Re: bacillus licheniformis in primal defense

[Guest guest]

Sol,

Bacillus licheniformis is not an ingredient in my Primal Defense. Bacillus

subtilis is the soil based organism. Bacillus licheniformis belongs to the

B. subtilis group of Bacilli. Could it be a byproduct of the process? Maybe

in small amounts. Does it concern me? No, not even if it were a main

ingredient because the amount would be too small to have a negative impact,

and the organism is used for many beneficial things. The only research about

risks I found was in the fermentation factories in huge doses, it was

recommended workers wear masks. Well, Primal Defense the end result and I am

not exposed to anything in the air, though even if I was, the amount the

workers are exposed to would be the equivalent of me taking 1000 bottles a

day, lol. Not very likely.

However, now that you mention bacillus licheniformis, it has many beneficial

uses as even the research you listed shows. For example, in the research

link you gave it says this: " produce proteases and amylases "

Do you know that proteases and amylases are necessary enzymes in our bodies

to digest foods? Most enzyme supplements contain them. Mine do. Just because

something can produce a toxin under certain conditions or amounts, doesn't

mean it will replicate that in same controlled byproducts and in the human

intestinal tract. I still haven't seen any research on that showing Primal

Defense is harmful. Botox is made from botulism..a poison which is a form of

food poisoning, but people inject it into their face cosmetically and if

done right, rarely has side effects. While I personally would never, it

shows how something can be helpful or harmful depending on the controls,

formula, and how it is used. I know people who get headaches who use it too.

Anyone who does organic gardening using compost is familiar with these soil

based organisms. This is what happens in nature. The fermentation and

processes used are what Primal Defense does. Organic food is much better for

us than the pesticide treated foods. I find these mimic what God intended

more than anything made by synthetics in a lab.

Water, while essential for life...is a poison too...if you drink too much it

can kill you. It happened to a woman in a radio contest and I myself, having

huge salt loss issues, came close more than once of doing myself in drinking

too much water thinking I was dehydrated when I had so little salt in my

body I was risking killing myself. More examples...many foods are made from

molds. In most people, this creates no health problems. In others, it could

kill them. Mushrooms (fungi), I tend not to tolerate them, while for some

people they are used for healing. One person's poison can be another

person's cure, and vice versa.

Many of the ingredients in Primal Defense are also in competitors formulas.

The soil based organisms are the ones you said you had concerns on. One,

Bacillus subtilis, is used to treat dysentery, another is a natural yeast. I

could see potential problems in some people with the immune response as well

as high yeast, but those are risks in regular foods, other supplements, etc.

I have yeast issues so if the yeast SOB was an issue, I for one would get a

lot worse but for me it has done the opposite...seems to eat up the Candida

and mycotoxins.

This is what is in my Primal Defense Ultra:

Saccharomyces boulardii

Barley Grass

Oat Grass

Lactobacillus plantarum

bacillus subtilis

lactobacillus paracasei

Bifidobacterium longum

Lactobacillus brevis

bifidobacterium lactis

lactobacillus acidophilus

lactobacillus casei

lactobacillus rhamnosus

lactobacillus salivarius

I am still not reading anything that causes me to have a concern.

Cheri

bacillus licheniformis in primal defense

Bacillus licheniformis is the carcinogenic soil bacteria contained in

primal defense.

Scientific Commons: JB WardPeptidoglycan synthesis in L-phase variants

of Bacillus licheniformis and Bacillus subtilis. ... is a potent

carcinogen in mice and a probable carcinogen, ...

en.scientificcommons.org/j_b_ward - 45k - Cached - Similar pages

Darned if I can find the pertinent article in the list at the above link

though.

Here is a good link to info on pro-and prebiotics and bowel dysbiosis

http://members.shaw.ca/duncancrow/inulin_prebiotic_probiotic.html

bacillus licheniformis info

http://www.ebi.ac.uk/2can/genomes/bacteria/Bacillus_licheniformis.html

http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/articlerender.fcgi?artid=91618

I also found many links claiming b.Licheniformis is safe but I prefer

not to take a chance. Plus this quotes from emails to another list

states my opinion well though I didn't write them:

> The Primal Defense product may have inorganic minerals in it, but

> that pales when compared to the cancer risk presented by bacillus

> licheniformis and/or its juices also in the mix. Primal Defense

> really is NOT a probiotic, but primarily transient soil-based

> bacteria.

> Dunno why someone would use bacteria that are foreign to the human

> frame, much less a potential hazard, when naturally beneficial

> bacteria are also available that do not present the risk.

