Re: Frio cooling pouch product evaluation

[Guest guest]

At 07:58 PM 7/21/2005, you wrote:

>I recently ordered a couple of Frio cooling insulin pouches, the ones

>designated for one pen or two vials. What follows is my evaluation of

>this product.

>

>Executive summary: It doesn't do much. It cannot keep insulin at 70

>degrees or below in any reasonable use condition. I am quite

>disappointed....

>

>

>

,

Thanks for the review. I have been very curious about these, but was

hesitant to part with the money.

Rick

[Guest guest]

Walmart has some misc. colored little bags with a handle on top for 1.50

I think it was that would work well I think and things would fit along

with ice packs.

ml

Rick wrote:

>At 07:58 PM 7/21/2005, you wrote:

>

>

>>I recently ordered a couple of Frio cooling insulin pouches, the ones

>>designated for one pen or two vials. What follows is my evaluation of

>>this product.

>>

>>Executive summary: It doesn't do much. It cannot keep insulin at 70

>>degrees or below in any reasonable use condition. I am quite

>>disappointed....

>>

>>

>>

>>

>>

>

>

>,

>

>Thanks for the review. I have been very curious about these, but was

>hesitant to part with the money.

>

>Rick

>

>

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Well...I've used my Frio a couple of times. Admittedly it doesn't get

very hot here in Oregon and the pack doesn't seem to get really very

cold...but many people who live in hot climes who use it think it works

quite nicely. At any rate, I didn't notice my insulin strength

deteriorating at all. And it's a lot easier and more convenient to use

than placing the insulin in a lunchbox with blue ice.

Vicki

Re: Frio cooling pouch product evaluation

> At 07:58 PM 7/21/2005, you wrote:

>>I recently ordered a couple of Frio cooling insulin pouches, the ones

>>designated for one pen or two vials. What follows is my evaluation of

>>this product.

>>

>>Executive summary: It doesn't do much. It cannot keep insulin at 70

>>degrees or below in any reasonable use condition. I am quite

>>disappointed....

>>

>>

>>

>

>

> ,

>

> Thanks for the review. I have been very curious about these, but was

> hesitant to part with the money.

>

> Rick

[Guest guest]

Very interesting, . Thanks for running those tests.

Have you written the Frio people and told them your results? I'd be

interested to hear their response.

Next time I use my Frio I'll refrigerate it after I puff it up, before I

stick my insulin in it.

Traveling with insulin can be problematic. Last year I went to

Washington DC for a week and placed my insulin in the hotel refrigerator

(none in my room). When I retrieved it after the first morning I

noticed that there was evidence of freezing of my food (that was in the

cloth lunchpail I gave them to put in the refrigerator). even though it

hadn't been put in the freezer. After that I just gave them the blue ice

to freeze and kept the insulin in my cloth lunchpail in my room.

Vicki

Frio cooling pouch product evaluation

>I recently ordered a couple of Frio cooling insulin pouches, the ones

> designated for one pen or two vials. What follows is my evaluation of

> this product.

>

> Executive summary: It doesn't do much. It cannot keep insulin at 70

> degrees or below in any reasonable use condition. I am quite

> disappointed.

>

> Visuals

>

> I ordered the bright red version. A unit consists of an outer pouch

> of a corduroy-like material with a velcro closure and an inner pouch

> of a nylon-like material that contains four " tubes " of the water

> absorbent crystals. The sewn-in label has a picture of dipping the

> pouch in water and the moniker " 30 degrees " which I assume is a claim

> to reduce the internal temperature 30 degrees below ambient. The

> price is $21.50 each.

>

> The instructions call for soaking the inner pouch in water for 8

> minutes. I did so. At the end of 8 minutes the crystals had swollen

> to fill the cloth tubes and the water was bright red! A product

> designed to be wet that is not color-fast is not impressive.

>

> The Tests

>

> My tests involved placing an electronic thermometer inside the inner

> pouch and measuring the temperature achieved, along with ambient

> temperature and humidity using a Instruments combo electronic

> thermometer and hygrometer. I then placed the pouch in various

> situations that replicates anticipated use. I allowed the pouch to

> sit in each environment until the internal temperature stabilized.

> Between each test, the inner pouch was soaked in room temperature

> water for the 3 to 4 minutes the instructions recommended.

>

> The first test involved sitting the pouch on the counter in my

> restaurant. The temperature was 71.5 degrees and the relative

> humidity 50%. After about an hour the internal temperature stabilized

> at 65.0 degrees.

>

> My second test involved sitting the pouch outside in direct sunlight,

> such as would be encountered if the pouch were left on the seat of a

> car. The ambient was 117 deg F and 24% humidity. The internal

> temperature stabilized at 99 degrees.

