Re: herx question

March 28, 2003

I just wrote about the herx.. in another message just sent it out on this

board...replying to one explaining what my Lyme Doc said and what I read, and

what their printout sheet says.. they have not said the Herx is a result of the

co-infections, i read that in some research literature regarding the treatment

of lymes and the way it travels in the body...how it hides and the way it is a

shape shifter and uses our body to move through it so fast.. the only

explaination why you would not get better on lyme drugs would be if something

would prevent the medication from being affective... which in my understanding

would mean a co-infection, once you get rid of that, with the use of

ceflosporins like Vantin, Cefpodoxime proxetil, is an orally active third

generation cephalosporin. Then you have full shot at getting the priamry

culprit, LYMES.

Now, I am not a doctor but generaly not off target, then again we are dealing

with advanced stages of Lymes, so I might be shaded when puting things together,

but that after studying some of this is what I am coming up with through

reading of scientific research and the protocol the doctors are placing lymes

on...Now again, there is so much controversy about this disease where treatment

comes in, I am trying to make some sort of sense of it all.. what I just jotted

down seems to make allot of sense to me.. but I am not a doctor! And I have not

attempted to try Hyperbaric which I will have no means of obtaining...nor have I

gone the route of natural remedies, since my past trial of them with other

medical issues concerning myself and my sons has failed in the past miserably.

March 29, 2003

<<<<<<He said that I should not have

any more herxes as long as I stay on tetra. Will have it again if I

switch antibiotics. >>>>>>

My understanding of Herxes.........is the body's reaction to die off of the

bacteria. That could be any type of die off.................yeast

overgrowth, lyme bacteria.........etc. It becomes too much for the body to

handle......too many toxins........hence a herx..........flu like

symptoms........mild to severe. All depending on what is happening in your

body. Changing to a new abx could cause a herx too..........that is

actually a good thing. I have found that different abx is a good

thing............worked for me. I found certain lyme symptoms disappeared

with each abx........until there were none.

I believe that different strains are killed off by different abx............

Remember to drink lots of fluids during a herx to help with the potent

toxins from the die off of the bacteria.

Connieknwnj

When our bodies & minds are out of balance...........we suffer!

July 20, 2005

... A herx really does not feel like to flu...more like your disease is

totally out of control and you can't believe your joints could ever hurt

this much!!! Sorry, but that is my feeling. Sleepless nights because your

joints wake you up.....midnight showers under hot water because that is the

only

thing that helps. All this is indicative of a herx. It is also why many

docs say it will not work. It takes months to kick in and doctors are used to

pills working as soon as you take them....certainly not used to giving

patients pills and then having them feel worse!!! If you feel wors after

taking a

med than it obviously does not work is our conventional wisdom.

Unfortunately this treatment does not work that way.

Get yourself something for pain meds and keep plugging away. Minocin can

be taken with most other meds, so if you need something for the first few

months, by all means take it. I used low dose prednisone for the first couple

of months...kept me on my feet and going. Just one choice. Everyone is

different and reacts differently. A friend took Vioxx for awhile knowing it

was

just temporary. Do what you have to but stay on the minocin...it can and

does work. Twice a day is what I went on at first...once in remission I

dropped

back to mon-wed-friday. Martha

July 20, 2005

Just wanted to tell you that I agree and disagree with Rose! Do agree with

her descriptions of the herx at times. At other times, I HAVE felt like I

had the flu. Even had chills to the point of using a heating pad to warm me

up, running fever, aching. Be aware that we are all so different which is a

point that Rose made. Have had both hers and my symptoms. I have never taken

a midnight hot shower, however, I have taken hot evening baths with hydrogen

peroxide and epson salts.

January 29, 2009

Hi Beth!

This all depends on what your disease is and what microbes you have. And also,

if you have any overlapping diseases. I have scleroderma, been on A/P since

2006 and cannot recall ever having a herx. A month is a very short time to test

if A/P works. Micoplasma is a slow growing organism and a slow dying one. It

took about 6 months to reverse my most serious symptoms. Each month, I noticed

I could do more and had less pain. At 18 months, I went into remission. I was

not cured, but was living a full quality of life. I have since experimented with

other protocols, but none as good as I was with A/P only. I am now with an

Infectious Disease doctor who is testing me for overlapping diseases. Most of

us have a few. And will treat me accordingly. This is something, no other doc

has done. You need lots of patience with these immune altering diseases. And

you need a knowledgable doc who understands A/P and knows his germs.

Otherwise it is like pulling the short straws. Take care and good

luck!~~~~~Dolores

From: Beth Fletcher <kbf23@...>

Subject: rheumatic herx question

rheumatic

Date: Thursday, January 29, 2009, 9:09 PM

So, if having a herx is a good sign...is NOT having a herx a BAD sign? I've

been on AP for almost a month and I've not had a herx. I'm taking 100 mg

minocycline (Teva brand, pelleted) along with Flagyl and Nizoral MWF. I'm also

completing a 7 day course of azythromycin tonight.

Does this mean AP may not work for me? Anybody else not herx and still respond

well to ap?

