang together. If it isn't Kp it's something similar...or

> it's something else entirely that behaves exactly as the theory

> speculates :-)

>

> --

> Cheers,

> DF in MA

> UC June '07

> SCD Nov '08

>

[Guest guest]

Hey AJ,

No coffee for me since I am in the hospital but know many of us love you and

totally appreciate your work and insight..

Waiting for you to publish one day...

Thanks for hopping over to Yahoo and sharing some info.. Most invaluable.

Jodi

I have been on so many meds I think it has done much damage in the long run for

me.

[Guest guest]

Crud! Didn't hear you were in the hospital- hope it's not for long and that

everything works out OK.

I'm 35-36,000 words into my book. I need to run a few more experiments, and get

over a few other things before I'm done. It'll explain a lot of things about

Crohn's (I hope!), and may spur someone on to do research, but I doubt it.

Dietary approaches to management of Crohn's are not well-loved in the medical

community.

-AJ

>

> Hey AJ,

>

> No coffee for me since I am in the hospital but know many of us love you and

totally appreciate your work and insight..

>

> Waiting for you to publish one day...

>

> Thanks for hopping over to Yahoo and sharing some info.. Most invaluable.

>

> Jodi

>

> I have been on so many meds I think it has done much damage in the long run

for me.

>

[Guest guest]

This is absolutely amazing- thank you for this explanation. Keep them coming.

Please don't avoid us. I am new here and we all crave answers.

Thanks again.

PJ

> > >

> > > How did you arrive at the conclusion that it was KP that was the

> > > troublemaker?

> >

> > I can't say I have any clinical evidence to prove it in my case but

> > I've read quite a bit of Ebringer et al's work about Kp and the theory

> > seems to hang together. If it isn't Kp it's something similar...or

> > it's something else entirely that behaves exactly as the theory

> > speculates :-)

> >

> > --

> > Cheers,

> > DF in MA

> > UC June '07

> > SCD Nov '08

> >

>

[Guest guest]

AJ,

You make me laugh.. I think at least *some* will find value in it. People who

take things into their own hands and make home brew labs without dismembering a

limb are totally awesome <vbg> Your words will be cherished!

Keep up the good work..

I am back home. I had a small bowel obstruction. Took me 4 days to come home.

8 years ago I had a major colon obstruction (Hepatic Flexure) and it took me 4

weeks to come home I think that was because They gave me ice cream, popsicles

and oatmeal to eat. I shudder at the thought.

Unfortunately, The Crohn's is a mechanical issue at this point- according to my

small bowel series I have 6 strictures (I thought 5- my GI corrected me) from

midway Transverse all the way to Ileum. I also have an unidentified mass in my

ascending colon which cannot be reached via scope due to needing to get through

2 strictures that cannot be ballooned. A pediatric scope could not get through.

They cannot totally rule out Cancer but most likely it isn't Cancer but like a

Pre-Cancer state. Blood tests won't help in this instance they need biopsies.

So I need surgery- they need to remove about 2.5 feet in total- not sure how

much they will take out of small bowel. I hope not too much as I would hate to

end up with Short Bowel.

Anyway, if I was hesitant about surgery before- well, this last episode

convinced me that despite all of my hard work and alternatives that I do the

stricturing and scar tissue is just too advanced and severe. I was skeptical

but was told scar tissue does not get worse in Crohn's..

I do not have the best track record with conventional medicine but I hope this

will help..

Thanks for listening and keep posting here- the folks will surely appreciate it!

Any tips on maintaining vein health for surgery?

Jodi

[Guest guest]

Hi AJ,

I just wanted to echo the thanks that it took to write this.

I am bookmarking it for later; there is SO much to learn, wnd with myself and

two boys on SCD, my head spins regularly.

I'm in my second freak-out since starting in January. I notice that I freak out

whe I get new info, and try to absorb it all, along with getting my gut to

absorb, and heal at the same time. The stress causes my gut to go, and when that

happens, my brain does as well . . .

I truly appreciate everyone's posts always, and learn so much here. Whenever I

am feeling discouraged, I know right where to come.

I have SO much to learn about bacteria, and what it does. All I know is that I &

my boys have certain strains, & am just working on getting us all to a baseline,

and be stable!

So, if anyone else was overwhelmed, you're not alone But it all is GREAT

info, and I feel lucky to be part of such an educating and compassionate

community . . .

