Guest guest Posted November 9, 2000 Report Share Posted November 9, 2000 Yes, Bananas are high in Phenols which can cause the spacy/high effect that you spoke of. Meyer. On Thu, 9 Nov 2000 13:49:26 +0100 " Arno Smit (Sonera) " writes: > Hello, > My 3 yo daughter really likes bananas, but I don`t give them so > often because I noticed little black spots in her stool whenever she > ate them. > Monday I tried banana again and I noticed she was spacy,/ high one > hour after eating the banana. > Does anyone recognize this? > > Philippine, mother of Tijsje (3yo, ASD) > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 9, 2000 Report Share Posted November 9, 2000 Philippine Bananas are high in phenols - Jeff had the same reaction to these and other highly phenolic foods Here is some details on phenols - Ok.. breathe.. I do not have the master list. There are over 200 products that contain phenols. This is the master list I work off of. My son is a very limited eater and EVERYTHING he eats is LOW in sugar (or no sugar,) NO yeast and completely gluten and casein free. These items we eliminated: * food dyes * tomatoes * apples * PEANUTS * Bananas * ORANGES * Cocoa * red grapes * colored fruits * avoid natural flavors or processed foods (my rule, anything with more than 10 ingredients DOES NOT make it in my sons stomach!) You can also get info on phenols from www.feingold.org <http://www.feingold.org> . Well, I haven't seen these things specifically listed on any of the phenol lists that I know of, but they are both " colored fruits " , so I guess they would qualify. Watermelon is red, so that is a definite flag, cantaloupe is orange which is better. Basically, all foods have phenols, just some have more phenols than others, and a child with PST has trouble processing them, so you want to reduce the HIGHLY phenolic foods so the child's body does not get overloaded in trying to process the phenols it is getting anyway. What I would do is remove all the highly phenolic foods, and then you can add back say cantaloupe and see what happens. If your child is okay with it, then try adding back something else. Just not too much fruit in any one day or you will probably see some reactions. KEEP A food journal. Track what your child eats and watch bevaviors (extra hyperness, stimmy outbreaks,) rashes on face / bottom, violent outbreaks, or night wakenings. My son used to laugh at night for an hour (scary!) I removed bananas and these episodes are gone! We replace them with PEARS, MANGOS and do not have a problem. Here is the TECHNICAL DESCRIPTION: Sulphur Transferase Abnormalities Waring (1993), encouraged and supported by O'Reilly (1993) and other parents, has published data which convincingly demonstrates deficiencies in the sulphur- transferase capabilities of people with autism. They have demonstrated also that this inadequacy is the consequence not of an absence of the responsible enzyme (sulphur transferase) but of the sulphate ions which are needed if the sulphation is to be accomplished. If this sulphation process is not functioning satisfactorily there are many possible consequences which may be of relevance in the autistic syndrome. These have been described elsewhere (Waring 1993). It is worth recording that similar deficiencies have been reported in people with migraine, rheumatoid arthritis, jaundice and other allergic conditions all of which are frequently reported as being common in the families of people with autism. I am unaware of any survey which actually demonstrates this and nothing better than anecdotal evidence exists. Clearly, if there is a deficit of available sulphate in the body attempts can be made to replace it. Unfortunately, sulphate ions are not absorbed from the gut so this route is not a possibility. The main source of free sulphate in the body is the amino acid " cysteine " which is obtained from the breakdown of appropriate protein material and it is this stage which may be faulty in people with autism. Some parents have attempted to combat this by feeding their children with abnormally large doses of cysteine in tablet or powder form but, as far as I am aware, the only result is a high concentration of urinary cysteine. Other parents have introduced other sulphur containing amino-acids to the diet and claim these to be beneficial. Unfortunately the claims are difficult if not impossible to assess since those parents experimenting with this intervention are likely to be experimenting simultaneously with many others. Interestingly, the sulphur containing amino-acid " Taurine " which may be given to patients for this purpose, is reported as having an anti-opioid effect (Braverman 1987). Since free sulphate is not absorbed orally, parents have been experimenting with alternative routes. One route which is increasing in popularity, is the percutaneous one. Magnesium Sulphate (Epsom Salts) are placed in the bath