January 29, 2009

Please explain what a herx is?

Mona

rheumatic herx question

So, if having a herx is a good sign...is NOT having a herx a BAD sign? I've

been on AP for almost a month and I've not had a herx. I'm taking 100 mg

minocycline (Teva brand, pelleted) along with Flagyl and Nizoral MWF. I'm also

completing a 7 day course of azythromycin tonight.

Does this mean AP may not work for me? Anybody else not herx and still

respond well to ap?

January 29, 2009

I don't know that I have an official diagnosis. My local rheumatologist that I

used to see first said reactive then later changed to rheumatoid. I don't think

he really knew. Anyways, I'm seeing Dr. S in Chattanooga, so I'm definitely

seeing a very knowledgable doc.

I'm definitely not giving up on AP, just wondering if the no herx is a sign that

it is not working yet.

Thanks, Dolores!

Beth

From: Beth Fletcher <kbf23@...>

Subject: rheumatic herx question

rheumatic

Date: Thursday, January 29, 2009, 9:09 PM

So, if having a herx is a good sign...is NOT having a herx a BAD sign?

I've been on AP for almost a month and I've not had a herx. I'm

taking 100 mg minocycline (Teva brand, pelleted) along with Flagyl and Nizoral

MWF. I'm also completing a 7 day course of azythromycin tonight.

Does this mean AP may not work for me? Anybody else not herx and still

respond well to ap?

January 30, 2009

Dear Mona:

Below is the definition of a 'herx' -- just an abbreviation used in this group.

Hope this helps.

Diane Springob

Herxheimer Reaction

If you are already familiar with the concept of a " Healing Crisis " then you

already know what the Herxheimer Reaction is.

The Jarisch -Herxheimer or Herxheimer reaction was named for the German

dermatologist, Karl Herxheimer (1844-1947).

Dorlands Medical Dictionary defines the Herxheimer reaction as a transient,

short-term, immunological reaction commonly seen following antibiotic treatment

of early and later stage syphilis and other diseases which is manifested by

fever, chills, headache, myalgias (muscle pain), and exacerbations of cutaneous

lesions.

The reaction has been attributed to liberation of endotoxins-like substances or

of antigens (a substance which causes an immune reaction) from the killed or

dying microorganisms.

Simply stated, it is a reaction that occurs when the body is detoxifying and the

released toxins either exacerbate the symptoms being treated or create their own

symptoms such as headaches, body ache, joint pain, sweating, general malaise,

sore throat, nausea and or / flu like symptoms.

The reaction is caused by an immune system reaction to the toxins (endotoxins)

that are released when large amounts of pathogens are being killed off and the

body does not eliminate the toxins quick enough.

________________________________

From: Mona Goldstein <spellers@...>

rheumatic

Sent: Thursday, January 29, 2009 9:57:32 PM

Subject: Re: rheumatic herx question

Please explain what a herx is?

Mona

rheumatic herx question

So, if having a herx is a good sign...is NOT having a herx a BAD sign? I've

been on AP for almost a month and I've not had a herx. I'm taking 100 mg

minocycline (Teva brand, pelleted) along with Flagyl and Nizoral MWF. I'm also

completing a 7 day course of azythromycin tonight.

Does this mean AP may not work for me? Anybody else not herx and still respond

well to ap?

January 30, 2009

Hi Diane, That was a very good explanation! Why is it that not everybody has

this Herxheimer reaction. They say that S/D patients don't react like people

with other Rheumatic diseases on A/P. I know that I never did. I raised this

question a few weeks ago, when I started feeling symptoms again, but the

symptoms were a return of my S/D due to a reduction of the antibiotics. I asked

when is a herx, a herx and when is it a return of the symptoms of the disease.

I don't remember getting a satisfactory answer until my old friend Lynne, told

me that what I described was the disease rearing it;s ugly head. I had switched

from A/P to MP. But then my new doc told me to stop the Benicar as it was what

was making me sick. The very drug that MP said would decrease the

Herxheimer symptoms. That is still a mystery to me. I have been on Minocin

since January 2006. I believe the question the lady asked was, " Has anyone on

A/P not experienced a

herx? And since I never have, I answered her. I think she said, she had just

been on it a short time, like almost a month. When that happened to me, I was

told it would take longer. I waited two years and still no herx. Then they

said it was because I was on Minocin everyday, twice a day for two years. For a

herx to develop, I was told that I had to pulse my minocin. Well, I went on MP

and pulsed ---Phase one, no herx yet, Phase 2, I started feeling a bit crappy.

I thought that might be a herx. But a herx is supposed to be temporary. My

crappiness increased resulting in me discontinuing the Benicar. I will soon

start the 3 antibiotic pulsed with my doctors instruction. So, I am still

anticipating a herx, and then maybe I will know what everyone is talking about.

My doc says, not everybody has a herx. So, I will reiterate the question. Is

not having a herx a good thing or a bad thing? That part is not clear even to

me

after 3 years on antibiotics. Does everybody on A/P herx or are there some

diseases where the patient never herxes. Dolores & Mike

From: Diane Springob <springobd@...>

Subject: Re: rheumatic herx question

rheumatic

Date: Friday, January 30, 2009, 7:42 AM

Dear Mona:

Below is the definition of a 'herx' -- just an abbreviation used in this group.