>

> The third test was outdoors in the shade, similar to a picnic

> environment or the interior of a car trunk. The ambient was 99 deg F

> and the humidity was 29%. The interior of the pouch stabilized at

> 90.9 degrees.

>

> Commentary.

>

> The pouch does very little cooling. In neither of the outdoor test

> could the pouch cool insulin enough to keep it safe. The second test

> achieved the best cooling of 18 degrees. It did better than the third

> test because there was a slight breeze during the second one that went

> away before the third test.

>

> This lack of cooling is not surprising, given the small amount of

> water contained in the gel and the slow speed of evaporation. The

> dryer the air the better the cooling, of course, but there aren't many

> places in the US where the RH is below 29% for very long. Those

> places are usually terribly hot!

>

> There is one way the pouch can be useful. That is, if the pouch is

> loaded with water and then refrigerated. The little bit of

> evaporative cooling will slow the internal temperature rise. One

> should be able to get at least a couple of hours of protection that

> way.

>

> The final flaw, IMHO, is the price. Two of these things cost me

> $47.45 delivered to my door. That's a LOT of money for not much

> performance.

>

> Other options

>

> One can achieve the same performance for only a few dollars. Walmart

> sells a neck cooler for under $3 that contains the same crystals. It

> is designed to be soaked with water, then wrapped around your neck for

> heat relief. Buy two of these. Fold each back on itself. Hold them

> together as 4 tubes around the insulin or pen. Wrap a rubber band or

> two to hold them together. Viola! Same thing for under $6 bux.

>

> Bottom line: There is no substitute for real refrigeration. Either

> ice, thermoelectric or actual freon refrigeration. I carry a small

> Vector brand thermoelectric cooler (available at WalMart, <$40) in my

> car for day trips. For portable use, I wrap a flexible Blue Ice

> thingie (WalMart, the kind sealed in a thick poly pouch) around an old

> insulin pen, freeze it to shape, remove the pen, insert a good pen and

> tuck the assembly into a thick vinyl eyeglass case. This will hold

> for the better part of a day and doesn't freeze the pen. For vials, I

> wrap a layer or two of cloth or paper towels around the vial to

> prevent direct contact with the blue ice.

>

> I'm going to improve on this shortly. I bought an el-cheapo soft side

> cooler at Walmart for <$3. I'm going to rip the seams, then sew the

> fabric and insulation into a pouch similar to the eyeglass case. With

> one or two small Blue Ice pouches, this should be good for a whole

> day.

>

> For traveling I carry a 12 volt operated refrigerator/freezer:

>

> http://www.advrv.com/engel/engel_45.htm or the smaller version

> http://www.advrv.com/engel/engel_15.htm

>

> These are actual refrigerators with little tiny compressors that run

> on 12 volts. I can carry a variety of frozen foods and I can freeze my

> Blue Ice packs. Power consumption is a fraction of what a

> thermoelectric cooler uses so there is little impact on the vehicle's

> battery. These are somewhat expensive but check with the guy at

> Advrv. He usually has some refurbs at very good prices. That's how I

> bought my Engel 45.

>

>

>

> PS: This review along with photos will be on my web site in a day or

> two.

> ---

> De Armond

> See my website for my current email address

> http://www.johngsbbq.com

> Cleveland, Occupied TN

>

[Guest guest]

Interesting, indeed.

Tho, I'm starting to wonder if and some of our other

scientifically curious folk have just got waaaaaaaaaaay too much

time on his hands. Ya know, if you do, ... I've got some

things around the house here that need doing/fixing...

SulaBlue

> Very interesting, . Thanks for running those tests.

> >

> >

> >

> > PS: This review along with photos will be on my web site in a

day or

> > two.

> > ---

> > De Armond

> > See my website for my current email address

> > http://www.johngsbbq.com

> > Cleveland, Occupied TN

> >

[Guest guest]

,

I bought a Frio wallet before a recent trip to Alaska. I thought it was

wonderful! I got an extra large, because I needed it for Enbrel, a

bi-weekly injectible medication (for rheumatoid arthritis) that has to

be kept cold. For 13 days, I needed to take four doses. Each dose is

packaged separately and is about 4 1/2 " x 2 1/2 " x 3/4 " , so I had to

disassemble them in order to make them fit into the Frio.

The first day, a Friday, I was on a bus, in airports and planes, then

overnight in Seattle, with no refrigerators available. Then I was on a

bus to Vancouver to board the ship. All of the cabins had fridges, so

no problem there. But after six days on the ship, for six more days, I

was on various buses and trains and in various lodges and hotels, all

lacking refrigerators. I would have been lost without my Frio.