water in the hope that the sulphate will enter the body, if not via the back door, via an alternative route. Many parents have claimed benefits from this therapy and some high functioning adults have tried it for themselves. The majority claim positive changes in behaviour but some of the high functioning people have reported increased irritability (and so stopped using this therapy). Any perceived benefits may, of course, be totally unrelated to the sulphate element of the salts. It could be that the Magnesium (which is often supplied as a supplement to people with autism,) is the significant component. The question arises as to whether sulphate ions could enter the body in this way but, if so, it could provide an intellectually satisfying explanation for the long history of the use of spas in the treatment of rheumatic conditions. Sulphur transferase activity is important for many biological reaction in the body and some of these may be of relevance in the aetiology of autism. For example, the system is involved in the breakdown of bilirubin and biliverdin, the breakdown products of haemoglobin which are seen where bruising has occurred. It may be pushing speculation a long way but it is possible that the dark rings so often seen around the eyes of people with autism may be evidence of a lack of activity within this system. This system is also required for the breakdown and removal of phenolic compounds, indeed the tests used for estimation of its activity relies upon the conversion of paracetamol to its sulphate. An inadequately functioning system will also result in abnormal metabolism of some neurotransmitters. In particular, serotonin, (5-HT) metabolism will be affected and the appearance of unusual metabolites (such as the hallucinogen bufotenin) could be predicted. Such an observation has been reported (Himwich 1972) but its significance is uncertain. Other Interfering Foodstuffs As indicated above, an adequately functional sulphur transferase system is a prerequisite for the removal of phenolic compounds from the body. Since the availability of available sulphate ions is finite, the same will apply to the ability of the body to deal with such compounds. Thus when certain foodstuffs with high phenolic content are eaten they will utilise the available sulphur transferase resources of the body and thus exacerbate the problems referred to above. Many parents have observed that apples, oranges and other citrus fruits, chocolate (possibly on account of the phenol flavouring vanillin) and certain other foods will induce severe deterioration in the behaviour of their children with autism. Interestingly, two parents (who must remain anonymous) have contacted me independently and stated that when this situation arises, they have observed that " Cranberry Juice " will markedly reduce or even eliminate these effects. Whether this due to the sulphur content of the juice or some other mechanism or whether the effects are imaginary remains to be determined. Some parents have found that there ate other foodstuffs which can cause problems; in particular they have removed all traces of pigment form the diet of the child ( 1995). Since all of these dietary exclusions tend to be in addition to gluten and casein removal, it is difficult to ascertain precisely which elements of the exclusion are of relevance to any reported improvements. Synthetic Colourings There has been considerable discussion in the media for many years about the involvement of synthetic pigments, in particular tartrazine, in worsening the symptoms of autism. Considerable anecdotal evidence exists for their role in increasing hyperactivity (where autism is not involved). Parental reports suggest that removal of synthetic pigments from the diet have, in the vast majority of cases, made no difference whatsoever. I hope this helps you. By keeping things simple I was able to identify what foods were bothering Jeff and which ones were OK. Keep being Sherlock Holmes! Good luck A (Jeffs Mom) Ackerman " high " on bananas? Hello, My 3 yo daughter really likes bananas, but I don`t give them so often because I noticed little black spots in her stool whenever she ate them. Monday I tried banana again and I noticed she was spacy,/ high one hour after eating the banana. Does anyone recognize this? Philippine, mother of Tijsje (3yo, ASD) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 9, 2000 Report Share Posted November 9, 2000 I'm relatively new to the diet and still trying to figure out if certain things shouldn't be allowed. Reading your post about what you've eliminated makes me wonder what could possibly be left to feed your son. I'd be interested to see your typical meal schedule for a week. It seems like the more I eliminate things, the less there is to offer, but I'm sure I need to be more imaginative. Hopefully you can give me some hints. Thanks EV > Philippine > > Bananas