>

> Disturbing information with regard to the presence of the juice

> of " bacillus licheniformis " - a known cancer bacteria in Primal

> Defense, remains a problem. Many health professionals I respect will

> not recommend Primal Defense, and some point out it doesn't muscle

> test well anyway, if that helps at all.

As Cheri said, we all must make our own decisions. I'm just providing

info so those decisions can be informed by something other than sales

hype.

sol

[Guest guest]

MsSquarepants wrote:

> Sol,

> Bacillus licheniformis is not an ingredient in my Primal Defense. Bacillus

> subtilis is the soil based organism.

According to my reading they are considered to be the same organism.

sol

[Guest guest]

MsSquarepants wrote:

> I am always open to learning

> and modifying what I do if something will work better or could cause more

> harm than good. We all know that with all this experimenting and doctors not

> knowing too much, it really is a crapshoot sometimes...we just try to make

> the most educated decisions possible.

>

>

And it shows how two people with the same information can make totally

different decisions.

sol

[Guest guest]

No. Two separate things. Check the link you sent in the prior email. They

have separate write-ups and links on both that you can read.

Though you are correct that the Primal Defense regular formula has it, the

ultra does not however.

Cheri

Re: bacillus licheniformis in primal defense

MsSquarepants wrote:

> Sol,

> Bacillus licheniformis is not an ingredient in my Primal Defense.

Bacillus

> subtilis is the soil based organism.

According to my reading they are considered to be the same organism.

sol

[Guest guest]

Well, in some of the research I saw the names appear to be used

interchangeably.

There is often more than one name used for the same bacillus. As in

B.coagulans is the same bacteria as L. sporogenes. Go figure. So help

me, I think mfrs use different names for the same thing if one name

becomes associated with negative events or research.

I do not trust their names for organisms nor their labelling in any way

whatsoever.

sol

MsSquarepants wrote:

> No. Two separate things. Check the link you sent in the prior email. They

> have separate write-ups and links on both that you can read.

>

> Though you are correct that the Primal Defense regular formula has it, the

> ultra does not however.

>

>

[Guest guest]

I have noticed that I have felt worse lately when I am taking my probiotics.

Maybe I just feel like ---- but I have been trying to track when I take

something how I feel and it does seem that after I take it with my meal I

feel discomfort in my stomach.

I know this is off track from what you two are speaking of , but it is about

probiotics and I was wondering does that see off to you?

a

-- Re: bacillus licheniformis in primal defense

MsSquarepants wrote:

> Sol,

> Bacillus licheniformis is not an ingredient in my Primal Defense. Bacillus

> subtilis is the soil based organism.

According to my reading they are considered to be the same organism.

sol

[Guest guest]

You can feel worse for a few days to a week when the good bacteria are

killing off the bad bacteria because the bad bacteria release toxins. I had

this only happen one time so I increased my dosage and made sure I kept

doing it. I actually had the same thing happen with pumpkin seeds which is

how I found out I had a severe case of parasites.

Not sure if this is what is going on with you, but it is a possibility.

Taking activated charcoal and lots of water to not get constipated helps

too.

Cheri

Re: bacillus licheniformis in primal defense

I have noticed that I have felt worse lately when I am taking my

probiotics.

Maybe I just feel like ---- but I have been trying to track when I take

something how I feel and it does seem that after I take it with my meal I

feel discomfort in my stomach.

I know this is off track from what you two are speaking of , but it is

about

probiotics and I was wondering does that see off to you?

a

.

[Guest guest]

Thanks Cheri,

It is very hard to tell with the meds I take and now adding certain

supplements. I do know I am getting worse. I really am having a bad time

getting out if bed and then eating a good meal. I am really trying to get in

protein every three hours.

On a separate note, I changed to IM because I did not have outlook. It is

better in that I can color code this group and then have different folders

and colors for friends etc.. but if miss a day with these I am so over

loaded with posts and trying to keep up. I do not know how most of you keep

up with this many posts and some state they feel fatigued as I do although

we all are different.

I just am plugging away and any bit of info .that wil assist in me living

some kind of life again is worth it.

I think after AI do the salivia test I am going start with the HC / w/ o the

results very low mg. Because I have to get to LA and at the rate I am going

I am just not able to get up and about too much.

If the HC will not helo then just for the trip to LA I might take Medrol and

then have to just suck it up when I return and adjust things.

a

-- Re: bacillus licheniformis in primal defense

I have noticed that I have felt worse lately when I am taking my

probiotics.

Maybe I just feel like ---- but I have been trying to track when I take

something how I feel and it does seem that after I take it with my meal I

feel discomfort in my stomach.

I know this is off track from what you two are speaking of , but it is

about

probiotics and I was wondering does that see off to you?

a

..