In my situation, I was always in air-conditioned places, so the Frio

didn't have a chance to get hot. It stayed cool to the touch throughout

this second phase of the trip. Granted, I didn't do a scientific

experiment, as you did. I didn't test with a thermometer to see what

the temperature was, but the Frio stayed cool enough for my

requirements. It kept my Enbrel cool enough so that it didn't lose its

effectiveness.

In fact, after I got home, it took several more days for the Frio to

shrink back down to its original size.

Do you think that mine worked better because of its larger size?

I think that with Frios, as with all other things, the motto YMMV is

applicable.

Sue

> I recently ordered a couple of Frio cooling insulin pouches, the ones

> designated for one pen or two vials. What follows is my evaluation of

> this product.

>

> Executive summary: It doesn't do much. It cannot keep insulin at 70

> degrees or below in any reasonable use condition. I am quite

> disappointed.

[Guest guest]

On Thu, 21 Jul 2005 21:29:03 -0700, " whimsy2 "

wrote:

>Very interesting, . Thanks for running those tests.

>Have you written the Frio people and told them your results? I'd be

>interested to hear their response.

No I haven't. My experience in such cases is that the vendor does

some arm-waving, makes some excuse and basically says that I don't

know what I'm doing. I'd be shocked to get any other type of

response.

The physics are simply against this working. With a few hundred grams

to evaporate over a day or so, there just isn't much refrigeration

possible. I could run the numbers if you're interested.

>

>Next time I use my Frio I'll refrigerate it after I puff it up, before I

>stick my insulin in it.

Yes, that will help a lot. If the Frio crystals are fully charged and

the unit is cold, there will be a decent amount of thermal mass at

work there. Sticking the thing inside a pair of heavy socks, one

inside the other and doubled back on themselves would help a lot.

I've been experimenting pretty much constantly since I made that last

post, looking for things that are convenient and that actually work.

One of the best solutions I've come upon so far is the Thermos

ThermoCafe Briefcase Thermos. This is a tall slim, all metal vacuum

thermos that is designed to fit in a briefcase. The mouth opening is

fairly wide. WalMart sells these for about $7.

Here is the trick. Buy some of those long, thin frozen pop things

that you freeze in your home freezer. These are thin enough to fit

down in the thermos. The sugar water mix freezes at below 32 deg.

Freeze 2 or 3 of these, slip them down into the thermos, slide in the

insulin pen or vials and cap it. Tie thread around the top of the

vial and to the pen clip for easy retrieval.

I started a test with this yesterday at noon. I inserted an old pen,

filled with water, and with a thermocouple attached, into the thermos

along with 3 pops. As of 5:17pm, the internal temperature is still at

34 deg F. Looking at the trend, I expect to get two days out of this

before the internal temperature reaches 70 degrees.

This is a nice, small, lightweight thermos that will fit in a

briefcase, pocketbook, butt bag, picnic basket, etc.

On the same shelf as this thermos is another, a short squat all metal

vacuum bottle designed to hold one serving. On the shelf below are

some Thermos brand blue ice cubes, plastic blisters filled with water.

There are about 8 to a sheet and can carefully be cut apart. A couple

of vials of insulin and a couple of these cubes will fit inside this

little thermos. The thermos is about the size of a large coffee cup.

I'll be testing it after I finish with the above one.

>

>Traveling with insulin can be problematic. Last year I went to

>Washington DC for a week and placed my insulin in the hotel refrigerator

>(none in my room). When I retrieved it after the first morning I

>noticed that there was evidence of freezing of my food (that was in the

>cloth lunchpail I gave them to put in the refrigerator). even though it

>hadn't been put in the freezer. After that I just gave them the blue ice

>to freeze and kept the insulin in my cloth lunchpail in my room.

That is the problem when you're where you can't re-freeze things

conveniently. One thing nice about using those pop tubes as ice is

that if they're placed solidly on a cold plate in the freezer, they

freeze in about 15 minutes. You could have them refrozen in a

restaurant freezer while you eat.

I think that the ultimate solution will be a little gadget with both

cold storage via phase change materials (Ice, for instance) and active

refrigeration. Something well insulated enough to hold for a day or

two on the stored cold and the ability to re-freeze itself by just

plugging in. That'll probably involve a thermoelectric cooler.

I'm working on some designs. I'm thinking about something the size of

a small girl's makeup case or maybe a compact camera case.

Comments are always welcome.