are high in phenols - Jeff had the same reaction to these and other > highly phenolic foods > > Here is some details on phenols - > > Ok.. breathe.. I do not have the master list. There are over 200 products > that contain phenols. This is the master list I work off of. > My son is a very limited eater and EVERYTHING he eats is LOW in sugar (or no > sugar,) NO yeast and completely gluten and casein free. > > These items we eliminated: > > * food dyes > * tomatoes > * apples > * PEANUTS > * Bananas > * ORANGES > * Cocoa > * red grapes > * colored fruits > * avoid natural flavors or processed foods (my rule, anything with > more than 10 ingredients DOES NOT make it in my sons stomach!) > > You can also get info on phenols from www.feingold.org > <http://www.feingold.org> . > > Well, I haven't seen these things specifically listed on any of the phenol > lists that I know of, but they are both " colored fruits " , so I guess they > would qualify. Watermelon is red, so that is a definite flag, cantaloupe is > orange which is better. > > Basically, all foods have phenols, just some have more phenols than others, > and a child with PST has trouble processing them, so you want to reduce the > HIGHLY phenolic foods so the child's body does not get overloaded in trying > to process the phenols it is getting anyway. > > What I would do is remove all the highly phenolic foods, and then you can > add back say cantaloupe and see what happens. If your child is okay with it, > then try adding back something else. Just not too much fruit in any one day > or you will probably see some reactions. > > KEEP A food journal. Track what your child eats and watch bevaviors (extra > hyperness, stimmy outbreaks,) rashes on face / bottom, violent outbreaks, or > night wakenings. My son used to laugh at night for an hour (scary!) I > removed bananas and these episodes are gone! We replace them with PEARS, > MANGOS and do not have a problem. > > Here is the TECHNICAL DESCRIPTION: > > Sulphur Transferase Abnormalities > Waring (1993), encouraged and supported by O'Reilly (1993) and > other parents, has published data which convincingly demonstrates > deficiencies in the sulphur- transferase capabilities of people with autism. > They have demonstrated also that this inadequacy is the consequence not of > an absence of the responsible enzyme (sulphur transferase) but of the > sulphate ions which are needed if the sulphation is to be accomplished. > If this sulphation process is not functioning satisfactorily there > are many possible consequences which may be of relevance in the autistic > syndrome. These have been described elsewhere (Waring 1993). It is worth > recording that similar deficiencies have been reported in people with > migraine, rheumatoid arthritis, jaundice and other allergic conditions all > of which are frequently reported as being common in the families of people > with autism. I am unaware of any survey which actually demonstrates this and > nothing better than anecdotal evidence exists. > Clearly, if there is a deficit of available sulphate in the body > attempts can be made to replace it. Unfortunately, sulphate ions are not > absorbed from the gut so this route is not a possibility. The main source of > free sulphate in the body is the amino acid " cysteine " which is obtained > from the breakdown of appropriate protein material and it is this stage > which may be faulty in people with autism. Some parents have attempted to > combat this by feeding their children with abnormally large doses of > cysteine in tablet or powder form but, as far as I am aware, the only result > is a high concentration of urinary cysteine. Other parents have introduced > other sulphur containing amino-acids to the diet and claim these to be > beneficial. > Unfortunately the claims are difficult if not impossible to assess > since those parents experimenting with this intervention are likely to be > experimenting simultaneously with many others. Interestingly, the sulphur > containing amino-acid " Taurine " which may be given to patients for this > purpose, is reported as having an anti-opioid effect (Braverman 1987). > Since free sulphate is not absorbed orally, parents have been > experimenting with alternative routes. One route which is increasing in > popularity, is the percutaneous one. Magnesium Sulphate (Epsom Salts) are > placed in the bath water in the hope that the sulphate will enter the body, > if not via the back door, via an alternative route. Many parents have > claimed benefits from this therapy and some high functioning adults have > tried it for themselves. The majority claim positive changes in behaviour > but some of the high functioning people have reported increased irritability > (and so stopped using this therapy). Any perceived benefits may, of course, > be totally unrelated to the sulphate element of the salts. It could be that > the