Re: Re: I went to a seminar with May M.D. yesterday....

[Guest guest]

sue wrote:

> Although my situation is rather unique, other people may also interpret

> that last 'what do I have?' question differently.

Indeed. I thought of " I have an ugly, fat and ruined body and the last

thing it needs is eating when not hungry. "

Regards

s.

[Guest guest]

Hi s.

When you say you have an ugly, fat and ruined body and the last thing you need is to overeat, that is going against what you want to accomplish. The reason why is that it's very harsh and critical and it's not gentle and caring. And I don't think you're going to get where you want to go by "beating yourself with a stick".

I am taking the Beyond Chocolate ecourse, and I think I've also read something like this in the Intuitive Eating book; actually I'm sure I have. It is:

Sophie and Audrey Boss talking about overeating:

"Acknowledge that you do it and that it serves a purpose, that it's helpful in some way. It's a way of taking care of yourself. One of the most important steps in developing a healthy relationship with food and learning to take care of ourselves without turning to it for comfort and reassurance, is to accept that we do it, first and foremost. Without beating ourselves up."Take a moment to complete the following:Overeating helps me to...

I think you will find that most of the authors say to find a way to become more compassionate and gentle about making the changes we want to make, and it does make sense to me.

They say that was step one; learning to not beat yourself up. Here's what they give for step two:

"This may sound strange but the next step to stopping overeating is NOT to stop! Give yourself permission to do it but do it with awareness. Gather some information. Be really curious about the reasons you overeat and how you do it. Rather than telling yourself that it's bad or unhelpful, allow yourself to use food the way you usually do and learn from the experience..."Are there particular triggers?

They say you deal with steps one and two and then step three is the "pause", which is much like Koenig's approach; you sit with the feelings and see how much you can deal with, without eating. In BC (Beyond Chocolate) they say if you can pause a minute and then have to eat, that's ok, don't beat yourself up and just continue with steps one and two, and just work on pausing a bit longer and a bit longer, but be gentle with yourself. I'm sure this is the same exact stuff that I read in Intuitive Eating, Overcoming Overeating, and probably The Rules of Normal Eating.

I think it makes sense. You probably have to appreciate how eating (or not eating if someone is prone to undereating) has served you as a coping mechanism; you probably have come a long way in understanding this already, but it sounds like you need a much greater compassion for yourself about this.

Laurie

To: IntuitiveEating_Support Sent: Wed, December 9, 2009 1:26:13 AMSubject: Re: Re: I went to a seminar with May M.D. yesterday....

sue <penguineahotmail (DOT) com> wrote:> Although my situation is rather unique, other people may also interpret> that last 'what do I have?' question differently. Indeed. I thought of "I have an ugly, fat and ruined body and the lastthing it needs is eating when not hungry."Regardss.

[Guest guest]

Hi Alana,

The book by Byron sounds very interesting. I'm a strong believer in questioning the negative messages and beliefs which we've taken in somewhere along the way. I love this idea of finding three things we like about ourselves; thanks for bringing that up :.)

There's a book I just started reading call "The Religion of Thinness". She makes some good points about challenging societal beliefs which we've previously just taken in without question; she calls it "cultural criticism".

Have a nice day :.)

Laurie

To: IntuitiveEating_Support Sent: Thu, December 10, 2009 11:48:19 AMSubject: Re: I went to a seminar with May M.D. yesterday....