---

De Armond

See my website for my current email address

http://www.johngsbbq.com

Cleveland, Occupied TN

[Guest guest]

On Sat, 23 Jul 2005 04:22:22 -0400, Sue

wrote:

>In my situation, I was always in air-conditioned places, so the Frio

>didn't have a chance to get hot. It stayed cool to the touch throughout

>this second phase of the trip. Granted, I didn't do a scientific

>experiment, as you did. I didn't test with a thermometer to see what

>the temperature was, but the Frio stayed cool enough for my

>requirements. It kept my Enbrel cool enough so that it didn't lose its

>effectiveness.

>In fact, after I got home, it took several more days for the Frio to

>shrink back down to its original size.

>

>Do you think that mine worked better because of its larger size?

Too many variables involved to do more than guess. The first thing to

realize is that compounds like this drug don't normally just sit there

until a temperature is reached, whereupon it totally disintegrates.

Rather, the decomposition process varies with temperature. Generally

the relationship is that the reaction rate doubles with every 10degC

(16F) increase in temperature.

So, per the Embril prescribing sheet, if the shelf life is 14 days if

it is kept below 46 degrees, the shelf life would still be 7 days if

it warmed to 62 degrees.

That alone could explain your success, as it should be possible for

the Frio to reduce the temperature 10 deg F from a 70 deg ambient if

the humidity is low.

Second thing to keep in mind is there is a (probably large) safety

margin built into these specs. If the specified shelf life is 14 days

then the actual shelf life most of the time is probably twice that.

Or the shelf life is likely still 14 days even at warmer temperatures.

If I charted your movements in detail from place to place and from

refrigerator to refrigerator, I could probably show that the interior

of the Frio probably never rose high enough to matter, even though I

bet it rose higher than the specified 46 deg.

When you refrigerate the Frio AND its contents, then two different

mechanisms are at work. First is the specific heat of all the

materials. This is the heat needed to raise all the materials from

the refrigerator temperature to the equilibrium temperature. The

second mechanism is phase change, e.g., evaporation. As the materials

warm up, evaporation speed increases until at some point the heat gain

and evaporative losses are equal and the temperature stabilizes

(equilibrates) at some temperature below ambient.

If there is good porous insulation around the Frio (say, a couple of

heavy socks stuffed inside of each other and folded back to make 4

layers) then this equilibration process can take quite some time.

Probably longer than your outdoors duration. The evaporative effect

is a small part. Most is simply the thermal mass of all the water

gell and the drug itself.

I'm going to run just such a test. I'm going to fill an old pen with

water, soak the Frio thoroughly, refrigerate the whole mess, put it in

a sock and see how long it takes to reach 70 degrees. That is, of

course, a lot more work than just wetting the thing and using it.

>

>I think that with Frios, as with all other things, the motto YMMV is

>applicable.

Oh, how I've come to loathe that expression. While we can't grasp all

the variables that affect our bodys' reactions to diabetes, drugs and

so on, we CAN do so with matters of simple physics like this.

---

De Armond

See my website for my current email address

http://www.johngsbbq.com

Cleveland, Occupied TN

[Guest guest]

One thing I would worry about is, that 34 degrees is awfully close to

freezing...and most of us don't have a truly accurate thermometer. Once

you hit 32 degrees your insulin is ruined. And you don't know about

that for sure until it doesn't work.

Vicki, worrywart

Re: Frio cooling pouch product evaluation

> On Thu, 21 Jul 2005 21:29:03 -0700, " whimsy2 "

> wrote:

>

>>Very interesting, . Thanks for running those tests.

>>Have you written the Frio people and told them your results? I'd be

>>interested to hear their response.

>

> No I haven't. My experience in such cases is that the vendor does

> some arm-waving, makes some excuse and basically says that I don't

> know what I'm doing. I'd be shocked to get any other type of

> response.

>

> The physics are simply against this working. With a few hundred grams

> to evaporate over a day or so, there just isn't much refrigeration

> possible. I could run the numbers if you're interested.

>

>>

>>Next time I use my Frio I'll refrigerate it after I puff it up, before

>>I

>>stick my insulin in it.

>

> Yes, that will help a lot. If the Frio crystals are fully charged and

> the unit is cold, there will be a decent amount of thermal mass at

> work there. Sticking the thing inside a pair of heavy socks, one

> inside the other and doubled back on themselves would help a lot.

>

> I've been experimenting pretty much constantly since I made that last

> post, looking for things that are convenient and that actually work.

>

> One of the best solutions I've come upon so far is the Thermos

> ThermoCafe Briefcase Thermos. This is a tall slim, all metal vacuum

> thermos that is designed to fit in a briefcase. The mouth opening is

> fairly wide. WalMart sells these for about $7.

