Re: Should I try T3?

August 16, 2004

In a message dated 8/16/2004 8:29:46 AM Eastern Standard Time,

ryno@... writes:

> I seem to have a bit of a

> crash, and I have noticed that my muscles have started to feel achy

> at night and I wake up with more aches and it seems to take longer

> for the Armour to kick in in the morning.

>

This is why i started taking a 1/2 grain at night...

cindi

August 16, 2004

In a message dated 8/16/2004 8:29:46 AM Eastern Standard Time,

ryno@... writes:

> had been

> taking 1 1/4 grains around 7am, and another grain around 2 or 3pm.

>

I take mine around 1:00 and don't have a problem with the afternoon slump...i

think moving your dose up was the right thing to do.

Cindi

August 16, 2004

It really sounds to me like your dose is just a tad low, and maybe

not neccessarily that you need T3, though that might solve it for

you. This happened to me when I was taking 2 grains. It seemed I

would run out of gas just before the next dose. I had divided my

doses into 3 a day at 8 hour intervals. You moved up your afternoon

dose to 12:00, which basically increased thyroid levels for you

during the day, but the consequence is that you run more low in the

evening and night. What used to hapen to me was at around 3:00 in

the morning, I would run low on thyroid and would become restless,

tight, and achy. It seemed like my muscles tightened up. To me it

felt like they were wanting to cramp from lack of oxygen, like when

you exercise intensly and things cramp on you. I also developed

bursitis in my feet.

When I got my dose up to 3 grains, it all went away. People who take

Armour tend to have T4 levels on the low end and T3 in the mid to

upper range in the blood. This is because Armour has more T3 with

respect to T4 than the human thyroid makes so it changes the typical

blood profile a little. What I think happens when the dose is a

little low is that, like you were thinking, the T3 gets used up

before your next dose and then there isn't very much T4 there to

convert to T3. So, you are right that you have run out of T3, but, I

think for most people it can be corrected just by adding more Armour

and bringing up both T3 and T4. But, taking only more T3 would

probably fix the problem, too. The only drawback is that you might

feel a bit too speeded up for a few hours if you take extra T3 at

the same time as your regular Armour dose. The liver will detoxify

excess T3 if it goes too high, so it may detoxify some of it right

after taking it. The body tries to normalize thyroid levels and keep

T3 and T4 the proper range throughout the day. Taking a little

Synthroid to balance the Armour, making your thyroid replacement

more like human (10% T3 and 90% T4) may also solve your problem by

giving you high enough blood levels of T4 to convert to T3 when the

T3 runs out before your next dose.

If you take extra T3 along with your Armour, you will have a big

peak of T3 for a few hours after you dose and this can be hard on

the adrenals and give you the shakes for a while. Also, the liver

will try to normalize blood levels of thyroid and detoxify some of

the T3 to bring it down into the proper range. So, in some ways

taking extra T3 may not be as efficient as taking extra T4, which

would give you the material to convert to T3 when needed and when T3

is depleted. You could take the T3 between your Armour doses and

this would probably work to keep thyroid levels up better all day.

But, for me personally, I like to have sufficient T4 to convert,

since my body can convert it as needed. With T3, you have to guess

how much you need and medicate it at the right time. You have to be

more dilligent about taking it on time. T4 is like a suitcase for

storage or like a backup generator. It gives you more flexibility.

Tish

August 16, 2004

In a message dated 8/16/2004 1:54:08 PM Eastern Standard Time,

ryno@... writes:

> Cindi what time do you take your doses, and does the night dose

> interfere with your sleep at all?

>

I take 2 1/2 grains at 7:00....2 grains around 1:00....and I've recently

added 1/2 grain around 9:30 or 10:10. It has not interferred with my

sleep...although insomnia has been a problem for me off and on for a few

months...but one

thing that would happen to me was my legs at night would get achy and

twitchy...and old hypo symptom for me. But taking the 1/2 grain at night keeps

the

leg aches away...and I'm more relaxed for sleeping.

Cindi

August 16, 2004

In a message dated 8/16/2004 2:53:17 PM Eastern Standard Time,

saltillo@... writes:

> don't think I am explaining this too well..

>

Actually, I think you did it pretty well. And here's a question for you.

The whole Free T3 labs confuse me anyway. My Free T3 is way over the top...over

650...but keeping in mind that some labs say 619 is the upper end. But

here's my question. That lab supposedly measures what is AVAILABLE in the blood

to

be used...but what about what is BEING used. Some of it would have had to be

drawn into the tissues for you. So wouldn't someone taking oral hormone have

totally skewed Free T3 results...that could flucuate wildly depending on when

they took their armour...and what was going on as far as the body converting

for use? Does this make any sense? I guess I'm wondering if there really is

any good way to know your optimal dose other than to get a little hyper and

then drop down the dose.