Laurie,I absolutely love everything you have said here. I think a great message for ALL of us that tend to beat ouselves up when we overeat. Really sounds like you are absorbing everything you are reading.I am reading a book that is not IE related, but is self-help related and could very well be applied to the thoughts that "I have an ugly, fat and ruined body". The book is by Byron and is called I Need Your Love-Is That True? I guess she she has a previous book out called Loving What Is. What she talks about is when we have a thought such as "I have an ugly, fat and ruined body" is to ask "is it true? - Yes or No. And then ask how we react when we belive this thought? Then, Who would you be without that thought? And then to find a turn around to your thought. I believe Gillian, our IE moderator for this group has some acronym for how to also question our thoughts - Gillian if you are out there reading this maybe you can

chime in because I can't remember it, but I remember something you used to say about our thoughts.S - I would really be challenging and questioning this thought/belief that you are having. Ask yourself if you find at least 3 things about yourself that you do like. This could open youself up to learning to love and accept your body/self for who and what you are just as you are.Alana

[Guest guest]

lori wrote:

> When you say you have an ugly, fat and ruined body and the last thing you

> need is to overeat, that is going against what you want to accomplish.

> The reason why is that it's very harsh and critical and it's not gentle

> and caring. And I don't think you're going to get where you want to go by

> " beating yourself with a stick " .

Thanks a lot for your answer, Lori. However, I feel a lot of anger right

now and I'm not able to apply your advice right now. I will for sure

save your e-mail though and come back to it later.

Regards

s.

[Guest guest]

ajslinton wrote:

> S - I would really be challenging and questioning this thought/belief that

> you are having. Ask yourself if you find at least 3 things about yourself

> that you do like. This could open youself up to learning to love and

> accept your body/self for who and what you are just as you are.

I think there is a difference between accepting that I have a fat, ugly

and ruined body and deluding myself into something that isn't true.

I'd rather work at accepting that I'm not beautiful, thin and healthy

than trying to convince myself of something that is not true. Not

admitting that I'm fat, not healthy and not beautiful in most people's

eyes seems too much like denial.

Regards

s.

[Guest guest]

ajslinton wrote:

> Has someone else told you you are ugly

Yes.

> Can't you find one thing about yourself that is beautiful?

Of course. But one little cute DETAIL of a picture doesn't make a

beautiful whole picture. You can look at a painting, finding one

beautifully painted flower and yet when you take some steps back you can

think of the whole picture as not being beautiful.

> what about your personality? Maybe you are a

> very kind neighbor?

That's comparing inside and outside. Apples and pears. A human being can

be BOTH ugly-looking AND the loving partner, the gifted artist, the kind

neighbor etc.

> I

> hate to be a bit harsh here,

You're not harsh but I don't understand why it seems so hard to get that

I don't think of it as a sensible thing to do to try to convince myself

of something I'm not. I'm not a talented musician giving concerts, not a

loving mother (because I have not kids) and not a million-dollar-making

baseball star. And for sure nobody would make the sugestion that I try

to convince myself that I am.

So why not rather learn to live life as an ugly person in a beauty- and

youth- and thinness-obsessed world than trying to convince myself that

I'm being something I'm not?

Regards

s.

[Guest guest]

because beauty is very, very subjective and I am not convinced that you really do look the way you see yourself; ugly. What is an ugly appearance, or look? Is it just one that doesn't match the pictures of models and movie actors? Who gets to decide what facial features or body parts are ugly anyway? What makes you decide that you look ugly?

Looks are very subjective and as I said, I'm just so not convinced that you are ugly just because you see yourself that way!

Laurie

To: IntuitiveEating_Support Sent: Sat, December 12, 2009 6:26:57 AMSubject: Re: Re: I went to a seminar with May M.D. yesterday....

ajslinton <ajslintoncomcast (DOT) net> wrote:> Has someone else told you you are uglyYes.> Can't you find one thing about yourself that is beautiful? Of course. But one little cute DETAIL of a picture doesn't make abeautiful whole picture. You can look at a painting, finding onebeautifully painted flower and yet when you take some steps back you canthink of the whole picture as not being beautiful.> what about your personality? Maybe you are a> very kind neighbor? That's comparing inside and outside. Apples and pears. A human being canbe BOTH ugly-looking AND the loving partner, the gifted artist, the kindneighbor etc.> I> hate to be a bit harsh here,You're not harsh but I don't understand why it seems so hard to get thatI

don't think of it as a sensible thing to do to try to convince myselfof something I'm not. I'm not a talented musician giving concerts, not aloving mother (because I have not kids) and not a million-dollar- makingbaseball star. And for sure nobody would make the sugestion that I tryto convince myself that I am.So why not rather learn to live life as an ugly person in a beauty- andyouth- and thinness-obsessed world than trying to convince myself thatI'm being something I'm not?Regardss.