>

> Here is the trick. Buy some of those long, thin frozen pop things

> that you freeze in your home freezer. These are thin enough to fit

> down in the thermos. The sugar water mix freezes at below 32 deg.

> Freeze 2 or 3 of these, slip them down into the thermos, slide in the

> insulin pen or vials and cap it. Tie thread around the top of the

> vial and to the pen clip for easy retrieval.

>

> I started a test with this yesterday at noon. I inserted an old pen,

> filled with water, and with a thermocouple attached, into the thermos

> along with 3 pops. As of 5:17pm, the internal temperature is still at

> 34 deg F. Looking at the trend, I expect to get two days out of this

> before the internal temperature reaches 70 degrees.

>

> This is a nice, small, lightweight thermos that will fit in a

> briefcase, pocketbook, butt bag, picnic basket, etc.

>

> On the same shelf as this thermos is another, a short squat all metal

> vacuum bottle designed to hold one serving. On the shelf below are

> some Thermos brand blue ice cubes, plastic blisters filled with water.

> There are about 8 to a sheet and can carefully be cut apart. A couple

> of vials of insulin and a couple of these cubes will fit inside this

> little thermos. The thermos is about the size of a large coffee cup.

> I'll be testing it after I finish with the above one.

>>

>>Traveling with insulin can be problematic. Last year I went to

>>Washington DC for a week and placed my insulin in the hotel

>>refrigerator

>>(none in my room). When I retrieved it after the first morning I

>>noticed that there was evidence of freezing of my food (that was in

>>the

>>cloth lunchpail I gave them to put in the refrigerator). even though

>>it

>>hadn't been put in the freezer. After that I just gave them the blue

>>ice

>>to freeze and kept the insulin in my cloth lunchpail in my room.

>

> That is the problem when you're where you can't re-freeze things

> conveniently. One thing nice about using those pop tubes as ice is

> that if they're placed solidly on a cold plate in the freezer, they

> freeze in about 15 minutes. You could have them refrozen in a

> restaurant freezer while you eat.

>

> I think that the ultimate solution will be a little gadget with both

> cold storage via phase change materials (Ice, for instance) and active

> refrigeration. Something well insulated enough to hold for a day or

> two on the stored cold and the ability to re-freeze itself by just

> plugging in. That'll probably involve a thermoelectric cooler.

>

> I'm working on some designs. I'm thinking about something the size of

> a small girl's makeup case or maybe a compact camera case.

>

> Comments are always welcome.

>

>

>

> ---

> De Armond

> See my website for my current email address

> http://www.johngsbbq.com

[Guest guest]

On Sat, 23 Jul 2005 15:06:59 -0700, " whimsy2 "

wrote:

>One thing I would worry about is, that 34 degrees is awfully close to

>freezing...and most of us don't have a truly accurate thermometer. Once

>you hit 32 degrees your insulin is ruined. And you don't know about

>that for sure until it doesn't work.

>Vicki, worrywart

It's not the 32 degs that is the problem, it is the solidification

that nukes the insulin. IT has to actually freeze.

It is very, very unlikely to freeze. The latent heat of fusion, the

heat given off as the water turns to ice, is many many times more than

the heat given off as the stuff cools TO 32 deg.

Given the preservatives and other chemicals in the insulin solution,

I'd expect the actual insulin freezing point to be below 32, perhaps

considerably below. I'm going to sacrifice part of bottle one of

these days to see :-) If this is the case then the insulin could

never freeze in the presence of water ice.

Regarding accurate thermometers, I'm using an el-cheapo indoor/outdoor

digital thermometer that I bought at WallyWorld for these experiments.

I've checked a couple of these against my laboratory standard and find

that they match right down to the last decimal point. Pretty amazing,

actually.

For checking near freezing, there is always distilled water ice to use

as a standard. 32.0 degrees.

---

De Armond

See my website for my current email address

http://www.johngsbbq.com

Cleveland, Occupied TN

[Guest guest]

On Fri, 22 Jul 2005 15:01:17 -0000, " SulaBlue "

wrote:

>Interesting, indeed.

>

>Tho, I'm starting to wonder if and some of our other

>scientifically curious folk have just got waaaaaaaaaaay too much

>time on his hands. Ya know, if you do, ... I've got some

>things around the house here that need doing/fixing...

Ya ever hear the one about the Cobbler's kids going barefoot? That's

me. I have so many jobs waiting on round tuits that I may never catch

up. I have my priorities correct, though. Play first, work later.

Science is pure play for me :-)

---

De Armond

See my website for my current email address

http://www.johngsbbq.com

Cleveland, Occupied TN