Sometimes I get so confused.

Cindi

August 16, 2004

In a message dated 8/16/2004 2:54:23 PM Eastern Standard Time,

saltillo@... writes:

> The

> liver has a higher demand for it at night and it is used to restore

> the body and rebuild. You wouldn't think that it is this way, but it

> is. I have read this in numberous places.

>

It sure makes sense to me. I felt that I was leaving my body in a bad state

by not feeding it a little piggy parts to get thru the night.

Cindi

August 16, 2004

> It really sounds to me like your dose is just a tad low,

> Armour tend to have T4 levels on the low end and T3 in the mid to

> upper range in the blood. This is because Armour has more T3 with

> respect to T4 than the human thyroid makes so it changes the

typical

> blood profile a little. What I think happens when the dose is a

> little low is that, like you were thinking, the T3 gets used up

> before your next dose and then there isn't very much T4 there to

> convert to T3. So, you are right that you have run out of T3, but,

I

> think for most people it can be corrected just by adding more

Armour

> and bringing up both T3 and T4. > Tish

Hi Tish,

What a great and thoughtful explanation. My blood tests come out

exactly as you said (at least the one time I had them done), my T3

was in the extreme high normal range, T4 slightly below mid range.

I am confused about the T4, though. My understanding was that the

T4 sort of stores up in your body over time, which is why some

people say to up the dose only every several weeks. Shouldn't I

have T4 already stored in my body if I have been taking this for 3

months?

August 16, 2004

Hi . I have observed that when folks complain about crashing

later in the day, it's simply a sign they are still not on their

optimal dose of Armour. Instead of adding T3, why not try upping it?

By the way, when I used to be on 2 1/4 grain, I surmised it was my

optimal dose since I felt SOO much better than before I started. But

when I read that the optimal minimum dose of Armour used to be 3

grains and higher (before labs came out), I experimented and went up

to 3 grains...1/4 grain at a time. It worked!! This is NOT to say

that everyone needs to be on 3 grains!! But hearing about it simply

made me want to see what a slightly higher dose would do for

me...and voila!

And now that I am up to 3 1/4 grain, I also can surmise the

following: when you are on your optimal dose, you will feel good at

night AND in the morning before you even begin taking your daily

dose.

Janie

> I posted last week on how I was getting the afternoon sleepies as

> Janie calls it and wondered what to do about it. It occured to me

> that I was getting them in between my thyroid doses. I had been

> taking 1 1/4 grains around 7am, and another grain around 2 or 3pm.

>

> I decided to try taking the second dose earlier, so I didn't go to

> the end of the 7 hour cycle for T3. I have been taking it at 12

pm.

> Well, I feel much better during the day, my energy stays constant

> all day, until around 6:30 or 7 pm. Then I seem to have a bit of

a

> crash, and I have noticed that my muscles have started to feel

achy

> at night and I wake up with more aches and it seems to take longer

> for the Armour to kick in in the morning.

August 16, 2004

> Hi . I have observed that when folks complain about crashing

> later in the day, it's simply a sign they are still not on their

> optimal dose of Armour. Instead of adding T3, why not try upping

it?

>

Well I certainly like the idea of having a consistent level all

day. Would you recommend just adding to one of my existing doses,

or adding a third small dose later in the day?

August 16, 2004

> This is why i started taking a 1/2 grain at night...

> cindi

>

Cindi what time do you take your doses, and does the night dose

interfere with your sleep at all?

in MA

August 16, 2004

I am confused about the T4, though. My understanding was that the

> T4 sort of stores up in your body over time,

>

T4 only stores up if you are taking more than you are using up by

converting it to T3 for energy. If your dose is below what you need

or exactly what you need then you cannot store up T4 because you

will be using it up to make T3 as fast as you are taking it. T4

build-up mostly happens with Synthroid and it can go quite high

before problems appear. In order for T4 to build up high with

Armour, your T3 will end up way out of the range and the average

person won't feel good at all because they will be hyper and won't

want to keep it up. It's because the proportion of T3 in armour is

24% and T4 is about 75%, whereas a human thyroid makes 10% or less

T3 and 90% T4. This 90% T4 is what your body mostly uses to make T3

and produce energy. So, people on Armour are actually functioning on

higher levels of T3 than what is normal and a little bit lower T4

than what is normal. But, since many hypos have conversion problems,

this is often a good thing. However some people feel better with a

little Synthroid added to get proportions more like human ones. The

body is very adaptable and usually adapts to the higher T3 in

Armour. But, some people find all Armour a little hard on them.