Kim in NJ

(I have 4+ Kp per Genova - and wonder if I have always had this, or if I picked

it up during one of my abdominal/bowel surgeries. On an interesting note, 28

years ago, mother passed away from post-surgical sepsis - and all I recall

hearing at that time is that the docs were so confused as to why the antibiotics

were not able to kill off the bacteria that she had - so maybe I inherited it as

well . . .)

Kim in NJ, Short Bowel Syndrome due to bowel resection Feb 03

2 sons, almost 4, ADHD, SPD, leaky gut, klebsiella oxytoca & candida overgrowth

Transitioned to SCD from GFCF Nov/Dec 08

All SCD Jan 1/09

[Guest guest]

Hi AJ,

I just wanted to echo the thanks that it took to write this.

I am bookmarking it for later; there is SO much to learn, wnd with myself and

two boys on SCD, my head spins regularly.

I'm in my second freak-out since starting in January. I notice that I freak out

whe I get new info, and try to absorb it all, along with getting my gut to

absorb, and heal at the same time. The stress causes my gut to go, and when that

happens, my brain does as well . . .

I truly appreciate everyone's posts always, and learn so much here. Whenever I

am feeling discouraged, I know right where to come.

I have SO much to learn about bacteria, and what it does. All I know is that I &

my boys have certain strains, & am just working on getting us all to a baseline,

and be stable!

So, if anyone else was overwhelmed, you're not alone But it all is GREAT

info, and I feel lucky to be part of such an educating and compassionate

community . . .

Kim in NJ

(I have 4+ Kp per Genova - and wonder if I have always had this, or if I picked

it up during one of my abdominal/bowel surgeries. On an interesting note, 28

years ago, mother passed away from post-surgical sepsis - and all I recall

hearing at that time is that the docs were so confused as to why the antibiotics

were not able to kill off the bacteria that she had - so maybe I inherited it as

well . . .)

Kim in NJ, Short Bowel Syndrome due to bowel resection Feb 03

2 sons, almost 4, ADHD, SPD, leaky gut, klebsiella oxytoca & candida overgrowth

Transitioned to SCD from GFCF Nov/Dec 08

All SCD Jan 1/09

[Guest guest]

I should apologize in advance. I hear so many people who hear about the SCD and

then complain about it being too hard- particularly for people who travel for

work- and I tell them to do the next best thing if they ABSOLUTELY CAN NOT

follow the SCD strictly, which is to follow what Lutz has to say about Crohn's,

or what Atkins has to say about Crohn's. At the very least, if I'm out of town

and must eat, I look at the " Atkins " portion of the menu and have a big bowl of

cheese and chicken with a saccharin-sweetened iced tea, effectively keeping me

SCD-legal.

We have two people in my local Crohn's and colitis support group who have tried

the SCD. One quit despite getting good results for that reason explicitly- it

was too hard to follow. Another had good success with the Lutz plan, but again

found it hard to follow, particularly for things like going to lunch with

co-workers. That second one is now back on the Lutz program, and has found that

although taking the diet down to below even 150 grams/day of carbs has been

tough, they find it is working better for them than Remicade.

Unfortunately, I am one of those for which the trace components don't seem to

cause problems, so I will try to shut up about advocating them.

-AJ

--- In BTVC-SCD , " Wizop Marilyn L. Alm "

> AJ,

>

> Welcome to the list. Yes, this is a very busy

> list, and like you, I often have rather more to

> say than people are expecting. I've been SCD for

> almost eight years, and it literally saved my life.

>

> Just a note about the parameters of this list:

> I'm not QUITE as strict about not mentioning

> anything other than BTVC here as was on

> the Long Island List, but I do want to make it

> clear that the PRIMARY focus is the Specific

> Carbohydrate Diet as delineated in Breaking the Vicious Cycle.

[Guest guest]

Doug,

Someone at the Healing Well forums (

http://www.healingwell.com/community/default.aspx?f=17 & m=1458626 & p=1 ) often

posts about Kp. He thinks that even with a healthy gut lining, other sources of

collagen fragments will still trigger the autoimmune response. What's your

opinion of this?