[Guest guest]

Sara,

This is such a beautifully written email and I am totally with you on everything you said!!

Laurie

To: IntuitiveEating_Support Sent: Sat, December 12, 2009 12:50:58 PMSubject: Re: I went to a seminar with May M.D. yesterday....

s.,You remind me so much of a few beloved family members I have. Do you happen to be really stubborn like them, too? I certainly wouldn't want to tell you how to think. If you really are like my family, it wouldn't do me any good anyway . So I'll just talk about my own perspective.I used to be very much like you. The thought of liking myself fat seemed ridiculous. Now I just look at it differently. I guess I really am just starting to understand the "beauty is in the eye of the beholder" saying. And I am the only beholder that counts where my beauty is concerned. I agree that pretending that society is different is just pretending. But I don't have to care what "society" says. There is no rule that says I can't create an environment inside my own head where I'm considered gorgeous. I can move beautifully, do my makeup and hair beautifully, walk beautifully, dress beautifully, and take care of myself beautifully. I can feel

beautiful. If I let society define how I feel about myself, than I'm conceding way too much power to others. I'm abdicating my own perspective to others. Besides, who is this "society" anyway? If I took a picture of a gorgeous celebrity defined as gorgeous by "society" around, I guarantee, I'd find a good chunk of the populace who found flaws with that celebrity, and even found him/her ugly on the whole. There are plenty of guys who I and others consider quite attractive who prefer fat women such as myself. Believe me, I know, cause they ask me out in the grocery store. What if I surrounded myself with friends and loved ones who saw me as beautiful. Then could I legally consider myself beautiful?Don't forget that confidence is a big contributor to beauty. It can really transform the way we and others look at us.My life has only changed for the better since I got fat. I'm finally seeing myself as beautiful, not because I'm closer

to society's ideal, but because I'm finally realizing that I don't have to compare myself to that ideal or to anyone else. I can just like myself, and the sky doesn't fall. Only good things have come of it.And the standards of beauty have changed dramatically through the ages, and from society to society. Do you have to live in a society where you're near the ideal in order to like your body? Would your "ruined" body suddenly be your "gorgeous" body without changing at all?Beauty isn't a fact, it's an opinion. You don't have to convince yourself that you're society's ideal woman, although it's a fun thing to pretend sometimes. But the quality of your life can only improve by convincing yourself to have a beautiful opinion of yourself, inside and out. Good luck,Sara> > I> > hate to be a bit harsh here,> > You're not harsh but I don't understand why it seems so hard to get that> I

don't think of it as a sensible thing to do to try to convince myself> of something I'm not. I'm not a talented musician giving concerts, not a> loving mother (because I have not kids) and not a million-dollar- making> baseball star. And for sure nobody would make the sugestion that I try> to convince myself that I am.> > So why not rather learn to live life as an ugly person in a beauty- and> youth- and thinness-obsessed world than trying to convince myself that> I'm being something I'm not?> > Regards> s.>

[Guest guest]

reflectionmommy wrote:

> The thought of liking myself fat seemed

> ridiculous.

I think I am really not able to bring across my point. :-/

Ok, last try, then I'm out: I don't need to convince myself that I'm

beautiful to like myself. Ugly things can be as loveable as beautiful

things.

That I think something is ugly or that being fat is ugly or whatever is

ugly doesn't automatically mean it's something that isn't loveable.

Regards

s.

[Guest guest]

J W ELLER wrote:

> " Not admitting that I'm fat, not healthy and not beautiful in most

> people's eyes seems too much like denial. " s., sounds to me like you are

> a bit depressed.