Hope this helps.

Diane Springob

Herxheimer Reaction

If you are already familiar with the concept of a " Healing Crisis " then you

already know what the Herxheimer Reaction is.

The Jarisch -Herxheimer or Herxheimer reaction was named for the German

dermatologist, Karl Herxheimer (1844-1947).

Dorlands Medical Dictionary defines the Herxheimer reaction as a transient,

short-term, immunological reaction commonly seen following antibiotic treatment

of early and later stage syphilis and other diseases which is manifested by

fever, chills, headache, myalgias (muscle pain), and exacerbations of cutaneous

lesions.

The reaction has been attributed to liberation of endotoxins-like substances or

of antigens (a substance which causes an immune reaction) from the killed or

dying microorganisms.

Simply stated, it is a reaction that occurs when the body is detoxifying and the

released toxins either exacerbate the symptoms being treated or create their own

symptoms such as headaches, body ache, joint pain, sweating, general malaise,

sore throat, nausea and or / flu like symptoms.

The reaction is caused by an immune system reaction to the toxins (endotoxins)

that are released when large amounts of pathogens are being killed off and the

body does not eliminate the toxins quick enough.

____________ _________ _________ __

From: Mona Goldstein <spellersoptonline (DOT) net>

rheumatic@grou ps.com

Sent: Thursday, January 29, 2009 9:57:32 PM

Subject: Re: rheumatic herx question

Please explain what a herx is?

Mona

rheumatic herx question

So, if having a herx is a good sign...is NOT having a herx a BAD sign? I've been

on AP for almost a month and I've not had a herx. I'm taking 100 mg minocycline

(Teva brand, pelleted) along with Flagyl and Nizoral MWF. I'm also completing a

7 day course of azythromycin tonight.

Does this mean AP may not work for me? Anybody else not herx and still respond

well to ap?

January 30, 2009

Beth,

I have had Psoriatic Arthritis for about a year and have been on just

Minocycline and Diclofenac since June. I started at 100mg twice daily

genaric Minocycline and 50mg Diclofenac and had immediate relief and no

Herx. I was on Prednisone when I started the Mino, which had my

inflammation level low. I weaned of the Prednisone in 30 days and have

not had to use any since. My primary care internist in Chattanooga is

writing the script for me.

vinnylid

>

> So, if having a herx is a good sign...is NOT having a herx a BAD

sign? I've been on AP for almost a month and I've not had a herx. I'm

taking 100 mg minocycline (Teva brand, pelleted) along with Flagyl and

Nizoral MWF. I'm also completing a 7 day course of azythromycin

tonight.

>

> Does this mean AP may not work for me? Anybody else not herx and

still respond well to ap?

>

January 30, 2009

Vinnylid,

How can I contact you? Another Chattanooga patient.

rheumatic Re: herx questionVinnylid

Beth,

I have had Psoriatic Arthritis for about a year and have been on just

Minocycline and Diclofenac since June. I started at 100mg twice daily

genaric Minocycline and 50mg Diclofenac and had immediate relief and no

Herx. I was on Prednisone when I started the Mino, which had my

inflammation level low. I weaned of the Prednisone in 30 days and have

not had to use any since. My primary care internist in Chattanooga is

writing the script for me.

vinnylid

>

> So, if having a herx is a good sign...is NOT having a herx a BAD

sign? I've been on AP for almost a month and I've not had a herx. I'm

taking 100 mg minocycline (Teva brand, pelleted) along with Flagyl and

Nizoral MWF. I'm also completing a 7 day course of azythromycin

tonight.

>

> Does this mean AP may not work for me? Anybody else not herx and

still respond well to ap?

>

January 30, 2009

Hi Dolores:

I don't know why some people experience herx reactions and other do not.

Perhaps the answer lies in the explanation of what it is..... " The reaction is

caused by an immune system reaction to the toxins (endotoxins) that are released

when large amounts of pathogens are being killed off and the body does not

eliminate the toxins quick enough. " As the above states, when large amounts of

pathogens are released/build up in one's system, the immune system reacts (or

perhaps over reacts) to attack those toxins by releasing substances that cause

inflammation. This toxin release/body reaction, as you know, is a herx.

However, for those to DO NOT experience a herx, perhaps the toxin release is

small or gradual enough (like a dripping faucet instead of a dam breaking) such

that their bodies CAN eliminate the toxins fast enough to stave off a massive

immune system attack, thereby avoiding the herx reaction. This is simply my

layman's logic. Also, it is possible that liver and kidney health play an

important role in how efficiently one's body eliminates toxins. Again, this is

simply speculation on my part. Someone may want to questions their docs further

on this one. Have a great weekend, everyone.

Diane Springob

________________________________

From: mike rosner <martysfolks2004@...>

rheumatic

Sent: Friday, January 30, 2009 8:11:08 AM