Anyway, it's a balancing thing with Armour. You have to get the T3 a

little higher than you need for a few hours to get the T4 up high

enough for your body to efficiently convert it when the T3 in Armour

pill is used up. Usually, this leaves the person just below the mid-

line of the range on T4 and a little on the high end of T3 range.

I don't think I am explaining this too well..

Tish

August 16, 2004

I want to add here that in a healthy person, TSH rises in the night

and actually a person needs a little more thyroid in the night. The

liver has a higher demand for it at night and it is used to restore

the body and rebuild. You wouldn't think that it is this way, but it

is. I have read this in numberous places.

Tish

August 16, 2004

In a message dated 8/16/2004 4:51:29 PM Eastern Standard Time,

saltillo@... writes:

> I have been doing reading on thryoid treatment before the TSH test

> and found in old papers that the common way to adjust the dose was

> to in fact go too high and then back down. Back then when Armour was

> the main medicine, they were not concerned about people being a

> little high and found that many people needed to be a little on the

> high end to feel good. It has been written in older texts about well

> adjusted patients being just a little hyper just after their pill

> and then it stabilizes as the hours pass

Wow...this is everything that I have been mulling around in my mind. Thank

you so very much.

Cindi

August 16, 2004

In a message dated 8/16/2004 4:51:29 PM Eastern Standard Time,

saltillo@... writes:

> For some reason, today, we

> think tests are rock solid pictures of what is really happening.

> But, it is not true. It is very complicated.

>

oh - wow again. yes...I just don't see how the blood tests can really tell

how we're feeling...because there are too many other factors to consider...and

a lab test is merely a " snapshot " of that moment in time...not the overall

picture.

Cindi

August 16, 2004

, some folks here have reported problems with taking their

Armour at night, and others sleep like a baby. zzzzzz I take 1/4

grain a bedtime simply for convenience....and do great sleeping.

But, you may not need to take it at night to solve your issues. You

may just need to increase your daily Armour dosage. When you are

taking enough, you have built your T4 to a nice amount to convert to

T3 when needed. Right now, you simply may not be on enough Armour.

Janie )

>

> > This is why i started taking a 1/2 grain at night...

> > cindi

> >

> Cindi what time do you take your doses, and does the night dose

> interfere with your sleep at all?

>

> in MA

August 16, 2004

> Well I certainly like the idea of having a consistent level all

> day. Would you recommend just adding to one of my existing doses,

> or adding a third small dose later in the day?

It's entirely up to you. Some folks do split it more than twice a

day, but I've had complete success taking it twice a day--2/3rd's

around mid-morning, and the other 1/3 around 2 pm.

Lately, I've added 1/4 grain, and I take it at bedtime simply because

it's convenient to have them right by my bed. LOL. But even if I

added that 1/4 grain with my afternoon dose, I'd still be doing great

24 hours a day due to the T4 buildup.

Janie

August 16, 2004

I have found that with my very poor to none conversion I must take divided

dosages or I have horrible slumps. I have also started taking some at or

right before bedtime and find I do sleep much better with it. I am odd in

that I don't feel I convert any T4 at all. I can take it by the jar and not

feel a thing, but Armour & T3 together are beginning to make me feel good

again. I have a question... As I doubt I do any T4 to T3 conversion, is

there any reason I should continue taking T4 at all? Maybe go to straight T3

therapy? The only thing is I know there are other things in Armour that I

wouldn;t get then though, so maybe it;'s best I stay on this.

Artistic Grooming * Hurricane, WV

August 16, 2004

As I doubt I do any T4 to T3 conversion, is

> there any reason I should continue taking T4 at all? Maybe go to

straight T3

> therapy? The only thing is I know there are other things in Armour

that I

> wouldn;t get then though, so maybe it;'s best I stay on this.

>

> Artistic Grooming * Hurricane, WV

It seems to me that although the T3 is most usable on the cellular

level, there must be some reason that the body makes T4, SOME OF

WHICH converts to T3....I don't know all of the particulars, but the

T4 is also needed somewhere along the line.

August 16, 2004

As I doubt I do any T4 to T3 conversion, is

> there any reason I should continue taking T4 at all? Maybe go to

straight T3

> therapy? The only thing is I know there are other things in Armour

that I

> wouldn;t get then though, so maybe it;'s best I stay on this.

>

> Artistic Grooming * Hurricane, WV

It seems to me that although the T3 is most usable on the cellular

level, there must be some reason that the body makes T4, SOME OF

WHICH converts to T3....I don't know all of the particulars, but the

T4 is also needed somewhere along the line.

August 16, 2004

sounds pretty good to me. As a matter of fact, when my ferritin was low, my

conversion regardless of what I took kept my t3 at the low end of the scale. Yet

now that I am on ferrous sulfate, my t3 is at the top and I actually need less

t3 and more t4.