What makes you think so? I don't think that not sharing the popular view

of " we're all beautiful " makes me depressed. :-)

Regards

s.

[Guest guest]

Certainly no offense intended, but it was the tone of your post and my interpretation, S. Sorry, but it sounded like a bit of self-loathing! I could be and maybe am wrong! But hey, honey, I ain't beautiful either or thin, certainly not by societal standards! I'm 59 years old and bear the markings of years of abuse with yo-yo dieting, not to mention just the ordinary signs of aging. Not only that, I've got scars on my face from being bitten by a dog when I was younger. And have HBP! But in my "old" age, I've realized that I'm all I've got and am starting to finally accept and love myself just as I am, scars, sags, and all. I'm sure that people have thought me ugly and undesirable, but you know I really don't care anymore! I'm not going to judge myself by any

other standards but my own!! I'm a good wife, daughter-in-law, lovable and loyal friend, and was good dog mom -- and I think that makes me beautiful and special in my way!

Best wishes,

Jeanne

[Guest guest]

J W ELLER wrote:

> But in my " old "

> age, I've realized that I'm all I've got and am starting to finally accept

> and love myself just as I am, scars, sags, and all. I'm sure that people

> have thought me ugly and undesirable, but you know I really don't care

> anymore! I'm not going to judge myself by any other standards but my

> own!! I'm a good wife, daughter-in-law, lovable and loyal friend, and

> was good dog mom -- and I think that makes me beautiful and special in my

> way!

I think that's very good. :-)

Regards

s.

[Guest guest]

Hi s.,

Well I've thought a lot about "ugly" and "beautiful".

My first thought is that we are all, every one of us, aging and none of us will retain a youthful appearance.

But we are so much more than our bodies and our looks; we can be amazing, beautiful people based on who we are and how we treat others. So your point that we can be lovable regardless of outer appearance is very important and of course very true. It's one of the most important truths in this life, I think.

Of course there's too much focus, in our society, upon outer appearance; it's pretty much a shallow societal norm to emphasis the outer packaging over the complexities of our personality and spiritual being.

The question is are you comfortable in your own body, because that matters more than debates about what's ugly and not ugly?

Laurie

[Guest guest]

I meant to add that what I mean by comfortable is are there things your body does for you which you can appreciate right now?

I mean we can appreciate our bodies without thinking they're gorgeous or perfectly healthy.

Laurie

To: IntuitiveEating_Support Sent: Sat, December 12, 2009 5:51:52 PMSubject: Re: Re: I went to a seminar with May M.D. yesterday....

Hi s.,

Well I've thought a lot about "ugly" and "beautiful".

My first thought is that we are all, every one of us, aging and none of us will retain a youthful appearance.

But we are so much more than our bodies and our looks; we can be amazing, beautiful people based on who we are and how we treat others. So your point that we can be lovable regardless of outer appearance is very important and of course very true. It's one of the most important truths in this life, I think.

Of course there's too much focus, in our society, upon outer appearance; it's pretty much a shallow societal norm to emphasis the outer packaging over the complexities of our personality and spiritual being.

The question is are you comfortable in your own body, because that matters more than debates about what's ugly and not ugly?

Laurie

[Guest guest]

Feeling ugly is a negative emotion, so it seems to me to feel chronically ugly would be harmful to self. How can someone feel ugly most of the time and not have it bring them down?

I wonder if a person doesn't feel ugly but has had others perceive him/her as ugly if this means they really are? I mean I don't think it does. Doesn't it mean those people just haven't questioned the narrow definition of beauty?

I actually looked up images of "ugly" people on-line, not to be mean, believe me, but just to see who thought themself(ves) ugly, and I didn't think they were ugly.

When I was young I thought I was "fat and ugly"; I could never say fat without adding "and ugly". I think if you would have told me I wasn't ugly back then, I would never have believed you. But now, I am "fat and beautiful". I guess the difference came when I questioned the status quo.