Magnesium (which is often supplied as a supplement to people with > autism,) is the significant component. > The question arises as to whether sulphate ions could enter the body > in this way but, if so, it could provide an intellectually satisfying > explanation for the long history of the use of spas in the treatment of > rheumatic conditions. > Sulphur transferase activity is important for many biological > reaction in the body and some of these may be of relevance in the aetiology > of autism. For example, the system is involved in the breakdown of bilirubin > and biliverdin, the breakdown products of haemoglobin which are seen where > bruising has occurred. It may be pushing speculation a long way but it is > possible that the dark rings so often seen around the eyes of people with > autism may be evidence of a lack of activity within this system. This system > is also required for the breakdown and removal of phenolic compounds, indeed > the tests used for estimation of its activity relies upon the conversion of > paracetamol to its sulphate. > An inadequately functioning system will also result in abnormal > metabolism of some neurotransmitters. In particular, serotonin, (5- HT) > metabolism will be affected and the appearance of unusual metabolites (such > as the hallucinogen bufotenin) could be predicted. Such an observation has > been reported (Himwich 1972) but its significance is uncertain. > Other Interfering Foodstuffs > As indicated above, an adequately functional sulphur transferase > system is a prerequisite for the removal of phenolic compounds from the > body. Since the availability of available sulphate ions is finite, the same > will apply to the ability of the body to deal with such compounds. Thus when > certain foodstuffs with high phenolic content are eaten they will utilise > the available sulphur transferase resources of the body and thus exacerbate > the problems referred to above. > Many parents have observed that apples, oranges and other citrus > fruits, chocolate (possibly on account of the phenol flavouring vanillin) > and certain other foods will induce severe deterioration in the behaviour of > their children with autism. Interestingly, two parents (who must remain > anonymous) have contacted me independently and stated that when this > situation arises, they have observed that " Cranberry Juice " will markedly > reduce or even eliminate these effects. Whether this due to the sulphur > content of the juice or some other mechanism or whether the effects are > imaginary remains to be determined. > Some parents have found that there ate other foodstuffs which can > cause problems; in particular they have removed all traces of pigment form > the diet of the child ( 1995). Since all of these dietary exclusions > tend to be in addition to gluten and casein removal, it is difficult to > ascertain precisely which elements of the exclusion are of relevance to any > reported improvements. > Synthetic Colourings > There has been considerable discussion in the media for many years > about the involvement of synthetic pigments, in particular tartrazine, in > worsening the symptoms of autism. Considerable anecdotal evidence exists for > their role in increasing hyperactivity (where autism is not involved). > Parental reports suggest that removal of synthetic pigments from the diet > have, in the vast majority of cases, made no difference whatsoever. > > I hope this helps you. By keeping things simple I was able to identify what > foods were bothering Jeff and which ones were OK. Keep being Sherlock > Holmes! > > Good luck > A (Jeffs Mom) > > > Ackerman > > > > " high " on bananas? > > Hello, > My 3 yo daughter really likes bananas, but I don`t give them > so often because I noticed little black spots in her stool whenever she ate > them. > Monday I tried banana again and I noticed she was spacy,/ > high one hour after eating the banana. > Does anyone recognize this? > > Philippine, mother of Tijsje (3yo, ASD) > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 9, 2000 Report Share Posted November 9, 2000 I have little to add to the very full description of the problems of sulphation which Ackerman posted. However, in the case of bananas there may be some factor other than the phenol/pigment one to be considered. If the sulphation system is not functioning at optimal efficiency, some of the neurotransmitters won't be metabolised in the normal way. Of particular interest, in this case, is serotonin. One of the metabolic pathways involves sulphation and there is soft evidence to suggest that people with autism employ other routes routinely. Bananas are said to contain low levels of neurotransmitter substances especially in the peel and I have heard of folks getting high on banana peels. It may well be that this mechanism is in operation here. I would certainly not rank bananas as highly phenolic but given