Holly

Crohn's

SCD 12/01/08

>

> Minor improvement in baseline symptoms out of the gate, significant

> improvement all of a sudden at 4 months and 1 week. I seem to be in a

> phase where if I eat a certain list of foods I'm basically symptom

> free. If I experiment I can run into trouble -- basically almost a

> complete relapse to my former symptoms -- but that clears up within a

> day if I get back to basics.

>

> I take this to mean that the Kp population has weakened, the chronic

> autoimmune response has reduced but things ( " things " = Kp and

> antibodies) are still active to the point that they can be quickly

> triggered. My hope is that if I stay on a good diet for the next

> several months the Kp population will be weakened further, fewer

> antibodies will be around and the gut will actually start healing.

>

> --

> Cheers,

> DF in MA

> UC June '07

> SCD Nov '08

>

[Guest guest]

Doug,

Someone at the Healing Well forums (

http://www.healingwell.com/community/default.aspx?f=17 & m=1458626 & p=1 ) often

posts about Kp. He thinks that even with a healthy gut lining, other sources of

collagen fragments will still trigger the autoimmune response. What's your

opinion of this?

Holly

Crohn's

SCD 12/01/08

>

> Minor improvement in baseline symptoms out of the gate, significant

> improvement all of a sudden at 4 months and 1 week. I seem to be in a

> phase where if I eat a certain list of foods I'm basically symptom

> free. If I experiment I can run into trouble -- basically almost a

> complete relapse to my former symptoms -- but that clears up within a

> day if I get back to basics.

>

> I take this to mean that the Kp population has weakened, the chronic

> autoimmune response has reduced but things ( " things " = Kp and

> antibodies) are still active to the point that they can be quickly

> triggered. My hope is that if I stay on a good diet for the next

> several months the Kp population will be weakened further, fewer

> antibodies will be around and the gut will actually start healing.

>

> --

> Cheers,

> DF in MA

> UC June '07

> SCD Nov '08

>

[Guest guest]

Hi spookyhurst/Doug - Keeper would be me - spooky referred me to this forum, so

here I am... The collagen fibers would be due to damage or

infection/inflammation and the reaction would be at the site of release of those

fibers (in my theory). That is why some people get Crohn's arthritis or

Pyoderma gangrenosum or any number of related ailments. It also would account

for the sensitivity of the colon to damage from a colonoscopy or to NSAIDs or

gut infections due to other bacteria/viruses. Also, the inflamed gut

experiences tissue damage from inflammation that will release tissue fragments

including more collagen - resulting in more inflammation etc.... In a healthy

body with no ongoing tissue damage, the collagen would be bound up in the matrix

of the cells and would not be presented to T cells which results in them

triggering an immune response. It is difficult to avoid all damage obviously,

so the state of remission is precarious. All this assumes that you have been

able to control the bacteria that caused to autoimmune reaction in the first

place, so only the autoimmune problem remains - bad enough.

> >

> > Someone at the Healing Well forums (

> > http://www.healingwell.com/community/default.aspx?f=17 & m=1458626 & p=1 ) often

> > posts about Kp. He thinks that even with a healthy gut lining, other sources

> > of collagen fragments will still trigger the autoimmune response. What's

> > your opinion of this?

>

> I read that thread several days ago and even began composing a

> response -- got sidetracked though. You're talking about Keeper,

> right?

>

> It's a good question and I certainly don't know enough about it to add

> or detract anything from the theory. My hunch is with reduced

> Kp-related reactivity the whole autoimmune response will simmer down

> and the attack on the collagen will eventually go away. I also don't

> know enough about T cells -- specifically how they find their targets

> and get to their destination -- to make a call on that either.

>

> I wonder what Keeper suspects is the source of the loose collagen?

> For example, if collagen from muscle or tendon ends up floating around

> will that cause an attack on gut collagen? I'd guess that it would

> have to be the same type as that of the lining of the intestines in

> order to perpetuate the autoimmune response. My *hunch* is if/when

> the gut becomes less permeable there will be less blood transfer,

> therefore less reactivity and the onset of the " gentle " cycle begins

> (gentle being the antonym of vicious). Regardless I'd expect this

> rogue collagen -- and associated reactivity -- to be temporary.

> Again, I don't know enough about it but I'd imagine an autoimmune

> response needs some external stimulus to remain active over the long

> term.

>

> --

> Cheers,

> DF in MA

> UC June '07

> SCD Nov '08

>