Yes, I don't blame you for thinking a lot about this because I have been also; it's a hard one to let go :.) I just can't say I've seen an "ugly" person in my travels for a very long time, if ever. I had a friend who was not ugly at all but he did have a very, very obvious overbite; not ugly, but not within the societal norm for teeth. But then I figured, why judge him by a narrow standard like that? I don't have to be a sheep and follow the herd on this one.

I had a friend in H.S. who was about 300Lb and I never thought she was ugly at all..I was so young then that I didn't know to question the norm, but I knew her and she was a wonderful person, and I never saw "ugly" when I looked at her, and in hind sight her body was very big and yet very proportional and now I would say she had a beautiful large full-figured body. The only thing I worried about, for her, were the H.S. kids who could be so mean about size.

Laurie

To: IntuitiveEating_Support Sent: Sat, December 12, 2009 7:45:42 PMSubject: Re: I went to a seminar with May M.D. yesterday....

You know this thread really does make you think, doesn't it? I've been thinking about the difference between being ugly as defined by someone else, or society in general, and feeling ugly. I think feeling ugly is an emotion, and seemingly a negative one. I can definitely wrap my head around the idea of acknowledging that others may find someone ugly, but that the internal feeling is one of acceptance, and love. But to me feeling ugly is different than being ugly in the eyes of others. Feeling ugly just doesn't seem healthy.Am I making any sense?Oh, and I'm definitely not trying to argue here, I'm just sort of exploring these ideas. :)Sara

[Guest guest]

lori wrote:

> I mean we can appreciate our bodies without thinking they're gorgeous or

> perfectly healthy.

At the moment there seems to be a big disagreement between mind and

body. Of course my body carries me through life and through the days but

it feels like my body doesn't do this voluntary. I need to drag myself

out of bed every day, I feel tired and sick a lot of the time. My hip

still hurts (better though but the pain is not gone) and even yoga seems

too exhausting sometimes.

Regards

s

[Guest guest]

lori wrote:

> The question is are you comfortable in your own body, because that matters

> more than debates about what's ugly and not ugly?

Definitely not. I have too many health issues to feel comfortable in my

body.

Regards

s.

[Guest guest]

reflectionmommy wrote:

> I can definitely wrap my head

> around the idea of acknowledging that others may find someone ugly, but

> that the internal feeling is one of acceptance, and love. But to me

> feeling ugly is different than being ugly in the eyes of others. Feeling

> ugly just doesn't seem healthy.

It's an interesting thought. I turned that over in my head a few times

already. It doesn't seem healthy, yes, but WHY? What's so bad about

being ugly? And being viewed as ugly and feeling ugly would be a match

after all. Like being viewed as a talented artist and feeling like a

talented artist.

I noticed that people don't seem to have a problem with positive

feedback and positive feelings matching (who would?) but not with

negative feedback and negative feelings matching.

I think that " feeling ugly " is some problem and might be not healthy but

it makes me think why. Maybe because " being beautiful " is somehow seen

as something vital in our society?

Regards

s.

[Guest guest]

Hi s.,

I defintely don't mean to belabor the point. You have the right to view yourself however you want to. And you do make excellent points about society's expectation that everyone should be or should want to be beautiful and I'm sure it's right to question that ridiculous idea.

But what I am still not understanding is what yardstick you are using to make your determination about being ugly.

Because if it's "fat" you probably know as well as I that there were so many times historically when fat was considered, not just ok, but beautiful. So are you talking about something other than "fat"?

What I'm getting at is this; I don't want to insult you or anything, but beauty and ugly are very subjective aren't they?

It may be quite possible that if I looked at you I would not see someone who looks ugly to me.

What do you think; do you guess I'd see you differently than you see yourself?