these sulphation problems (which virtually all our people with autism have) bananas could cause problems. Some kids have problems with bananas but most don't. In most parts of the world, possession of banana skins is not an offence but I am not sure about those countries that have neither a Royal Family nor a President elect. Shattock Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 9, 2000 Report Share Posted November 9, 2000 Whoa here. Evan used to NOT eat bananas. Since he has started the diet, he not only will eat the banana but now chews on the peel until I catch him. I have taken to peeling the banana and taking away the peel and not letting him have it. I wonder if he is getting his highs off bananas since he is not getting off his cheese any more? Betty in Central California > Bananas are said to contain low levels of neurotransmitter substances > especially in the peel and I have heard of folks getting high on banana > peels. It may well be that this mechanism is in operation here. I would > certainly not rank bananas as highly phenolic but given these sulphation > problems (which virtually all our people with autism have) bananas could > cause problems. > > Some kids have problems with bananas but most don't. > Shattock Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 14, 2000 Report Share Posted November 14, 2000 Evan bounces around in a happy mood in the evening. Giggling all over the place. It is not really a maniacal laugh but sometimes it does not make sense. We just used the last bit of apple juice, I quit all tomato so far except for his catsup and I have almost weaned him off that. Peanut butter cookies are our favorite but I guess we will dump them for awhile any way. And I'll pass up the bananas also for awhile. Is there anything wrong with Del Monte fruit cups? He just ate three of them for a bed time snack. I'll bet the peaches are not good for him. As much as he eats, I don't want him to sit around too much but he did wear grandpa out and he had to go to bed. He tires easy since his triple bypass and a bouncing 6 yo can really wear a healthy person out. ;-) I am still not got the corn completely out. Working on the big stuff but it sneaks in everywhere. Betty in Central California ----- Original Message ----- > Betty > > I am sorry to say - 4 mos after starting this diet I had to remove all > phenols. > Jeff used to get this maniacal laugh at night and so I removed bananas, > peanuts, tomatoes and other items and the laughing stopped. > He seems more focused and better in tune with us and learning excelled. (I > know it is these things because if I give Jeff a little bit of them , the > laughing starts again.) > > Good luck > A Jeffs mom Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 14, 2000 Report Share Posted November 14, 2000 Evan bounces around in a happy mood in the evening. Giggling all over the place. It is not really a maniacal laugh but sometimes it does not make sense. We just used the last bit of apple juice, I quit all tomato so far except for his catsup and I have almost weaned him off that. Peanut butter cookies are our favorite but I guess we will dump them for awhile any way. And I'll pass up the bananas also for awhile. Is there anything wrong with Del Monte fruit cups? He just ate three of them for a bed time snack. I'll bet the peaches are not good for him. As much as he eats, I don't want him to sit around too much but he did wear grandpa out and he had to go to bed. He tires easy since his triple bypass and a bouncing 6 yo can really wear a healthy person out. ;-) I am still not got the corn completely out. Working on the big stuff but it sneaks in everywhere. Betty in Central California ----- Original Message ----- > Betty > > I am sorry to say - 4 mos after starting this diet I had to remove all > phenols. > Jeff used to get this maniacal laugh at night and so I removed bananas, > peanuts, tomatoes and other items and the laughing stopped. > He seems more focused and better in tune with us and learning excelled. (I > know it is these things because if I give Jeff a little bit of them , the > laughing starts again.) > > Good luck > A Jeffs mom Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 14, 2000 Report Share Posted November 14, 2000 I do not know if Evan has problems with corn but I am trying to slowly take it out of his diet. And it is very slowly apparently. Pardon me while I scream! I am hoping to have it out by December but at the rate I am going, it will probably be January. Betty in Central California ----- Original Message ----- > DelMonte fruit cups, even if they are in " light " syrup are in CORN syrup. I > think I remember you saying Evan had a problem with corn. gets really > " high " off anything with corn syrup. > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You are posting as a guest. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.