Laurie

[Guest guest]

jain_daugh wrote:

> Perhaps thinking in terms of unattractive instead of ugly could

> help make this clear? Ugly seems so judged, put upon, while unattractive

> may go to the core of the concept - not being what others find to be of

> attraction for them? That way the reason lies with the OTHER people, not

> within one's self - beyond that person understanding if such a condition

> or state of being is something they can and will chose to change.

Interesting. The word " unattractive " has something I don't like at all.

I have to think about that.

Regards

s.

[Guest guest]

lori wrote:

> But what I am still not understanding is what yardstick you are using to

> make your determination about being ugly.

The people I'm around all day would be enough to serve as that

" yardstick " .

> Because if it's " fat " you probably know as well as I that there were so

> many times historically when fat was considered, not just ok, but

> beautiful. So are you talking about something other than " fat " ?

Not to be offensive, but I have to admit being fat is a huge factor. I

know fat people that are very good looking (but can't help to think that

they would be looking even better if they would lose some weight) but

I'm not one of them.

> What I'm getting at is this; I don't want to insult you or anything, but

> beauty and ugly are very subjective aren't they?

They are and that is why it might be that the opinion of another one

might not matter or in other words: if someone thinks I'm attractive or

beautiful or whatever I can still of myself as the total opposite

because my understanding of " beauty " is different.

> What do you think; do you guess I'd see you differently than you see yourself?

I don't know because I only can know for sure if you actually HAVE seen

me.

Regards

s.

[Guest guest]

Makes so much sense! If I'm ugly I'm owning that and it's an idea within me that hurts me, but if I say, to some people I am unattractive, then it's just to those people, and I don't have to own it within myself.

Katcha this is a very helpful and insightful idea.

Laurie

To: IntuitiveEating_Support Sent: Sun, December 20, 2009 11:06:12 AMSubject: Re: I went to a seminar with May M.D. yesterday....

Its seems to me that 'ugly' is a negative concept and to apply that to one's self could result in a very unsupportive, if not harmful, thing to do to one's self. That could be why it could create ill health as one internalizes the 'label'? Certainly how one appears to others is not related the abilities and nature of that person! But choosing to incorporate the qualities that such a label implies has to affect that person. Perhaps thinking in terms of unattractive instead of ugly could help make this clear? Ugly seems so judged, put upon, while unattractive may go to the core of the concept - not being what others find to be of attraction for them? That way the reason lies with the OTHER people, not within one's self - beyond that person understanding if such a condition or state of being is something they can and will chose to change.BEST wishes for you - KatchaIEing since March

2007

[Guest guest]

>The people I'm around all day would be enough to serve as that"yardstick".

But are these people biased from their own predjudice against fat? Predjudice against fat is a relatively new phenomena; it was thought beautiful for a very long time.

Do these people really tell you things outright or are you assuming what they think?

And you are right, how could you know what I'd think if I haven't seen you?

I really think i've probably gone on too long with this one because I don't want to be pushy or anything. So I understand if you tell me to drop it, and i would.

I just hope you're having a decent day today.

Laurie

[Guest guest]

lori wrote:

> But are these people biased from their own predjudice against fat?

> Predjudice against fat is a relatively new phenomena; it was thought

> beautiful for a very long time.

Of course they are. We all are. Who isn't who has grown up in our

culture? We're all biased in some way.

> Do these people really tell you things outright or are you assuming what

> they think?

I just need to look at them to feel absolutely inferior if I let that

thoughts run wild in my brain.

Regards

s.

[Guest guest]

>I just need to look at them to feel absolutely inferior if I let thatthoughts run wild in my brain

I know it's again easier said than done, but they don't have the right to impose judgments on you and I sense that you don't let their thoughts run through your brain? I would say definitely you're right not to take in predjudiced thoughts from those who are thinking them; I guess we have to filter out the junk sometimes. It's a challenge to not let it in and an equal challenge to realize that others don't have the power to "make" us feel bad or inferior if we don't let them. Sure it's a challenge to not let some people cross our boundaries this way, but I think we can learn to guard our boundaries against harmful stuff.

Laurie

..